Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 June 11, 2007, 02:33:20 PM So apperently I am getting vapor lock on my engine. '83 'Bird, 302 edelbrock performer RPM intake and 4 barrel Carb. I am not running a thermostat in the car because I figured it would help it to run cooler. Should I run a thermostat? What temp should it be? The car runs at about 180° without a thermostat I have an autometer gauge installed. I am going to replace the steel line running from the manual fuel pump with a rubber one (the steel one is kinked anyhow). I had to sit at the gas station the other day for 45mins waiting for the car to cool down enough for it to start. When the temp gauge was reading above 150° it would crank real slow until it wouldn't even crank at all. I thought the battery was going dead, but if you let it sit for a little bit it would crank again, but not start. As soon as the temp gauge read lower than 150°, it started. Its very frustrating, any suggestions?UpdateWith CatJam just around the corner, and the fact that I was getting because I couldn't drive my car anywhere because I would have to wait for it to cool down to start again, I decided to get off my butt and get some work done. Made a trip to Summit Racing and picked up the Ford Racing mini starter with wiring harness (I probably could have gotten it cheaper somewhere else, but if I had any problems, I could easily return it to Summit), a heat wrap for the new starter, a Mr. Gasket 180° thermostat, new thermostat gasket, and some sealant. So last Sunday I decided was the day to do the work. First I did the Thermostat so the car wasn't hot from testing the starter. Went nice and easy. Then came the time to do the starter. Removed the bottom bolt without any trouble, but the top bolt was a pita to get to. So I removed the passenger front tire, and viola, all that was needed was the socket, a 3" extension and a wratchet, and I was able to reach in through the K-member and all wnet easy. Removed the old starter, old wiring, installed the new stuff torqued it all down wired it up and it started without any problems. No leaks from the thermostat. So I took it for a drive warmed the engine gauge read just a little above 180°, and then the thermostat must have fully opened, because it drpped down to just above 150°. After about an hour of running it, I shut it off, turned the key, and it fired right up. Only down side is now my car sounds like a Mopar when it starts. Now I just need to get the car all washed up and looking pretty for CatJam. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #1 – June 11, 2007, 03:38:55 PM You need to run a stat. The lack of one doesn't help cooling. I suppose since you're carbed, you could use a 160*, but I tend to not go any lower than a 180* myself.Is it boiling out of the carb? Use a phenolic spacer perhaps? Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #2 – June 12, 2007, 07:20:24 AM Quote from: Chuck W;153447Is it boiling out of the carb? Use a phenolic spacer perhaps?Not that I can tell. Frm all of the searching I've done, vapor lock seems to be the culprit. I am going to do little things to try get it to run cooler, such as replacing the steel fuel line with a rubber one, I'll try the phenolic spacer, and Summit sells this stuff called water wetter, supposed to reduce the temp by up to 30°. I know this stuff actually works, because I use it im my truck. When towing long distances it had a tendancy to get a little hot if I had the AC running. If all of that fails than it may be time for an aluminum radiator. I already removed the AC cooler/condenser? from in front of the radiator and installed a flex fan. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #3 – June 12, 2007, 10:11:22 AM You need to put a thermostat in or at least a housing from a thermostat with the guts removed. The coolant will move too fast to cool properly in the radiator without anything in the t-stat housing. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #4 – June 12, 2007, 02:33:42 PM Slow cranking isn't caused by vapour lock, it's caused by a weak battery or starter that's affected by heat. Do you have headers, and if so, are they wrapped, especially in the starter area, and in the areas where the fuel lines are near?Vapour lock is when the fuel in the lines and pump gets hot enough to turn into vapour, essentially emptying the fuel pump cavity and causing the pump to lose its prime (as the vapour builds it drives the fuel back into the tank - it then maintains a slight amount of pressure, preventing the fuel pump from pulling up any fuel). It generally happens in the fuel line BEFORE the pump, which is under suction when the engine is running. It's much less common in the pump-to-carb line as that is under pressure, which discourages vapours from forming. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #5 – June 12, 2007, 03:08:59 PM Quote from: 88sportcoupe;153758You need to put a thermostat in or at least a housing from a thermostat with the guts removed. The coolant will move too fast to cool properly in the radiator without anything in the t-stat housing.Really !! I'll have to think about that for awhile. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #6 – June 12, 2007, 03:24:14 PM Quote from: 88sportcoupe;153758You need to put a thermostat in or at least a housing from a thermostat with the guts removed. The coolant will move too fast to cool properly in the radiator without anything in the t-stat housing.Nein. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #7 – June 12, 2007, 03:32:40 PM Quote from: Thunder Chicken;153815Slow cranking isn't caused by vapour lock, it's caused by a weak battery or starter that's affected by heat.That was my first guess, they guy at the gas station said he was positive that it was vapor lock.Quote from: Thunder Chicken;153815 Do you have headers, and if so, are they wrapped, especially in the starter area, and in the areas where the fuel lines are near?I have the factory mustang shorties on it. They are not wrapped this was something else I was considering doing.So I think that we have it narrowed down to three things, the battery is , the starter is getting too hot and causing slow cranking, or the timing is too far advanced. The battery and timing are easy to check, I will keep everyone posted. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #8 – June 15, 2007, 04:22:54 PM the alternator would have nothign to do with starting, unless it's not charging while driving, and your trying to start with a dead battery,I would go to your local napa store and buy all the parts and bits to cange all of your starting cables to 0/1 gauge ..same with the main ground, Starter may be a huge issue....Had the same issue in my truck, freshly built motor. changed the oil at 200 miles...problem solved, What are the temps outside, what kind of oil do you run ? i would replace the starter during the whole oredeal, and not worry about it any more, you can buy a starter sheild wrapp thing, that'll work awsome too, GL Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #9 – June 15, 2007, 09:45:00 PM timing is to high Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #10 – June 16, 2007, 09:42:53 AM Quote from: 460 turbo truck;154493the alternator would have nothign to do with starting, unless it's not charging while driving, and your trying to start with a dead battery,I meant starter was getting too hot, I probably put alternator, because the alternator on my dd f150 just went out. Will fix it in original post. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #11 – August 11, 2007, 02:03:17 PM Quote from: softtouch;153824Really !! I'll have to think about that for awhile. Trust him, he's right. The radiator is designed using air flow / coolant flow ratios that if tampered with, will not allow the radiator to cool efficiently. Too much flow of the coolant, it doesn't have time to cool down before it goes back to the engine. Too much air flow, the turbulence over the cooling fins can actually act as an insulator and reduce efficiency. You want it cooler, gotta do a bigger radiator, but even then, you STILL want that t-stat. It helps more in the winter than the summer, by getting the engine temp up to operating level quicker. As for the starting issue, it sounds more like something's going amiss with the timing when it's hot. You're carbed, but are you still using the electronic ignition system? Duraspark? If so, is the TFI module mounted on the dizzy right next to the top radiator hose and in direct line of flow from the fan? Move the TFI somewhere else. This is a common problem on the 5.0's and 3.8's. You may have a different problem from vapor lock. If you don't have an insulating spacer between the intake and the carb, you may be boiling the fuel in the bowl(s) and filling the intake with fuel after you shut the engine off. The carb is self cooling while running because the air going through the venturis produces a refrigrating effect. Shut off the engine, engine heat rises, fuel in bowl will boil rather quicklu. I had a 76 Mercury Monarch with a factory Motorcraft 2150 2 bbl on top of a 302. I couldn't find the original leather spacer for the carb to intake, so I put in a "performance" aluminum spacer. VERY BAD move. It performed quite well when the car was cold, but like you, I found myself waiting for the car to cool and vapors in the intake to clear before I could get it to start again. Needless to say, I found a phenolic replacement for the leather one that worked much better. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #12 – August 11, 2007, 11:37:57 PM Quote from: Old_Paint;167979Trust him, he's right. The radiator is designed using air flow / coolant flow ratios that if tampered with, will not allow the radiator to cool efficiently. Too much flow of the coolant, it doesn't have time to cool down before it goes back to the engine.Doesn't that mean the coolent is also moving through the engine faster? Less time to get hot. Seems like it would all balance out. Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #13 – August 12, 2007, 03:10:06 PM Have we verified if this guage is in fact working properly? Have we measured the temperature in any other way BESIDES the guage? Quote Selected
Starting Problems Updated 7-2-08 Reply #14 – August 12, 2007, 03:21:48 PM Quote from: softtouch;168127Doesn't that mean the coolent is also moving through the engine faster? Less time to get hot. Seems like it would all balance out.You want the coolant to get hot. The coolant draws the heat from the engine, then sits in the radiator to get cool, then draws it out of the engine, and then sits to get cool.If it never stays in the engine long enough to draw the heat, what good does it do? Quote Selected
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