Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #45 – January 23, 2007, 10:05:31 AM Sure, a STOCK GT 550HP BLOWN 5.4 might have more HP then the LS7's N/A#s. Throw a blower on the LS7, then what? Yeah, I thought so. I never said the mods were bad under boost (quite the opposite actually) I said they were bad N/A. They simply do not have enough ci to use all that technology UNLESS they're boosted. So yes, grab a Terminator or Lightning crate and go to town. But for a smaller, lighter package you can have a n/a LS motor do 90% of a BLOWN mods power or MORE. Or you can forced induction the LS and have a smaller lighter package that will flat-out embaress the mod. And Ls's have been in 97-07 Vette's, 98-02 Camaros/Firebirds, 98-07 Chevy/GMC trucks, 98-07 Chevy/GMC vans, 06-up W-Body FWD's, etc, etc. There's a LOT of LS's out there. When a "old school no-tech" 2v pushrod V8's head flows MORE then the 4v DOHC head there's a problem, and that's what we have. The SHO's DOHC Yamaha-built V6 was designed MANY years AFTER the 3800 hit the board. On paper it should easily mop the n/a Series II's butt, it just doesn't. It takes the SHO soooooo long to get into the powerband that the GP is gone. I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the GTP club that agree with me (world's fastest street driven, full-bodied, SC3800 goes 9.32 with FWD). There's at least 5 members of the Portland chapter in the 12's with their daily drivers.That TT GT wouldn't even make the Top 100 fastest LSx list. It struggled with 10's before being booted for no cage. Kurt Urban's LS2 Nova did Hot Rod's Drag Week averaging bottom 9's on twin blowers. Parish's Silverado averaged bottom 10's (10.06 best) on a single-turbo LS1 with A/C, heat, full luxury, AND towed a 10,000LB trailer to boot. The Black WS6 at the Pump Gas Drags is a legit street-driven car with A/C and a full leather interior on 93 Octane pump gas running 8's. That GT needed C16 to make it's 1200HP. The Mod has been around longer then the LS, has had more factory re-engineering, and still can't beat the smaller, lighter, pushrod motor. Hot Rod got 632 RWHP out of a 100% stock LS7 with a tune and the GM Stage I Hot-Cam. I stand by my statement, the Mod is a DOG unless you boost it, and even then it's not stellar. I wonder if Joe Morgan's lowly 2.3T goes faster and makes more power then the world's best boosted 4.6? It just might. Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #46 – January 23, 2007, 10:11:36 AM Man, you've really got a hard on for the LS series engines, don't you? Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #47 – January 23, 2007, 11:29:09 AM I like a LOT of engines, just not the Mod Dog motor. I have an LS2, AMC 401 Dog-Leg, Buick 401 Nailhead, 3800 Series II, KA24DE, Porsche 2.5 slant-4, and 3 2.3T motors in the garage (or in a car) right now. I've assembled Ford 302W's, AMC 360/390/401's, Chevy 350's, Subaru Flat-4 OHC's, Porsche 2.5 slant 4's, Rambler 327's, and a host of others I can't remember along with quite a few 2.3T's. I'm not a "1-brand" guy, I like just about any car (I despise anyhting to do with VW) and I like building engines. The Mod motor is a dog, and I called it out. I'm just backing it up with various examples (like the Northstar, the LS, and the W small-block). I'd LOVE to see the Boss/Hurricane develop, pushrod or not. The mod's HUGE weakness (other then ci) is that the heads really don't flow to the potential they could. The 3v is a HUGE leap for these engines (it's now flowing better then the 4v) but it's going to take a complete re-vamp to get it "right". Remember back in 93 when the LT1 debuted in the FBod? It was a failure. It was just a standard 350 SBC with reverse-cooling and a horrible ignition with a decent set of heads. The all-new LSx motor in 98 will kill ANY SBC. That's what Ford needs to do. Take all the lessons learned on the mod, and apply all the good stuff to a new engine, even if that means OHC's. A 360ci DOHC 4v all-aluminum engine with heads that flowed at least 300cfm would rock the planet. A 281/331 that struggles to flow 250 ported will always be a step behind. Check out some sand rail forums to see what the Northstar is doing. Those guys LOVE that engine and TT 600-800HP rails are the "common norm". And they pull them from JY's. It's pretty impressive. Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #48 – January 23, 2007, 01:11:42 PM I don't understand. A valve is still opened and closed be it by an overhead cam or one in the block, why dog the ohc? It just has less parts to bend and brake. Its obvious that the lsx has nothing more than a cubic inch advantage over the mod motor. Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #49 – January 23, 2007, 01:49:23 PM Quote from: ThunderChickenThe 330-345 horsepower LS1 in an F-body would be slapped silly by a 390-horse 4.6 Terminator (and would likely be closely matched by a 330-horse 3-valve Shelby GTthe GTO rated at 350 HP lost quite a few acceleration tests to the '05 3v 300 HP Mustang as well. It was a major reason for a motor revision the following year. I've seen Automatic 3v Mustangs with similar mods to mine run consistent 13.2's and 13.3's. A simple gear swap from the stock 3.31's to 3.73's in mine would make mine a 12 second car. I'm gonna cheat and put a blower on it with 3.55's instead:D WHY you say? 'Cause right now the Cougar IS faster. The major decidin factor between the LSx motors and the Mod motors besides valvetrain layout is sheer displacement. Shrink an LS2 to 280 cubic inches and tell me what kind of #'s it makes.....Like the old saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement" Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #50 – January 23, 2007, 01:49:24 PM Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125248Sure, a STOCK GT 550HP BLOWN 5.4 might have more HP then the LS7's N/A#s. Throw a blower on the LS7, then what? Yeah, I thought so. actually) I said they were bad N/A.But you said the magic word: STOCK. GM has never, to my knowledge, ever released a forced induction LSx engine in any vehicle in any market. Rumour has it that they're going to in a future "super Vette", but right now, they don't. Right now, 600+ horses is just a pulley change and tune away on the SC'd 5.4. What would it take to put the LS7 over the 600 horse mark?You're comparing a 330 cubic engine to a 427 cubic inch engine, and growling that the 330 only outguns the 427 because of forced induction. That sounds exactly as bad as the NA Cobra guys growling that the LS1 F-bodies would outrun them only because of bigger engines, or like a Honda V6 Accord driver growling because that supercharged Grand Prix GTP only managed to keep up with him because it's supercharged. Regardless of what method the Mod engines use to outclass the LSx engines, they just do.Oh, and you asked about the world's fastest mod? How about J.R. Granatelli's 6.75-second @ 206MPH mod-engined Mustang? Last I checked, 6.75@206 is faster than 6.86@205...The Twin Turbo GT, BTW, should soon be making over 1500 horses when it gets its new turbochargers putting out 28 lbs of boost. Not bad for 330ci... Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #51 – January 23, 2007, 01:52:02 PM QuoteThe Twin Turbo GT, BTW, should soon be making over 1500 horses when it gets its new turbochargers putting out 28 lbs of boost. Not bad for 330ci...My buddy got rid of his motor in the race car and a new one is getting fine tuned right now. Stroker 351, vortech, 28 pounds of boost, 1300 Horse......I'll get pictures soon.... Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #52 – January 23, 2007, 02:09:22 PM Quote from: Paul Flockhart;125266Like the old saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement"Actually, there is a replacement. There's an example of this replacement hanging off the exhaust manifold of Michael's own car :D Every manufacturer has used this "replacement", including GM (Buick 3.8 Turbo, Buick 3800 SC, Sunbird 1.8 turbo, Sprint 1.0 turbo, Ecotech 2.0 turbo/2.0 supercharged, and the rumoured blown 7.0 Super Vette coming out to compete with the 500ci 600-horse Viper, to name just a few) Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #53 – January 23, 2007, 02:14:48 PM That's not a replacement.....it's an added bonus;) Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #54 – January 23, 2007, 08:07:37 PM The difference is effieciency. The ports on an LSx outflow the ports on a 4v mod stock-for-stock and ported-for-ported. More air = more power. Kinda like a 302 breathes better then a flathead. The LS7 needs a $200 cam to make 632HP n/a. I was throwing out the GT cause it takes the biggest, baddest, most exclusive Mod WITH a blower to top the far cheaper n/a LSx. Compare price-point to price-point and the LS walks the Mod in every class. The Hemi loses because DCX charges sooo much for them. It's a better motor too though. Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #55 – January 23, 2007, 08:27:18 PM You know, unless you're planning on dropping an LS-whatever or a Magnum motor into your Fox, what is the point of over 1/2 this thread?The original poster was talking about Mod motor swaps into Ford cars...not whether the LS-X motors are far superior to anything else in the galaxy this side of FTL drives. All this head flow rate is splitting hairs, especially when talking about what are for the most part going to be street cars. Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #56 – January 23, 2007, 09:57:56 PM Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125319The difference is effieciency. The ports on an LSx outflow the ports on a 4v mod stock-for-stock and ported-for-ported. More air = more power. Kinda like a 302 breathes better then a flathead. The LS7 needs a $200 cam to make 632HP n/a. I was throwing out the GT cause it takes the biggest, baddest, most exclusive Mod WITH a blower to top the far cheaper n/a LSx. Compare price-point to price-point and the LS walks the Mod in every class. The Hemi loses because DCX charges sooo much for them. It's a better motor too though.There are no real "compare price point to price point" options, given the completely different classes of cars these engines are installed into, but if you insist:A (well optioned) $30k Mustang will outrun a (no longer produced) $35k GTO, and will slap an LS3 (or whatever the FWD 5.3-liter LSx engine is called) $30k Impala SS silly, but is incomparable to a faster $45k LS2 Corvette. A $45k Shelby GT500 will eat an LS2 Corvette's lunch, but will be beaten by a $75k Z06. Ford doesn't have a $75k Z06 competitor, but a $150k GT will eat a Z06's lunch. Likewise, Chevy doesn't have a $150k GT competitor, which is why I say "price point to price point" is not a real option.As for efficiency, well, an N/A 4.6 3-valve generates the same power as an N/A 5.7 LS1 (as last installed into F-bodies) and does so with a 64 cubic inch disadvantage, so the mod engine is clearly more efficient. More air = more power? That's what the supercharger is for.I'll admit that when the two-valve engine made its debut it was a dog, but it was designed in the late 80's and produced in the early 90's, back when EVERYTHING was a dog. The 280-horse 4-valve was very competitive with anything else short of an exotic car when it made its debut in the 1993 Mark VIII. The PI two valve was an improvement over the original two valve, but the modular engine really started coming into its own with the blown TWO-VALVE Lightning (that took 500 cubic inches and 10 cylinders, not to mention a $50k+ price tag, to defeat as the world's fastest truck). The Terminator was an improvement over the Lightning engine (making more power with a smaller engine), and the three valve is an improvement over both the two valve and the N/A four valve. The FOUR VALVE GT and GT500 engines are in turn improvements over the Lightning's two valve engine. In other words, the engine family has been evolving and improving dramatically, just like the LSx engines, and cubic inch for cubic inch, are way, WAY more efficient, blown or not.But I digress. Chuck's right. If you've got a hard on for LSx engines, use an LSx engine. Just don't whine when a stock Terminator-powered car hands you your ass (unless you're gonna buy the really, REALLY expensive LS7, in which case for the same or less money you could always use a slightly modified GT500 engine for more power). Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #57 – January 24, 2007, 12:55:25 AM Somebody asked about Mod motors as swaps, and I gave the facts. If you have a hard-on for a particular motor because Ford made it, all the better for you. I have no love for any one brand. I'd just as soon slap the AMC 401 into a TC as I'd slap an LSx into an AMX. You have your opinions, and I have mine. Facts are there are three different companies making LSx swap kits for fox-chassis Fords as off-the-shelf, bolt-in kits and exactly zero manufacturers doing Mod kits. The Mod's (especially the DOHC and the 5.4's) are HUGE and really don't take well to swapping (ie- cutting the shock towers out of a 65-70 Mustang, etc). My opinion, that is thus far being supported by the near ZERO aftermarket, is that the Mods will go down as underperforming N/A dogs and the only "respected" ones will be the cars that originally came with blown versions (ie- Terminator, GT, GT500, Lightning). You'll NEVER find a Mod in my driveway until something drastic happens with them (Like a 3v 5.4 or a blown version for less then an arm and a leg crate).BTW, that Camaro is not the world's fastest LSx. Australia is home to 2 High 5-second twin-turbo cars. Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #58 – January 24, 2007, 04:26:32 AM I wonder what would happen if GM made 4.6 and 5.4 LSx motors and threw eatons on top? Really going to think hard on this one... Ford's got some serious R&D to do before any of us can be proud of the mods (from a performance aspect). <[COLOR="White"]IMHO[/COLOR]Till then I'll keep dreaming of my dart block 408T :D Quote Selected
Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND Reply #59 – January 24, 2007, 09:35:35 AM The 5.3 DOD LS4 FWD makes a computer-limited 303HP. In the RWD truck version it's 310HP/335FtLbs with the LS heads (a Vortec-head version is also available @295HP). Seeing as how 400HP LS2's (6.0) are routinely putting 500+ to the wheels with a Magnusun as the only add-on, I'd say the 5.3 would be around 440HP on the boost if it wasn't shoved into a truck chassis. A Ford motor I would like to see come here (hell the whole car) is the European spec Focus RS Turbo. That 4-Cyl makes phenominal power. Of course, it wouldn't swap into a fox.Here's some fox swaps that are available: 302/351W, 351C, 429/460, LSx, SBC, 2.3/2.3T, 4.0V6. I have seen mods swapped in (interestingly, only Terminator motors, and the MM&FF project car with the Lightning 5.4) as well as a 428CJ FE motor, an AMC 360, a SC3.8, and a BBC. Of course the 385-series makes sense from a power standpoint, but they're HEAVY even with aluminum heads. The various SBF's aren't anything different, as the mods aren't either. I like the 2.3T and the 4.0 swap. I find it interesting that the V6 guys found a V6 to stick with instead of stepping up to the V8's. Some of those guys are making AWESOME power to boot. The most interesting fox swap I've seen is the 500ci Caddy motor on spray that goes LOW 9's. Quote Selected
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