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Topic: Need engine project advice. (Read 6415 times) previous topic - next topic

Need engine project advice.

Later this summer I'm putting together an engine for my T-Bird, and I'm undecided on a few points, I'm wondering who can draw on their experience and lend a hand.
Parts I am decided on:
64cc GT40X heads
E303 cam
Explorer upper w/internal EGR
Requisite MAF conversion
1 5/8 unequal length shorties
2 1/2 H-pipe (mine is 2")
2 1/2 cat-back

Undecided:
Short block -rebuild my HO, or get a late model 351 and rebuild it instead
Lower intake -pretty much goes with the short block choice, Explorer lower or Lightning lower
Timing set -stock or something else
Oiling -do I want a high volume/pressure pump?

Any good input is appreciated, I've built all manner of other engines, but never a Windsor motor.  I'm making my estimate at 300 HP in the HO or 340-345 HP with the 351.

Need engine project advice.

Reply #1 –
My recommendations:

Std oil pump.  SBF's don't have oiling issues
Dble roller timing set
refresh the short block if it's an HO.

The top end parts you've selected are good 302 upgrades.  The greater airflow potential of a larger engine will suffer with those parts, plus the Windsor entails some additional expense and complication.  A tired but true axom: 302 parts make 302 power.

My suggestion:  Build the small motor with what you've selected and plan for the next one with larger displacement and a top end to match (In my experience, there always seems to be a "next engine"!).

Good luck with your project!

Need engine project advice.

Reply #2 –
i agree with the post above.. i would invest in new pistons, though.. if i remember right, E7's have 62cc chambers? not sure on that, but bumping to a 64cc head will decrease compression.. it would probably put you under 9:1, if the motor isn't already below that already.. i would shoot for 9.5-ish:1 compression, as you can still run pump gas and it's still street friendly, with an extra bit of kick in the pants

also, stay away from HV pumps, they're really only meant for deeper sump pans (IE: 7 quart).. running an HV pump with a standard pan, brings on the potential of running the pan dry, before the returning oil has a chance to reach the pickup tube.. that's not always the case, but it does happen sometimes

and i would stay away from the FRPP letter cams, they're not that great.. as you will see, a lot of guys here are running trick flow, comp, crane or custom grind cams

and as for the timing chain, definitely a performance brand double roller.. stock chains stretch entirely too easily when extra power is gained.. i often run cloyes timing sets, they never let me down.. a bit pricey, but well worth it's rigidity
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3535X9/
ShadowMSC.com < < Still Under Construction

R.I.P. 'Zump' 8/29/86 - 11/11/11
3- 87 TC's / 1 really mean 83 Capri RS / 94 Sonoma SAS Project on 37x12.50 TSL Radials / 88 S10 that's LITERALLY cut to pieces / 84 F150 SAS, 351M, 39.5 TSL's / 85 Toyota regular cab, 22R 5spd, 3/4" drop, my little junkyard save/daily driver

Need engine project advice.

Reply #3 –
I may get some flack for this, but the only thing the alphabet cams are good for is nerds posting idle/rev vids on youtube.

As Shadow said, the hot cams seems to be the TFS Stage 1, and lately, on race forums, I've read a lot of of guys are running crane and comp cams too.

5.0 or 351w, that's a choice you and only you can make....the only difference is of course, the lower intake, and you'll need a Fox swap pan and matching pickup, and keep in mind you can NOT use a 5.0 H pipe. Everything else is the same...myself, I'd probably go with the Windsor block. The difference in parts and their prices is worth the added power (potential) over a 5.0, IMO.
'98 Explorer 5.0
'20 Malibu (I know, Chevy, but, 35MPG. Let's go brandon, eh)

Need engine project advice.

Reply #4 –
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;386008
I may get some flack for this, but the only thing the alphabet cams are good for is nerds posting idle/rev vids on youtube.

:laughing: i have to agree
ShadowMSC.com < < Still Under Construction

R.I.P. 'Zump' 8/29/86 - 11/11/11
3- 87 TC's / 1 really mean 83 Capri RS / 94 Sonoma SAS Project on 37x12.50 TSL Radials / 88 S10 that's LITERALLY cut to pieces / 84 F150 SAS, 351M, 39.5 TSL's / 85 Toyota regular cab, 22R 5spd, 3/4" drop, my little junkyard save/daily driver

Need engine project advice.

Reply #5 –
I'd go with a set of roller gears, I picked some up off ebay for like 50 bucks. The xe high energy cams are good choice. I'd build the 351 if your going to run it for awhile.
88 Turbocoupe: Coast High Performance 331 kit 28oz balance, Comp XE264HR14 cam, 58cc 185 afr heads, 1.7 roller rockers, Mass-Flo EFI (was POS to setup and their techline is a joke at best)
Full 1 5/8 primary equal length headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, Full manual reverse VB c4 and baked off clear coat "BECAUSE RACECAR"

Need engine project advice.

Reply #6 –
you mean the timing gears? they're really a waste of money.. they're not recommended for injected motors, either
ShadowMSC.com < < Still Under Construction

R.I.P. 'Zump' 8/29/86 - 11/11/11
3- 87 TC's / 1 really mean 83 Capri RS / 94 Sonoma SAS Project on 37x12.50 TSL Radials / 88 S10 that's LITERALLY cut to pieces / 84 F150 SAS, 351M, 39.5 TSL's / 85 Toyota regular cab, 22R 5spd, 3/4" drop, my little junkyard save/daily driver

Need engine project advice.

Reply #7 –
I got mine cheaper than a double roller chain, working fine on my 90 mustang sourced motor.

PS why are they supposed to be bad for injected motors? Don't see how fuel going in differently affects that one way or another.
88 Turbocoupe: Coast High Performance 331 kit 28oz balance, Comp XE264HR14 cam, 58cc 185 afr heads, 1.7 roller rockers, Mass-Flo EFI (was POS to setup and their techline is a joke at best)
Full 1 5/8 primary equal length headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, Full manual reverse VB c4 and baked off clear coat "BECAUSE RACECAR"

Need engine project advice.

Reply #8 –
they send bad harmonics through the cam that a chain absorbs.. they also trigger knock sensors (obviously, only if the motor has 1 lol)
ShadowMSC.com < < Still Under Construction

R.I.P. 'Zump' 8/29/86 - 11/11/11
3- 87 TC's / 1 really mean 83 Capri RS / 94 Sonoma SAS Project on 37x12.50 TSL Radials / 88 S10 that's LITERALLY cut to pieces / 84 F150 SAS, 351M, 39.5 TSL's / 85 Toyota regular cab, 22R 5spd, 3/4" drop, my little junkyard save/daily driver

Need engine project advice.

Reply #9 –
First I've heard of it. Btw headers are a pain. Not saying don't do it, just saying omg pain... Not sure how a 351 with headers in one of our cars will fit, but my 302 with headers just about touches everything.
88 Turbocoupe: Coast High Performance 331 kit 28oz balance, Comp XE264HR14 cam, 58cc 185 afr heads, 1.7 roller rockers, Mass-Flo EFI (was POS to setup and their techline is a joke at best)
Full 1 5/8 primary equal length headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, Full manual reverse VB c4 and baked off clear coat "BECAUSE RACECAR"

Need engine project advice.

Reply #10 –
do a google search, it comes up a lot lol
ShadowMSC.com < < Still Under Construction

R.I.P. 'Zump' 8/29/86 - 11/11/11
3- 87 TC's / 1 really mean 83 Capri RS / 94 Sonoma SAS Project on 37x12.50 TSL Radials / 88 S10 that's LITERALLY cut to pieces / 84 F150 SAS, 351M, 39.5 TSL's / 85 Toyota regular cab, 22R 5spd, 3/4" drop, my little junkyard save/daily driver

Need engine project advice.

Reply #11 –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeOn5FjsYAI

A discussion on few commonly used camshafts.  A caution though, the video carries a *child warning*. 

The OP gave a list of what he's chosen. 

I've witnessed cam discussions often get all out of wack on most boards.  Don't wish to see that here. 

Some things I keep in mind on these discussions: 

The majority of engines discussed on this forum are mild streeters topped with GT-40 or comparable intakes and relatively small exhaust (often 1 5/8 shorties). 

This results in peak power in the 5,200-5,600 max range.  The long runner intakes are the primary limiting factor.

The difference between the stock HO cam w/1.7 rockers and the other's mentioned seldom offer a great difference in power, but will have different idle and drivability characteristics (some good, some not). 

The operating range and airflow of these type of combinations just doesn't demand significant cam timing.

As far as picking one over the other?  They'll all run!

Need engine project advice.

Reply #12 –
If you're dead set on GT40X heads I would go for the 58cc heads as long as you're not going to run a blower. You'll get a slight bump in compression and make a bit more power over the 64cc heads. Really though for not that much more money (~$200) you could get a set of Edelbrock Performer (EGR compatable versions of the Performer RPM) or Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads. Both of those heads will make more power than the GT40X heads and curb stomp the GT40X heads in a drag race. I was going to get a set of GT40X heads to replace the GT40Ps I'm running but ended up going with a set of Edelbrock Performer heads, which I still have to put on the car:D.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Need engine project advice.

Reply #13 –
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;386008
I may get some flack for this, but the only thing the alphabet cams are good for is nerds posting idle/rev vids on youtube.

As Shadow said, the hot cams seems to be the TFS Stage 1, and lately, on race forums, I've read a lot of of guys are running crane and comp cams too.

5.0 or 351w, that's a choice you and only you can make....the only difference is of course, the lower intake, and you'll need a Fox swap pan and matching pickup, and keep in mind you can NOT use a 5.0 H pipe. Everything else is the same...myself, I'd probably go with the Windsor block. The difference in parts and their prices is worth the added power (potential) over a 5.0, IMO.
I have heard the alphabet cams are not good. Their profile looks good to me, but I would not run one because I have not heard anything good about them. I also agree about the 351w. 5.0 is good enough for me, but if you have the cash to spend on a major build, 5.8 would be worth it.

Need engine project advice.

Reply #14 –
Thanks guys, I'm loving all the advice, as a point of clarification, I'm sticking with the 64cc GT40X.  I'm getting them brand new and assembled from my parts dept for $500 (for the pair), which means the price is right.  They will be going for some milling, and I'll be porting them a bit.  However, based on the nearly unanimous ire for letter cams, I've decided to run a TFS stage 1 221/225.  I hope you'll forgive me for being a bit naive. I, working in a Ford service department, tend to look close to home for parts.  Also, I believe the solution for the header problem, should I build a 351, would be these http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BBK-1511/ If anybody has used them, I'd like to know what you think.