Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Topic: Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture? (Read 3259 times) previous topic - next topic

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #15 – February 12, 2008, 10:12:49 PM

Quote from: oldraven;203682

Well, the GT wasn't that long ago.

I agree! Of all modern Supercars the Ford GT is my favorite! Even the sound of the car sends chills up your spine! All time favorite car with a ford engine is still the Cobra though.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #16 – February 13, 2008, 01:12:40 AM

They need to make cars that weigh less then a 1970's suburban. They need to start making hand crank windows standard again...

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #17 – February 13, 2008, 07:33:10 AM

Quote from: V8Demon;203792

Corvette Z06 = 7.0 liters = 505 HP....I guess that's not a serious performance engine than....

It's not their halo car, either.

Not anymore, anyway. Without forced induction, American cars don't come anywhere near what a lot of European and puppiesanese cars do for the amount of motor they use. So why aren't they using forced induction? Everyone else on earth is. We've got some stubborn point to make about N/A V8's. Everybody loves them, just like they love Harleys. They're big, loud, and make a lot of torque, but aren't really on top of the world.

I think the same thing about the 16-4 Veyron engine. 1001hp would rip the hair off my back with sheer forward thrust, and it's doing it with less than the Viper with 8.0L. Here in America they're making that much power and more with SBC's, big MOD's, and SRT V-10's by using turbo's (SSC, Saleen, Hennessey), just like the Bugatti. It's just a lot of numbers being thrown at you when you read the specs of the 16-4. Four 4-cyinder banks, four turbos, two intercoolers, 10 radiators, 8 ecu's. The little amount of work it takes to make a US engine put down that power makes the Bugatti look exactly like what it is. A statement; not really the best engineering. We could be laughing at everyone else if we just listened to what they're asking. Why does it take so much motor? Answer them by wringing every last shetland pony out of these honking motors, just like they do, but produce twice the power. I think that would be a fitting answer, don't you?

The Viper could have been a lot more than it is. It's supposed to be the Balls Out, no compromise raw power serial killer. So why isn't it? Warranty? Draft up a less liable Supercar warranty.

Now the other side of the coin is if you need 600hp, why use twice the engine you need, when saving weight is everything? I guarantee people would still love it, and be way more impressed with it. Just look at the following the Turbo Buicks have, and those things are as ugly as sin.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #18 – February 13, 2008, 09:02:27 AM

Quote from: oldraven;203865

Just look at the following the Turbo Buicks have, and those things are as ugly as sin.

*GASP*
How could you!

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #19 – February 13, 2008, 09:13:14 AM

Quote from: V8Demon;203563

...Or just tpuppies a company to the bone?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=124766

Mahindra Jeep: Another American-Indian Deal in the Works?
After pulling away from Renault-Nissan, the Indian SUV specialist is said to be discussing a range of possible ventures with Chrysler — including the potential acquisition of the iconic Jeep brand.

I've been saying this since the day DCX became Chrysler LLC. There's no way a private investor's group would buy a dog like Chrysler unless they wanted to dismantle the company and sell it off for profit. It was even more obvious when a few months back LLC made a statement to the effect of 'We were mislead into thinking Chrysler was an up and coming car company.' Up and Coming? No investor would be that careless as to not even google the company they're looking at spending hundreds of millions of dollars on.

Well, at least they went out with a bang of a Challenger. (reminds me of Plymouth ending with the Prowler)

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #20 – February 13, 2008, 12:40:25 PM

Quote

It was even more obvious when a few months back LLC made a statement to the effect of 'We were mislead into thinking Chrysler was an up and coming car company.'

They were lying to themselves when they mad THAT statement....

Quote

It's not their halo car, either. Not anymore, anyway. Without forced induction, American cars don't come anywhere near what a lot of European and puppiesanese cars do for the amount of motor they use. So why aren't they using forced induction? Everyone else on earth is. We've got some stubborn point to make about N/A V8's. Everybody loves them, just like they love Harleys. They're big, loud, and make a lot of torque, but aren't really on top of the world.

Right now it's the most powerful thing they've put out to date (the Z06) So up until now I would say it WAS their halo car......As far as America and it's big cubes vs. FI on overseas cars, this is nothing new. The difference is now the overseas cars are using FI with larger sized motors than before.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #21 – February 13, 2008, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;203915

They were lying to themselves when they mad THAT statement....

Right now it's the most powerful thing they've put out to date (the Z06) So up until now I would say it WAS their halo car......As far as America and it's big cubes vs. FI on overseas cars, this is nothing new. The difference is now the overseas cars are using FI with larger sized motors than before.

And because of that they're outgunning us when we could have been doing it a decade ago. Again, what's stopping domestics from using FI in their top end cars? The same thing that stops Mazda from producing a real rocket. They're too stubborn to give up on the oil burning, apex seal eating, fuel wasting rotary, just like we can't let go of the N/A V8. Having something to prove to the point of it being a hang-up holds you back. (I'm being the kettle here, considering my love for the 2.3L)

I think a 7.0L V8 making 500hp is out of this world too. I'll say that the LSX has to be the best all around power/torque/economy/size/weight V8 on the market, but for their top tier halo car they can do better. And they have. Compare the ZR-1 and Z06 for a second. The clever SC packaging alone is impressive, but laying down 620hp with a motor 800cc's smaller than the one making 505 (115hp more and 800cc's smaller!) is exactly what I'm talking about in this thread. If there had been a $100K Viper, you know it would be making some serious profit if all they have to do is add some hair dryers.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #22 – February 13, 2008, 03:08:39 PM

I'm not up to speed on foreign offerings, but what non-supercars put out 400+ hp from the factory? How many put out 300+?

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #23 – February 13, 2008, 03:28:00 PM

Quote from: oldraven;203865

Just look at the following the Turbo Buicks have, and those things are as ugly as sin.

NOOO way!! The turbo buicks are shagy as hell!!
im being serious too lol, my buddy has a GN he restored, god id give almost anything for that car!!

The Viper is a child hood fantasy car, and a big boy toy.
Anybody that knows cars, knows that a viper, is not a real good high po car. It just isnt that fast compared to what you can do with a mustang or a vette for similar amounts of money

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #24 – February 13, 2008, 04:00:53 PM

Quote from: JeremyB;203943

I'm not up to speed on foreign offerings, but what non-supercars put out 400+ hp from the factory? How many put out 300+?

A lot of Super/turbo charged Merdedes do. Yes, they're FI V8s and V12s. Nissan has a few offerings that have over 300. BMW has a few 400+ cars. All but one Aston Martin makes 400, and that makes 380. But that's not what I'm getting at. 100hp/L is today's benchmark. When you've achieved this you know you've done something special. Not everybody is able to pull it off, but it wouldn't be much of a benchmark if they could. The reason hp/L means so much now is fuel economy and production costs. It also helps reach that other important goal, hp/T.

If you guys don't believe me that the Viper could and should have been much more than it is, just take a look around at what the car has gained for itself after it left the showroom. http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperformance/index.php
The fastest and most powerful limited-edition street car in the world. Only 24 will be built.

This car recently dethroned the Veyron for top speed (just a mile and a half slower than the SCC Aero), and beat it to 200mhp. http://www.motorauthority.com/news/motorsport/hennessey-viper-passes-veyron-as-world%e2%80%99s-fastest-car/
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/supercars/hennessey-viper-beats-veyron-in-0-200mph-shoot-out/

As for the GN, it's not pretty. I think my German Shepherd Buffy is a beautiful dog, but I'd never make her my wife. The turbo Buicks get their love purely for their engine. They're not called sleepers because they're beautiful, it's because they look like a Regal with no chrome.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #25 – February 13, 2008, 04:29:06 PM

Hennessey is a conman. He builds a few sweet cars and screws the rest out of their money. I'm amazed nobody has shot him yet. I'm also amazed the the media still swings on his sack screaming his praises. That being said...:D

hp/L isn't a valid comparison of engines. BMEP is far more valid, but has its drawbacks too. BSFC maps gives the best window into how efficient an engine is, but those are rarely available. Engine weight/size is also important.

Comparing/Contrasting the GT500's SC'd 5.4 versus the LS7
They have similar power/torque outputs. The mod motor has 28% more hp/L and 35% more BMEP, yet the LS7 is much smaller and lighter. I'd take the LS7 over the GT500's powerplant in a second - it delivers the same absolute performance with less volume/weight.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #26 – February 13, 2008, 04:37:24 PM

Quote

A lot of Super/turbo charged Merdedes do. Yes, they're FI V8s and V12s. Nissan has a few offerings that have over 300. BMW has a few 400+ cars. All but one Aston Martin makes 400, and that makes 380

The price sticker on many of those cars exceeds that of the Viper. I'm sure the bottom line has a lot to do with how much tech/power a car gets. Case in point the ZR-1 is expected to be over $100,000.

A 100K vette.....

And as far as Nissans offerings.....The only real engine I'd even consider from them is their 4.5 V8. The 3.5 has high HP, but is lacking in the torque dept.

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #27 – February 13, 2008, 04:51:27 PM

HP/L is bunk because the ci/cc-to-L rating is unregulated.

Chrysler 5.9L = 360ci vs. GM 6.0L = 364ci
Ford 5.0ci = 302ci vs GM 4.9L = 305ci
GM SBC 5.7L = 350ci vs. GM LSx 5.7L = 346ci

The smaller motors (Subaru 2.0/2.5, Mitsu 2.0, Honda's, etc) are even worse about it.

HP/CI or HP/CC is the only really accurate way to measure. Though the 100HP/Claimed L is a valid argument (IIRC the WRX 227HP/2.0L was the first normal car in the US to really exceed it, though a few did equal it including the 200HP/2.0L Integra Type R).

I'd love for a 460HP 4.6/281 or a 600HP 6.0L/364.

Remember when 1HP/CI was a big deal?

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #28 – February 13, 2008, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: oldraven;203964

A lot of Super/turbo charged Merdedes do. Yes, they're FI V8s and V12s. Nissan has a few offerings that have over 300. BMW has a few 400+ cars. All but one Aston Martin makes 400, and that makes 380. But that's not what I'm getting at. 100hp/L is today's benchmark. When you've achieved this you know you've done something special. Not everybody is able to pull it off, but it wouldn't be much of a benchmark if they could. The reason hp/L means so much now is fuel economy and production costs. It also helps reach that other important goal, hp/T.

If you guys don't believe me that the Viper could and should have been much more than it is, just take a look around at what the car has gained for itself after it left the showroom. http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperformance/index.php
The fastest and most powerful limited-edition street car in the world. Only 24 will be built.

This car recently dethroned the Veyron for top speed (just a mile and a half slower than the SCC Aero), and beat it to 200mhp. http://www.motorauthority.com/news/motorsport/hennessey-viper-passes-veyron-as-world%e2%80%99s-fastest-car/
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/supercars/hennessey-viper-beats-veyron-in-0-200mph-shoot-out/

As for the GN, it's not pretty. I think my German Shepherd Buffy is a beautiful dog, but I'd never make her my wife. The turbo Buicks get their love purely for their engine. They're not called sleepers because they're beautiful, it's because they look like a Regal with no chrome.

Meh
that to me makes it shagy. I love rolling bricks

Is the Viper going to be put to Pasture?

Reply #29 – February 14, 2008, 07:32:15 AM

Quote from: V8Demon;203973

The price sticker on many of those cars exceeds that of the Viper. I'm sure the bottom line has a lot to do with how much tech/power a car gets. Case in point the ZR-1 is expected to be over $100,000.

A 100K vette.....

And as far as Nissans offerings.....The only real engine I'd even consider from them is their 4.5 V8. The 3.5 has high HP, but is lacking in the torque dept.

Like I said, Dodge could have cranked the price of the Viper if it were making 200-300 more horses, which it can easily do. Starting at $88,000, 12 grand isn't a lot for that much of an upscale powertrain. Compare it to other cars the world over with that kind of power and both the ZR-1 and a $100G Viper would still be a bargain. I'm saying Dodge should be doing what Hennessey is. They could be producing these monsters from the factory instead of letting that guy get all the glory.

What about the GT-R 3.8? That makes a crazy amount of torque, and isn't in a Supercar. It's a Grand Tourer. 480 horse and 430 lb/ft from a 3.8L V6 (sound familiar?).

We can bicker about this all day, but who actually thinks that the Viper was living up to its potential?

Quote

Ford 5.0ci = 302ci vs GM 4.9L = 305ci

Ford math makes me laugh. :D

P71, I can't believe you just typed that. What is the difference between HP/L and HP/CC or HP/CI? It's the same equation of power to volume, just with a different level of accuracy. We're still making the same argument.

Quote

Remember when 1HP/CI was a big deal?

Exactly. Was a big deal. It was a real achievement 40 years ago. But if we haven't advanced significantly in those 40 years then there is a problem. There shouldn't be a car on the road today making less than 1HP/CI.