Bill Ford steps down..

Topic: Bill Ford steps down.. (Read 5059 times) previous topic - next topic

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #15 – September 06, 2006, 08:43:50 PM

Quote from: Thunder Chicken

Chrome302Jr: The Windsors are gone. They are not coming back. The mod engines faltered out of the gate but are finally becoming good engines. They produce power that is competitive with import engines of similar displacement, often for far less money. 300 horses out of a 4.6 liter 3-valve engine is not too shabby. 500 out of a 5.4 4-valve is quite impressive, supercharger or not. The modular engines are here to stay, and that's finally starting to be a good thing.

As for transmission, Ford is leading the (domestic) industry with its 5-speed automatics, CVT's and now six-speed automatics. Transmissions are one of the few things Ford has done right.

I guess we got the only POS Taurus/Sable Ford put out. :rolleyes:

After talking with several Taurus/Sable owners, I know that they have quality consistency issues, regardless of what I read. I believe personal experience over reading opinions.

As far as Ford leading in the transmission area, Im really confused here. The F150 still uses a traditional 4spd auto, as do many other Ford vehicles. The Titan on the other hand uses a 5spd auto, which performs much better moving a heavy load. So Im not quite sure we're on the same page here.

As far as the mod motor, yeah its been around, but the earlier models were plaqued with spark plug blow out issues/stripping and valvetrain issues. The newer 3V 4.6 and 5.4 have spark plug issues also, however they now break off inside the head during removal and there is also the cam phasor knocking issue. So, and I can say this because I OWN a mod motor, they have not been refined to the point of working out the bugs. I dont see why an OHV is totally out of the question for Ford, both GM and DC use them with great success. If Ford is set on using the OHC deisgn, then they need to take a look at the foreign OHC engines that have been reliable over the years. Nissan is currently using an OHC design producing gobs of HP/TRQ compared to the 5.4L in the F150. They say that the 5.4L is producing "300HP", but any 04-06 F150 driver will tell you, some of those horses ran off. They rate that "300" at an RPM range that you will never reach, and in a truck you need low end grunt. You have to be willing to compare Ford vehicles to their major competition, and it seems they are not measuring up.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #16 – September 06, 2006, 09:22:12 PM

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Transmissions are one of the few things Ford has done right.

Guess they really have learned from their mistakes (the ones they put in our cars)... :rolleyes:

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #17 – September 06, 2006, 09:23:05 PM

Quote from: chrome302jr

Actually, that agrees with my initial statement, that Fords QUALITY ASSURANCE sucks. One vehicle will be flawless and one vehicle will be a defect, its the toss of the coin which one you will get. Proper quality assurance programs seek to eliminate the occurance of defective products.

I was kinda aiming at your statement that Taurus'/Sable's/Tempo's/Topaz's sucked as a whole

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I will, however, agree that Fords quality assurance sucks, but I don't feel that it's stuck to one particular model of vehicle (which I think you implied), much less one specific company. Do some vehicles have more problems than others? Yes. Is buying a new car from Ford like playing russian roulette? Yes. Is Ford the "only" company that has this problem? No. Other companies have the same problems, they just handle them differently/better, or work hard at keeping those problems under wraps. IMHO buying any new car is a lot like getting your balls caught in the vice grips, your kinda ed if you do, ed if you don't. I think the idea is to find something that'll ya the least, it might be in a Ford, it might be in a Honda, you can never know.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #18 – September 06, 2006, 09:35:26 PM

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Transmissions are one of the few things Ford has done right.

- the taurus

The AOD has always been pretty decent. No more, no less...

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #19 – September 06, 2006, 10:19:52 PM

Quote from: chrome302jr

The F150 still uses a traditional 4spd auto, as do many other Ford vehicles. The Titan on the other hand uses a 5spd auto, which performs much better moving a heavy load. So Im not quite sure we're on the same page here.

The Ranger, Explorer and Mustang all use 5-speed automatics. Ford is in co-development with GM on a six-speed auto (now found under Escalades) that will be under F150's (as well as GMT900 trucks) soon. Ford has a CVT in the Five Hundred. Ford will be introducing a six-speed automatic in the Zephyr, and soon in all of its midsize FWD/AWD vehicles.

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As far as the mod motor, yeah its been around, but the earlier models were plaqued with spark plug blow out issues/stripping and valvetrain issues. The newer 3V 4.6 and 5.4 have spark plug issues also, however they now break off inside the head during removal and there is also the cam phasor knocking issue. So, and I can say this because I OWN a mod motor, they have not been refined to the point of working out the bugs.

...And Toyota V6's blow head gaskets. Honda 4-cyls burn oil. VW, BMW and Mercedes have all seen serious quality problems over the past decade, and even the almighty Toyota is about to face a shiznitstorm with quality issues - it's such a problem that Toyota has stopped production or deayed introduction on many models until the issues are resolved. Many aluminum head engines have issues with the plug holes stripping (which is why I think the manufacturer claims of 100k miles between tune ups are pure evil). And although you may own a mod motor I bet I've worked on more vehicles with 'em - two valve models mainly, but I've worked on many, many cop cars (cop cars are how I make my living). I've seen probably hundreds of police cars "traded in" for new ones, and the old ones have well over 200k miles, some over 300k miles, and I've seen one 4.6 in particular with over 460,000 miles (in a three year old airport taxi). The RCMP policy is to keep cop cars until 120k miles (200k km) and then if the vehicle has any major repairs required it's traded in. Very few are traded in at anywhere near 120k miles, and even at 200k miles it's usually brake problems that render the car obsolete. There is a reason police stick to the Crown Vic, and it certainly ain't performance - the things are just plain tough as nails. While I hear many police officers lamenting the lack of power in the two-valve I don't hear any complaints on their reliability.

Your 300 horses are present and accounted for in your truck, they're just saddled with a fat cowboy, so to speak. Ever had your truck on the scales? The latest generation F150 is HEAVY.

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I dont see why an OHV is totally out of the question for Ford, both GM and DC use them with great success.

Ever look at GM and DC's market share figures? Ford ain't the only one with problems, and I'd hardly use the words "great success" in the same sentence as GM. Ever read a road test on a GM car with a pushrod engine? The word "Crude" will invariable appear, and words like that do not sell cars. GM got rid of the old 2.5 and 2.2 pushrod 4-cyls in favour of the DOHC Ecotech. The 3.4/5 and 3.8/9 are gradually being replaced by the 3.6 DOHC "High Feature" V6. In small trucks the 4.3 has been tossed in favour of the 4.2 DOHC (and 3.5 DOHC inline 5). The difference is where Toyota and Honda offer engines like the 3.6 DOHC "High Feature" to all V6 Camry/Accord buyers, GM expects their buyers to pay extra.

The Corvette has been sucessful with its pushrod engine, but Corvettes don't bring Camry buyers into the showroom. Indeed, I would bet that a good portion of Corvette buyers would buy a Corvette regardless of what's under the hood - they just want the pen 15e bottle shape and Corvette name. GM knows this. Unfortunately this "gotta have it" attitude does not "trickle down" to Impalas.

Similarly, DC has had success with the HEMI brand name, but that success is waning as the novelty wears off. The majority of Magnum/300/Chargers on the road are equipped with DOHC V6 engines, BTW. All Neons/Calibres, Sebrings, Dakotas, most Jeeps (except the Wrangler and Hemi versions of the Grand Cherokee), most Rams, and just about every vehicle in the DC lineup has OHC engines.

I agree, pushrod engines are a good thing in a truck where low end grunt is more important than high RPM power, but for some reason GM and Dodge cannot move as many trucks as Ford.

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If Ford is set on using the OHC deisgn, then they need to take a look at the foreign OHC engines that have been reliable over the years. Nissan is currently using an OHC design producing gobs of HP/TRQ compared to the 5.4L in the F150.

The 5.6 liter 4-valve V8 in the Titan produces 305 horses, a whopping 5-HP advantage over Ford's smaller, 3-valve 5.4. The Titan makes 379 lb-ft of torque @ 3600 RPM, a huge 14 lb-ft advantage over Ford's smaller 5.4 at 365 @ 3750. So what lesson is it that Ford should be learning from the imports again? Looks like the 5.4 three valve compares pretty well to the 5.6 four valve Nissan to me...

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They say that the 5.4L is producing "300HP", but any 04-06 F150 driver will tell you, some of those horses ran off. They rate that "300" at an RPM range that you will never reach, and in a truck you need low end grunt. You have to be willing to compare Ford vehicles to their major competition, and it seems they are not measuring up.

I've just compared. The Nissan's 14 lb-ft advantage is at 150RPM lower. A very small difference, and not surprising given the larger Nissan engine. Didn't bother looking at the peak HP numbers since we're talking low end grunt here, but I'd bet the peak HP RPM's arent that far off either. I also looked at the curb weights of both vehicles (I used extended cab [not crew cab] 4X4, automatic tranny models as a comparison, SE Titan VS XLT F150). The Ford weighs close to 5500 pounds. The Nissan weighs a bit over 5100. That 400 pound difference is where your ponies are hiding...

Notice, BTW, that neither Nissan nor Toyota resorted to using pushrod engines in their pickups...

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #20 – September 06, 2006, 10:57:10 PM

The Nissan 5.6L is badly underrated, if youve driven one you'd know...they haul ass. If the newer generation F150s are so much heavier then the previous body style, then why only 25HP more? And for that matter, if they're so much more heavy than the Titan, then why is the Titan rated with a higher HP/TRQ engine? Do me a favor, go drive a Titan and come back and let me know your feedback, your opinion will change. I might add that stock F150 dyno charts prove that the "300HP" claim is not even reachable without a tune to raise the stock RPM limiter. Stock 2wd F150s dyno in the 215HP range, with most of that power above 3500RPMs, not really where you need it in a heavy truck. All Im saying is that this engine would be great in a mustang, but for such a heavy truck, it is ill suited. Can you get power out of it? Sure you can, but I refuse to spend $1000+ on a tuner and dyno runs to get it to where the other trucks already are from the factory.

The F150, although the heaviest has the lowest HP rating of the 1/2 ton class. The Hemi kicks out 345HP, the Titan 305(actually more like 320HP, the GM 6.0 option, even the new Tundra estimates around 345HP.

Of course Im not speaking just from magazine articles and raw numbers, Im speaking from experience. I know I have personally had my truck in atleast 10 times since I bought it new, and for serious issues too. Brake failures, internal engine components, leaking fluids, suspension issues, etc. Im not saying the F150 is a bad truck, but the quality control and R&D are lacking.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #21 – September 06, 2006, 11:15:27 PM

oldest folks with money buy lincolns, cadillacs, &crown vics. older folks with money buy Euro's like BMW mkIII's, AUDI a6's, and others like the nissan maximas, lexus's, etc..., older folks without money buy tauruses/sables, younger folks with money buy hondas, mitsubishis, and other tuners/ricers, and younger folks without money buy tbirds and cougars with lots of rust. Ford has just been unappealing to all these people because they're behind the times.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #22 – September 07, 2006, 12:02:01 AM

Well maybe Ford will become competitive again, but my next car will not be a Ford and this is from someone who automatically bought a Ford without thinking of other brands. The 500 is underpowered the Fusion has the duratec which is nothing to write home about these days, plus below average crash results. Ford has nothing innovative to attract me. I think their quaility has fallen wayyyyyy off. I do not need a car to last 250K, but I do not want to have a new car not make 50K without multiple warranty visits. Frankly Ford has to go some to get me to buy again. I have had many tauri ,crown vic/LTD, a couple of "our cars", and even a futura 'mont. This time most likely it will be a sonata or azera. I like what I see from Hyundai. If nothing else the stand behind (better warranty) their stuff offer lots of features (why is ABS an option in a $22K fusion?). car for car fusion to sonata, or azera to 500 ford better wake up. They could win me back, but it will take effort.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #23 – September 07, 2006, 12:12:51 AM

I want to begin by saying I am not truck brand partial in anyway to me a truck is a truck and they all have there issues but have one purpose...to work. In my experience of driving pick ups for work and putting 80 to 120 thousand Kms a year on them every year for nearly 20 years i can and will say this...Over the last 7 years I have owned/leased many trucks for the business i own with my partner and all have been domestics (approx 20) and unfortunately Ford has NOT treated us well...wether its the powerstrokes diesels with non stop front end issues, bad injectors, turbos going or the pathetic underpowered V8 engines in the gas jobbies. We have over the last year or two bought/leased for the company 2 Fords 1 being a 2005 crew cab F150 4x4 and a 05 F350 crew cab Diesel 4x4 and as well 3 GMC/Chev trucks.. 2- 06 3/4 tonne HD with the 6.0 liter engines in them both and a 1 tonne Duramax diesel RC with a steel flatdeck and I hate to say it but the Fords can not hold a candle to the GM products in reliability, and mostly power. As Chrome302jr states our Ford gas jobbie has been in the shop numerous times for little that that just doesn't seem to end and the GMs for nothing more than the normal maintence schedules. Again I am NOT partial to any truck. The diesels I cant really compare as the are both used for hauling but in totally different ways and situations, But the Ford diesel is already showing its age after not quite 2 years of service and about 190000km on it. Resale is obviously a big deal for our company and the GMs hold up a lot better and I truly know why! The 6.0 HD GM I drove before it got smoked earlier this summer was a terrific like new truck with no issues after nearly 140000km. I have replaced that truck with a 3/4 tonne GMC extended cab diesel truck and I must say I am in Love with it. Although the GM truck platform is getting a little old and needs a replacement my partner and myself will surely being driving GMs for the forseeable future.

One more thing the Ford service dept:shakehead
This all really stings because deep down I have Ford blood but I have to also run an efficient business and well...gotta do what ya gotta do!

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #24 – September 07, 2006, 11:47:27 AM

Guess who said this a couple days ago:

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Alan will have all the help he needs from inspired car guys. What our inspired car guys need is inspired direction. The problem at Ford…if you think our products are not boldly styled enough and didn't reach far enough…it wasn't because we didn't have inspired car people here, it was it was because our management didn't have enough confidence to pull the trigger and let those car people loose. We got cautious. Having Alan on board will liberate those people. He will put a business framework in place that will allow those people to pull off bolder designs.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #25 – September 08, 2006, 01:04:39 AM

Hey guys,
I wanted to chime in here. I've been working in the automotive industry as an engineer for about 12 years, which really means nothing. But I do try to follow my favorite brand name (starts with an "F") and see what kind of tricks and what-not they are up to. As for the F150's, I think I still like my '98 SuperCab more than the new models, bad as I hate to say it. Why was sleek, curvy, and kinda-aerodynamic so hip in '97, then in 2003 or 2004 everything went back to blocky and square? I mean, the seats are square, the rearviews are square, and there's almost no curvature in any of the sheetmetal. And they did get porky! The wheelbase on the new SuperCab with a 6.5' bed stretched 6" over my '98 (145" vs 139"). The overall height is taller, which does wonders for already poor fuel mileage (all that extra square-ness sticking higher in the wind). Sorry for the rant there! I guess I just don't see what improved over the '97/'03 style, even though they were due for a change. Please don't flame me, but if I had to have a new truck right now, and money was no object (hee hee), I'd have an '07 Chevy Avalanche. That's a good-looking truck! And as for a vote on the Nissan Titan, I have driven one of those, too, and whoever said it could haul was absolutely right! I would think it was quick if it was a car, much less a 5000+ lb truck.

Love the Mustangs and want one very badly (but buying a house and looking at a new baby in a few months with 2 kids already just can't justify one). Heck, we may have outgrown the '99 Explorer. The Fusions are good-looking cars for 4-doors, but we all know they are Mazdas. Five-Hundreds? Just a very fat Taurus without any oomph. What's left? Rangers, Explorers? The Explorers aren't selling. We are about to lay off a lot of people on lines that build Explorer components for who knows how long. I'm told they have over 100 days' of inventory at the Louisville plant (there used to be 2 Explorer assembly plants, and now 1 is more than enough). I love you, Ford, but you better do something quick. You should have never dropped the "real" T-bird/Cougar (forget the retro Bird and the FWD ricer Cougar), and I'm not just saying that for the benefit of the name of this forum. They were good cars. Not perfect, but good.

Yes, Ford needs another '86 Taurus, or an '80-something Escort. Do you remember how ga-ga people were for them back in the day? Or, dare I say it, the '83 T-bird/Cougar? Thanks for the soapbox time.

Fordman3

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #26 – September 09, 2006, 02:36:04 PM

Lots of good powertrains coming for Ford guys. I hate to say this, but "just wait". 2010 F150 is gonna be a sweet truck. The "Boss" engines are going to be awesome. There are a lot of things that are going to be done to the new 3.5 also.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #27 – September 09, 2006, 02:54:48 PM

Quote from: slamedcat;102661

They did it was the Taurus/Sable and Tempo/Topaz for some reason they killed those.

Because nobody was buying them. Their reputation in the rental fleet made them appear to be a py car and they weren't. No one wants to own what appears to be a rental beater.

The Fusion is supposed to take on the Camry/Accord. It should do well if it's reliable.

Incidentally, I mentioned to a friend of mine in the FoMoCo planning department that they should revive a Cougar on the Mustang platform with late 60's styling.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #28 – September 09, 2006, 03:10:12 PM

If they wait untill 2010 to do something special i am afraid it will be much to late as they need to do something within the next 2 years. If they are going to use the Boss name thats cool but ...1) I hope they really do something great with the engine rather than hope on a name and... 2)The name only makes peoples things ding so long (ie) the "HEMI". They need some style/reliability and those I GOTTA have one looks or they will be farther behind than ever.

Bill Ford steps down..

Reply #29 – September 09, 2006, 04:14:50 PM

Quote from: 4mykid;103151

If they wait untill 2010 to do something special i am afraid it will be much to late as they need to do something within the next 2 years.

Exactly, why should we have to wait until 2010? Im not sure Ford could survive another 5 yrs of this.