It's always a semi-scary experience taking the car out for the first time every spring, at least it is for me. Those of you with cars in storage all winter know the feeling. I took the convertible out for a spin to get gas last night (before the annual Memorial Day gas price gouging kicks in). I forgot how nicely that ed thing handles. For a car that has no solid roof and only metal beams holding the entire vehicle together, I'm pretty impressed with the cornering. I took it out again this morning to get part of the exhaust system rewelded, put her through some paces on some back roads. I missed her performance. Nice to have her out again.
I've been in a truck (ok, SUV, whatever...it's a truck frame) for the past six months and love how much room is in there. I felt like a frickin' GIANT squeezing into the convertible. Sheesh. I definitely don't fit in Fox cars that well. I sure as hell didn't miss that! Then again, the Cougar just reminds me of how 1980's these cars were. Ergonomics? Don't think so!
There is not much 'utility' in a Cougar either. Although I have been known to cram things in those cars that should never have fit in the first place. My 32" Sony Wega television comes to mind. Countless large air compressors. Bumpers. Seats. More seats. I remember the night we fit 9 people in my old blue '84. How we didn't get a ticket, I'll never know. Still, I've pushed Cougars to their hauling limits more times than I can count.
So I've rethought my whole outlook on these cars. For a lot of people, they are daily drivers because they have to be, as the sole car. But I'm at the point where stressing storage during the winter, if possible, should be a priority with these cars being 20 years old. And to get another vehicle to drive year 'round. Something with, you know, space inside, room to haul more than 2 people, room to put your stuff without sacrificing any interior space...things of that nature. This will help preserve our cars for the future. I'm convinced this is the way it has to be since a) they're 20 years old, and b) nobody is making the parts we need. We're on our own and have to fend for ourselves.
I guess once I stepped outside the daily-driver Cougar and into a completely different vehicle, I began to see our cars from a totally new point of view. I don't think it's possible for me to go back to a Cougar every day. And I don't want to. It's kind of scaring me. Am I liking the Mountaineer more than I should, or has the reality of the Cougar's shortcomings finally sunk in, 20 years hence?
I think it's more of the latter.
Times have changed...I've stepped into the 1990's and it's getting more difficult to look back. Newer cars are, in most respects, better all around for what we need. Our cars are getting more nostalgic. Oh they're still great cars, don't get me wrong, and will still do most things well. They just don't do what I need them to do anymore. I guess that's another reason why selling the Blue Max isn't hurting my feelings. I look at that car and see a thing of beauty, but don't feel it like I used to. At least not with that car. Still love the convertible, still want to keep it, still have long-range plans for it, still want to drive it, to push it further into design and power. But not for the Blue Max(es). Maybe I need to invest in a huge storage garage for all these cars and keep them, fix them, push them when time permits.
In any case, I've changed my views permanently now. I used to crack on SUV's and minivans. But they serve a purpose...there is a reason for everything. And now I have become one of those people that has one. But I don't think it's a bad thing. I just shifted priorities. I now believe we should be preserving and driving these cars at our discretion, not because we need to.
Your thoughts? Am I crazier than usual...or is there substance to what I believe?
You sure thats a mercury mountaineer your driving and not the mercury mistress! didnt know they had that kind of effect. Haha J/k. I agree in that I do not use my cougars as daily drivers mainly to preserve them but also because of all those things you mentioned. I like not worrying about the car sitting outside and getting damaged, someone hittng me and then trying to find parts ect, plus the luxrys of nerwer cars when it comes to a daily driver. O yeah sign me up for the cougar storage center/ restoration building. Now one of us board members needs to hit the lottery.
Oh the horror....Eric singing the praises of SUV's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:flip:
I understand where you are coming from I guess though. I have 4 Fox cars...all older than '84, and really only use one as a "daily driver" (the 80 Z-7). Even at that, the Scorpio is a better "equipped" car and I have been driving it more. (A Merkur is an even scarier proposition as a daily driver though :giggle: ). The Tbirds and Cougars will probably live out the rest of their lives with me as recreational rides with the poor Z-7 having to suffer through the winter.
I see myself eyeing some "newer" cars from time to time, but still nothing with much "utility", and none still speak to me the way these cars do. It's hard to believe my Tbird is 23 years old....but really that is just the body, and I still feel that with the proper gameplan of mechanical and technological updates, these cars can still be useful and efficient modes of transportation.
The biggest stumbling-block is restoration soft parts...Perhaps as we fend for ourselves in keeping these things on the road we can do more to help provide solutions for the problems.
I still NEVER see myself needing or wanting an SUV or a minivan. A wagon maybe, but a 4-door sedan (or hatchback) will handle most people-hauling (and in some cases stuff hauling) duties. A truck to have waiting to be able to use (but not drive on a daily basis...:yuck: ) would be nice to have again.
I could do a Tbird/Cougar as a daily, but unless it either stops snowing, or they stop dropping salt on the roads, I just can't bring myself to kill another one by driving it around here in the winter....the 84 XR-7 is dead because of this. I could drive one 3-seasons though, and once I get a few more things done to a couple others I just may.
Um...I dont know about you guys, but the trunk in my Tbird is quite large; probably a bit bigger than my mom's 04 Accord. So I doubt I'll have problems with storage. The back seats aren't too bad as long as the people in the front arent tall (which obviously isn't an issue in my Italian family). I like having my car as a daily driver, but it sure as hell isn't going to be used in snow conditions any time soon. Rear wheel drive + heavy body + V8 + snow/ice/etc = not good for regular driving.
Don't know if you'd lump a Mark VII in with Cougars and T-birds for purposes of this discussion.. but I find that the more I have to drive either my truck or my mother's '98 ZX2, the more I want to drive the Lincoln again. Nothing against either of the two other vehicles.. they both serve their purposes well. But the Lincoln is more fun for me and more comfortable for me. (although it's easier getting in and out of the truck when my back's really acting up)
I suspect I'd feel the same about the T-bird if the Lincoln weren't in the picture.
I know exactly how you feel, Eric - remember my post a few months ago about taking the 'Bird out for a run for the first time in months, after driving the Volvo? How truly primitive the car felt? It really does take an extended time behind the wheel of a somewhat modern vehicle to make one realize just how "ancient" these things are. I almost shat myself when I stepepd on the brakes of the T-Bird and realized I wasn't gonna stop, at least not like the Volvo is capable of. 10" front discs combined with 10" drums do NOT make for good stopping. The funny thing, though, is that until I bought that Volvo the 'Bird WAS my daily driver (and is once again as the Volvo sits in the shop). I bought the car with 47k miles on it in March of '03 and it now has about 65k miles. You have no idea how bad I felt when that odometer rolled over 100,000 km (62k miles).
Driving one of these things after driving a new car can really change your mind about them. On the one hand, it brings about a bit of nostalgia, but it also exposes a lot of weaknesses in a 20-year-old vehicle that even when new wasn't exactly state-of-the-art.
If you can afford to keep more than one vehicle it'd great to have a "time machine", but many people can't afford to, or don't have the place for more than one, and we lose a lot of owners of these cars that way. They drive a new car and say "Holy shiznit, my Bird/Coug SUCKS!" I do think a lot of these people will be back in a Fox at some point in their lives, though. New cars have solid chassis, good fuel economy, reliable drivetrains, and all that, but most lack the character that these things have, and the few times I've been without a fox car I've really missed them.
I guess it's very similar for any classic car owner. If you had a '66 Mustang it would not be a very good daily driver, even compared to a pedestrian Cavalier or Focus. But it'd still be a good car to hang on to :p
This is why my Thunderbird is now an occasionally driven "toy". When I need to go somewhere I take the Volvo (when it actually runs), but when I want to have fun or just go for a drive for the sake of going for a drive I take the T-Bird. I can also tear into the T-Bird without fear of putting my DD out of commission, which is why I have started buying things for projects I've always wanted to do. The suspension upgrades will start soon. I'm trying to find the T5 swap parts. I've got TC body parts and interior to go on. When the car was my DD I'd never even be able to dream about putting the car down for a week while I replace the suspension. When I can, I will be obtaining "classic" plates from the DMV (my car is eligible in May 2008).
As more people start thinking about these cars as something that should be kept for special occasions, or at least preserved by keeping salt away, they will obtain more of a following. Right now people think I'm crazy for putting an 80's Thunderbird away while I drive a car worth four times as much in the winter, but I like the T-Bird and want to preserve it. As it ages people won't think I'm so crazy (at least I hope so...)
A lack of ergonomic comfort in a Cougar? I say thats unheard of!
Theres something I have to deal with everyday as I still use my 88 Cougar as a daily. While I still feal excited when I open the door to the Cat and plop my but in the seat I soon realize that I'm in for a ride after just a few short miles. I can think of a number of things that make me uncomfortable while I drive my car.
1. Lumbar supports too small of an area for my back to be comfortable.
2. The front edge of the seat bottom digs into my legs no matter what position I have it set at.
3. My right foot is never happy. Its always falling over into an akward position while driving.
4. Visability. Or lack of. With the shagy rear windows you can't see shiznit. I constantly find myself smashing my face into the window trying to see around the C pillar.
5. Some of you know that the steering wheel is not centered with the seat. I've noticed this causes me to lean in my seat.
6. Lack of tilt colum, yes the car has a tilt wheel but golly what use is that. The thing is still up on the dashboard.
There are more... but at this point I've further convinced myself that I am tired and ready to move on. The car is old (250k miles) and is looking like its going to go back to its former owner. I'm guessing you all know where that is.
In a pitiful excuse to convince you all that I still like my car I must say that I still after a year and a half smile when I walk out the front door and into the driveway. I love bangin the gears and going around the corners faster than most shiznitboxes can do strait, but it gripes and complains the whole way. Banging and clanking and leaking in all ways possible. My bladder is the only thing that doesn't leak when I drive my car.
I'm faced with a delima, as I've finally got a new job and will soon be able to afford a new car. I've found a new love in the way of a fixer upper and its sure as shiznit not my Cougar.
I understand what you all are saying but I didn't experience the same primitive feeling as someone put it until I started driving the 85 GS.
My current daily is an '04 Tiburon with a 6-speed manual. 1996 Mark 8 before that, 87 LS before that with a little bit of 92 Elantra and 86 Pajero mixed in there (lived overseas). I still drive a Cougar about 6,000 miles per year and the Tib about 15K miles.
Really, the only thing I noticed was that the less and less I drove a Cougar (after Labor Day 2002), and the more I drove my Mark 8, the smaller my Cougars seemed inside. Now that the Mark 8 has been gone for almost 17 months, the Cougars don't seem as small any more.
They have never felt primitive except for my newest addition. It feels primitive compared to my other Cougars. However, I know the reason - 3speed C5 and grandma suspension. I think the XR-7 package makes a huge difference. My other cars are tight, handle well, ride well, and feel better than my wife's Acura from the 90s. I'll put it this way, I haven't driven anything that so far "surpasses" my cats that make me think my cats are old or outdated when I get back in them.
I do agree that we should start thinking about the long-term and trying to preserve what's left.
I think I've tried to tell you all this a few times "Cougar God". The diffrence between the 80's and 90's is incredible as far as performance goes. I drove an old 66 mustang several years ago, and it almost killed my love for the cars. I felt like I was driving an old wagon, with a motor, brakes you had to hold to the floor as well as you could, and all this while you feel like you are almost sitting on the floor of the car. Love the look, hate driving one. Our fox cars handle so much better than a 60's, and early 70's car, it's amazing. When I go from my 205,000 mile 86', to my 04' mustang....well, like you said, huge difference. My 88' still feels VERY nice by the way to drive since it has been kept up, and I enjoy cruising in it as much as my mach1.
The 90' cougars, if kept up well, still perform very well by the way. You need to drive one of the 90's cats, one in good shape, and you'll see what I mean. They really drive and feel as good as your suv. Now you can also understand why the new mustangs are selling so well. Great styling and superior handling, even in the V-6. I wished it was my daily driver.
I remember driving my 72 base satalite w/68' 440 put in it. Straight line, man was it quick, easy 13's, go to take a turn and .......WHOA NELLIE, WHOAH!!!
Well...maybe I should also explain that my daily driver Cougars have been nothing extraordinary in the performance department. They've always looked halfway decent (thus the reason I get suckered into this body style!). But they have never been anywhere near the quality of the lowliest of Karl's cars. Even my '88 XR7 was a bumpy, harsh, unforgiving beast of a car...with a nice transmission. I have spent a little money, a lot of money, and an average amount of money buying these cars for daily drivers. And it doesn't seem to matter how much I spent, I always ended up with a car that I thought I was happy with. But now I realize that I was just happy enough...and now that I know this, how can I go backwards? I love them for what they are. But for me, they are not something I want to drive on a daily basis again. I cannot imagine never owning one though. They are too much a part of me to ever relinquish their hold. But now it's almost like I finally understand their place in my life. I don't want them to go away but I don't want them to choke me off from other possibilities either. And I think that's what happened for so many years.
I love the Mountaineer in every respect...I can see why Ford sold a shiznitload of those vehicles. Every dimension is perfect. Everything you throw at it, it takes. It is a throughly capable vehicle. But it's a truck...and it rides like one. Even the basic Cougar suspension is better than the best Explorer suspension, at least the older, non-IRS models anyhow. So it's a give and take. Right now I'm taking what the Mountaineer is giving and I am very happy with the decision.
Now...if I were to wreck it...would I be pissed? Yeah, no doubt. But I'd be even more pissed if the Blue Max got wrecked. Why? Because I can buy any part I want for the Mountaineer. Can't say the same for my Maxie.
So that's why I'm leaning toward keeping Cats and Birds as "the toys" if possible.
I fell back in love again today
I had to take the cougar out and get pictures for the new classic plates. PA requires 5 pictures, both sides, front, rear, engine. SO It was nice enough out to snap a few.
Man, this sucks. No one on this board ever saw my LS intact.
That car had 200,000 on it and was as nice as any of my other cats.
Never saw a garage, was driven over salt, snow, ice, everything.
I would LOVE to find a Cougar like my LS that I can drive every day without trying to preserve mileage. Like a Cougar in the same shape with say 120K miles on it. That green one just might serve in that capacity though. If it does, that C5 has got to go. I don't like the less-durable AOD but , I don't like a V6 spinning 4000 rpm at 65 mph either. I would probably be driving a Mark 8 every day if they weren't such pieces of quality-wise.
I drive After at least 2K a year, maybe more, the white 87 probably 3K a year, and I drive Before probably 1.5K a year but this is because I don't want to rack the miles up so quick because of preservation reasons.
Eric, I understand and agree with what you are saying except I still look and feel the same beauty or whatever that I did when I bought my first one 12 years ago.
Driving the Mark 8 and having the Cougar get "smaller" on me, I know what you are saying about getting back in the cat from the SUV. You have to be feeling an even bigger difference than I did.
Another reason I will try to keep the 88' as stock, and as in good a shape as possible, and why I plan on putting the XR7 parts car suspension into my 86'. Even a freind at work liked the way my Black 88' handled. Maybe you should look into putting an XR7 suspension into your convertible one day. My 86' LS never felt as good as the my 88' XR7 does.
By the length of the list, I would suspect he surpassed what the stock XR-7 suspension can do:
http://www.coolcats.net/eric/86convertible/techinfo.html
After driving my Ford Escape(y, especially when I'm 6'3''), I cant stay away from my Cougars. Even though my 86 is the biggest P.O.S. I have ever owned(still a nice car) I love sitting in it dreaming of what it could be and what it is even with a broken motor mount. I fall in love with these cars all over again after being away. I am deadly awaiting the day my 84 gets a heater core and I can slide corners. I've been waiting for a long time just to find a decent set of Cobra Rs for it. I love old cars, and I cant stay away, no matter the condition. You find any car, no matter what it is I will make it half way appreciatable. I cant stop modding things, these are the most perfect cars for it. By now I think you understand. Some have different opinions. Well thats my 2 cents. Not that its a big deal.
Everyone has big posts in this thread!
Aw you guys are a bunch of poopers :p
I'll admit that sometimes I wish I could have new-car reliability, but I still love my car. It's a great cruiser, it's comfortable (I drove for 4 1/2 hours in one stretch coming home from st. louis, I could never do that in my Mustang). Plus, although it's not quite the same, I did go from driving a '94 Tempo to this thing and I have to say it's an improvement all around (except for the gas mileage).
But I love my car because it's old, it's cool, you don't see decent Thunderbirds anymore, it's pretty quick for what little I have invested in it (about $3000 total including the price of the car), and I like the fact it's simple and easy to work on.
I look forward to when I can really go through the suspension on my car and get it repainted, and get the body all fixed up.
Propably right about that, but I think there is a little extra something about the way the 87' & 88' XR7's are set up in the rear that makes a bit of a difference. I think there is an extra little spring set up in the rear that I never hear about on the board. I'm not a mechanic, so I'm not one to explain.
I've definitely always felt a car is more than the sum of its parts. You've got to believe after 15-20 years, cars have evolved to better cater to commuters, even though it doesn't show up on the spec sheets...
Exactly, Andrew. And I found that out firsthand.
Y'all have to remember something, too. My first Cougar was bought in May 1987. That's 19 years ago. I don't know if there's anyone else on this board that has stuck with these cars that long (maybe Tom...?). So that's all I've known for two decades. Now I know that same car, but from a different point of view.
I'm thinking that in the fall, when I revamp COOL CATS slightly, that the direction is going to shift toward restoration and preservation, rather than continuous modification. Not that there's anything wrong with that...hell, I'm Guilty Party #1 LOL...but I'm getting e-mail from a lot of people that are looking to restore and preserve. Even my own parts collection has a signficant amount of NOS items. My personal feeling is that the time is correct to start advocating preservation and restoration to the general public.
It's like I have a new set of eyes. I'm seeing things invertedly. My gut says I'm right...and it hasn't failed me yet. I found all you guys because my gut told me to start a website. Things happen for a reason...
I took my Tbird out of storage April 1st and I realized how much I missed it. The 5.0 makes the car feel stronger than it really is. After replacing the shocks and struts with new Monroe Sensatracs and adding poly bushings the car feels really tight. It rides nice and firm and corners pretty well for a car with out the handling suspension.
I can tell the car has a much different feel compaired to newer cars. After driving newer cars all winter I can tell how far cars have come from the 80s. New cars (98 Honda Accord 03 Saturn Vue) have much better utility than my Tbird. They have folding seats, better ergonomics and get much better gas mileage. Newer cars have so much better laid out interiors than these cars it's amazing. Other cars feel so much more roomy than my Tbird. I get in a newer car and I feel like I have so much room. When I sit in the Tbird it feels like I'm much more conected with the car because of how much tighter the interior feels. When I sit in the drivers seat the windshield is close to my head and the drive shaft hump separates me into my own pen 15pit like area. These cars are rather large but have bad packaging. For there size they are a little cramped.
Now I totally agree with the preservation idea. My Tbird only comes out in the summer and durring sunny weather. Most of the time when it comes out it's only to go to a show or go for a drive. It hasen't even seen rain in over 2 years and I only wash it once every two months. The rest of the time I just dust it. Will I ever get rid of this car? If I can help it probably not. Is it perfect? No it has a few dings and chips but it looks almost like new. I just love the look of the car and how it runs. I plan to repaint the car in factory colors and rebuild the 5.0 with a HO cam and a nice set of heads and intake. These cars have something cars now don't have: style. Sure compaired to new cars they are dated but as Eric said the newest ones are 18 years old. Cars have evolved, which is a good thing.
I really dont get the whole tight fit thing in my box birds, I didnt think the design changed that much but I feel like i'm standing in a field from the drivers seat of my cars I was only in my 86 tc long enough to tow it down the road so I cant really compare. I know that my tbird will never be a daily driver again and it will never drive a winter for as long as I own it. It wont drive/handle like a new car but thats part of the experience to me, to feel what it was like 'back in the day' cruising in your classy new tbird. Personally I wouldnt want it to be like a new car..
With gas prices being so high and the fuel mileage on these cars being so low (especially for the power since I have the 5.0 SO), I've considered replacing my tbird with another car, but I just can't. My parents recently bought an 05 Grand Am and I was sold the first time I drove this car. It handles great, rides really well, stops good, and has great power, while getting over 26mpg. Comparing that to my Thunderbird, which gets around 18mpg, it kills me to see this car outperform mine while also being more efficient. It almost makes me switch.
But then I think about how I'd really feel about driving any other car, and realize there's no way I could drive anything else. First off is all of the work I've put into it so far. Just thinking about all I've invested into this car makes me think that I'd just be throwing it away. I also think about how everybody else views me with this car. All of my friends know me as driving the Thunderchicken It's one of the things I'm known by so I'd be giving that up just so I could get better gas mileage. Not very often do I see any fox bodies in my area, let alone 87-88 Thunderbirds. Any that I do see are never nearly as clean or modded as mine so that is another plus, being one of the few Thunderbirds in my area.
Another point to bring up is how easy these cars are to work on. A buddy of mine bought an 05 Colorado a while back, and there was nothing that could be done to this truck without having a computer involved. With new vehicles, everything is run by a computer anymore, there is hardly any raw mechanics involved. If you ever want to add performance to a new car you are looking at big bucks. With my buddy's Colorado it cost $100 for a simple wiring harness to hook up an aftermarket headunit. Hell, in my thunderbird I was able to rewire the whole stereo without having to worry about messing up anything. I'd like to see that done as easy in a newer vehicle. In my opinion, these cars fall right in the middle of old and new technology. They cars are new enough that you can still get parts if you need them, but they are old enough that you're not spending big $$$ for parts which you need to hire a mechanic to install. You're also able to easily fabricate something to work on these cars, rather than being forced to buy parts that are car specific. These cars are perfect for the do-it-yourselfer who still doesnt want to get their hands too full.
Very well said BIgmeat. I loved ur post.
I suppose I could chime into this discussion.
I've been in an MN12 for the past two years. Before that I had an '88 XR7, and an '86 GS before that. I've been driving Cougars for nearly eight years now.
While my '96 has all of the cool options, I'm tired of driving it. Plain and simple. The interior is much too wide (as Jim pointed out to me before), the exterior looks do almost nothing for me, and I'm certainly limited in what I can do for it.
Driving the '96 has its good and bad parts: It's much, much faster than the other Cougars I've had, and I love hanging the tail-end out around turns. However, it's nothing like driving a Fox car (besides better brakes). I hate driving the '96 on the interstate because it has that stupid "speed-sensitive" steering option. Steering the car on the interstate is like turning a ship propeller in a bucket of dirt... with your hands.
I never used to get irritated when I was driving my Fox Cougars. In fact, I would get excited every time I unlocked the door and keyed the 5.0 into life. I never got tired of that.
Now, however, with the purchase of a certain '86 XR-7 5-speed, I'll be back in the Fox game and loving every minute of it.
I've had fun with my MN12, though. It's been dead reliable and pulls its own weight. It just doesn't "tickle my pickle" like the Fox cars do.
Anybody interested in a '96 Cougar?
My parents bought a 1985 Cougar in 1990. Mom wrecked the Bonneville and they needed a car fast. The guy that owned the Cougar went to church with us and he offered to sell it to them whatever the insurance company gave them for the Pontiac.
So they ended up getting a five year old Cougar for $976. And, six years and a long story later, that Cougar became my first car. Since then I've driven three other Cougars, including a mint 20th anniversary and a supercharged XR7. Are these cars "dated?" You bet your ass they are. But, then again, I think they are less dated than other cars their age. They've held up well over the years.
I wish I could afford to do all the things I want to do to the Cougar and keep it parked most of the time. Right now, though, I can't. So I drive it every single day. I've had it since October of '02 and it has never left me stranded and starts every time. It's probably the most reliable Cougar I've ever owned. So every time I find myself thinking about getting something else, I remember how well the car has treated me and that it deserves to be restored. It has earned its keep, as such. So one day the Cougar will take its rightful place in the garage and only come out on nice days or on the drive to Cat Jam. But until that day comes, I know she'll keep plunking along faithfully day-in and day-out. That's what she was built for anyway, isn't it? It will be a bittersweet occasion when I have to retire her to the garage for occasional excursion service when the weather is sunny.
So there's my two cents. These cars are good for daily driving, but excellent candidates for restoration and preservation as well.
Hey Zach, how much you want for that '96? ;-)
$4,200
She has only 62k on the clock. Hell, I'll throw in some wiper fluid for free!
My opinion is that you have to be really stuborn to own one of these cars. All the reasons not to are very obvious day to day, but you drive it anyway, because you want to.
As many of you know, back in February of last year, I retired my Cougar from daily driving duties. I purchased my new Tiburon and I must say it is a decision that I'm happy with and regret at the same time. The Tib is a younger sportier car (flame me if you see fit). It is both quick and agile making it fun to drive especially on back country roads. The car gets excellent gas mileage and it's nice that it is reliable and has working AC for those really hot days.
Now I've had that car for a year and 3 months and I've put 28,000 miles on it compared to about 3,000 on the Cougar. I get in and drive the Cougar from time to time and I must admit that it sometimes scares me. I can't believe I used to drive that car every day and especially drive it hard on back roads. The car doesn't handle that well, although it's better than my dad's Ram, it's not nearly as good as my mom's old '99 Malibu.
I recently drove it for a few days while the Tib was in the shop and although it was fun, I quickly realized that I had to be nuts driving it every day. I will certainly never ever go back to a fox car to drive daily. I'm not so worried about the availability of parts for it as I am it's reliability and practicality. Plus its nice to go somewhere every now and then and not smell like the exhaust.
Now am I saying that the Tib is the perfect car and is worlds better than the Cougar? Not quite. Although it handles, brakes and rides better as well as being more reliable and efficient, it is not nearly as comfortable. The seats in that car are fine for short trips but long trips are a different story. Last summer I took it down to the Outer Banks and after about 150 miles or so of driving my arse was killing me. The pedal location for the gas is also a bit awkward. I have to bend my foot around to the right as my heel is planted slightly to the left of the brake pedal. This wore on my knees after a while.
The Tib is slightly small for me. Unfortunately I didn't pick up on that when I purchased it. It is fine untile I drive the Cougar and climb back into the Tib. At that point I realize how cramped the Tib really is. The Cougar has the most comfortable interior of any car I've ever driven. The Leather 6way power seat and lumbar supports make any distance drive a pleasure. The pedals are located in perfect spots and never cause any fatigue on my legs.
So how did I decide on getting a new car? Well, I was much in the same postition Claude is in now. I got a good job, had money coming in and I could afford it. I looked at the Cougar deteriorating from its daily use and the breaking point was when it left me stranded twice in 1 week. At that point I wanted to do nothing more with it than crush it and get something new. After all, I sunk a lot of money into it and it still broke and only ran good when it wanted to. Well, I did one of those things in getting something new, however I couldn't bear to part with it. The Cougar holds so much sentimental value to me that I can't see getting rid of it for anything. The styling of the car and it's shear power always bring me back.
For instance I was so mad with the Cougar after I got my new car that I parked it in the driveway and didn't start it for a little over two weeks. One day backing down the driveway, the backup lights caught the headlights on the Cougar. I looked in my rear view and thought, man that car looks as mean as hell. I pulled the Tib aside and began staring at the Cougar. It had been months since I looked at this car like this as it looked no less than awesome. I ran into the house, grabbed my keys and she fired up on the first crank. I walked around the car listening to it idle and instantly fell in love with it again. At that point I almost wish I never bought the Tib. I wondered how I could leave the Cougar just sit and I soon realized that I made the right decision as I took the cat out for a quick spin. That five minute drive was a lot of fun but naturally that was due in part to flogging the car which is not what the typical daily drive involves. Driving it normally, I realized how clunky it was and how poor the brakes and suspension are in comparison to the Tib. I'm sure with the quality of Karl's cars, he has a bit of a different story but the 228,000 the Cougar has on it has taken it's toll.
So what am I saying here? New cars are essential for those who rack up miles and need something reliable and efficient for daily driving. Cars like the Cougar atleast for me will be reserved for fun and occasional transportation to work and such. It is in driving this car occasionally that it will be preserved plus it allows me to restore and modify without the constraints of "is it going to be back together for monday". I love my Cougar and I'm certain that I'm going to buy atleast one more but am certainly sure it will not be for daily driving and I can't even say I will have the attachment to it that I have with this one. Afterall, I have a lot of memories and both good and bad experiences in the Cougar. I'm sure there won't be any more now that it only goes out for fun because although it was a pain, driving it daily is what made me a part of this car and the car a part of me.
Sorry for the book :sorry:
I have to agree with Eric.
As many of you know, back in February of last year, I retired my Cougar from daily driving duties. I purchased my new Tiburon and I must say it is a decision that I'm happy with and regret at the same time. The Tib is a younger sportier car (flame me if you see fit). It is both quick and agile making it fun to drive especially on back country roads. The car gets excellent gas mileage and it's nice that it is reliable and has working AC for those really hot days.
Now I've had that car for a year and 3 months and I've put 28,000 miles on it compared to about 3,000 on the Cougar. I get in and drive the Cougar from time to time and I must admit that it sometimes scares me. I can't believe I used to drive that car every day and especially drive it hard on back roads. The car doesn't handle that well, although it's better than my dad's Ram, it's not nearly as good as my mom's old '99 Malibu.
I recently drove it for a few days while the Tib was in the shop and although it was fun, I quickly realized that I had to be nuts driving it every day. I will certainly never ever go back to a fox car to drive daily. I'm not so worried about the availability of parts for it as I am it's reliability and practicality. Plus its nice to go somewhere every now and then and not smell like the exhaust.
Now am I saying that the Tib is the perfect car and is worlds better than the Cougar? Not quite. Although it handles, brakes and rides better as well as being more reliable and efficient, it is not nearly as comfortable. The seats in that car are fine for short trips but long trips are a different story. Last summer I took it down to the Outer Banks and after about 150 miles or so of driving my arse was killing me. The pedal location for the gas is also a bit awkward. I have to bend my foot around to the right as my heel is planted slightly to the left of the brake pedal. This wore on my knees after a while.
The Tib is slightly small for me. Unfortunately I didn't pick up on that when I purchased it. It is fine untile I drive the Cougar and climb back into the Tib. At that point I realize how cramped the Tib really is. The Cougar has the most comfortable interior of any car I've ever driven. The Leather 6way power seat and lumbar supports make any distance drive a pleasure. The pedals are located in perfect spots and never cause any fatigue on my legs.
So how did I decide on getting a new car? Well, I was much in the same postition Claude is in now. I got a good job, had money coming in and I could afford it. I looked at the Cougar deteriorating from its daily use and the breaking point was when it left me stranded twice in 1 week. At that point I wanted to do nothing more with it than crush it and get something new. After all, I sunk a lot of money into it and it still broke and only ran good when it wanted to. Well, I did one of those things in getting something new, however I couldn't bear to part with it. The Cougar holds so much sentimental value to me that I can't see getting rid of it for anything. The styling of the car and it's shear power always bring me back.
For instance I was so mad with the Cougar after I got my new car that I parked it in the driveway and didn't start it for a little over two weeks. One day backing down the driveway, the backup lights caught the headlights on the Cougar. I looked in my rear view and thought, man that car looks as mean as hell. I pulled the Tib aside and began staring at the Cougar. It had been months since I looked at this car like this as it looked no less than awesome. I ran into the house, grabbed my keys and she fired up on the first crank. I walked around the car listening to it idle and instantly fell in love with it again. At that point I almost wish I never bought the Tib. I wondered how I could leave the Cougar just sit and I soon realized that I made the right decision as I took the cat out for a quick spin. That five minute drive was a lot of fun but naturally that was due in part to flogging the car which is not what the typical daily drive involves. Driving it normally, I realized how clunky it was and how poor the brakes and suspension are in comparison to the Tib. I'm sure with the quality of Karl's cars, he has a bit of a different story but the 228,000 the Cougar has on it has taken it's toll.
So what am I saying here? New cars are essential for those who rack up miles and need something reliable and efficient for daily driving. Cars like the Cougar atleast for me will be reserved for fun and occasional transportation to work and such. It is in driving this car occasionally that it will be preserved plus it allows me to restore and modify without the constraints of "is it going to be back together for monday". I love my Cougar and I'm certain that I'm going to buy atleast one more but am certainly sure it will not be for daily driving and I can't even say I will have the attachment to it that I have with this one. Afterall, I have a lot of memories and both good and bad experiences in the Cougar. I'm sure there won't be any more now that it only goes out for fun because although it was a pain, driving it daily is what made me a part of this car and the car a part of me.
Right on, man. Right on.
I used to get the EXACT same feeling with my '88 XR7. There's just something about its design.
Well said.
Bingo. As many times as most people here are doing something under the hood--voluntary or not--the pressure of not having another vehicle to drive is incredible. I can't tell you how many times I had to get up early to fix something on the car, just to drive it to work. How many years are you willing to do something like that? I know for myself, it was 20 LOL. Now I don't worry. It's like, you take these cars and not necessarily put them aside, but you put them in a different realm: weekend warrior, road trip duty, what have you. And that is what will make you appreciate them more. Or hate them more, in Claude's case. ;)
There is no greater truth than that. :bowdown:
You will NEVER get me to admit I'm stubborn.......
NEVER I tell you!!!!!
:mad:
I actually bought my cougar for the motor. I have always wanted to put one in my Ranger (5.0) and a guy at work was selling it for 300. Well to make a long story short, I fell in love at first sight. I could not bear the thought of riping the heart out and putin it in a different vehicle, also I had finally purchased my first "muscle" car and V8. My dad was proud. So I am patiently waiting to get the transmission fixed so I can move it with out using a tank of gas and then the restoration starts.
Besides I have my winter 4x4 and summer fun now. I am complete.
Dan
Now there's one thing I've never had a problem with in a fox car, is reliability. Aside from my alternator follies last year (which were self inflicted, trying to keep a six dollar alternator going) my white car has always started, and I wouldn't hesitate to drive it a thousand miles (in fact I drove it two thousand last October, to Montreal & back). My silver '87 Sport, grey '88 LS, and even the sage green '85 base were all dead reliable. The only unreliable T-Bird I ever owned was the '91.
Reliability isn't what made me decide to semi-retire the 'Bird. Hell, the thing is more reliable that that POS Volvo. It was preservation and the ablility now to be able to do some work to it that made that decision for me...
Same here, Thunderchicken. The only time my car ever broke down (so far...knock on wood) was when the all original alternator died (well over 100k miles). Then the auto parts store gave us the wrong replacement, but once that was fixed, she's been running like a champ.
Well, I can understand both sides of this it seems. My 88' makes an awesome Daily driver. The 86', well, maybe after I get some things fixed (205,000 on her) but she has felt like for a few years now. The 86' is why I bought the mach1. Power and dependability. I was getting sick of all the issues the 86' had. Always wanted more money in her.
The 88' was down for a couple of months because of a recouring relay from the pump issue (moisture), but after these last few weeks having it back and driving it almost every day again, I forgot about the mach1 for a couple weeks since it drives so nice, and was a bit more comfortable to drive. Auto vs. stick.
My T-bird has been dead reliable, well untill tonight. A heater hose sprung a leak on the way to a car show. First time something has broke while I was out, even though it's an age thing.
Guys guys what is going on here??????????????????
I'm not trying to start a flame war and i do understand the arguments of newer vehicles but hell i can never to this day see myself not driving my fox bird as a driver.
I drive new cars all day being a mechanic and personally they bore me,i love starting my 87 and hearing the roar of my 5.0,none of this is my car even running because it's so quiet.
If i won the lotto(never gonna happen)i'd have the 87 fully stripped and made to be show room but heavily modded to outhandle and beat most everything on the street(hell this year with 500 ponies it's gonna do that anyways,thank you VORTECH).
Now i drove my sc mn12 all winter this year(to rusted under the skirts to be saved)and yea it's a great car and turns me on for a v6(and i hate the 3.8L as an eng)but i was,i'll admit it scared and excited to drive the TC again for the summer.
With all the compliments i get and the turned heads you just gotta love it.
As for reliability,i think it's gotta be a 2.3L,3.8L thing because my 5.0L has never let me down,less the ocassional alternator or fuel pump which should be resolved with the 255walbro and 200amp 3g conversions,other than that it"s always dead reliable witch is more than i can say for nissans and chryslers anyhow.
I see cars everyday at nissan with retarded problems and recalls,dam lets not talk about that as they have to be the worst,not only that you think our cars have rust problems,you should see the battles we go through everyday tring to remove parts off of 3 year old vehicles.
Cyrslers are even worse,they still can't get their together,sure the 300s and magnums look nice but have you ever looked at the hoods or door bottoms of a 3 year old cyrco,rusted in the seams,absouloutley horrible quality.
Everybodies entiteled to there own opionions and i respect that but for me give me a good condition fox anyday over any and i mean any new car!!!
this is one bad ass ride i gotta say i have never seen a convertable cougar !!!
dominator
You gotta remember that some of our cars have been handed down. My 88', does not run perfect, but it does drive and handle great. My 86' has seen better days and feels like trash right now, especialy since the exhaust is in bad shape and shake violently as 60 mph, but eventualy, it will become my dream car as i can afford to fix and add what I want in the future. I've had people ask to take pics of it, and have had a kid come running out of a oil change place just to look at it. It just got complimented on today. Love to see yours by the way. Can't remember if I've seen it before, but the small pic on your avatar looks nice.
I had an 84' I let go some years ago, and it ran very well also. I've also had a 5cyl (one of the 6 cylinders did not work) cat given to me, and it was a piece of junk. Not every fox has been treated well in the past. The 84' is now trashed somewhere because the owner just doesn't seem to be able to take care of anything. You also have to remember not everyone has the talent to fix, or can afford to fix thier fox either. I know what you mean though. Gotta love these foxes!!!
True to all that and i do understand that there are alot of hurtin foxes out there,i used to drive what looked like a nice 88 but it was so badly rotted the frame broke right at the torque box.\
I was so sadened to see my 88 stripped in the parking lot before it sped it.
Although it was comforting to find my 87 TC in exactly the same colour and with more options the same week i stripped my car.
As for mileage i know what you guys mean,my TC still has under 100 000km's on it,93458km's to be exact and it's gonna suck to see it turn 100 000 but just gotta drive it.
When i put it away again at the end of the summer i'm sure it will be over 100km's due to the fact i take it everywhere,camping,road trips etc,the thing is so dam reliable,but it's all due to preventative maint and constantly checking the car over on my hoist at work.
Now i know most of the people in here don't have that luxury so i understand there side as if i didn't, my ride would not be in the condition it's in.
I can post pics this afternoon but my car is in readers rides at coolcats and there is two of my fav pics there.
As for the not taking car of your car,i see it every day with some of the YCP,S(you cheap prick)we get into my work.
Only oil changes for 100 000km's and they wonder why they end up with a 2000.00 estimate when they bring there car in for a check eng light after there warranty expires(duh)i see new cars everyday with only like 2-10 000km's with recalls and check eng lights on,luckly there under warranty but my car may need 500.00 worth of parts in a year and that's only one months car payment on a new stang at this point so you can see my point as well.
Plus as thunderchicken mentioned the depreciation as soon as you drive off the lot is like 5000 dollars,HELLO,that's just insane.
Classic example check out the 02-04 stangs,as soon as the 05 came out they dropped dramtically in value,there are tons for sale out here and no one wants them.
In the end,still love my fox-bird and always will.
I have had a bird since 1984, and other fox bodies prior to that. I still like my fox cars. Some aspects of them are dated but considering the fox was introduced in 1978 as the Faormont it is to be expected. The ride quaility on rough roads is choppy and always was, but these cars handle good. Comfort is decent, but in 20 years things to provide comfort/utility have advanced. I like my cupholders and multipe power ports. Overall driving my bird vs. driving my 2002 car is different. I would not say one is better, but i would not want to, nor is it practical for me to use my 20 year old car as a driver, as a matter of fact chances are the 2002 will be retired by fall 2007. I will however keep the bird as long as posssible.
I like my 5.0 and I am beginning to like the feel of having my 20 year old car be nicer than others 4-7 year old cars.
I think one thing is true it is OUR responsibility to keep these cars running and preserve them. As time goes by we will be the only ones who CAN fix them, or hopefully have parts for them. Even now most mechanics either do not want to bother with cars like ours or lack the skill set to deal with us. It is up to us to maintain the skills and info to keep these beasts on the road. Most mechanics do not want to or can not deal with eec 4, if it is not obd2 they are not interested. We know the intricacies of our cars others do not. Many view our cars as just old and will do hack repairs on them anyway.
I say it is time to keep presevation in mind.
I do agree with you,being a mechanic myself i hate working on old rusted cars that aren't obd2 but for me i know my old bird and the eec-iv so all is good(getting to know it better since the anderson install),but i do know that most techs shy far away from anything older,kinda sucks but that's how they are.
And you'll never get me to admit I misspelled stubborn......
N'heifer!!!!! :mad:
Yea if I want to make the TC feel modern, I just take the old Cobra Jet out... No power steering(actually NO power anything, other than brakes), stiff clutch, hard straight up bucket seats... Makes the TC look and feel great again...
And 33 years ago it was my daily driver... Actually took it to Chicago and Iowa in the summer of '76. With the July heat and the black vinyl interior we 'bout melted... Was a lot cooler in July of '93 when I drove it to New Castle PA and over into OH a couple of times, so we faired a bit better... After about the 3rd day it was feeling normal... So FEEL is basically what you get used to, 33 years ago I would have argued it was the best driving car on the road. These days it compares to a field truck...
A buddy drove the CJ back from a car show a couple years ago and stated "man I forgot how primitive those things really are"...
Nope I bought my first Fox Bird('88 TC 5 speed) in the summer of '96... I was paying child support and buying/selling all the Chevettes, and Mustangs I could get my hands on in '87... Don't remember exactly what was my regular driver, likely a 200 6cyl '79 Fairmont, or maybe a '80 231 Buick V6 Monza... Didn't keep them long back then... I did buy a Diesel '81 Cutlass Wagon(actually a sharp car with a set of Olds Rally wheels) in early '88, that I drove till '93 while I was doing some resto on the CJ. Thats when I started getting back into the performance stuff...
Your multipoint view of the Cougars is compareable to me and the CJ... Yup it's a changed world, and we've changed as well...
I like the idea of Cool Cats leaning to the resto side... Now since all these Birds/Cougs are 19+ years old it's time..
I honestally cannot belive a majority of the things that were said here. There is nothing wrong with these cars. There are things wrong with each individual car. I have never really had a problem fitting into my cougar, it more fits into me. Being 6'4, and at one point, well over 200 pounds, the car just fits. I dont have any problems seeing anything over the dashboard, or out the back windows. However.
My old 86 will never die. It has rust, it hardly runs, and it gets 15mpg freeway, max. This has never stopped me from driving it. I used to work for $5.50/hr, for less then 10 hours a week, just so I could buy a tank of gas and waste it in a day. Now, yeah $50, $60 and an up coming $75 a pop for a weeks travel sucks, but it will not change me.
When it comes to these cars, there is something special, not nothing. I dont know what it is, but it has alot of it. I probably havent driven a cougar in the last 3 months, but sometimes its all I think about. My freinds always ask about my cougars, and when I am going to fix this or that. I couldn't count how many people wanted to buy my $110 297,000 mile POS wonder how it runs car.
I have had to pull my seat out, throw in a lawn chair and drive to my job, with people who only wear suits and trade cars in every year. Not very impressive looking to say the least in that enviorment, but everyone got to know me by that car.
But back to the main point I was getting at. I hate power windows. I want to kill them all. When I get another job, I am pulling my "new" power window and door lock doors off and letting them rot in my back yard untill I take out another fire hydrant. Even though, you have to reach over ocassionaly and roll the window up, or lock the door, you never have to worry about it working.
It gets py gas miliage city, so I got a 87 v-6. It gets 25+ city and worse highway. Throw in a 88 engine, a t-5 and a stereo and it is every 16 year olds dream car. Wont have problems with it for years, more likely then not.
Even though things break on these cars, they are usally just that easy to replace. I could live my life having to pull the whole suspension on the front drivers side to change the battery. Or having to drive to a dealer the get a tire changed. Ever try the spark plugs on a new dodge? You spend 30 mins just getting the plastic v-6 emblem off. I could do the same thing on all three of my cars in the same amount of time.
Sure, you cant fit a 6x6' partical board, inside of the car, but you can strap it right on top. Or hell, throw a trialer hitch on there and pass bmw's up the slope of a moutain with a 1,000 pound trailor 4 people and a trunkload full of tools spare tire and camping gear. For what the cougars are stock, they are fine for a mojority of dd's out there if not better. And changing parts is easy and everything engine/tranny wise swaps out with a mustang, so it will always be avaliable.
Lots of people say the 5.0 is a dog, but even with almost 300,000 miles on it, I beat a majority of my freinds cars, even alot of newer imports. Maybe the engine has been rebuilt, or parts swapped, but there is nothing like passing v-6 mustangs and a majority of cars out there on an on ramp. Compair these cars to those of the 60's. They only fall short in one catagory. And even then its not that bad.
I haven't posted in forever. This thread definitely speaks to me.
I bought a brand new 20th anniversary back in August of 1987. Drove it for 4 years and totaled it in an accident. About 2 years ago I found a really good condition 20th online. I flew 1100 miles to look at the car, bought it, and drove it home. Reliability is not a problem.
I wanted this car to be perfect in every way. I have restored the car inside and out. It looks flawless. Anybody who has ever tried to find an interior for a 20th will appreciate the trouble I had finding that. It looks and runs perfectly with 128,000 miles on it to boot.
Now this is the thing. My other car as is Eric's is an SUV. I have a GMC Envoy Dbuttstuffi. It is smokin' sweet. It does make the Cougar seem dated in a huge way. I have considered selling the Cougar but it does hold a special place in my heart. It is as others have stated a "time machine". I climb in that car and I'm transported back to a much more carefree time in my life.
However, the car is always going to be a concern for as long as I own her. The big "what ifs?".
What if
1) I get into an accident can I fix the body damage
2) It breaks down can I find parts
3) I get a hole in these impossible to find seats (20th anniversary)
4) I do decide to sell it can I stand the loss that the market will bring
I loved my original Cougar that I wrecked. It was my baby. This car is well a car. Once I finished the restoration I was as proud as anybody because it is perfect. However, after the restoration was complete and all the blood, sweat and tears had dried it came down to one thing. It is just a car albeit a sentimental car and no matter how much I want it to be awesome it is a 19 year old car. It will never be as smooth driving or modern as my new SUV. I don't think that is why I bought this car. It was to have once again what I had lost to a very severe accident.
Do I love this Cougar as much as my original? NO. Would I sell it if the right money were offered? Probably. Is that likely? No.
What it all boils down to for me and me alone. My 20th anniversary is a toy. I drive it when I want to and am thankful that I was able to put the car back to it's original showroom condition. I probably won't put 500 miles on her this year. I'll drive it to work a few times, cruise around the Sonic, drive it to church every now and then. The rest of the time it will sit in the garage and be washed occasionally.
I'm glad that their are so many people here who love their Fox frame cars. I'm thankful for the information that is shared here. I'm thankful that my Cougar isn't my daily driver. I don't want to wear it out or risk tearing it up.
PeAcE