Toyota sucks Reply #45 – January 02, 2006, 12:55:35 PM Unless American industry wises up, I'm afraid it will collapse before it gets better. You know what Mexico's second biggest source of income is? They get $18 billion every year from illegal immigrants working in the US and sending money back to Mexico. You know why those guys can find jobs here so easily? Because they work hard and for less money than what an American thinks he or she is worth. It's like that that brings down economies. If the US does not watch herself, China will be bigger and more influential in the global economy by the end of this century if not sooner. And things like unions demanding unrealistic wages will be partially responsible for that. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #46 – January 02, 2006, 01:09:10 PM Quote from: thunderblunderIf this thread continues, I will find more LIGITIMATE statistics about how much management "earns" compared to what they contribute Vs. the labor force.Please do. If anything, your post proved the point that unions inflate the wages of their members.Union members earn 43% more compensation than non-union members, that is a little excessive. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #47 – January 02, 2006, 02:04:51 PM BTW- I won't disagree that upper management often makes way more than they deserve.I work for sears...a company that is losing millions of dollars per year. And yet, our current CEO still has a multi-million dollar yearly salary, and our former CEO was let go with something like a $10 million severance package and will continue to make over a million dollars per year. Is that really necessary? Our CEO is doing nothing for the company and in fact will probably break it up and sell it off as real estate. It's pretty stupid. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #48 – January 02, 2006, 02:57:20 PM Quote from: JeremyBPlease do. If anything, your post proved the point that unions inflate the wages of their members.Union members earn 43% more compensation than non-union members, that is a little excessive.That point can be made very, very clearly just by looking at the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission. Here in Nova Scotia the sale of alcoholic beverages is strictly controlled and can only be done in government-owned liqour stores. Those liquor stores are staffed by members of the government employee's union. The staff of those stores are nothing more than cashiers. You pick up your bottle, you take it to the cashier, you pay for it, the cashier takes your money. This differs in absolutely no way to the job of the kid working in the corner store selling smokes and pen 15e. Yet that NSLC employee starts his wages at $15/hr while the corner store jockey gets the $6.75 minimum wage. But there's more. That $15/hr is the STARTING wage, and it quickly goes up from there. Then the NSLC employee gets six weeks of paid vacation a year while the minimum wager is entitled to two weeks (and only then because it's law). The NSLC receives full health benefits including dental, optical, etc (even though we have free health care in Canada many things are not covered, like the aforementioned). The minimum wager gets none. The NSLC has a vast array of sick/disability benefits at his disposal, including short & long term disability and 30 paid sick days a year. The minimum wager gets nothing. And on the very rare occasion that a liquor store is open on a holiday (even if it's not a real holiday, such as today, January 2nd), they get paid double time PLUS they get a day off in future. And finally, after they finally get tired of sucking at the money teat, they retire with a 75% pension AND they get a week's pay for every year they've worked as a bonus.Meanwhile the minimum wager makes $6.75. No benefits, no overtime, no sick pay, no disability, and no pension. He lives at the poverty level and just gets by while the union worker that does absolutely nothing different (except he doesn't do it as good because he knows his job is safe) lives like a king.Now the government, like any other government, is looking at saving money. The first place they look is cutting jobs (surprise - just like GM). They have talked about privatizing the liquor stores. The NSLC and unions, of course, are vocally protesting this plan, because they are seeing a cash cow dissapearing. They are using stupid arguments:"The corner store employee is not properly trained to identify under-19's", they say. Bullshiznit - they have to identify under-19's for tobacco, so why not liquor?"The crime rate will skyrocket", they say. Bullshiznit - probably 90% of store robberies happen in corner stores now, and the target is cigarettes, not booze. The corner store employee is already the one in danger."Kids will be able to buy booze", they say. Bullshiznit - For the rest of the continent, beer in corner stores seems to work OKThe simple fact: Unions don't want these jobs going to non-unions. They'll lose too much money and power. Quote Selected
JeremyB, Please consider this... Reply #49 – January 02, 2006, 03:47:58 PM I am here to annoy people with the facts again and to ask them to examine their own logic.The FACT is, According the the U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, management wages are much higher than union wages. Example:11-000 - Management Occupations - 6,085,780 people who do this. Median Hourly wage = 36.52 Mean Hourly Wage = $41.87 Mean Annual = 87,090(my number not USDL - add in benefits) - $104,000 Mean annual salary for office workers/managers. This $7,090 is WAGE not benefits. Add the $12 per hour mentioned in previous post for benefits and calculate that (this is not researched but, the assumption is that for example, salaried Ford workers get very similar benefits of production workers as noted by Bureau of Labor Statistics) the Mean wage when benefits are included is close to $50 and the mean annual compensation package is around $104,000 ($50 per hr X 40 hrs * 52 weeks) Imputed Mean annual wage $104,000 Unlike the gazillion figure, which I pulled out of my hat, these are Department of Labor figures for all management positions across all industries, that is, the auto industry is not singled out. I can not establish which side of the mean they are on but welcome anyone to research for different number than simply the mean. I have fridnds in that industry, and I know what they do, how smart they are, and how well they live.My conclusion based on FACTS: a $60,000 compensation package for a production worker is much less than that of a college educated manager, according to the US Department of Labor.My point: Based on what I read, it is generally thought by many in this thread that 60K total benefit package is outrageous. (even though this will barely buy a condo or the most modest home (trailer) and a new(er) car and only minamally provide for wife, kids, orthodontics etc.) So, in the face of a mean compensation package of 104,000 for the cube-dwellers, I ask you, "How low should the wage be for production worker?". And, "why should they not be able to partite in America?". And,"If $60,000 is outrageous for a worker, how high do wages get for "11-000 Management Occupations" before you consider them outrageous"?. My comment, then unless further comment on this is requested of me in particular, after this post - (I am half sorry I mentioned it cuz I am beating my head against the wall trying to convince people that their life's labor is worth more than $8 per hour in a country where utiities alone top $200 per month((where is your sense of self-worth?))) - , so anyway after this post I want to drop this conversation and instead talk about T-Birds: Do you really want to live with people who have no health insurance, retirement, or savings? People who barely earn enough to se by all in the name of providing Cushy packages for people whose parents paid for them to sit thru 4 years of college (includinging remedial reading) and therefore entitled them to spit on people who can only drive a hilo compared to being able to sit at a meeting eating bagels and deciding what to do at the team-building this year? I can not for the life of me understand a) why people think that $20 an hour or so Plus benefits is such a fantastic wage and b) why people do not recognize that it is nearly 100% management's failure to mangage that plagues our US auto industry. C) why people do not understand that if you have a country where the workers can not afford to buy the products they make - auto worker can not afford a $19,000 new car - then we all become Mexicans, headed for Germany or France or Italy in hopes of getting decent wage and medical attention. My useless Blustering: So wise up! I have not even mentioned EXECUTIVE Salaries. I have not mentioned CEO, Board member COO etc salaries. Any moron with an 8th grade education can lower production costs by declaring across the board wage cuts. If the American way is to be innovative, creative, fair, hardworking, etc... then let's see it FORD, let'see it GM. Let's see it DIAMLER. (OH YEAH.... Chrysler is MAKING GREAT PROFITS and contributing to local communities, schools, businesses while paying union wages, out building and out producing all competition) I wonder why people think "average" is to be valued as worthless in the marketplace. An unskilled worker who demands of himself that he do his/her job well - put the emblem on straight, tighten the hard to reach bolt, use all the clips - who is dedicated to quality is WORTH EVERY PENNY TOO!! Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #50 – January 02, 2006, 03:57:49 PM Probably not the best argument tactic to insult people's self-worth to support your point. I can see this ending badly. (or ) Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #51 – January 02, 2006, 04:09:31 PM QuoteI can not for the life of me understand a) why people think that $20 an hour or so Plus benefits is such a fantastic wage and You want to know why? Because I have a college education, work in an office, manage a team of technical support personnel, and make less than that. That, in my opinion, is an excessive wage for someone with a high school education that puts emblems on straight and tightens bolts, regardless of how hard they are to reach. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #52 – January 02, 2006, 04:15:19 PM The thing you can't seem to get into your head is that there is a HUGE gap between "worthless" and "paid what you're worth". Assembling cars for $60k/yr is not "paid what you're worth". It's called "raping the American economy". You can wrap yourself in the American flag all you want, but just don't get it dirty as the walls of corporate America crumble around you. And those walls ARE crumbling, one need only look as far as GM, and for more obvious proof, Delphi Automotive.Do you not find it intriguing that nearly 100% of the experts on the subject (including countless magazine editors whos job it is to write about such things) feel it's largely the UAW's fault that the domestics are crumbling? And of the few that don't, how many are in the employ of the UAW?And as I mentioned before, and as you ignored: Managers, executives, etc, make more money than you BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO! Without more pay they'd have no incentive to be managers or executives. And why does GM pay Bob Lutz the big bucks? Because if they didn't, Ford would buy him up. If Ford didn't, Nissan would. That's the way the business works - if you want the talent, you've got to pay for it. Just like professional sports.The "culture of entitlement" that most UAW workers (including yourself, obviously) is going to come to an end. It will end either when your employers close up shop and move to a place they won't have to deal with you, or it'll end when they close up shop for good, but it will end. The business world has changed, and wrapping yourself in a flag and getting up on your high horse will not unchange it. 1920's style labour relations is not going to cut it.Now, that being said, I'm certainly not saying the UAW is 100% to blame. They're probably about 85%, but not 100%. Certainly the person who decided that the Five Hundred and Freestar were "good enough" must shoulder the blame for their failures. The person that signed off on the Aztec should have a kick in the arse. The one that decided that all new car platform development at GM would go on hold until the GMT900 was ready surely deserves a nudge in the nuts. But the management is finally (though forcibly) recognizing the fact that they have to change the way they do business. It's high time the UAW made that same realization. Until they do the unemployment lines will only get longer. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #53 – January 02, 2006, 04:21:44 PM The thing you can't seem to get into your head is that there is a HUGE gap between "worthless" and "paid what you're worth". Assembling cars for $60k/yr is not "paid what you're worth". It's called "raping the American economy". You can wrap yourself in the American flag all you want, but just don't get it dirty as the walls of corporate America crumble around you. And those walls ARE crumbling, one need only look as far as GM, and for more obvious proof, Delphi Automotive.And on the subject of "people whose parents paid for them to sit thru 4 years of college (including remedial reading)" - how many of your $60k/yr assembly robots got their job because daddy worked at Ford, and his daddy worked at Ford, and so-on? Securing a future for not only yourself, but for sonny-boy, is a big part of union culture of entitlement, and it is also a culture that is swiftly (and rightly) coming to an end.Do you not find it intriguing that nearly 100% of the experts on the subject (including countless magazine editors whos job it is to write about such things) feel it's largely the UAW's fault that the domestics are crumbling? And of the few that don't, how many are in the employ of the UAW?And as I mentioned before, and as you ignored: Managers, executives, etc, make more money than you BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO! Without more pay they'd have no incentive to be managers or executives. And why does GM pay Bob Lutz the big bucks? Because if they didn't, Ford would buy him up. If Ford didn't, Nissan would. I don't now what Carl Goshn (sp) makes, but I guarantee Ford and GM would double it just to get hold of him. That's the way the business works - if you want the talent, you've got to pay for it. Just like professional sports.The "culture of entitlement" that most UAW workers (including yourself, obviously) is going to come to an end. It will end either when your employers close up shop and move to a place they won't have to deal with you, or it'll end when they close up shop for good, but it will end. The business world has changed, and wrapping yourself in a flag and getting up on your high horse will not unchange it. 1920's style labour relations is not going to cut it.Now, that being said, I'm certainly not saying the UAW is 100% to blame. They're probably about 85%, but not 100%. Certainly the person who decided that the Five Hundred and Freestar were "good enough" must shoulder the blame for their failures. The person that signed off on the Aztec should have a kick in the arse. The one that decided that all new car platform development at GM would go on hold until the GMT900 was ready surely deserves a nudge in the nuts. But the management is finally (though forcibly) recognizing the fact that they have to change the way they do business. It's high time the UAW made that same realization. Until they do the unemployment lines will only get longer. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #54 – January 02, 2006, 04:48:15 PM Quote from: thunderblunderI am here to annoy people with the facts again and to ask them to examine their own logic.Nothing you've posted is news to me. QuoteAdd the $12 per hour mentioned in previous post for benefits and calculate that (this is not researched but, the assumption is that for example, salaried Ford workers get very similar benefits of production workers as noted by Bureau of Labor Statistics)The posts I've read on other forums from salaried Ford employees show that is an incorrect assumption. The union folks get better benefits than salaried employees.It looks to me that we are not going to see eye-to-eye on the matter of union salaries from the tone of your previous posts.My personal union experience:I interned at a Pipe Mill (Quench & Temper portion of the finishing half). Due to my position as an intern, I wasn't a job threat to either management or the line-workers, so I got to see both sides of the conflict. The problem I saw was not so much excessive pay of the workers, but the general feeling of malaise I got from the majority of them. Promotions were awarded strictly on seniority, so working hard gets you nowhere. Getting fired was close to impossible. Many times in the weekly management meeting it was pointed out that the 3rd shift furnace controller was sleeping on the job. You could tell because the pipes would get stacked up in the austentizing or tempering furnace, but no action would be taken for 20 minutes or longer. The resulting log-jam would take another hour or so to fix. But, the only way to fire the guy would be to actually catch him sleeping, which would be impossible since he's be warned by his fellow workers when management showed up at 5am. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #55 – January 02, 2006, 05:54:41 PM Regarding union pay. I am willing to concede that I might be wrong, although your arguments have not convinced me that I am. Note that I am not in a union, I get paid much much more than an auto worker and I am grateful for that. I see such problems with management and feel like "blame the worker for earning too much" is not the answer. But again, I could be wrong. Who was it that said "we get what we settle for". Thank you all for your sincere responses. Peace out. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #56 – January 02, 2006, 06:02:56 PM Quote"blame the worker for earning too much" is not the answerI agree and I don't think anyone here was blaming the worker. It is the unions that should be blamed for taking advantage of the industry. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #57 – January 02, 2006, 11:25:09 PM Quote from: thunderblunderI am here to annoy people with the facts again and to ask them to examine their own logic.The FACT is, According the the U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, management wages are much higher than union wages. Example:11-000 - Management Occupations - 6,085,780 people who do this. Median Hourly wage = 36.52 Mean Hourly Wage = $41.87 Mean Annual = 87,090(my number not USDL - add in benefits) - $104,000 Mean annual salary for office workers/managers. This $7,090 is WAGE not benefits. Add the $12 per hour mentioned in previous post for benefits and calculate that (this is not researched but, the assumption is that for example, salaried Ford workers get very similar benefits of production workers as noted by Bureau of Labor Statistics) the Mean wage when benefits are included is close to $50 and the mean annual compensation package is around $104,000 ($50 per hr X 40 hrs * 52 weeks) Imputed Mean annual wage $104,000 Unlike the gazillion figure, which I pulled out of my hat, these are Department of Labor figures for all management positions across all industries, that is, the auto industry is not singled out. I can not establish which side of the mean they are on but welcome anyone to research for different number than simply the mean. I have fridnds in that industry, and I know what they do, how smart they are, and how well they live.My conclusion based on FACTS: a $60,000 compensation package for a production worker is much less than that of a college educated manager, according to the US Department of Labor.My point: Based on what I read, it is generally thought by many in this thread that 60K total benefit package is outrageous. (even though this will barely buy a condo or the most modest home (trailer) and a new(er) car and only minamally provide for wife, kids, orthodontics etc.) So, in the face of a mean compensation package of 104,000 for the cube-dwellers, I ask you, "How low should the wage be for production worker?". And, "why should they not be able to partite in America?". And,"If $60,000 is outrageous for a worker, how high do wages get for "11-000 Management Occupations" before you consider them outrageous"?. My comment, then unless further comment on this is requested of me in particular, after this post - (I am half sorry I mentioned it cuz I am beating my head against the wall trying to convince people that their life's labor is worth more than $8 per hour in a country where utiities alone top $200 per month((where is your sense of self-worth?))) - , so anyway after this post I want to drop this conversation and instead talk about T-Birds: Do you really want to live with people who have no health insurance, retirement, or savings? People who barely earn enough to se by all in the name of providing Cushy packages for people whose parents paid for them to sit thru 4 years of college (includinging remedial reading) and therefore entitled them to spit on people who can only drive a hilo compared to being able to sit at a meeting eating bagels and deciding what to do at the team-building this year? I can not for the life of me understand a) why people think that $20 an hour or so Plus benefits is such a fantastic wage and b) why people do not recognize that it is nearly 100% management's failure to mangage that plagues our US auto industry. C) why people do not understand that if you have a country where the workers can not afford to buy the products they make - auto worker can not afford a $19,000 new car - then we all become Mexicans, headed for Germany or France or Italy in hopes of getting decent wage and medical attention. My useless Blustering: So wise up! I have not even mentioned EXECUTIVE Salaries. I have not mentioned CEO, Board member COO etc salaries. Any moron with an 8th grade education can lower production costs by declaring across the board wage cuts. If the American way is to be innovative, creative, fair, hardworking, etc... then let's see it FORD, let'see it GM. Let's see it DIAMLER. (OH YEAH.... Chrysler is MAKING GREAT PROFITS and contributing to local communities, schools, businesses while paying union wages, out building and out producing all competition) I wonder why people think "average" is to be valued as worthless in the marketplace. An unskilled worker who demands of himself that he do his/her job well - put the emblem on straight, tighten the hard to reach bolt, use all the clips - who is dedicated to quality is WORTH EVERY PENNY TOO!!Wow, that was a rambling on of falsified information and stereotypes. So all of those who have a college degree have had their parents pay for it? I worked the my way through college, my parents had nothing to do with my bills or tuition. The men that work for me get paid overtime, which I do not. I will be honest, I make 51K and expect a 15% raise when I receive a permanant position. My men make $23hr plus OT, which they will get . I know several who make over 80k and a few who break $90k. These are agreement union employees. I work more hours than they do and I am on call 24/7. I imagine $60k will be within my reach by this year plus a 10% bonus, If I calculated this into an hourly wage, it would be less than 23/hr due to my being called out at all times of the night and weekends. Thats FACTS, not my opinions. Also, CEO's and upper management, as well as positions I am in have MUCH MUCH more responsibility than union the union workers. They wouldnt take my job if they were offered it, they make more with less responsibilty. That is a fact because they have all told me that. When you have a clue about company/management relations respond back, until then hold your insults and misconceptions. Quote Selected
Toyota sucks Reply #58 – January 03, 2006, 01:21:47 AM i had a friend that worked at the st paul ranger plant that got paid $34/hr plus full bennys for screwing on gas caps. while i was making 45,000 a year for running an entire housing project having to listen to every subcontractor complain fun all i know is that unions brain wash peeps just ask my bud that will only vote for who the union says to hmm but im not here the politics im here for the lovely ladies Ill watch fox news for the right and cnn for the left Quote Selected
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