Rocker adjustment....

Topic: Rocker adjustment.... (Read 29969 times) previous topic - next topic

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #150 – November 13, 2014, 11:51:24 AM

Of course I will.....

Here's the bottom line. Rockers are fine now. Continuing issue is as foolows...Upon start up, the car runs pretty strong. After a minute or so, the car starts to run a little rough and there is an accasional pop through the throttle body, and a lack of power. If I turn the car off, then re-start it, the car is strong again, and runs great for about a minute or so, then back to the same old stuff.

I have had codes run, and the onlt one that was valid (I lited them back a few posts) was the TPS was faulty. I replaced with one I had in my parts, and that seemed to help a bit, but the issue above is still happening. I have an NOS Ford TPS in route.

The spark plugs have virtually nothing on them. super clean. maybe running lean.....

Idle is around 900

Timing is at 16 degrees.

Due to my work schedule, I haven't been able to run the KOER test yet. I cannot find a vacuum leak at all, but, there could still be one. I want to change the vacuum hoses out that are under the upper intake, and even swap the lower intake gaskets. Plenum gaskets and throttle body gaskets are new.

Once my first minute of happiness is over, it feels like there is also a stumble in the acceleration along with the lack of power. Re-start it....good to go for a minute or so.

I have not replaced the IAC. It's pretty new, but admittedly a China part. I want to replace it with an NOS Ford part as well....even if it is good.

Fuel problem maybe? I don't know. Sensor issue? Not sure.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #151 – November 13, 2014, 12:37:51 PM

Yeah, this thread has gotten confusing.

You say that you have issues when under 14 degrees of timing, but once you also said that the car was at 12 degrees, but ran fine. 16-18 degrees base timing like you say you have also had is quite a lot. I'd have to look, but you may see over 40 degrees of timing after being advanced by the EEC.

My guess is timing related. Obviously, make sure the distributor is locked down good and not moving around. Then there's cam timing (think this was discussed), and other potential issues such as a faulty distributor cap with the contacts clocked the wrong orientation.

I'm not sure why you would get smoke when using something closer to stock base timing - 10 degrees. Solve that and you may solve the entire problem.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #152 – November 13, 2014, 12:45:03 PM

Still sounds like a fuel issue or vacuum leak to me. You could have a vacuum leak between the lifer valley and the bottom of the intake manifold but I doubt it. Before you take anything apart please, please do a KOER test followed by a cylinder balance test. If it passes start looking for a mechanical issue (vacuum leak, fuel pressure, etc.).

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #153 – November 13, 2014, 12:48:39 PM

Quote from: Seek;440548

Yeah, this thread has gotten confusing.

You say that you have issues when under 14 degrees of timing, but once you also said that the car was at 12 degrees, but ran fine. 16-18 degrees base timing like you say you have also had is quite a lot. I'd have to look, but you may see over 40 degrees of timing after being advanced by the EEC.

My guess is timing related. Obviously, make sure the distributor is locked down good and not moving around. Then there's cam timing (think this was discussed), and other potential issues such as a faulty distributor cap with the contacts clocked the wrong orientation.

I'm not sure why you would get smoke when using something closer to stock base timing - 10 degrees. Solve that and you may solve the entire problem.

As long as the cam timing is good he should be able to run 10* base timing to 18* base timing with no issue. It is possible that the cam timing is screwed up but I doubt it. For what it's worth I run 18* base timing on my setup at the track. On WOT runs it results in the best E.T./MPH. On the street I run 16* base. It doesn't detonate at 18* WOT but I'm worried it might under certain conditions (95* outside temperatures, A/C on, part throttle).

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #154 – November 13, 2014, 12:50:17 PM

Quote from: thunderjet302;440550

Still sounds like a fuel issue or vacuum leak to me. You could have a vacuum leak between the lifer valley and the bottom of the intake manifold but I doubt it. Before you take anything apart please, please do a KOER test followed by a cylinder balance test. If it passes start looking for a mechanical issue (vacuum leak, fuel pressure, etc.).

12 degrees of timing making smoke, but 14 degrees not, is fuel related? That's what I don't get - Vinnie's timing has been all over the place in this thread. Setting to 10 degrees, then troubleshooting the cause of smoke, will get a major issue out of the way. There can be other issues (problems in closed loop would make me initially think vacuum leak), but this timing problem needs to get resolved.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #155 – November 13, 2014, 12:51:31 PM

Quote from: thunderjet302;440551

As long as the cam timing is good he should be able to run 10* base timing to 18* base timing with no issue. It is possible that the cam timing is screwed up but I doubt it.

But he can't run 10 degrees base timing. He said he gets smoke at 12 degrees, so he is running it higher. That problem needs to be addressed. A smoke issue would be easier to troubleshoot and fix than numerous other things. It sounds like the timing is a poor bandaid for a different problem.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #156 – November 13, 2014, 12:59:03 PM

Quote from: Seek;440553

But he can't run 10 degrees base timing. He said he gets smoke at 12 degrees, so he is running it higher. That problem needs to be addressed. A smoke issue would be easier to troubleshoot and fix than numerous other things. It sounds like the timing is a poor bandaid for a different problem.

Maybe, just maybe, the cam is installed wrong? It would have to be WAAAAAAY off to be the cause of that issue though. I'm thinking it's unburnt fuel.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #157 – November 13, 2014, 01:26:50 PM

Quote from: thunderjet302;440555

Maybe, just maybe, the cam is installed wrong? It would have to be WAAAAAAY off to be the cause of that issue though. I'm thinking it's unburnt fuel.

Agreed, but why the excess fuel. A cam installed straight up should generally be able to run well at the stock base timing. I doubt the cam is too radical. If his timing is so far off that he has a lot of fuel escaping unburnt, that is a problem. Obviously it could also be a fuel system issue. Either way, the car should be able to run at 10 degrees base without a bunch of smoke. It sounds like it runs better than in open loop, but has an issue when the motor switches to closed loop/14.7:1 AFR. If we could see the KAMRF values, we'd have a good idea immediately as to what is going on with closed loop.

We also don't know how much smoke there actually was. It is difficult to diagnose anything without all of the details that come from seeing it in person.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #158 – November 13, 2014, 03:13:49 PM

Vinnie,

At the house sick today so I have nothing better to do but some digging around on this. I checked mostly Mustang sites as there is more info there and here were some of the culprits with cars that symptoms similar to yours:

1) bad o-rings on the injectors
2) bad PIP in the distributor
3) bad fuel pump
4) bad alternator/battery
5) bad EEC
6) various vacuum leaks
7) EGR valve sticking

Anyhow, just thought I would throw them out there.

Darren

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #159 – November 13, 2014, 03:24:56 PM

I assume these would be:

1) bad o-rings on the injectors - VACUUM LEAK
2) bad PIP in the distributor - TIMING
3) bad fuel pump - TESTED ALREADY BY VINNIE, BUT LEAN MIXTURE
4) bad alternator/battery - BAD GROUNDS MORE LIKELY - INCONSISTENT VOLTAGE
5) bad EEC - UNLIKELY BUT ALWAYS POSSIBLE WITH ANY PROBLEM
6) various vacuum leaks - VACUUM LEAK
7) EGR valve sticking - TEST WITH BLOCKOFF. DOESN'T AFFECT IDLE.

If he can get more information, it can help further pinpoint the issue. I think right now, we still know almost nothing - at least not enough to provide any solid suggestions. Right now it sounds like everyone is wanting to fire all new parts at the problem, and no specific parts. More information is needed, but Vinnie has limited tools available for diagnosis. He also has many parts moving in and out of his possession, so I am sure he has tested swapping out quite a few parts.

Blocking off or unplugging things is a cheap way to test various components, if it comes down to that.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #160 – November 13, 2014, 03:43:35 PM

Hey guys. I'm at work, checking in when I can.

1.I'll check the o-rings when I pull the upper intake to swap the vacuum lines. They should be good, they only have about 2000 miles on them

2. Bad pip....maybe. I have spares. The dist. is locked down tight.

3. Bad Fuel pump.....maybe. I have wondered. I swapped it out, but have since become paranoid nd want t swap it again.

4.Bad alternator....can't say. I had it tested about 3 months ago. It checked good and the battery is new.

5.Bad EEC.....I hope not, but if it is, I'll get a new one stat.

6.vacuum leaks...I'm really wondering that myself. Intake (upper and lower).

7.EGR...I have never had an EGR on this car. It has the EGR delete plug in the harness.

Yes, I want to get the KOER test as well. I'm very curious to see what it has to say....or not to say. Also, if the car had a lot of unburnt fuel, wouldn't that leave a lot of black on the plugs? They are clean, the porcelian under the electrode is white. I can post a pic of one tonight. They all look the same.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #161 – November 13, 2014, 03:52:31 PM

Quote from: vinnietbird;440562

Also, if the car had a lot of unburnt fuel, wouldn't that leave a lot of black on the plugs? They are clean, the porcelian under the electrode is white. I can post a pic of one tonight. They all look the same.

Yes. If I force open-loop through the tuner, after 10 minutes of running and pulling the plugs, they have a black coating. The AFRs were around 12:1. That's not to say that it isn't sometimes going lean and cleaning them off.

If easy to get to, you could unplug the o2 sensors. I'm betting that the car would continue to run "good" by keeping it in open loop. Your issue sounds like closed-loop/leaner mixtures are revealing the problem that you are looking into.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #162 – November 13, 2014, 05:11:10 PM

I can unplug the O2 sensors easily. Do you think I should run the car home like that to see if it makes a difference?

It is really strange because this wasn't an issue beforethe heads, cam and rockers were swapped.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #163 – November 13, 2014, 05:24:50 PM

Bottom line here is you have to do several basic tests. Leak down compression and check the AFR fuel; pressure and volume is mandatory. It sounds like open loop is where the car runs the best. So disconnecting the O2 sensors might work but the ECM will institute a base setting of around .5 volts. You might have to install a simulator and vary the voltage to shoot this trouble. I made one from a D cell battery. Also a smoke test i think is mandatory to eliminate possible vacuum leaks. Running the timing all over the place is useless as that engine should run good at 10-14* BTDC. I have never ran higher timing than that. It is unnecessary. And why the engine smokes with different timing settings is a mistery to me as it has nothing to do with that. What color SMOKE!!! So better get back to basics and run some solid old fashioned tests. By the way post the cam specks and compression figures. That will tell me a load of info. Also a wideband is mandatory in my opinion. Just me good luck. By the way forget Codes you have posted numbers that do not relate to this issue.

Rocker adjustment....

Reply #164 – November 13, 2014, 05:32:02 PM

Surging and pops . You are Lean or retarded in ignition or cam. post compression numbers and cam specks. You definitely do not have a TPS issue , The ECM is not setting a code and you closed throttle voltage is in limits. You are LEAN in closed loop. Map is another possibility read it with a digital meter