What type of freon do our cars cars use stock? R12 right? I bought a can of the wrong one last summer, and it sucked. I just gave it to a friend.
R12 is stock. You can't buy it legally without a certification.
....
It costs like 80 bucks here to have it recharged when you can go buy a can of the R134a at Walmart for like 20 bucks....
buy the kit and charge it yourself but be carefull not to over charge the system or you could cause some serious problems
Kit? What kit?
Ask the parts store about some stuff called Freeze 12. You still have to retrofit the fittings (probably only on the low side), but it's compatible with the R12 (won't matter cause there wont be any in there after you put the new fittings on) and the oil it uses, and it wont leak out like 132A does in old R12 systems.
Cool, thanks man.
I would not recommend mixing refrigerants, regardless of what it says on the can. Have the system evacuated, then charge it with whatever replacement you use.
I have Freeze12 in my car and it works great (colder than it ever was with R12), but there is some concern about the fact that freeze12 is highly flammable (it is essentially a mixture of propane, butane, and some other gases). I think it's illegal in some states because of this, but I'm not sure. I do know that according to the MSDS of the stuff in my car it has a higher flash point than 134A
I've also heard people say that it's hard on the compressor, but until I see scientific evidence of that I'll just chalk that up as people selling or using one product putting another product down. My compressor is now getting pretty noisey - whether that is because of the Freeze12 or the fact that it's an 18 year old compressor. It was a little noisey before I put Freeze12 in three years ago, but now it's getting bad (sounds like a supercharger :hick: ). I'll likely replace it this summer...
My compressor sounds like my air compressor in my garage... but its got 243k miles on it.
I've not heard of freeze12 but knowing that it is a flamable gas would make me not use it. I do know they dont sell it in Ohio.
Flamability shouldn't scare anyone in a A/C system. My old R12 sounds pretty harsh in my old '88 TC, but it blows cold; that's what matters to me!
If you need to (which sounds like you do), fill with Freeze 12, if the compresser shiznits out, replace with a j/k unit and dont worry until that one poops out.
Okay, then. Just make sure the evaporator doesn't spring a leak, or you may have those lovely flammable gasses spraying at the fan motor and it's sparky-spark brushes, or out the dash vents into your face.
I think it's either Federal laws or DOT regulations that prohibit flammable sources (like gas lines)
inside the passenger compartment, which is why Freeze12 (in the evaporator under the dash) is banned in many places.
I had mine recharged with regular old R12. Expensive? A little. But it's what the system was designed for and, IMHO, is the best thing to use.
One thing to keep in mind is it is illegal to mix R12 and Freeze-12, or R12 and anything else.
Freeze-12 (http://"http://www.freeze12.com/") is 80% R-134a and 20% R-142b. There isn't any propane/butane in Freeze-12.
The manufacturer recommends using the current mineral oil in the system and adding 3oz of ester oil. 134a isn't miscible (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscible") with mineral oil; 142b is (and is also miscible with ester oil). Since 30% of the oil is carrying 80% of the refrigerant, you can see how oil starvation can be a problem.
Another downside to Freeze-12 (or any substitute) is the mixed composition. If you have a leak, the lightest component will leak out first. This leads to an ever-changing refrigerant composition which, if given enough leak/refill cycles, can cause oil starvation. Also, no reputable shop will touch a vehicle with a replacement blend in it (unless it is to recovery it into a junk container). Each blend requires a different set of gauges and recovery/recycling machines ($$$) since cross-contamination is to be avoided.
A "better" alternative to Freeze-12 is FR-12 (http://"http://www.refimax.com/products/fr12.htm"). It is 59% R-134a, 39% R-124, and 2% butane. This mixture will result in better oil miscibility than Freeze-12. Although the blend contains 2% butane, it is not considered a hydrocarbon refrigerant and is not considered a flammability risk.
Hydrocarbon refrigerants (Duracool, etc) are illegal to retrofit into R-12 systems. Some states also ban the sale of HC refrigerants.
Lastly, the group at ackits.com did a test of R-12, R-134a, Freeze-12, FR-12, and Autofrost (http://"http://www.autofrost.com/x3feat.html"). I've given a link...but the abridged results are...
At reasonable heat loads, FR-12 and Freeze-12 outperform R12 by a smidgeon (probably not enough to tell a difference by the SOTP meter). As the heat load goes up to the ridiculous region, R12 begins to outperform the blends. FR-12 and Freeze-12 have almost identical performance, notwithstanding the oil miscibility issues of Freeze-12.
Graphical Representation-
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/ACKits80.GIF)
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/ACKits100.GIF)
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/ACKits120.GIF)
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/ACKits140.GIF)
Links:
Refrigerant Blend Compositions - EPA (http://"http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/refblend.html")
Unacceptable Substitute Refrigerants - EPA (http://"http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/unaccept.html")
Hydrocarbon FAQ - EPA (http://"http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html#q5")
MACS Hydrocarbon Warning (http://"http://www.autoacforum.com/MACS/HCwarning.pdf")
ACKits Alternative Refrigerants Test (http://"http://www.ackits.com/testresults/alttest.pdf")
Good info ^
And with all that info, who's gonna call him a liar???
Great post Jeremy...
Whoa all that's missing is the Powerpoint slideshow.
Thanks for the info!
My AC needs recharged or something. Ive been thinking of just cheaping out and dumping in R134A and if that doesnt work just gut the whole system.
I know that you can get kits around here that "supposedly" have the right stuff in it to keep the r-134 from eating up the seals on the older systems, dunno how effective they are, as I've never had A/C in any of my cars, just the trucks, and the F-150's all have r-134 as factory...
Besides, real men don't need no stinkin' a/C, LMAO :flame:
btw, this may make a good sticky thread...;)
Agreed. Nice job Jeremy, as once again you've impressed us all.
All vehicles after 1994 use R134a, So no F150 before 94 used R134a. The only exception to this would be Honda, a few snuck out in 93 with R134a.
Right on... My '93 Lightning is a R-12 system... As was the '93 Grand Marquis before I replaced the compressor, lines and acculimator and converted it to 134A. I have a '93 Aerostar as well that is a 12 system...
Not to argue, but my '92 truck has r134a...has a sticker attesting to that, even.
(Unless it was factory changed over, but it DOES have a coupla stickers stating that only R-134a is to be used..)
Does it have a ford part number on the sticker? When i worked at autozone we had a stack of stickers for R134a conversions that would come in the cases of R134a. They looked pretty nice and convincing.
now that you mention the part#, I'll check tommorow...
I'll let ya know what i find out..
JeremyB should be like the official forum debate team leader. You sure know how to end conflicting views on topics. lol ok someone make it sticky we may need this thread this time next year
I converted my DD TC over to 134a about 3 years ago when I did my first heater core replacement. I have a friend with all the equipment and license to do a/c work. We changed the drier out to a 134a compatable unit and replaced all disturbed o-rings with the proper 134a green o-rings. He flushed the system, changed to the correct oil and charged the system with correct amount of 134a (80 % of r-12 i think) It has cooled good ever since. The compressor started knocking last summer, but I assume that was because of 218,000 miles on it. We put the compressor off my 120,000 mile TC on it and it's back in business.
i hate this topic all together,,so many times people want to "just dump in" what ever they can and mix up things that most of the time wont even mix. Better yet,,fewer take in consideration the lubricants involved as well as the capacity differences of r12/r134/fr12 and how much of that PEG or PAG oil is needed.
While i was in Iraq, kind of got forced into screwing with this stuff and never claimed to know AC at all but ill tell you that i found out this is infact pure rocket science. Its like the whole operation of putting on a new compressor is like surgury.
Since most of the military compressors had a sight glass on the side to view the oil level, i did come up with an average applicable to the general mechanic. About 1/5th the height of the compressor will be holding oil but,,,, several cc's less if its hoses are existing because they will have a measureable amount of oil in or on the interior of them already.
we would literally have to pour pag oil into the compressor from a graduated half gallon container marked off in CC's until the compressor was full, this would give us the internal volume of the pump. We would then note how much it took in cc's then pour it back into the container. The compresser internal walls would steal a few cc's since you cant stand there and drip try the thing all day so we figured that math in as well.
Typically we took the internal volume of the compressor and divided the compressor volume by 5 on a compressor replacement only and by 4.5 on a whole new system to get the proper oil amount. Of course there are complications like 50 foot ac lines as well that you have to sharpen your number 2 pencil on and do the cc calculations on hose diameter and lenght , expansion presures and other .
again,, i hate this topic.,,,,,:yuck:
If you are serious about putting A/c in your ride the best way would to buy all new stuff and go from there. But if you are like me and don't have the cash atleast buy a new O-ring set and replace all the orings don't forget the schrader valve stems and the recevier dryer. Then take it some place and have them vac it down to check for leaks. Next it isn't all that hard to put in the refrigerent. If you don't feel comfortable have the shop do that too. I will add that if you are putting R134a in there that you put in the auto adjusting oriface tube. Also that should get replaced no matter what you do as they tend to get pluged up easily.