No start...again

Topic: No start...again (Read 3275 times) previous topic - next topic

No start...again

January 21, 2008, 08:36:09 PM

After everything was fine it seemed, I went to bleed my coolant system and it was taking awhile to warm up so I put the car into drive to put a load on the motor. It began to surge up and down before the thing died and it won't start...again. This is the same problem we had Saturday night that seemed to go away yesterday after doing a bunch of tweaking. Saturday we had 38psi fuel and had spark but it wouldn't start. I'm assuming this is the case now also but most of my gauges and such aren't with me anymore.

What would cause this?! We ran a new ground wire to the block and it apparently didn't help. Ignition coil is new and we have power at the coil on both wires. We have spark. Next step?

Its not even acting like its firing and I'm not sure why. TFI module?

No start...again

Reply #1 – January 21, 2008, 09:12:51 PM

...after it sat for 30 minutes, it fired right up again.

I'm leaning towards TFI or PIP

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Reply #2 – January 21, 2008, 09:55:50 PM

I can't get it to die again...any ideas? I need a problem that I can reproduce, not one that fixes itself randomly.

On another note, I got the system bled and thermostat and heater are working properly/in unison again. No more tstat open, temp drops, heater cold, tstat close, temps rise, heater gets a little warm, tstat open...all while the gauge is going crazy.

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Reply #3 – January 21, 2008, 09:56:35 PM

any codes after the surge up and down?

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Reply #4 – January 21, 2008, 10:18:24 PM

Just EGR 33 which never goes away, old engine or new (same throttle body, egr, iac). It isn't opening apparently but its not the valve as its fine with vacuum applied. I'll get to this problem someday.

I'm banging around on things and moving wires around and its acting like nothing's wrong. It won't die again.

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Reply #5 – January 21, 2008, 10:28:53 PM

was it running and warmed up when it died? or did it die of the startup?

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Reply #6 – January 21, 2008, 10:48:14 PM

It was running for a few minutes but taking too long to warm up (its like 25 degrees right now) so I put it into drive, it surged I think 3 times, getting lower and lower in the rpm's, before it died and wouldn't start. Something was up with either the timing at that point or the injectors weren't firing. I can't think of any other reason.

Vacuum is I think 16-19 at idle and revs to like 24-25 at 2000 rpm's normally. Idle is ~1100rpm's when in park and ~700-850 according to the "factory gauge" when in drive depending on if its warmed up or not. It was idling at like 800 when I first put it into drive for a second or so before it began to surge.

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Reply #7 – January 21, 2008, 10:52:49 PM

...I was supposed to get a call back from Ford but they didn't call so I called them back. "Oh, that department closed early today due to the holiday." Thanks to the earlier person who told me they were open till 10pm. Another two joyful days of having to use a relatives car for commuting instead of only one. I was hoping to get facts on what they charge for electrical diagnostics, what if it can't be reproduced, what if they "fix" something that wasn't the problem to begin with, etc. I'm tired of dealing with these little problems that aren't logical.

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Reply #8 – January 21, 2008, 11:05:39 PM

You'll pay them for diagnostics and won't know a bit more than now...

Possibly it loaded up and flooded, IF it does it again hold it to the floor while cranking... Will activate the dechoke mode and shut off the injectors...

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Reply #9 – January 21, 2008, 11:07:56 PM

Already tried that, it wouldn't start when holding it down. I need to find how to check the pickup coil as that'll be my next step tomorrow. All my diagnostic stuff, except a couple parts like multimeter, code reader, etc are all still up in Seattle. I thought we had this fixed because of a new ground wire but I was wrong.

I'm telling you, it doesn't make a bit of sense. Either way, I'm still leaning towards no PIP signal or screwy ignition from the TFI module. I don't know how to test it when its working fine though.

edit:
Also, thats why I was waiting for a call from Ford - to see exactly under which cirspoogestances I owe them money and when I don't. If this dealer is one of them "pay whether or not we find the problem" locations, I'll look elsewhere or start throwing parts onto/into the distributor.

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Reply #10 – January 21, 2008, 11:10:51 PM

I'm guessing it was getting fuel when it wouldn't start

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Reply #11 – January 21, 2008, 11:16:25 PM

Perhaps. Fuel pressure doesn't mean much without watching the injector pulse though. If I can get it to die again, I need to check for that. Whatever it is, it is completely intermittent. I've tried all the plugs, contacts, etc of connectors at the coil, distrubutor, "salt and pepper" things by the intake, etc and none of them fixed the problem, nor does moving wires around so I don't "think" its a contact/wire issue.

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Reply #12 – January 21, 2008, 11:50:33 PM

When it dies see if you get spark. If not you know it's an ignition problem. I had an intermitent problem with my 95 doing the stalling thing for no reason. It was the pip sensor. If you have no sprak when it stalls then it's probably either the pip or tfi module.

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Reply #13 – January 22, 2008, 12:41:16 AM

Yeah, I'll have to check that again if I can get it die again. On Sunday morning when it wouldn't start (first saw the problem on Saturday night when I got up there - it was dark and cold so it was put off until Sunday) we had spark though and fuel pressure at the engine.

I'll check the black connector tomorrow and see if its loose as it controls injectors and the idle air valve. Its possible the surging had to do with the IAC not working right and the fuel injectors cut out due to the same problem with the connector. The contacts are clean on it though and pushing it together didn't help earlier. I would think that if it were loose, it would have had a problem during the drive back last night.

I'm about ready to just buy an entire new distributor and drop it in - new everything. Is the Motorcraft TFI module really $150 by itself?! Pickup coil is another $70.

Edit:
Last question for the night:
What should the voltage be reading at the coil's connector when the engine is cranking? It may be related or not, who knows, but I figured I'd look into it. Cranking, I get ~10v at the connector (digital multimeter), 11.5v with engine in run position without engine running, no idea what I get when the engine's running. I'm assuming the lower voltage is only because its pulsing but who knows. I just don't like how any of these aftermarket coils are 7400 ohms when the factory one was a couple thousand more.

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Reply #14 – January 22, 2008, 09:35:15 AM

OK remember this... It takes spark, fuel pressure & INJECTOR PULSE for the engine to run... If it has spark.... It's a fuel problem...

The TFI or PIP is not the problem IF it has spark... Same signal that fires the coil is also sent to the EEC to let it know to fire the injectors... Doesn't leave much huh??? Just a bunch of wiring, a EEC relay and maybe the EEC(I doubt that)... Possibly it has a interment loss of fuel pressure(maybe the F/P relay or fuel cut off is flaky)...

As far as Ford diagnosing the problem, dream on... If it ain't happnin' they won't have a clue what to do... I'll gaurentee they will either tell you to bring it back when the problem reoccurs, or just start throwing parts at it...