lets talk spindles

Topic: lets talk spindles (Read 4042 times) previous topic - next topic

lets talk spindles

October 21, 2015, 07:43:23 PM

so,, im probably not qualified to put in rotor bearings...

apparently all these years ive been doing it wrong and got away with it.

THis is the second set of front bearings in 4 months for my front end.
so last go I checked on line to find out how its done right and also consulted the shop manuals.

to set the bearing iirc, its 17 to 24ft/lbs , then back off a half turn then re- torque to about 10 inch pounds. Well, did all that and they are back to rumbling. 280k miles on the car so I am going to take some measurements on the spindle diameter.

If im slightly worn out then I get it so here is an idea I hatched.

I want to clean the spindle then with a punch I want to in one good swing "ding in" a dot.

what this would do is make it a tad difficult to install the bearing because I rolled a tiny area of metal.
the net gain is it will help seize up the inner race. I think this is whats happening is that the inner race is being allowed to spool around and round .

I am assuming the inner bearing part of the spindle is worn,, but it might be the outter,, dono,, need others input

once upon a time I heard of something called shim stock that could fix this kind of stuff.

lets talk spindles

Reply #1 – October 21, 2015, 10:11:23 PM

Do you think the inner race is allowed to spin if the weight of the car is on it?

lets talk spindles

Reply #2 – October 22, 2015, 09:11:03 AM

not sure,,

ball joints are fine

i put a set of wheel bearings in the car back in 2008 when i purchased my 20th,
this year they started rumbling so whatever i did worked well for years

this past summer i replaced with "National" bearings that autozone sells.
within a couple road trips out of town those started making noise so i just decided to do them again thinking im doing something wrong.

i replaced them again prob early last month and these are just now making the same noise.

now these new ones are rumbling.. so its either the part quality, Me, or the spindle. need to eliminate where the problem is.

lets talk spindles

Reply #3 – October 22, 2015, 12:37:39 PM

I'm willing to bet it's the spindle
I actually recall having to replace one on my old 85 tbird
Wheel bearings didn't fix it and the previous owner had Daytons, heated Springs, tore up(and I mean tore the hell up) rotor on one side
The spindle must have been tweaked because a different one fixed the problem
I suppose a really bad pothole could cause it

lets talk spindles

Reply #4 – October 22, 2015, 02:07:25 PM

i hit plenty of those

I am always amazed at how much trust we put into that one single little nut that holds everything on... somehow i find myself thinking that if I had engineered the spindle nut, it would look something like the nut atop a ball joint, not something with just 3 or 4 threads... and a skinny profile.

what do you think about putting a punch "ding" into the spndle, the idea i brought up earlier?

lets talk spindles

Reply #5 – October 22, 2015, 02:38:37 PM

If you are going to replace the spindle as "plan b", you don't have much to lose by trying the punch method (other than maybe a $6 bearing).

I was chasing a "wheel bearing" noise in my wife's van. I replaced everything on that front end and still had the noise. Long story short, it turned out to be the AC fan on the radiator! The AC didn't work, so she never ran it. When you'd get down the street fast enough, air would turn the blades and the rusty motor would just howl like crazy. But it sounds just like front-end noise! Oh well, she's got all new bearings and all under there. And a new AC fan (and AC that works) LOL.

lets talk spindles

Reply #6 – October 25, 2015, 09:28:34 AM

measured my new bearings and spindles and came up with this using my dial indicator

inner bearing inner race= 1.377''
spindle inner bearing shaft diameter 1.377''

outer bearing inner race = .865''
spindle outer bearing shaft diameter= .865''

apparently I need a caliper to have been able to see the wear to the .0001 and .00001 level.

What I did see what was apparently two mating surfaces that matched even if I visually estimated the 10thousanths on my dial indicator.... so I looked at things more closely so see next post. I am not an ASE mech nor qualified to speak to this engineering area I am going to point to ,, I am going to simply make a few assumptions and let others who are more knowledgeable than me on the topic chime in on thoughts.

lets talk spindles

Reply #7 – October 25, 2015, 09:42:17 AM

starting with picture 1
Speculative assumptions
-point A shows the curvature where the spindle shaft transitions from the horizontal to vertical plane, I want to call it the spindle radial.
-Point B on the bearing profile should "bind up" to this rounded area when your nut is installed, I want to call it the inner bearing radial.
-Point C is the vertical wall and becomes my focal point for most of this post.
-Point D will indicate to us visually the spindles are going bad but I believe its a result of the failure of radial points A and B "IF" point C is periodically inspected.

*******Note- I noticed that point A radial is not a mirror image of Point B radial,, seems point A is a smaller radial than point B!!! I will bring this up next post.

lets talk spindles

Reply #8 – October 25, 2015, 09:48:11 AM

Picture 2
My inspection shows that I can slide my inner bearing all the way up and touching point C of picture 1.
Its my belief that this would be an indication from an engineer that the spindle is worn out too much and is out of tolerance.

Picture 3
This shows what I believe would have been discovered if the car was brand new. there would be a slight visual gap between the bearing and point C from picture 1 confirming that points A & B radials from picture 1 are mating.

End result is from pic1 , when over time point A & B radials eventually break away from one another and the inner bearing inner race is finally allowed to "spool", it wears down point A radial and wear on point D is a side effect. Eventually point A radial is no longer binding with point B radial and the owner will find this to be true when inspecting the clearances on point C which is "ZERO".

I have another theory as a back up plan.
I just so happen to have an original bearing from my son's bird where the bearing "cage" is made of plastic. this was pretty common in the 80's and Timken made bearings where the cage was pioneering technology in plastics. I will study point B radial from pic 1 to compare its profile. IF this oem bearing profile point B matches more closely to the profile on our spindles Point A radial then that's an after market support problem we will never solve. Like I mentioned earlier, the radial of point A & B are not mirror images of one another. If aftermarket support got this wrong, the mating surfaces would not completely touch and reduce surface contact allowing for the inner race of the inner bearing point A & B to break away from one another much earlier.

lets talk spindles

Reply #9 – October 25, 2015, 10:11:27 AM

Picture 4
I am experimenting here so bear with me....
I used stamping tools and chose the number 7
I stamped point C from pic 1 in three spots 120deg apart so as to act as a "star washer" so to speak.
I then stamped only in one spot point D on the top.

My thoughts were confirmed as I installed my assembled rotor, I had to tap the assembly on to clear the metal I rolled up on point D.
Once doing so I am hopeful that point C triple stamping combined with point D stamp will keep the inner race steady and locked down when my spindle nut is torqued.

Referencing pic 1, Its my assumption that when point A & B are worn, there is no gap visible at point C and that wear shown on Point D is only a "result" of this.
I believe we can manage this by making small corrections to point A or insuring the inner race of the inner bearing is remaining still.

or........
Aftermarket bearings have the wrong radial profile from pic 1 point B

either way I believe we don't have to throw away spindles if we do some wear and tear calibration / adjustments.

lets talk spindles

Reply #10 – October 25, 2015, 10:22:31 AM

If a man were able to tac weld pic 1 point A in three 120deg out of phase places and then somehow be able to machine down each dimple profile to the same height elevation like .001, this would solve everything.

lets talk spindles

Reply #11 – October 25, 2015, 10:45:24 AM

hummm,, but wait,, let me contradict myellf...

if everything above were true,, then the bearing stamping information pn / brand ect should effectively be worn off or slightly worn off because of the friction along point C !
let me go check that.

lets talk spindles

Reply #12 – October 25, 2015, 08:18:57 PM

Just an idea.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1525339

lets talk spindles

Reply #13 – October 26, 2015, 08:04:15 PM

yep, have some of the shaft repair stuff by loctite ,, yet in this application i do want to be able to one day take it off without a bomb or torch to blow it off LOL.

thanks!!!!!!!

lets talk spindles

Reply #14 – November 19, 2015, 03:39:19 AM

It's likely the bearings. I did pizza delivery in my old thundercat with around 180k miles on it. One day I was going down the road, hit a pothole and it shattered some wheel bearings I put in a few weeks earlier. I replaced warped rotors and the original nylon bearings (yes OEM wheel bearings had nylon parts!). I managed to do my delivery, last one of the day, 1:41 am on the side of a mountain and then the brakes quit working so I forced the car into a dead end street and spent the night at a buddies house. Since the outer wheel bearing shattered and took off the cotter pin and loosened the nut, the car was riding on the loose inner wheel bearing and disk against the caliper bracket.

Amazingly nothing appeared bent, but the litter wheel bearing was toast, as was the spindle nut and hardware.the innerwheel bearing came loose and scored up all over the inside of the spindle, as the car was forced onto the dead end street with the tire at a 45° angle. I actually got a ride home and got the old nylon bearings I had on the bench still (no auto parts stores were opened and I was worried about a tow) put them back on and cleaned up the spindle best I could with those cruddy adjustable pliers, just taking out the metal flakes until I could get the old wheel bearings back on and limped the car home.

On payday I replaced them again with the cheaper wheel bearings and the car made some noise. I used plenty of grease and this was far from my first brake job, I tried adjusting them, torquing the spindle nut and it still made noise. The wheel bearing on the opposite side started squeeling and I ran my local auto parts store out of the cheap bearings. I finally bit the bullet and put in the $12.99 timken bearings, but the car back together and instantly everything was fixed. I'll bet I went through 4 full sets of cheap wheel bearings before I bought the good ones. The good ones fit better and never made a noise. One day I got bored and took apart a few of the old bearings and they were garbage inside. You could see metal pitting all around the rollers and a few even had cracks. I doubt I had 1k miles on all 4 sets and the all looked the same.

That is the first, and last time I ever had a problem with wheel bearings, and using the cruddy cheap bearings, the only time I've ever shattered a bearing on a pot hole.