Rocker adjustment....

Topic: Rocker adjustment.... (Read 29967 times) previous topic - next topic

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #180 – November 14, 2014, 04:06:03 AM

Codes. Engine balance test.

Takes you longer to pour your coffee at 7-11 everyday. I once had to buy a test light and paper clips. Cost me just over $2. If your check engine light works, you only need the paper clip.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #181 – November 14, 2014, 05:41:13 AM

I have a question. What have you done in the realm of tuning since you got your new build going? I know you're MAF converted, on 24's and probably have a calibrated meter, but beyond that, anything? I ask because I've been researching some minor driveablility issues with MY new build, and I've determined that running a calibrated MAF is throwing off the load calculation, and making it impossible for the PCM to derive correct timing advance. I have 30lb/hr injectors, A9P, and a calibrated 76mm. I'm getting a Moates Quarterhorse between now and spring so that I can compensate for the injectors in the PCM instead of the MAF, and not have these odd issues. Also, what has your new build got for a compression ratio? Mine is almost 11:1, so timing advance issues don't go unnoticed.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #182 – November 14, 2014, 06:57:07 AM

Bottom line here is when mods are done especially on a old fashioned slow OBD1 system thisgs get ugly rather fast. Speed density would be where i would go. Vinny if you were close by i would help you in a heart beat allow you run of the shop and any thing yopu would need in that reguard. I have gotten to like you guys a hell of a lot and you are like a distant family. but you have an issue and we all are trying to help from a laptop. So maybe get some carb clean and be careful spraying it around the intake to look for leaks. Are you sure the upper has it's vacuum holes plugged properly. I had one some years back where the guy used one of those black vacuum caps and it blew off. If you have a sharp ear when shutting down the engine you can sometimes hear a vacuum leak distinctly. Your 111 CL is fine. With that you have to increase fuel pressure and see if you are closed loop lean. We all seem to be leaning to that. OR disconnect both O2 sensors and use a simulator on the ECM side and feed 1.0 volts to the ecm constantly and see if the ecm responds to the richer mixture. I made 2 O2 simulators years ago to do this. All that is needed is a D cell and a circuit to vary the voltage output from O-1Volt Clip it on to the O2 wire going to the ecm dial in a specific voltage lets say .8 drive the car and see the difference. If it does not change the ECM is out of range and most likely needs a tune. Good luck my friend. You can have a good Balance test with low compression stacks . No one uses balance anymore. But it is a good thing to know. I am willing to bet his balance test is OK. That is if he adjusted the valves correctly??? Not a bad idea but i think that engine is LEAN. Popping and flattening out. Why would it run fine cold. Simple that is when the ECM richens up everything

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #183 – November 14, 2014, 07:24:16 AM

I think the engine is lean as well. After work tonight I'll see what I can do. Sometimes I'm off at 5:30, sometimes much later, depending on patient load. I gotta tell you, after having three days off a year for nearly three years, five 10 to 12 hour days sucks.

I did the carb cleaner vacuum leak check. No dice. BUT, I still think there may be a leak.

As far as rocker adjustment, here's how I did it....multiple times....

When the exhaust valve started to open, I set the intake rocker to zero lash, then, gave it 1/2 turn and locked it.

After the Intake valve opened, and the rocker was going back up, when it's a hair from being back up all the way, I adjusted the exhaust rocker....zero lash, then 1/2 turn and lock it.

It's Friday, so I'm off the weekend. I WILL have a balance test and run codes again (with the KOEO and KOER). Hopefully I can get something done after work today.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #184 – November 14, 2014, 10:49:29 AM

Quote from: V8Demon;440588

Seek, I was wondering if perhaps his O2 sensors were switched and now reading g the wrong banks.

Unless he is getting lucky in reaching closed loop each time he fires up the motor, I doubt it! I had this issue years back. I had no idea what was going on, and neither did Jeff at All Ford Performance. Datalogging immediately showed the problem - crossed o2 wires. The EEC would see one bank going lean and try to richen it up, and vice versa. Since it would keep dumping fuel into one, and pulling fuel from the other, one bank would get really rich, and one really lean. When the EEC didn't see any switching, it blocked the o2 sensors and simply ran open-loop. No check engine light or code was thrown...

I had ONE time where it managed to go closed-loop, on a drive to Canada. My fuel economy was up, and I had no idea why. Somehow, with miraculous timing of events with a hot engine after fuel fillup, one bank had a good-enough signal at the right time, and it used that o2 to manage both banks. I wasn't datalogging then, but this was exactly how the motor behaved. Of course, on the next engine restart, the o2's failed to provide the expected signals again. Later, not even moving the o2 grounds, using my long-wire o2's and simply crossing the wires over the top of the bellhousing, I swapped the o2 plugs around and gained my fuel economy back. Other than when the car was attempting to get the o2 sensors to work after startup, it ran great since the car ran in the richer open-loop all the time. Hell, I have the datalogs around here somewhere.

The EEC handles issues in interesting ways - it simple doesn't handle them. Try having a MAF curve that isn't perfectly a curve - the EEC freaks out when it reaches that part of the MAF table and dumps fuel into the motor at 100% injector duty cycle. This only appeared as I was adjusting for one spot in the curve, from data obtained while logging. The curve went up, slightly down, and continued slightly up. Instead of interpolating data like any sane software application would, it just went full 100% injector duty cycle when it reached this little drop in the MAF curve. The computer in these cars is pretty dumb - you'd think it would just try to internally switch o2 sensor calculations if it sees a signal problem.

If Vinnie's issue persists for more than 10-minutes after a cold start, I can't see it being crossed o2 sensors. The EEC would drop into open-loop and run well again (with a 10-20% hit to fuel economy).

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #185 – November 14, 2014, 04:27:26 PM

Upon starting this morning, and yesterday morning, the idle was pretty high, stayed that way for longer than I'd think is right, then back down. Started it, it went straight to about 2100 rpms, hung there for a few seconds, then came back down. Crazy.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #186 – November 14, 2014, 04:32:46 PM

Quote from: Seek;440597

Unless he is getting lucky in reaching closed loop each time he fires up the motor, I doubt it! I had this issue years back. I had no idea what was going on, and neither did Jeff at All Ford Performance. Datalogging immediately showed the problem - crossed o2 wires. The EEC would see one bank going lean and try to richen it up, and vice versa. Since it would keep dumping fuel into one, and pulling fuel from the other, one bank would get really rich, and one really lean. When the EEC didn't see any switching, it blocked the o2 sensors and simply ran open-loop. No check engine light or code was thrown...

I had ONE time where it managed to go closed-loop, on a drive to Canada. My fuel economy was up, and I had no idea why. Somehow, with miraculous timing of events with a hot engine after fuel fillup, one bank had a good-enough signal at the right time, and it used that o2 to manage both banks. I wasn't datalogging then, but this was exactly how the motor behaved. Of course, on the next engine restart, the o2's failed to provide the expected signals again. Later, not even moving the o2 grounds, using my long-wire o2's and simply crossing the wires over the top of the bellhousing, I swapped the o2 plugs around and gained my fuel economy back. Other than when the car was attempting to get the o2 sensors to work after startup, it ran great since the car ran in the richer open-loop all the time. Hell, I have the datalogs around here somewhere.

The EEC handles issues in interesting ways - it simple doesn't handle them. Try having a MAF curve that isn't perfectly a curve - the EEC freaks out when it reaches that part of the MAF table and dumps fuel into the motor at 100% injector duty cycle. This only appeared as I was adjusting for one spot in the curve, from data obtained while logging. The curve went up, slightly down, and continued slightly up. Instead of interpolating data like any sane software application would, it just went full 100% injector duty cycle when it reached this little drop in the MAF curve. The computer in these cars is pretty dumb - you'd think it would just try to internally switch o2 sensor calculations if it sees a signal problem.

If Vinnie's issue persists for more than 10-minutes after a cold start, I can't see it being crossed o2 sensors. The EEC would drop into open-loop and run well again (with a 10-20% hit to fuel economy).

I too had my O2 sensors crossed to the wrong banks once. No codes as well. Would star up fine, get choppy for a bit, the smooth right out. I took me quite some time to diagnose as my gas mileage was pretty good. 20 + on the highway. Car was dialed in pretty well.

Bottom line codes are needed in KOER as well as KOEO and continuous memory.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #187 – November 14, 2014, 05:18:48 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;440599

I too had my O2 sensors crossed to the wrong banks once. No codes as well. Would star up fine, get choppy for a bit, the smooth right out. I took me quite some time to diagnose as my gas mileage was pretty good. 20 + on the highway. Car was dialed in pretty well.

Bottom line codes are needed in KOER as well as KOEO and continuous memory.

My fuel economy was in the 22-24 range on the highway, when it should have been around 30mpg. Closer to 20% impact.

Yeah, that choppiness is the banks going lean/rich as the EEC begins to go into closed loop. After the sensors fail to read as the EEC expects, it goes back into open-loop. My AFR's looked alright, but don't remember the specifics as it was probably 5 years ago. Weird that it doesn't throw codes though! These EECs work well for what they are, but they are pretty basic.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #188 – November 14, 2014, 05:26:31 PM

Quote from: vinnietbird;440598

Upon starting this morning, and yesterday morning, the idle was pretty high, stayed that way for longer than I'd think is right, then back down. Started it, it went straight to about 2100 rpms, hung there for a few seconds, then came back down. Crazy.

Vacuum leak + richer mixture on cold start will allow the motor to rev higher. Colder Fall/Winter air just adds to the amount of oxygen entering the engine. Besides a bad IAC, nothing else can do this - the motor can't rev without sufficient air AND fuel. I'm going to ignore the cruise control and assume the TB is closed on engine-start. You will have to find the sources of leaks in some way. I wouldn't be surprised if you have more than one vacuum leak. Easy with specialized tools, a bit more difficult to find without. I still have 2 vacuum leaks to resolve when time allows (of both mine and an aluminum welder's). I can still idle at under 600rpms with these two vacuum leaks. AFR looks fine, but obviously there is insufficient fuel due to these leaks.

Anyone have any other tips that Vinnie can use to chase vacuum leaks? Spraying around gaskets/hoses only works for some, and it isn't as effective as other tests. I'm just curious what we can recommend to him for this weekend. I'm sure Vinnie would LOVE to get this issue resolved during the next couple days. It's too bad that we can't simply bolt on some short-runner gt40 upper intake to allow full access to both sides of the motor, while the intake is still mounted and engine runs. All the stuff hiding under the plenum is harder to troubleshoot.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #189 – November 14, 2014, 05:55:54 PM

A few other ideas mixed in:

Unplug a vacuum hose while engine is running on cold-start (rich fuel trims being commanded by EEC). Doing this, if the engine revs up a lot, it has enough extra fuel to compensate for the self-induced vacuum leak. If this is the case, then there is likely no leak, or a very small one. If the rpm's barely go up, remain the same, or drop, then the extra fuel from the cold-start is already being burned with air coming in from another location - there is little or no extra fuel remaining to burn the additional air coming in from the induced vacuum leak.

Unplug and plug-off vacuum lines for non-essential items such as HVAC. See if issue persists. Also disconnect/plug EGR, charcoal canister, and vacuum tree if desired. Do not remove fuel pressure, PCV, or oil fill tube to throttle-body hoses.

Verify that there is no air leaking in between the throttle body and mass air sensor. Clamp the intake tube on tight.

Spray carb cleaner or starting fluid around gaskets and hoses - spray a lot at the EGR, IAC, TB and gaskets, upper to lower intake gasket, PCV. Slowly work around any existing houses, covering all sides of each hose. If a leak is found, the engine should smooth out and rpm's increase a little. This should not be a quick process.

Use a spray water bottle and spray around gaskets/hoses as above. Safer than combustable sprays. You can use a lot more without leaving residue everywhere.

I would recommend the following ONLY if you know there is no MAJOR leak (big hole from missing injector, unplugged hose, etc). Small amounts of water will be fine. Use a water hose to flood top of lower intake - KEEP AWAY FROM THROTTLE BODY/prevent hydrolocking the engine with a lot of water. See if idle changes when water is flowing from front to rear of intake. If a leak is found, the motor may begin to stumble as the small amounts of water mist enters the combustion chambers. The water helps pinpoint leaks from a cracked or improperly installed lower intake gasket. The water stream is really helpful under the plenum where you can't get carb spray to reach. This can also test the injector orings, since the flood of water will not allow additional air to enter. Pananoid me, keep this away from a hot exhaust. Cold water on hot manifolds "could" cause problems, but likely not a problem with headers. This step made me find my lower intake gaskets that were cracked on both sides of the motor between cylinders 1,2 and 5,6, letting in a straight-line of air into 4 cylinders. Low mileage Felpro gaskets, but they were junk. I went with the much more expensive gaskets after that.

Use air compressor to pressurize intake from vacuum tree hose. Regulate pressure to 30psi. Listen for leaks/whistles, especially with a stethoscope. Any type of smoke/powder outside the engine will show where tubulent air is moving around/escaping. This is also a handy thing to use for testing seal leaks around doors, windows, etc. Pressurize an enclosure and use floating particulate (smoke, fog, light-weight powder) to see airflow movement.

That's my updated list of things to check for vacuum leaks, without needing access to various tools.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #190 – November 14, 2014, 09:11:57 PM

Hi guys. Just got home. Loooooong day today. As far as vacuum leaks, I'm just going to swap the gaskets. Easy to do, and it'll be done. I'm also going to replace the hoses under the upper intake. The rest have been changed. I will try to have codes tomorrow. Stay tuned for that. Time used to be easy to get, now, it's a luxery.They will be done this weekend, hopefully tomorrow, no matter what.

Good ideas on the leak hunting. I will do that.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #191 – November 14, 2014, 09:13:35 PM

DIY smoke machine for testing vac leaks is within

http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1765378-cheap-diy-smoke-machine-finding-vacuum-leaks.html

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #192 – November 14, 2014, 10:09:59 PM

I read that whole thread. Now I am convinced I have a vacuum leak...........

..........well, that's what I'm telling myself for now to make myself feel better. LOL.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #193 – November 15, 2014, 08:13:20 AM

Swapping gaskets doesn't mean it'll solve a vacuum leak in a leaking spot. You need to verify that there is a leak, and then verify afterward that it was actually fixed.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #194 – November 15, 2014, 08:35:04 AM

I agree. I'm going to look deeper into the smoke machine in just a bit.