Still running lean

Topic: Still running lean (Read 10081 times) previous topic - next topic

Still running lean

Reply #15 – January 15, 2009, 10:00:55 AM

Well your fuel pressure is in spec so I don'y know what's wrong off the top of my head :hick: The injectors *should* be big enough as my set up is very similar to yours (I have a different, non stock HO cam) that just eeks by on 19 lb injectors.

88cougar you really don't need/want to run mass air with stock 14lb injectors and the stock SO cam. You do know that your car does not have a factory HO motor right? It's different than a Mustang 5.0. Read this page: http://www.coolcats.net/tech/advanced/ho_transplant.html and this one: http://www.coolcats.net/tech/advanced/massair.html

Still running lean

Reply #16 – January 15, 2009, 01:47:06 PM

Quote from: Seek;251706

As long as there is good vacuum (non-aggressive cams) and no need for huge injectors, speed density works great. Once you need larger injectors, it loses some appeal though.

Plenty of people have run larger injectors on SD motors with out issue using the stock EEC-IV electronics.
SD is much more dependent upon vacuum than mass air.

Quote from: 88cougar

Sounds kind of like the same problem I had with my 1988 Cougar XR-7 after I converted it to Mass Air

You performed a mass air conversion on an otherwise stock non-HO 5.0? I'm curious.....what injectors were/are you running with this very confused sounding setup?

Quote

In order to do any modifications to you engine that are air related you have to convert from speed density to Mass Air to get the full potential of that part. Such as better Intake, Cold air, etc..

Disproved by people on this very board and others such as http://www.50tech.com ...basic upgrades -- even cylinder head upgrades where people have run mass air after running SD and found the MAF switch slowed them down....
Mass Air is easier to work with AND it is more forgiving once you start becoming more aggresive with cam profiles and cylinder head flow as far as the stock Ford EEC-IV ECU's are concerned, but that doesn't mean you can't go with larger injectors with the SD ECU....

Quote from: Seek;251709

About mass-air.com, they are who I got my harness from and I see their "adjuster" but again, that thing's just a bandaid. I see how it works and what its for but the whole "Changing Injector Sizes" thing throws out all credibility. With the correct mass air sensor, this isn't a problem. Anyways, for the price of that thing, I'm halfway to a second hand TwEECer R/T. I have the AEM wideband setup coming that will be installed the week after next.

BSFC and volumetric efficiency as well as how much the ECU can compensate for those items with the readings it takes/is given from it's environment have a lot to do with proper injector sizing as well. A stock HO was rated at 225 Hp and was said to have around a .52 BSFC (a higher number is a sign of inefficiency and pwer lost to heat -- hence why your average upgraded H/C/I N/A 5.0 will have a LOWER BSFC constant). Throwing 30 pounders on a stock MAF equipped 5.0 even with a calibrated meter will be a waste. Even if it could meter it properly it would throw the injector duty cycle so low -- especially at cruising and low load conditions -- you'd potentially create other issues.

Seek, your other 2 codes are for the thermactor system....I'm guessing it's disappeared so to speak? You plugged the heads/lines?

Still running lean

Reply #17 – January 15, 2009, 02:35:48 PM

I know my car is not an HO motor like a Mustang GT Duhh. I was told by a mechanic\ car restorer, that's done about everything that can be done to the engine on a 88 Cougar XR-7, that before I do any modifications to the engine, I need to convert it Mass Air. And It didn't say anywhere on the Mas air conversion kit instructions to install bigger fuel injectors & when I contacted Customer Service at mass-air.com they recommended the air adjuster & 19lb fuel injectors since my car is not an HO motor. I have the correct mas air sensor but it will not work correctly with a stock non HO motor. Like I said before, the Air Adjuster allows you to calibrate your mass air kit to your cars setting. Which I bought from them for $180 & so far the car runs fine since then & I can sell the Air Adjuster to someone else or use it on another Mass Air car. Since the conversion (which was over a year ago), I've decided to keep the engine mostly original & I still have all the parts i've tooken off. Thus to keep the car more valuable in the future. Instead of beefing up the current engine, I'm buying a Roller 5.0L motor out of a 90's mustang, put a 347 stroker kit, Edelbrock top end kit with a roller cam, aluminum heads, rockers, lifters, Air gap intake, & 750 cfm Carb. I've already got a posi locker & have a different transmission rebuilt to handle up to 500hp with a stall converter. And a few other little modifications to the suspension like brakes, springs, shocks, etc.. And instead of converting to 5 lug i'm buying 16" Chrome mustang wheels. Any other questions or things you think I'm doing wrong?

Still running lean

Reply #18 – January 15, 2009, 02:39:09 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;251799

I understand that SD can be used with more but it's easier for most people to just use mass air than deal with tuning (not that I won't be messing with this ecu not too far out).

Anyways, they're gt40p heads - no thermactor holes and it isn't on there. EGR seems to work but I think I need to datalog it to verify that the computer is actually opening it up as "insufficient flow" shouldn't be happening. Once I find a secondhand TwEECer, I will be doing this along with a DataQ - I'm tired of wasting money having shops check out the car now when I could have all these cool new toys with that money. I just wish this project would stop being a project...so I can move on to doing more enjoyable things than working on a car every single weekend for over a year.

Still running lean

Reply #19 – January 15, 2009, 03:22:10 PM

Quote

I know my car is not an HO motor like a Mustang GT Duhh. I was told by a mechanic\ car restorer, that's done about everything that can be done to the engine on a 88 Cougar XR-7, that before I do any modifications to the engine, I need to convert it Mass Air......Any other questions or things you think I'm doing wrong?

1. Don't ever listen to that person when it comes to EEC-IV tech again

2. Yes. You're keeping a closed mind. You also a little hostile for a new guy who we know nothing about...We get our fair share of people here who don't know what the fVck they're talking about....Your 12 posts here don't simply give enough info for some to determine whether or not you do or not. I understand you're trying to help, but at the same time you answered the questions in a way that gave rise to making me curious.....

And FWIW I'd go back to SD on your current setup.

Seek, have you done any WOT driving to see waht happens?

Still running lean

Reply #20 – January 15, 2009, 04:16:24 PM

So it only runs rough while warm and in open loop, but fine while cold and in open loop?

Still running lean

Reply #21 – January 15, 2009, 04:25:43 PM

Sorry, but I've been to about every mechanic in town & around trying to figure out why after i converted my car to mass air it started idling poorly, hesitated before it would go but runs fine while your driving it & on the Hwy. Then after 2 computers, and a new sensor I got back in touch with the company I bought the kit from & they told my to get the Air Adjuster which solved my problmes. And sorry for seeming hostile, but your one or two people telling me something that hundreds of other people told me something different. Not saying there right or your right but the car runs fine now. And the person who told me to convert to Mass Air builds high performance Ford's & restores cars & has built over 30 cars in his life time & sold most of them for over $100,000. Hey, maybe what I'm saying is wrong. I'm just telling you what I had to do that worked on my car. If you haven't had the problem I've had with my car or worked on a car with the problems I've had, then how can you tell me what i need to? I agree about going back to Speed Density Setup, but I've put to much money into getting the mass air kit right so i'm leaving it alone for now. In another 15-20 years when I go to restore this car back to it's original condition, & take out all the performance things like the new engine & transmssion. I'll convert it back to Speed Density, put the original wheels back on, & probably put the original radio back in. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Still running lean

Reply #22 – January 15, 2009, 09:15:42 PM

Quote from: JeremyB;251834

So it only runs rough while warm and in open loop, but fine while cold and in open loop?

Yes...very hard to pinpoint the problem in such odd cirspoogestances. The only thought in my head this whole time is cold signal from ECT causing ecu to run extra rich - as it warms up, the ecu leans it out. Unmetered air getting in somewhere that is causing every last bit of my problems (warm open loop, along with excess fuel usage/economy all around). No where can a vacuum leak be found though, redone and new intake gaskets all around, disconnected vacuum lines, blocked off egr/iac, yet it still acts like it's receiving unmetered air. I don't think I can do much further testing without a smoke machine.

Still running lean

Reply #23 – January 15, 2009, 09:18:38 PM

Quote from: V8Demon;251812

Seek, have you done any WOT driving to see waht happens?

I did this at 700 miles on the motor - it runs great and accelerates scary quick (I was frustrated with my gps telling me things too late and having to keep turning around...it goes from 20mph to 60 in no time as long as I don't lose grip)

Still running lean

Reply #24 – January 15, 2009, 09:31:50 PM

Quote from: 88cougar;251838

I'm sure the product does SOMETHING, it probably just does it in the wrong way (tuning rather than just changing voltages/resistances around). I see the product and won't touch it, I will leave it at that. If it works for you, that's great and I hope it continues to work well for you. It's no fun having a car that doesn't run right. This thing basically just makes the computer think it's getting more air than the mass air sensor is telling, so it gives you more fuel.

About people knowing what they're doing and saying - I haven't had the best experience with people who have "rebuilt" and "repainted" "20+ cars" as they usually know less than what I know, yet I took their word since they had more "experience". Most of these older people don't take the time to learn about fuel injection and try applying every carburetor trick to them - it doesn't work much of the time. This first shop I took it to told me to try putting my mass air stuff on to see how it worked, compared to the speed density. This didn't make much sense in my head besides the motor not knowing the amount of air actually coming in, so I tried it. Everything acted the same, but I also got poor throttle response afterwards. While I would have done this eventually, it didn't make sense to do it at this time - and it didn't help a bit. This guy's been around and working on Fords all his life. I don't trust the above advice one bit.

Anyways, good luck with restoring the car...even ever. NOS parts are becoming harder to find each day right now, it'll be even worse in the future. Then there's the whole thing about petroleum reserves and buttstuffog radio likely not being around at that point in time. I say do what you want to it and have fun. I'm just hoping for a "mustang electric motor"conversion" at some point as that would work in our cars and also give us the weight in the back that our rear wheel drive vehicles love. Gotta love 1,000ft lbs of torque.

Still running lean

Reply #25 – January 15, 2009, 10:27:50 PM

Thanks for the info & good luck figuring out your problem to. I hope it never comes to electric cars only & no petroleum, especially with all the money & time we've put into our cars.

Still running lean

Reply #26 – January 16, 2009, 06:51:53 AM

I just realized something.......

Quote

Vacuum is at 16in at warm idle
Camshaft: 89 Mustang GT - 0 degrees advance/retard
Heads: GT40P 00 Explorer 5.0 with Trick Flow "stock replacement" springs, lapped valves as we couldn't verify the seats being cut
cylinder blowby test/crankcase pressure showed a max of 4cfm on 5500rpm snapped throttle runs

Considering my TFS setup runs 14" of vacuum @ 850 RPM in park, I would say your vacuum is a bit on the low side -- especially with the info provided. Have you tried checking it under load?

Here's an interesting animation for vacuum diagnostics:
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,3020.0.html
Click on each scenario. It's a very nice tutorial.

Has excessive lifter preload been ruled out of the equation at this time?

Still running lean

Reply #27 – January 16, 2009, 08:18:36 AM

Quote from: 88cougar;251838

Sorry, but I've been to about every mechanic in town & around trying to figure out why after i converted my car to mass air it started idling poorly, hesitated before it would go but runs fine while your driving it & on the Hwy. Then after 2 computers, and a new sensor I got back in touch with the company I bought the kit from & they told my to get the Air Adjuster which solved my problmes.

Yeah it idled poorly cause your mass air EEC is setup for 19lb injectors and the stock ones are 14lb, it was no doubt severely lean... As far as the guy building $100,000 show cars, few "shiny" guys have any real understanding of electronic fuel injection...

As others have mentioned a HO Mass Air setup will never work properly with the stock SO cam and/or the 14lb injectors... You really should convert it back to SD, but if you've got a serious hard on for the mass air, a EEC from a '91 California Crown Vic or Grand Marquis should work... Those were the only SO 5.0 I know of that used mass air... You may need the matching MAF meter, I don't know if the HO was the same or not...

BTW if you're just going to convert it to HO and not install a hot cam, use a '87-'88 Stang SD EEC, it's been proved time and time again those were the quickest stock 5.0s ever produced... Yes I tried a Mass Air conv on a '86 Stang and lost .25 sec at the track(thought it felt soggy after the conversion), converted it back at the track(same evening) and it regained the lost time and felt like it's old self again... I never ran mass air on it again...

Still running lean

Reply #28 – January 16, 2009, 08:31:23 AM

Quote from: JeremyB;251834

So it only runs rough while warm and in open loop, but fine while cold and in open loop?

Quote from: Seek;251888

Yes...very hard to pinpoint the problem in such odd cirspoogestances. The only thought in my head this whole time is cold signal from ECT causing ecu to run extra rich - as it warms up, the ecu leans it out. Unmetered air getting in somewhere that is causing every last bit of my problems (warm open loop, along with excess fuel usage/economy all around).

Are you sure it's actually in open loop warm??? The EEC will go to closed loop with hot o2 sensors and engine temp over 100*... With the heated 02 sensors that's almost immediately, on a warm restart.. Have you monitored o2 voltages when this happens???

Still running lean

Reply #29 – January 16, 2009, 09:29:01 AM

As per FordFuelInjection.com

Quote

Warm Idle
This one tends to be more about emissions. Warm idle occurs if the engine starts and ECT rises above 185°F, we come up to a stoplight, or place it back into neutral. The computers is programmed with a target RPM for idle, typically it’s around 672RPM. Typically the computer is struggling to achieve its target RPM. 255°F is the magic number to start complaining about overheating. Let’s break it down by system. Fuel is now closed loop with HEGO switching. We are now aiming for 14.7:1 A/F ratio for perfect emissions, enrichment will occur only if the ECT is above 225°F. There will be no EGR operation at these RPM’s. Timing is mildly advanced and will begin to retard after a minute. We need hot exhaust gasses to help complete combustion and converter operation. Air is pumped into the converter, but will dump to the atmosphere after several minutes to prevent overheating the converter. The Throttle Air Bypass will be controlling idle, we need a nice smooth idle. Not to high with A/T transmissions to prevent creep at stoplights. Idle will increases 100-200RPM if the ECT or ACT is over 225°F. This RPM increase will help burn the rich mixture cooling the combustion chamber. The faster RPM speeds up the accessories, specifically the water pump and fan. Belt fans will speed up, and electric fans will need more juice from the alternator.

I still say your vacuum is low and you should look into why, but perhaps you do indeed have the same issue I did once I fixed my harness and got the o2's working. Perhaps they are reading from the wrong banks.

Refer to pins #29 & # 43 in the below diagram....