odd perfromance idea

Topic: odd perfromance idea (Read 1538 times) previous topic - next topic

odd perfromance idea

August 16, 2008, 02:34:59 AM

ever wondered about the metal plate in the dizzy that passes through the stator magnetic field and how important it is?

Ive often been curious if shaving even .001 off the correct side of each fin / blade would trigger injectors just a smidge earlier to complement perfromance.

just a thought but ive always wondered if there was something to be had by shaving the fins or even making whole assembly adjustable cw / ccw a hair or so to duplicate the results as in trigger the injectors later / earlier plus shaved to keep them on a wee bit longer.

Correct me if im wrong but this seems like something that could help groom in some of those more agressive cams with higher numbers that normally dont work well in our cars.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #1 – August 16, 2008, 10:24:55 AM

I wouldn't do it in a SEFI 5.0. The EEC relies on the way the *fins* are set to determine when it's firing cylinder #1. Altering it can screw up fuel delivery....

odd perfromance idea

Reply #2 – August 17, 2008, 02:48:37 AM

Quote from: thunderjet302;232225

I wouldn't do it in a SEFI 5.0. The EEC relies on the way the *fins* are set to determine when it's firing cylinder #1. Altering it can screw up fuel delivery....

yeah, thats the point, to change when the eec sees the time.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #3 – August 17, 2008, 07:20:09 PM

Quote

Ive often been curious if shaving even .001 off the correct side of each fin / blade would trigger injectors just a smidge earlier to complement perfromance.

First, wouldn't shaving the leading edge make the blade arrive, umm... later? Second, wouldn't just turning the distributor body .001 do the same thing? You just move the sensor closer to the blade, rather than the blade closer to the sensor.

Quote

plus shaved to keep them on a wee bit longer.

I thought it was that magic box hiding behind the passenger kick panel that controlled the injector duty cycle.

You must be thinking of diesels, where even the tiniest change in injector timing can drastically alter the engine's performance.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #4 – August 17, 2008, 09:46:37 PM

Yeah, that magic little box is looking directly to the stator for advice:flip:

when the metal fin is infront of the magnet on the stator, the injector "should" be off from what I understand on the theory of operation. How did you think the magic box did that anyway?:D

the time it was off depends on the width of the metal fin,,, such as the narrow fin for cyl 1.

after that, the air gap allows the magnets field to jump across to the sensor and trigger the eec to provide the ground proportional to how wide the air gap is.

you can put your key on and rotate the dizzy and see fuel spurt out on a cfi car. It happens just when the air gap is infront of the magnet. THis is with kOEO btw.

Leme know if i got that right,, or if i am bassakwards. If im backwards then this has been a useless and fruitless post.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #5 – August 18, 2008, 04:48:14 AM

Quote

Yeah, that magic little box is looking directly to the stator for advice :flip:

Actually, it does. It wants to synchronize itself to cyl #1, and then to know exactly when each cylinder is in position to fire.

Quote

when the metal fin is infront of the magnet on the stator, the injector "should" be off from what I understand on the theory of operation. How did you think the magic box did that anyway?:D

The same way it re-adjusts ignition timing, EGR flow, air injection, and fuel flow... by using its internal programming and external sensors (TPS, MAP, ECT, PIP, O2, RPM, etc). It just uses the electrical signal caused by the edge of the window passing the Hall Effect sensor to initiate its calculated outputs for the current conditions.

Quote

the time it was off depends on the width of the metal fin,,, such as the narrow fin for cyl 1.

So #1 gets more fuel (less "off" time) than the other cylinders? That seems like a silly way to build a car.

Quote

you can put your key on and rotate the dizzy and see fuel spurt out on a cfi car. It happens just when the air gap is infront of the magnet. THis is with kOEO btw.

Does it continually spray when the air gap is there and you stop turning it, or is it just a quick *pft* and stops?

Quote

Leme know if i got that right,, or if i am bassakwards. If im backwards then this has been a useless and fruitless post.

I think you're still trying to get your "more fuel = more power" thing from several months ago to work, since we shot down your "extra injectors dangling above the throttle body" idea.

(This should probably be in Engine Tech)

odd perfromance idea

Reply #6 – August 18, 2008, 10:59:30 PM

Quote from: MasterBlaster;232495

So #1 gets more fuel (less "off" time) than the other cylinders? That seems like a silly way to build a car.
[COLOR="Red"]Actually, cyl 1 gets more or less of something due to this from what i understand. [/COLOR]

Does it continually spray when the air gap is there and you stop turning it, or is it just a quick *pft* and stops?
[COLOR="Red"]Just a pft[/COLOR]

I think you're still trying to get your "more fuel = more power" thing from several months ago to work, since we shot down your "extra injectors dangling above the throttle body" idea.
[COLOR="Red"]where'd that come from? feel like being a butt today eh?[/COLOR]

(This should probably be in Engine Tech)

[COLOR="Red"]I suppose but not really this isnt an engine issue.[/COLOR]

Im not sure about what you might think im doing, either way, if i have it backwards then let me know. I do not think i am backwards though but thought I would run it by here and ask. Maybe its a little over the top to be discussing here.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #7 – August 19, 2008, 02:24:39 AM

Quote

Does it continually spray when the air gap is there and you stop turning it, or is it just a quick *pft* and stops?
[COLOR="Red"]Just a pft[/COLOR]

So much for the theory of "making the window bigger keeps it on longer".

Quote

[COLOR="Red"]Actually, cyl 1 gets more or less of something due to this from what i understand.[/COLOR]

Then I'm sorry, but you misunderstand.

Here, there's others who are much more eloquent than I...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=TeILqFxk7AQC&pg=PA374&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=0_0&sig=ACfU3U2NL83wJZAZKoJ3AzwETIIg0R3aGQ#PPA387,M1

Chapter 14 Ford's Electronic Engine Control IV (EEC IV)

[COLOR="Blue"]Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) Sensor

A Hall effect switch generates the PIP signal (see Hall effect switch in the introductory chapter). This switch is called the PIP sensor and provides the PCM information about engine speed and crankshaft position. On engines with a distributor, the PIP sensor is in the distributor.

In 1986, Ford introduced Sequential Electronic Fuel Injection (SEFI) on the 5.0-litre engine in passenger cars. In a sequential fuel injection system, the computer pulses each injector individually in the firing order. To do so, the computer must know where the engine is in its cycle, so it can pulse, for example, the number three injector during the intake stroke for cylinder number three. So the PCM can identify the engine's place in the cycle, Ford engineers made one of the PIP sensor trigger vanes narrower than the others. As the narrow vane passes between the magnet and the crystal, a shorter on-time occurs in that part of the signal. This shorter pulse is called the signature PIP. The PCM recognizes the signature PIP as the second cylinder in the firing order. Being able to recognize any given cylinder in the firing order, combined with a hardwired memory of the firing sequence and having a PIP signal counting program, enables the PCM to pulse each fuel injector in the proper sequence.[/COLOR]

odd perfromance idea

Reply #8 – August 19, 2008, 11:46:21 PM

Cyl 1 gets less "on time" time compared to the other 7. I knew there was more or less of something having to do with the width of the vanes.

I am backwards though, thats clear enough. I suppose i could have cracked one of my shop manuals and found out the theory of operaton on the second part of the stator, I tried a while ago when i had time asking about what was inside the opposite side of the magnet. I was certain that the magnetic field being able to pass over to the crystal was the "on switch" and the vane introduced an interruption.

Now I see the eec is seeing an open window as a signal to "not" fire the injector and the magnetic interruption as a time reference to signal "on" the injectors.

no biggie, same prinl, just backwards. Its wired / programed opposite of what it could have been.

So, Yes, wider vanes would likely introduce more fuel if the air was also available. Seems like a very simple part to remove and have duplicated with wider vanes. I could imagine leaving cyl 1 vane as is but making the rest wider to some degree in the .001 - .009 range.

If it works , great, seems like an easy part to remove and replace if the test parts dont seem to work right.

Many people here are capable of getting the "more air" in easy enough, it seems the fuel delivery and cam combo's cause the biggest issue.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #9 – August 20, 2008, 02:22:49 AM

Quote

Cyl 1 gets less "on time" time compared to the other 7. I knew there was more or less of something having to do with the width of the vanes.

NO!

Quote

So, Yes, wider vanes would likely introduce more fuel if the air was also available. Seems like a very simple part to remove and have duplicated with wider vanes. I could imagine leaving cyl 1 vane as is but making the rest wider to some degree in the .001 - .009 range.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!

For the last time... The only reason there is a "window" is so there can be an precisely positioned edge to trigger the Hall-effect PIP sensor.

The only reason one vane is thinner is so the ECU can figure out where cylinder number 1 is in the sequence.

The width of the vane has absolutely squat to do with how long the injectors stay open.

The vanes and sensor are not an on/off switch, they're just a triggering mechanism for the ECU.

Chop up your vanes, fill the windows with silly putty, I don't care. I'm out of this thread.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #10 – August 20, 2008, 02:57:12 AM

Quote from: MasterBlaster;232657

So the PCM can identify the engine's place in the cycle, Ford engineers made one of the PIP sensor trigger vanes narrower than the others. As the narrow vane passes between the magnet and the crystal, [COLOR="Red"]a shorter on-time [/COLOR]occurs in that part of the signal. .[/COLOR]

odd perfromance idea

Reply #11 – August 20, 2008, 08:42:34 AM

Instead of arguing about it why not just try it and let us know how it worked out in the end :)

I would have a spare distributor on hand though because MasterBlaster is right.

odd perfromance idea

Reply #12 – August 20, 2008, 04:18:50 PM

I dont see the "argue" part, i do see that walley was a little hard on the beav though:D

I am discussing something that seems to have pointed out a conflict i think was worth explaining or clear up its meaning.

Its no crime to share information, perhaps i just have not had the explaination of the cyl 1 vane width as it relates to "on time" explained the way it needs to be in order for it to click.