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Topic: 0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds. (Read 7791 times) previous topic - next topic

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #30
vac leaks sooooo suck. i'm going to have to replace every single vac line in the near future.
 
the MAP is quite important (the reason escapes me at the moment) and is easily checked. (courtesy of JCassity again)
 

Map sensor check
Apply vac pres of about 15lbs to the map, if it holds vac, move on to next step

Key on engine off test
map sensor signal output is the DB/LG wire
**compare output of like maps and average thier outputs if possible per the shop manual
**your altitude is proportional to the barometric presure which the map works off of.

altitude in ft / voltage
0-----------------1.59
1000--------------1.56
2000--------------1.53
3000--------------1.50
4000--------------1.47
5000--------------1.44
6000--------------1.41
7000--------------1.39

If output is in range compared to other maps then move on

Plug off map vac line
apply a few lbs vac to map, like 5 to 8
start engine
slowly apply 15lbs vac and hold about 1500 rpm
while in this test, run the KOER quick test
are any map codes present? (ie-22) if no, then your problem is not the map, its another vac related issue.




0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #31
alright i seem to have forgotten about checking the o2's again. i dont know, ive just gotten a little sidetracked yesterday and today. today i was checking vac lines. i looked at every connection on the upper intake and i cant find anything broken/loose/etc. all of the rubber end connectors are soft and pliable. i replaced the big fat hose going to the pcv valve when i did the conversion. it was hard as a ROCK so i figured that was bad. i could see the MAP sensor connection with a little mirror tool and a flashlight, clamped on there just fine like it was when i put it there during the conversion. i unplugged the vac hose form the MAP with the car idling. it died instantly as soon as i pulled the hose. just wondered what would happen.
 
the idle DOES NOT hunt at all. it sits at like 800 rpms very smoothly. (4 bars on the digi dash, so 800 give or take like 199 rpms right? :hick: ) but the idle is just like it was before the conversion. in drive it dips down another 200 or so like it should (like 650 or something is the spec right?) again no fluctuations.
 
i will do that AC voltage check tomorrow, and pull codes again just for the hell of it. i think next stop is a shop. the gas mileage isnt really where its supposed to be either, i dont think. i dont know why im not 100% positive but i really think at 30ish mph, flat road, it was always at like 31-33 MPG. now its like 25/26. thats better than before, the timing fix made it really shoot up! but i dont think its all the way there yet. honestly i wouldnt care if the thing took off like a bat outta hell but it doesnt! and it seems like the two are correlated to some degree so im gauging the likely power situation based on MPG. also since the  g-tech wont friggin read out 0-60, keeps just giving me 1/4 mile time even though i slow back down after hitting 60, i used a stopwatch and got 9 seconds for 0-60. before the conversion the g-tech actually did show 0-60 like it should and i got 9.4 seconds. nope, im not at 225 horse yet. :mad:
 
 
if tomorrow's tests turn up nothing i think next stop is a shop. im really tired of this. i CANNOT believe no one else on this forum has had their H.O. conversion not affect their power at all. thats amazing. and now kingcars just did his, in 2 days mind you of straight 12 hour work, and the only problem he had was installing the wrong thermostat but his power is right where it should be, WITH stock exhaust manifolds. i got the headers!
 
i dont mean to rant but im sick of this troubleshooting. and i really dont feel like pulling this apart again, not even the upper intake. that thing is a bit heavy with the TB and egr spacer on it, and the vac hoses arent long enough, you gotta juggle it in the air and pull em off...i didnt have fun with that the first time. if i really wanted to check EVERYTHING perfectly i need to take stuff apart. no way. i dont care if its like $100 for a diagnosis. im done.
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #32
Sounds like your timing is set fine. You might want to just verify that the computer is advancing the timing correctly (with the spout connnector installed, the timing should advance as you rev the engine).  I wouldn't worry about the gas mileage thing, 25/26 is still very good. I would still check to make sure you don't have a vacuum leak.  You can buy a vacuum gage for cheap or just borrow one from Autozone.  If all this checks out fine, you might want to verify that the engine still has good compression by doing a compression check on each cylinder.  The HO conversion is worth 50-60 HP, which you should definitely be able to notice, especially in 4000-6000rpm range.
1988 Thunderbird
306 HO w/ A9P processor
AOD w/ Transgo Reprogrammer
Full Digital Dash w/ twin Cyberdyne A-pillar gauges 
245/50/16 Tires on Snowflakes
Engine swap - CA smog compliant

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #33
okay but re: the vacuum gauge, what should it read if everything is fine, what should i look for when reading it? might it fluctuate back and forth in a certain way if X condition occurs, read lower if X condition or Y condition, you get the idea. just give me a tutorial on vacuum gauges i guess. "vacuum gauges for dummies":D
 
i also cant get that AC voltage multimeter test to work. this is exactly the meter im working with--http://www.westlake-electronic.com/img.php?item_no=flu-87. setting it to AC voltage, the readout is like 140 something volts. with DC like i did before, the reading on both changes quite a bit. i went for a longer drive today while doing that and even cruising at 30 mph on flat road i noticed it changing by a large amount, going from .8 ish then dropping to .1 or just about 0 then coming back up to 8, sometimes stabilizing but often going back and forth.
 
i also did codes, KOER today, and got 21 94 44. once again those last two arent important but 21 is the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor out of voltage range. havent even gotten this one before with KOER. got it when i couldnt even get the car running and i was doing key off codes and that and the air charge temp sensor would come up but he car was cold, again wasnt even running. ive never gotten 21 with it running. just something new, and anything NEW throws a red flag for me. should i disregard it?
 
 
i guess i should also say that its not so much me as its my mom thats sick and tired of this. i mean i AM sick of the lack of power but as long as i keep getting new suggestions that bring me closer to a solution, i dont mind more troubleshooting as long im not wasting too much of my time/gas. my mom is sick of me going in and out of the house a lot, changing this trying that, running the thing to get codes or for whatever reason (loud exhaust, "shakes the house" as she says) and every other thing a mom wouldnt like about her son constantly doing stuff with his car--potential for a mess/spill in the garage, you get it.
 
i really would not like to spend a whole bunch of money to get it diagnosed. and thats gotta be the worst thing for a car guy to do right? have a SHOP find/fix a problem FOR YOU, instead of doing it yourself. but if we run out of ideas and the effort becomes useless ill certainly do it. i have to get results eventually, so ill do what i gotta to get there.
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #34
Quote from: 88BlueBird;132796
Sounds like your timing is set fine. You might want to just verify that the computer is advancing the timing correctly (with the spout connnector installed, the timing should advance as you rev the engine).


After KOER finishes presenting its codes, the timing will be base plus 20 degrees for two minutes. If the base is 10 then it should be 30 BTDC. This checks the EECs ability to advance the timing.

KOER code 21 is normal if the car is not warmed up.

The voltage generated by the O2 sensors is DC.
I don't understand where this  checking it for AC stuff is coming from.
It sounds like your O2s are working.

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #35
Dude,
 
 Don't sweat it. You'll figure it out or take somewhere and learn something new. Good job getting it running! I've been professionally working on cars for years and have been stumped countless times  even by the simplest things.
 Double check your firing order. On 2nd thought triple check it and make shure the distributor rotor is at #1 on the cap on the compression stroke. Check your fuel pressure and fuel filter under a load. Have a passenger check it or tape the gauge to the windshield. Fuel pressure should be about 32psi idle 40 psi wide open throttle. I wouldn't worry too much about the oxygen sensor codes for a no power problem.
 One of the previous posts mentioned to check your timing during the end of the engine run self test where the pcm locks out the timing I believe at 20 degrees for a couple of minutes. This would verify the computer is advancing the timing. Or you could get some premium fuel, pull the spout and run just base timing. Keep advancing it till it knocks on wide open throttle. If it knocks back off the throttle and retard the timing. It's old school but that can work too.
Correct fire, fuel, timing and compression, the improvement should be noticeable.

Good luck,
Mike
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]88 t-bird: 5.0ho, gt40y, crane 2031, fms 1.7, paxton@5#, aod wide ratio, tci stall, performer rpm upper, 70mm bbk, pro m 60, 42#s, 3.73 7.5" posi, jba shorties, borla, upr x. 13.4 @ 104mph. cbaza, moates, tuned by decipha

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #36
Quote from: btwodu;132219
According to JCassity's write-up:
 
O2 sensor check
start car
set meter to ******** AC ****** yep, i said AC.
ground out black meter lead anywhere logical
prob o2 sensor conn, should read about .3 to .5 volts ******* AC***
with the meter lead somehow secure on the conn, increase the throttle by hand.
the ac reading should increase to about .9 VAC.
repeat test for the other o2 sensor.

 
softtouch, THATS where its coming from lol. i dunno i just believed it cause jcassity made that huge writeup on...well...everything.
 
ill look at the timing again.
 
t.birdsc aka Mike,
thanks, ill see if i can get a fuel pressure gauge, maybe a loaner from a parts store.
 
also you mentioned the fuel filter. whats the deal with those on these cars? i doubt if its ever been replaced, it looks rusty and old. not falling apart, just surface rust, and well it sure looks 20 years old. when if at all should they be replaced?
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #37
Change it! It may not fix it, but I've been burned by one of those before. Fuel supply could be an issue, your fuel pressure should at least be checked. Pump may not be supplying enough fuel, but I would wait on condemning that for awhile.
 Firing order could be an issue too. The reason I say to check these things is I ran into some problems with one or both of these problems during my conversion. However, if I had to narrow it done to one thing on my car it would have to be firing order. I can't believe how dumb that was:punchballs: It felt like it wanted to go but fell flat on its face.  I think I might have had a fuel supply/quality problem as well. Nevertheless, I still have plenty of kinks to work out on the vehicle. It's not a big deal though, I'm lucky to have a working Bronco.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]88 t-bird: 5.0ho, gt40y, crane 2031, fms 1.7, paxton@5#, aod wide ratio, tci stall, performer rpm upper, 70mm bbk, pro m 60, 42#s, 3.73 7.5" posi, jba shorties, borla, upr x. 13.4 @ 104mph. cbaza, moates, tuned by decipha

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #38
I forgot to say why. It was a long time ago. The fuel filter I believe was on a Crown Vic. I remember thinking the fuel pressure was ok. Tuned it, cleaned the injectors, hung a map on it, no power. Shop foreman rode with me and said 'change the fuel filter' and I said fuel pressure was ok. He said change it I did and the car was fixed. lol. I guess it must have been a fuel supply issue at wot.
 On the firing order make sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 terminal on the cap on the compression stroke.
 To check it, pull the #1 spark plug out, put your finger in the hole and spin the motor, you should feel air pump out as the rotor turns past #1. I believe around 12 o'clock. If it does you know it is in correctly. A timing light wont help much if this is not correct 1st. If that is good check the fuel pressure. Then after those things you can try advancing the timing more.

Mike
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]88 t-bird: 5.0ho, gt40y, crane 2031, fms 1.7, paxton@5#, aod wide ratio, tci stall, performer rpm upper, 70mm bbk, pro m 60, 42#s, 3.73 7.5" posi, jba shorties, borla, upr x. 13.4 @ 104mph. cbaza, moates, tuned by decipha

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #39
This might be way off base, and if it is, I'm sorry and disregard, but is there a chance the O2 sensor wires could have been switched? By that I mean Driver side connected to Pass. side and vice versa?
Resident "Idiot".

Formerly TBob5pt0 :shoothead


Quote from: JeremyB;165772
Repairing a lock cylinder that is frozen or sans keys requires a drill, gumption, and a midget on a tricycle.
Quote from: Big_D
Forgot to put on intake hose when starting the car, sucked neighbors cat into intake.

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #40
This is probably a case of a weak fuel pump. Change the fuel filter first just for ease but installing a better fuel pump is good insurance against failure of the old pump anyhow.

I did an HO conversion a few years back and the car ran great at idle and low engine load but was lacking power at anything more then 3/4 throttle, even with a new fuel filter. I suspected fuel starvation, so I dropped the gas tank and installed a 155lph pump and then drove the car and ALL the power was there. A week or so later it's not a bad idea to pour in a bottle of good quality fuel injector cleaner in when u fill-up either.

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #41
You should use a T-fitting and tap into a vacuum line. The manifold vacuum should be in the 17 - 21 inHg range at engine idle, accessories off.
1988 Thunderbird
306 HO w/ A9P processor
AOD w/ Transgo Reprogrammer
Full Digital Dash w/ twin Cyberdyne A-pillar gauges 
245/50/16 Tires on Snowflakes
Engine swap - CA smog compliant

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #42
borrowed a vac gauge from my uncle, forked over $40 for a fuel press. gauge.
 
vac test
 
started up, 16 in, but the idle was high. it came down and stayed at normal idle, tiny bit over 17 in.
 
gave the gas a couple quick stabs, waited a couple seconds, checked it, 18 in. it stayed at that for the next 2 minutes i let it idle.
 
fuel pressure test
 
idle 32. didnt want to piss off the neighbors too much so i just gave it like 3 stabs at WOT. first was a quick stab, to the floor and right off, but it probably just about redlined. sounded nice!:D pressure slowly moved up to like 36 psi. this is the same number i got each time, the needle lazily inching up to it. second time i rolled it on to like 3/4 throttle, then quickly to the floor and off. third was a real lightning fast stomp then off again like it was scalding hot. i actually noticed the throttle response lagged by maybe a half-second, maybe not quite that much but definitely not right with me.
 
first of all is this good enough? please dont tell me i have to test it under WOT acceleration. the hose on the gauge is nowhere near long enough to close the hood on the hose and set the gaugse against the windshield.
 
should i even try changing the fuel filter? i will anyway just because its old but is there a chance thats the problem or is it probably the pump?
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #43
Fuel pressure is ok the way you are checking it. Yes, ideally you would like to see the fuel pressure when you are driving wot.(You could splice in an extension hose) The fuel pump is probably marginal at best. It can't hurt to change the filter though;however, I would try some other things before changing the fuel pump right now.
 Did you check the rotor position as described in the previous post?  Spark plug's porcelin should not be coal black or clean white. It should be a light gray or tan color.
Hopefully, these will check ok too.

 Mike
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]88 t-bird: 5.0ho, gt40y, crane 2031, fms 1.7, paxton@5#, aod wide ratio, tci stall, performer rpm upper, 70mm bbk, pro m 60, 42#s, 3.73 7.5" posi, jba shorties, borla, upr x. 13.4 @ 104mph. cbaza, moates, tuned by decipha

0-60 mph: 7.1 seconds.

Reply #44
just checked the rotor position. right where its supposed to be. checked the plugs for cyls 1 and 2, look exactly the same, as in the picture i attached. camera is old and not good with closeups or im not good at it so thats the best i can do. but the tan-white stuff on the center electrode is on the side youre looking at only, and its like a buildup on the side of it, almost reminds me of corrosion on a battery terminal or like pizza dough in a ball or something. theres also that tan-gray round stain, again, only on the side you can see, of the porcelain. goes like only 1/3 of the way around. but the rest of the porcelain (most of it) is pearly white, spotless.
 
the bent electrode is tan on the bend, dark gray on the end of it, darker gray where it meets the threads on the plug.
 
DARK gray/black on tip of center electrode.
1987 20th Anniversary Cougar, 302 "5.0" GT-40 heads (F3ZE '93 Cobra) and TMoss Ported H.O. intake, H.O. camshaft
2.5" Duals, no cats, Flowmaster 40s, Richmond 3.73s w/ Trac-Lok, maxed out Baumann shift kit, 3000 RPM Dirty Dog non-lock TC
Aside from the Mustang crinkle headers, still looks like it's only 150 HP...
1988 Black XR7 Trick Flow top end, Tremec 3550
1988 Black XR7 Procharger P600B intercooled, Edelbrock Performer non-RPM heads, GT40 intake AOD, 13 PSI @5000 RPM. 93 octane