Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Topic: Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please! (Read 2476 times) previous topic - next topic

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

June 20, 2006, 04:21:31 PM

Ok, let me take this one slowly, and explain everything that has happened up to this point. About 1 month ago, I was having problems starting the car. When I tried to start it, the engine wouldn't even turn over, and eventually when I turned the key all that I could hear was a clicking noise and nothing moved at all. So, I looked at the battery which was many years old and decided I needed to get a new one. I did that and presto! The car started up fine. For a few days. Then 3-4 days later, the same problem started happening. Car was slow starting, then it wouldn't even turn over, the same thing. So, my guess was that it was the Alternator. So, on 6/7 I bought a brand new Alternator and put it in. The problem went away. So, everything was fine...right?

Well, not exactly. About 1 week ago, I was driving home from work and I started smelling smoke. I pulled over and poped the hood to see the Alternator was on fire. Great. I got a jump home and the next morning took the chared thing to Autozone and got a replacement. The strange thing is it was almost as if the fire started inside the Alternator. The guy in the store thought it might have been a bad output connector, but when I told him I used the New one included in the kit, he didn't know what could have started it.

I should mention that after getting this second alternator, just to be sure the Battery was getting the charge, I ran a Wire directly from the Output connector on the Alternator, right to the positive terminal for the battery.

2 days go by and again, the same starting problem. At this point, the only thing I could think was that on the night the 1st Alternator caught fire, I drove the car home (15-20 miles) and it was running off the battery....thus drained it. Of course, there are problems with this theory, but it was the only thing I could think of. So, that day I went the Wal-Mart and got yet another battery. (This was about 4 days ago).

Ok, so everything was fine. New Alternator (2nd) and new Battery (2nd). Until today.

I drove around 20 miles today and stopped to get some gas. When I got back in my car to go, I noticed the engine was slow starting up. The same kind of slow when the Battery was going south. I drove it straight home, and parked it. I attempted to restart her, but the same slow turning but no starting happened. After about 7 minutes, I went back out and attempted to start the car again, and it came on. (This also happened when I was experiencing the same problems before. I would die. Not be startable, but then overnight, the battery would seemingly re-charge itself!)

So, now I am stuck wondering what is wrong with my car? 2 new batteries and alternators and still the same problem. Something is draining the battery and I don't know what. Again, I already ran a bypass wire from the Alternator to the Battery just to make sure it was getting the charge.

At this point, I don't know what's causing the problem. I know there is a white wire sticking out of the Output connector on the Alternator that's not connected to anything, but when I bought the car, that wire was sticking out on the old Connector in the same way, but I didn't have any of these problems.

Is it possible for there to be some short in the Air Compressor that could be doing this? Does that little White wire supposed to hook up to something?

Please help me. I'm at my wits end, and I honestly don't know what's wrong.

Here is exactly what I see:

(You can clearly see the bypass wire I set up)

(This white wire I'm talking about is on the right side of the Connector)

(I've had this Black connector since I bought the car. I don't know if that Black wire on the right serves any purpose, but it's always been cut off since I've owned this machine)

(I have no idea what purpose that blue wire coming out of the Positive Battery Cable is for, but I thought I would take a picture of it too just in case)

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #1 – June 20, 2006, 11:58:20 PM

Im no expert on this but what condition is the wires running from the battery? Are they corroded? Ive had bad cables give me that clicking sound. Check the wires going to battery and to starter. Ive had a starter go bad and would turn over slowly like the battery was bad. Replaced starter and car would start right up quickly. Also Im curious if the starter solenod is going bad...But all my money is on a corroded or loose cable to starter or bad starter. When car is wanting to start slow check battery with a volt ohm meter and see how much juice the battery has while car is not running and then once it is running.

Im sure others that are much wiser about this problem will post shortly with opinions.

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #2 – June 21, 2006, 02:52:19 AM

hummm white wire eh?
you may have found your problem,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The W/BK wire #4 on the regulator part of the drawing below...:D

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #3 – June 21, 2006, 08:13:12 AM

Quote

The W/BK wire #4 on the regulator part of the drawing below...

Would that be the drawing that says "3.8 Engines" up in the corner? :(

My diagram shows:
.

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #4 – June 21, 2006, 10:41:40 AM

ah yes,, you are right.

the 2.3 is showing the the white termination as not used.,,,

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #5 – June 21, 2006, 11:13:42 AM

Hmmm...BTDT many times. The hard cranking/starting/clicking situation is directly related to low battery voltage. So you have to keep an eye on that, first thing. Get yourself a decent digital multimeter or voltmeter and check the voltage at the battery, with the car off (optimal is 12.0v or above). Then start the car and check at the terminals with the car running. If you're not seeing between 13-14 volts at idle then either the alternator or the voltage regulator isn't working properly (we're going to leave the battery out of the picture here for now, so long at it has a full charge).

Now...since the voltage regulator on a TC is separate I would normally be inclined to recommend further testing on it. But I have to ask: where did you get the alternator(s) from? Because I've had exactly 4 different 130-amp alternators in the convertible in the last year alone. Two of them were bad right out of the box. That happens a lot with remanufactured alternators...and I thought going with Pep Boys was better than maybe AZ or Advance. Turns out they all pretty much have the same issues with remans. About the only company I'd trust now is NAPA.

So what I'm saying is, it could still be a faulty alternator even though it is "new". It may not have enough strength to produce an acceptible electrical field, thereby not giving the voltage regulator enough juice to moderate, thereby not giving enough voltage to maintain the battery properly.

However...if you have it tested and the alternator is okay, then you'd have to look at the voltage regulator for the fault.

This is a problem that will make you pull your hair out. I am still trying to track down an electrical gremlin in the convertible that very slowly drains the battery over a one-month period. To do that, I have to start pulling fuses one by one (hence the reason I haven't started looking yet). My solution? Disconnect the battery.

Anyway, let me know if any of that helps. Start with the basics, work from there.

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #6 – June 21, 2006, 12:58:05 PM

There is power getting from the Alternator to the battery. I did all of the checking with the meter earlier and everything checked out, however I will double check it again just to be sure.

The Regulator is built onto the Alternator. It too is new.

The Alternator I bought from Autozone is rated at 75amps, as are all the other ones I have seen for the Turbo Coupe.

I want to mention that either this is a coincidence or not, but this problem started shortly after I installed a used Air Conditioning Compressor (Which I purchased from a member on this board). I don't know how that could be causing my current problem, but I figured I would mention it.

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #7 – June 21, 2006, 03:49:16 PM

Ok guys, you'll like this one. I go to autozone and want to have my alternator checked to see if it's charging the battery. They bring out there portable machine and test it. They tell me it's only putting out 12.6 volts and it should be around 13-14 to charge the battery. Then, they tell me I could pull it out, they would test it in their machine inside and if it doesn't work, they would replace it.

So, in the 100+ degree weather, I remove the Scorching hot alternator and take it inside Autozone. They place it in this incubator looking device and run it through a test. Guess what? The machine said the Alternator was fine. The did it again. Same result. Alternator working great. I asked about why their portable machine said it wasn't putting out enough, and they told me "results may varry when hooked up to the car". So, I asked if I could have a replacement. They said "Well you see son, because the machine said nothing was wrong with it, we technically cannot replace it under the warranty conditions".

[COLOR="Red"]
UPDATE:[/COLOR] Also, VERY IMPORTANT, I checked the volts coming from the Alternator earlier today. They were reading around 10v. Way too low. When I took it into Autozone, their Portable machine said it was reading at 12.6v, again too low. However, their big machine inside the store said it was working fine (but I was given no voltage readings). Then, when I get home just now, I turn the car off and turn it back on. It restarts on it's own. I check the voltage at the battery and alternator and both read about 13.5-14v. However, when I turn the Air Conditioning on, the volts drop very slightly, and then with the Lights on, the volts drop all the way to 11v. What does this mean?

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #8 – June 21, 2006, 06:41:10 PM

easy one there the regulator stinks need new alt

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #9 – June 21, 2006, 07:06:29 PM

That means that the alternator is charging, but not charging enough to compensate for the power you're using. A dead phase or bad diode could cause this. So could a bad or slow regulator, or an incorrectly wired regulator.

It is perfectly reasonable for an alternator to test bad in a car and good on a bench. The regulator in your alternator relies on certain inputs from the vehicle to "sense" the battery voltage, as well as to turn the alternator off and on with the key. If the ignition input is bad, for example, the alternator will not turn on, so it won't charge. If the "sense" circuit is not getting the correct signal the alternator could undercharge or overcharge the battery. On the test bench the alternator is getting all the correct signals, so it will test OK.

Now, in your car, you have two plugs on the alternator. One is from the stator and has the two large black/orange wires and a small white wire with black stripe. The two large wires go directly to the battery (or to the starter solenoid). The white/black wire is not used.

On the other plug (the regulator plug) you will have three wires. Printed either on the plug itself, on the regulator, or on the alternator body itself, you will see three letters: "I", "A", and "S". These letters are very important, more important than wire colors becase your plug may not be original (or as common with Fords, they may have changed the wire colors). The wire that corresponds with "A" must have battery voltage (this is the sensing wire). The wire that corresponds with "I" must have battery voltage WHEN THE IGNITION IS ON. This is the wire that turns the alternator on and off. The wire that corresponds with "S" is simply a shield wire (judging by jcassity's diagram), likely to reduce RF interference from the spark system.

Make sure your alternator's connections are all meeting the criteria above. If they are not, repair as necessary. If they are, take it back where you bought it and beat the clerk with it :p

One other possibility is a "flying short". I had this problem with the last 3G I had on the car, and it drove me crazy trying to diagnose it. What happened was the brushes would burn up (literally), so I'd replace 'em. I'd bench test the alt and all would be fine, but a week later the brushes would burn up again. This went on for weeks (I could do an alternator swap now with my eyes closed).
I completely disassembled the alternator and tested each component. Everything tested fine. Then the alternator guru at my shop suggested the "flying short" theory: The rotor was expanding at high RPM, causing it to short out. It would burn the brushes, then when RPM went back down, the short would open. Since the test bench only spins the alt at about 2000 RPM it would not short out there. To verify this we "pulley'd" the test bench to spin the alt much faster. We spun that sucker up and sure as there's shiznit in a cat it charged fine until it hit a certain RPM, then stopped charging. When the RPM's came back down it didn't start charging again, so we opened 'er up and the brushes were burned. I replaced the rotor and all was fine for two years :D

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #10 – June 21, 2006, 10:48:26 PM

I know these guys are smarter, and are giving great advice, but like Weasle said. How are your battery cables? Mine were severly corroded, and I replaced them and it worked alright. just my 2 cents.

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #11 – June 21, 2006, 10:51:46 PM

The Metal Ring that physically goes around the post is chipped somewhat, but not "corroded". Granted, I haven't changed that cable since I've had the car, but I don't think it's in that bad of a condition. What's frustrating is this problem didn't start until about a month ago. Why only then?

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #12 – June 22, 2006, 11:46:54 AM

Thunderchicken, this graph is in direct response to your post. I ran a bunch of tests off the regulator plug, and here are the results. I should mention before I post this graph, that the wire coming out of the connector "I" was cut. So, obviously I was unable to achieve any readings from it.

Well, I think I know what you guys are going to say....connect the "I" wire, but I should mention that since I've owned this car, that wire has always been cut off, and I never encountered the problems I'm having now before.

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #13 – June 22, 2006, 12:26:00 PM

Quote from: ThunderChicken

The wire that corresponds with "I" must have battery voltage WHEN THE IGNITION IS ON. This is the wire that turns the alternator on and off.

It can't hurt to try to connect it, can it?

Major Electrical Problem, Please Help Me...please!

Reply #14 – June 22, 2006, 02:22:52 PM

Well here's the thing. If that black wire really is an excitor wire, why am I reading an output from the alternator? If it wasn't working, wouldn't I not read anything on the volt meter? And also, that wire's been cut since I've had the car, but nothing like this happened when I got it.

Also, if I do need to hook up that Black wire for some reason, where does it go? I know it's not the battery...

[COLOR="Red"]UPDATE![/COLOR] Ok, I just went outside and did some more tests. First I checked the Alternator output which was around 13v. I then jumped that "I" wire directly to hot and checked the Alternator output again. No change. Finally to be sure, I disconnected the Alternator, and checked it's output directly from the two plugs coming out of it. It was around 35v (Which also seemed kinda strange due to the fact that all I did was take off the stator connector and the volts spiked.....but anyway...) I ran a wire from that black "I" wire directly to 12v and again checked the output. It was the same. Now, I know you guys are saying that black wire tells the alternator to turn on and off, but from what I just did, I find that hard to believe.

BTW, now that I think about it, how is it even possible that I was reading 13v from the wires coming out of the Alternator, but when I took a reading directly from the terminals coming out of the Alternator, I got a reading of 35v?