struts and steering rack

Topic: struts and steering rack (Read 4264 times) previous topic - next topic

struts and steering rack

March 04, 2006, 08:54:11 PM

Getting parts together for the 11" brake conversion on the front, and was doing a little research, and found this on Eric's CoolCats.net:

Shocks & Struts Thunderbird (except Turbo Coupe); **83-86 are slightly different from 87-88 due to valving; no noticable difference in performance.Turbo Coupe struts are factory adjustable units and only work on 11" brake spindles. Mustang struts are shorter but generally fit and work acceptibly.

-Does this mean that I have to use Mustang struts, or can I use Monroe sensatrac struuts for an '87-'88?

Steering Rack 20:1 Ratio: 1983-86 Thunderbird/Cougar, 1979-93 4-cylinder Mustang
15:1 Ratio: 1984-88 Turbo Coupe/XR-7, 1987-88 Thunderbird/Cougar, 1987-93 Mustang 5.0, 1984-92 Mark VII
***look for the "15:1" ink stamp on the housing

-I didn't think that run-of-the-mill Tbirds and cougars got the 15:1 steering rack for '87-'88...?

But, according to this, I shouldn't have to swap mine out with the TC rack, right?

struts and steering rack

Reply #1 – March 04, 2006, 09:15:52 PM

basically 11 inch brake struts won't fit on 10 inch brake spindles. buy non PRC struts and you'll be fine.

struts and steering rack

Reply #2 – March 04, 2006, 09:22:10 PM

That's what I had thought, just needed clarification, thanks man

struts and steering rack

Reply #3 – March 04, 2006, 09:42:39 PM

My base cat has the 15:1.

I must argue with Erics strut sizes. According to Gabriel shocks and struts. 87-88 bird/cats use the same struts as 87-93 stangs. Same part number. But 94 up are longer. bout an inch I think.

struts and steering rack

Reply #4 – March 04, 2006, 10:02:12 PM

The reason the 11" brake struts are different is the thickness of the spindle where the strut bolts on. If you are installing the 11" brakes you'll need struts designed for the 11" spindle, or you can apparently just use washers (the 11" spindle is narrower). Or I've got it totally backwards.

struts and steering rack

Reply #5 – March 04, 2006, 10:53:09 PM

Quote from: Thunder Chicken

the 11" spindle is narrower

You're right. The 11" spindles has a 3/4" strut mounting point while I believe the 10" spindles have a 1" mounting point.

struts and steering rack

Reply #6 – March 04, 2006, 10:54:46 PM

Quote

My base cat has the 15:1.

That would be a first...haven't found any that are verified to have the 15:1 rack in a non-turbo/non-Sport/non-XR7 1987-88 Cougar or T-Bird. Carm and I were talking about this not long ago. We seem to think Ford printed that in all their literature but never followed through...every LS I've ever owned and crawled under has had a 20:1 rack. I think he can corroborate this too.

Quote

I must argue with Erics strut sizes. According to Gabriel shocks and struts. 87-88 bird/cats use the same struts as 87-93 stangs. Same part number. But 94 up are longer. bout an inch I think.

LOL....you're actually going to trust Gabriel's numbers?! Did you pull them and check? The 1987-88 Cougar/T-Bird should NOT use a Mustang strut. It has its own unique strut length. If one would take a trip to a reasonably respectable parts store, and pull struts for a bunch of different Fox body cars--as I did a few years ago--one would discover that they're not all alike. There are distinct differences between Fox and SN95 Mustangs, and Mustangs and our cars. What CAN be directly interchanged is 1983-86 and 1987-88 Cougar/T-Bird struts (excluding the 1987-88 Turbo Coupe, of course)...there is a very slight difference in the sweet spot but it's not noticable by most people. In a pinch, one can also use a Fox Mustang strut, even though it is shorter...the sweet spot is almost the same as our struts but it will bottom out slightly sooner--most people find them reasonably acceptable. When going with an SN95 brake upgrade, one has the option of using an SN95 strut, which is an inch longer in the strut casing. The extended length is almost identical to our cars.

struts and steering rack

Reply #7 – March 05, 2006, 02:49:20 AM

Since the 11" spindle is 3/4" I'll likely use Mustang struts then,
as I don't like the idea of 1/4" of washers or whatnot in a place like that, is it perfectly safe?
Or would it be better to make a spacer out of a piece of metal, 1/4" thick, and drill 2 holes the correct size, and use that, cause somehow washers just doesn't seem too safe.

That steering rack thing, I'll check mine sometime today, if it warms up more than 30*, and isn't raining.
I can compare with the TC, since it does have the 15:1 rack.

And on another note, I was looking at the TC's suspension bushings in the front, and it has some kind of light blue or gray bushings, that are really hard...as in almost like metal hard. I can get a pic, but it'll be monday before I can get the film developed, digi-cam ped out.
Would these be factory bushings, y'all suppose?
Endlinks, a-arms and swaybars all have the bushings out of this materiel, don't know where else they'll turn up.

I'm still surprised I even found a TC around here, it's the first '87-'88 I even seen in person...(I know, I don't get out much, haha)
They're just not that common here, only other one I've ever seen is an '84 or '85 TC around, and it is beat, but still runs.

struts and steering rack

Reply #8 – March 05, 2006, 08:49:42 AM

Quote from: EricCoolCats

That would be a first...haven't found any that are verified to have the 15:1 rack in a non-turbo/non-Sport/non-XR7 1987-88 Cougar or T-Bird. Carm and I were talking about this not long ago. We seem to think Ford printed that in all their literature but never followed through...every LS I've ever owned and crawled under has had a 20:1 rack. I think he can corroborate this too.

I don't think it was me you were discussing this with, Eric - probaly Chuck or somebody else that knows what they're talking about when it comes to suspensions :D

My '88 5.0 T-Bird has the 15:1 rack, but it's also got 10" drums and a rear sway bar (a pencil thin sway bar, but a sway bar nonetheless), which leads me to believe it has a heavy duty (or trailering) suspension. My old '88 LS also had the 15:1 rack, but the rack was brand-shiny-new when I bought the car, so I do not know what the original one was.

One thing I have learned with these cars is to never take the original pamphlets, nor even what is supposedly "common knowledge", as gospel. Take the 8.8" rear thing - according to Ford no T-Bird except the 87-88 TC ever received an 8.8" rear, but several '88 Sport owners swear their cars have it.

These cars were built way back when actual human beings had something to do with building them, and it shows when compared to today's robot built, every car is the same factories. Our cars could be special ordered, options could be had a-la-carte instead of buying whole packages, and it shows with some of the unique option combos out there. A GS with a full console and no other options? OutlawZ24 has one. A TC with manual windows? They exist. A sage green 85 T-Bird with grey (instead of tan) interior? I had one. Hell, my '88 LS had power windows, seats and mirrors, but manual locks.

Some of these strange option cars were ordered that way for customers, but a whole lot of them were built that way because somebody at the factory thought the car should be built that way. Could be the person hates power windows, could be that they had an excess of manual window regulators. Could be that somebody thought a "Sport" 'Bird should have an 8.8, could be that the factory had more XR7-spec 8.8's than they had XR7's to install them in. And it could be that people ordered 15:1 racks, could be they were part of the trailering package, could be that FoMoCo simply had too many 15:1 racks lying around. Hell, it could even be that one guy at the plant hated 20:1 racks and installed 15:1 racks into every car he built. One never knows with these cars, and one probably never will.

struts and steering rack

Reply #9 – March 05, 2006, 09:31:33 AM

OK...I did a little online digging regarding the struts. Keep in mind that this is "just what the computer shows":

Auto Zone
1988 Mustang 4-cyl
Gabriel Guardian - 801524
Gabriel Ultra - G56504

1988 Mustang 8-cyl
Gabriel Guardian - 801535
Gabriel Ultra - G55551

1988 Thunderbird 4-cyl
(listing is same as 1988 Mustang 4-cyl)

1986 Thunderbird V6
Gabriel Ultra - G56503

What's wrong with this picture? The Turbo Coupe strut would not interchange with a 4-banger Mustang because of the spindles. Unless Gabriel started packing spacers in the box, this cannot be right.
----------------------------------------------------
Advance Auto
1988 Mustang 4-cyl
Monroe Sensa-Trac - 71803
Monroe Sensa-Trac (Handling) - 71828
Monroe Gas Charged (Handling) - 81803
Monroe Gas - 81828

1988 Mustang 8-cyl
(Listed as same as 1988 Mustang 4-cyl)

1988 Thunderbird 4-cyl
(Listed as same as 1988 Mustang 4-cyl)

1986 Thunderbird V6
Monroe Sensa-Trac - 71716
Monroe Gas Charged - 81716

Again, wrong listings here. But I know for sure that Monroe does pack spacers in the box. Therefore, a 4-cyl and an 8-cyl strut would interchange.
----------------------------------------------------
NAPA
1988 Mustang 4-cyl
Monroe Sensa-Trac - 71828
NAPA Response - RR201828

1988 Mustang 8-cyl
Monroe Sensa-Trac - 71803
NAPA Response - RR201803

1988 Thunderbird 4-cyl
(Listed same as 1988 Mustang 4-cyl)

1986 Thunderbird V6
Monroe Sensa-Trac - 71716
NAPA Response - RR201716

Pretty much corroborates what I found at Advance Auto.
-------------------------------------------

Conclusions:

Can all these computer listings be wrong? No. Can they all be correct? As proved, no. Even if these listings are identical to those found in the actual store computers, there are still some unresolved issues here. Again, having a bunch of Fox struts pulled and compared is a good thing. If one company's listing cannot differentiate between a T-Bird's 10" spindle and an 11" spindle, don't you think maybe something is amiss there? How many times must people return parts before things get corrected? That's why I pulled all the struts a few years ago. Granted, I was working with the 11" spindle, for an SN95, with the intention of installing 13" brakes. But I did learn about Monroe packing in the spacers, something I'd suspected but never knew for sure until then.

Also...you have to ask yourself this: if the 1983-86 T-Bird/Cougar are virtually identical to a Fox Mustang, suspension-wise...why are there differences in part numbers for the struts? Doesn't it make more sense for them to share Fox Mustang struts, rather than the 1987-88 cars? We know the 1987-88 cars had a longer travel due to the longer A-arms. Why would a shorter Mustang strut be called for then? It's not logical.

What happened, presumably, is that companies started homogenizing the products to streamline production. If Fox Mustang struts are truly what's called for in the 1987-88 cars, then I feel we are on the short end of things--literally. Our struts should be longer to allow for more suspension travel. Again, I have had reports from people that Mustang struts work just fine but they also bottom out a little sooner. It doesn't really surprise me that they *could* interchange relatively easily, but I would think the uniqueness of each car's front suspension would warrant its own strut, as Ford originally did.

Keep in mind that I am also working off the Ford factory part numbers for the struts too. Now obviously, Ford likes to put a number on everything, so our part numbers differ from a Mustang. But don't you think if the Fox Mustang and 1987-88 Thunderbird truly had the same part, that that would reflect in Ford's part listings? There are different numbers for a reason. What that reason is...as Carm said...may be known only to Ford, leaving us to do a little detective work.

As far as the rack goes...Carm is right, it could have been an option on any given day. Also, his car has the towing package which *should* have warranted the 15:1 rack. My '88 Blue Max V8 has the 10" drums but the factory 20:1 rack. The V6 Max has 9" drums and the 20:1 rack. My old Sport obviously had the 15:1 rack. None of these were ever changed to the best of my knowledge. Carm, sorry if I drug you in here...I thought it was you that was involved in that discussion.

struts and steering rack

Reply #10 – March 05, 2006, 10:14:48 AM

I don't know if this could be useful here but an SN95 strut is about 1" longer than an 87-93 Stang strut both uncompressed.

My question is how much longer is a T-bird strut than either one of these? The reason I ask is that my car is lowered and I actally need a shorter strut. But in order to figure out exactly what I need, I need to know roughly how long our struts are when compared to the 87-93 Stang or SN95.

struts and steering rack

Reply #11 – March 05, 2006, 10:41:36 AM

every 87-88 cat I have driven has the 15:1 ratio steering rack. at least I assume it does, it has alot smaller steering wheel, but is also alot harder to turn(well maybe not alot but yeah). Is there any way to test this without getting under the car? it seems like there is only 2.25 turns or something like that, opposed to the 20:1 being 2.5 turns?

Whille both my 86's dont. I have heard that a tbird is 1/4" taller then the sn95, I cannot confirm that though.

struts and steering rack

Reply #12 – March 05, 2006, 07:16:47 PM

i guess i should also throw out there that some birds (mine was an 85 tc) have a one piece (tall) strut mount that won't allow enough threads through to install the nut with bullitt tokico struts. so caster/camber plates will be needed or locating a smaller strut mount.

struts and steering rack

Reply #13 – March 06, 2006, 05:33:46 PM

Eric, maybe another thing to take note. All of the replacement strut mounts I've seen place the strut about 1" higher as well. Also they change to a mustang style. But that still doesn't make any sense.

Oh and my car has the towing package as well. 10" drums with a sway bar.*edit*( I just noticed that you can just see it under my car in the sig pic.) Steering lock to lock is about 2 1/2 turns.