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Topic: Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts?? (Read 5021 times) previous topic - next topic

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

hello everyone!

I'm getting wrapped up with my current project (1966 ford LTD) and finally ready to start building my 1987 Tbird into a mean, a bit rough around the edges driver.  the plan has been to put a budget 5.0/ 5 speed in, along with some brake and suspension mods, and use it for a driver/have fun car, without caring too much about keeping  perfect paint and a super straight body. This car will be built to drive, and a lot.

so, the car will be tossing out the 3.8 soon enough, but i have a few different engine options to go with.  i'm kinda leaning towards one, but i would like to get  everyone's opinions to make sure i'm not overlooking something.

Option 1:

I have a 302 that came out of a 1991 Ford !50 on the stand.  stock bottom end rebuild, the F150 got a 351W instead. the Bottom end is stock, nothing fancy, but it is all fresh and ready to roll.  I do have a set of freshly refurbished GT40P heads that were going to go onto that engine, i would go choose a fitting cam ( the current cam i had in the engine was more aimed towards towing) and i would put it in the car, with proper mounts, pan, etc, a set of reasonable headers, and go with a simple 600-ish CFM carb and intake combo. the benefits to this setup are that I already have most of the long block bought and assembled, and that simplicity is bliss.

Option 2:

I have a donor 1988 Cougar that is a 5.0 car.  the trans is out of it, the car sat for over a decade, but it was free, and i am harvesting parts, because regardless, i will still need the accessory drive and stuff.  The engine looks NASTY and has 180K on it, I havent even seen if it will turn over by hand or not.  the entire intake and fuel injection setup is there, but mice decided to wreak havoc on the engine harness. It would take some patience, but i would be able to repair the harness, rebuild the 302 out of the cougar, and swap the setup into my Tbird.  yes, I would once again go with an appropriate cam, headers, and probably the GT40P heads.  The Benefits to this setup would be that it would have fuel injection, while much more complex, it does have its merits.


So, my initial thoughts are to go with option 1, because its already mostly paid for, so thats an expense that I wouldn't have to deal with . Yes, i could very easily build the long block in option 1, and hang the cougar injection on it, unless, of course, you guys see some reason that I am unable to use the 91 truck block, which is why i suggested a full rebuild of the cougar engine.

So, lets start this conversation off that direction.  Is there any reason that i would not be able to use my 1991 Ford pickup long block with GT40P heads in this build?

also, sound off, which do you think i should go with, carb or injection, and why?

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #1 –
The 91 ford block is identicle minus having lower compression pistons and valve relifs. Its would be more likely to clear a bigger cam if you want some lope.

Fuel injection, straight up. Get a h.o. cam, cheap upgrade, only need a few parts over the stock s.o. stuff. The lower intake manifold is identical, plus you already have everything to do it.

As a daily driver you will beat on, its gonna run good reguardless of weather or altitude and once you get it running good, shouldn't have to touch it.

Get a explorer intake, the rest of the stang h.o. parts for a full upgrade. Cheap sn-95 t-5, f-150 flywheel/starter and you are done.

I have been daily driving 86-88 cougarbirds for almost 15 years now. If you treat them right, they will do the same back. I have put over 11k miles on the tbird i just bought in January. My last daily was a 86 cougar with 350k miles on it. Almost all the electronics were original.
Quote from: jcassity
I honestly dont think you could exceed the cost of a new car buy installing new *stock* parts everywhere in your coug our tbird. Its just plain impossible. You could revamp the entire drivetrain/engine/suspenstion and still come out ahead.
Hooligans! 
1988 Crown Vic wagon. 120K California car. Wifes grocery getter. (junked)
1987 Ford Thunderbird LX. 5.0. s.o., sn-95 t-5 and an f-150 clutch. Driven daily and going strong.
1986 cougar.
lilsammywasapunkrocker@yahoo.com

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #2 –
If I were in your shoes....... Use the truck block and go with option 1 unless you can get a good H.O. cam, intake and H.O. computer.otherwise you will invest alot of time only to be dissatisfied with performance.  If you don't mind making the investment, my preference would be fuel injection using the ready to go truck block.

John

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Skunk;461006
If you don't mind making the investment, my preference would be fuel injection using the ready to go truck block.

I'd go that route as well. Put the GT40P heads on the truck block (upgrade the springs), and a HO or better roller cam.
88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, bunch of other stuff.

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #4 –
so, i think we are all in agreement that the truck engine, with the GT40P heads ( yes, i upgraded the springs to comp cam springs) is my foundation. 

i do know that sitting under the bench somewhere, i do have the upper and lower intake that matched those P heads, came off a 99 moluntaineer or something like that.

wouldnt running that involve a MAF swap?  I know that i could feasably pull the entire injection harness out of the donor car, upgrade the computer, upgrade the intake, and yes, i will 100% agree, once its set, its turn key solid. but at what cost?

The opposing side to the argument is i have a used 600cfm Edelbrock on the shelf i got for $30 from a buddy, and a Edelbrock perfermer RPM intake under the bench i got a few years ago for like $70.  drop em on, tune them, and im out driving.  Yes, a carb is not perfect, its not turn key ready, but I also spent half of my driving life chugging my old 78 Tbird up and down the iowa highways, rain, snow, or shine. 

this car will not be my "true" daily driver.  this will be the " i wanna drive the red Tbird this week" and powerslide around corners driver.  if the snow is butt deep and the wind chill is -20, im not gonna even bother, i'll just take the 95 F250 or the 2001 expedition.

so, to make my intentions clearer, i want the car to be reliable enough that it CAN be a daily driver, but it doesnt have to be my daily driver, all the time.

ok, now that we are past the long block phase, out ofthe intakes i have already,  (88 cougar setup, 99-ish mountaineer setup) what can i use IF i were to injected?

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Skunk;461006
  If you don't mind making the investment, my preference would be fuel injection using the ready to go truck block.

John

Thats the key right there.  I'm trying to make very wise investments with this project.  make the money count.  So i need to see if its worth the money spent to get the injection, or if im better off going with the old school cheap carb.

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #6 –
Carb would work fine, im not against it.

I just like being able to lug my car around in gear and start it with the first turn of the key at -27ºf.

You could easily get away with the explorer intake and a stock h.o. cam with the gt40's, but you may be at the limit of the 19# injectors. The 93 cobra had a nearly identicle setup and came with 24# along with maf as all 89 up stangs did.
Quote from: jcassity
I honestly dont think you could exceed the cost of a new car buy installing new *stock* parts everywhere in your coug our tbird. Its just plain impossible. You could revamp the entire drivetrain/engine/suspenstion and still come out ahead.
Hooligans! 
1988 Crown Vic wagon. 120K California car. Wifes grocery getter. (junked)
1987 Ford Thunderbird LX. 5.0. s.o., sn-95 t-5 and an f-150 clutch. Driven daily and going strong.
1986 cougar.
lilsammywasapunkrocker@yahoo.com

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #7 –
If you aren't going to race it or drive it everyday I say just carb it. (and I'm a very pro F.I. guy). You already have all the parts to carb it. and you're car was a 3.8 so the harness isn't really right so that's a little more headache. just carb it and have fun. that being said, I wouldn't hack up the harness or do anything that cant easily be undone, because one day you might have some free time and some extra cash and may decide to finally F.I. it.
1988 Thunderbird sport
2004 Ford F150 Lariat
2008  Chevrolet Cobalt Sport
2007 Suzuki DR-Z400S dual sport/Supermoto
1988 Thunderbird LX - sold
1988 Mercury Cougar XR-7 with GST kit - gone

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #8 –
More to consider when going carb you havent memntioned....

Before you drop that intake and carb on your going to need a distributor thats compatible with the roller cam {?$} then you will need a new ignition system since you got rid of the TFI.{?$} Then you need to change the fuel system. Electric pump? Mechanical pump? Lines? Regulator? How are you getting the fuel out of the tank in regards to the sending unit?
 
Lastly, no offense but that carb is the worse one you could possibly choose.
Brian R.
88 2.3t Ranger
83 TC  gt40p motor,Vortech,TFS1 cam,long tubes,MS PnP,T5,8.8,17x9 Cobra 17s

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #9 –
Quote from: deathbypsi;461044
More to consider when going carb you havent memntioned....

Before you drop that intake and carb on your going to need a distributor thats compatible with the roller cam {?$} then you will need a new ignition system since you got rid of the TFI.{?$} Then you need to change the fuel system. Electric pump? Mechanical pump? Lines? Regulator? How are you getting the fuel out of the tank in regards to the sending unit?
 
Lastly, no offense but that carb is the worse one you could possibly choose.

His '88 Cougar parts car has that... If dizzy is beat swap it's steel gear onto truck distributor...


For ign it's possible to trigger a TFI module with a points distributor(unfortunately not a duraspark dist)... OR a TFI dist can be wired and run but of course it would not have any ign advance curve...

I currently have a points triggered TFI setup on my carb'd '72 Comet(it's Street Fire ped the bed), uses a remote mount module & heat sink... Actually that not true, module is dist mount with pins for PIP chopped off, runs great...

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #10 –
I don't personally like my P heads.  I wish I had kept my standard GT40's  I spent way too much money at the machine shop making them suitable for use with a decent cam at decent revs, and the exhaust valve is too small.
If you've got the truck block ready to go, get a HO cam and an Explorer upper and lower, early Explorer non-P heads, snag the accessory drive from the Cougar, patch up the cougar's harness, and get an A9P and MAF.  Choose your MAF carefully.  The only issue I'd have with the truck block, is if it has stock pistons.  You want more compression than that, but if you run the P heads, don't go over 9:1, the pistons will hit (or come uncomfortably close to) the goofy spark plug bosses.  Ask me how I know.

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #11 –
yes, i know the compression ratio isnt ideal by any means, but the fact that it is already done and ready to roll makes it a bit more acceptable.

as far as a distributor gear, the truck block is non roller cam, so no worries there.  and i do have several distributors from several different series of small blpen 15 fords to choose from, if i wanted, i could even run points.  but really, thats not what im after.

As for as the Edelbrock carb, i also have three or four Holleys and a Demon or two floating around the shop.  I just threw the Edelbrock out there because it was the first one to come to my mind.

I really think that the deeper i get his parts car torn apart, will be the deciding factors on whether or not to make it injected.  LEts see just how bad the harness is.

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #13 –
The block is actually a roller block fitted with flat tappet cam and lifters. Easily made full roller, which I believe began in 92 for the trucks.

John

Which 302 to start with, and what to use for parts??

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Skunk;461087
The block is actually a roller block fitted with flat tappet cam and lifters. Easily made full roller, which I believe began in 92 for the trucks.

John


By '86(actually around mid '85) Ford was casting only roller blocks, trucks used same with a flat tappet cam... On some the spider bosses aren't machined or drilled/tapped but that's a minor issue...