Is it true that mustang rear control arms wont work on fox t-birds?
they look about the same and similar in size.
im wanting to possibly get some new ones when i put in my new 8.8
but i REALLY dont want to waste my money.
thanks
Yes, it's true. T-Bird/Cougar control arms are a different length. I think you can get away with using the lowers because the difference is only a quarter inch or so, but the uppers are too different. CHE Performance and Maximum Motorsports both make control arms specific to T-Birds and Cougars
If I were you I'd just pick up the CHE bars.
http://www.cheperformance.com/cartgenie/prodList.asp?scat=30
For the price you really can't beat em. I hope to be able to afford some this summer.
For the straight line addict the CHE bars are a good deal. If you plan on any kind of corner burnin spend the extra bucks on the Maximum Motorsport bars. The reason is that the CHE bars uses poly/delrin at both ends which introduces rear suspension bind that causes a snap oversteer condition when aggresively cornering (you normally dont recover from snap oversteer, you spin... this is bad). The MM bars use a spherical bearing at the axle end to prevent (or at least reduce the tendency to) bind and a 3 piece poly bushing at the chassis end. For the uppers I would keep the stockers with stock rubber bushings at both ends. In fact, its critical that the uppers be allowed to flex through the use of soft bushings again to prevent the tendency of the fox rear suspension to bind.
Also, when using poly/delrin at both ends (in aggressive cornering applications) the bind condition puts tremendous stress on the torque boxes.
where can I find those bars?
thanks
I was told by a bunch of people on Turboford that the poly/delrin bushings had the delrin in them to PREVENT binding. Also, I thought that binding was only an issue with the upper control arms. The lowers are close to parallel and I can't see where there would be that much binding there. However the uppers are at such an angle, well I always heard they were what bound up.
I've also been told that it's fine to run lower control arms with poly at both ends, and uppers with poly at the chassis end and stock rubber bushings in the axle.
outofnothing, the MM lowers are available at http://www.maximummotorsports.com, but be aware that they're about $275 (for JUST the lowers).
Maximum Motorsport did a bind study. I pretty much regurgitated thier findings. I attatched the file. Definitely some interesting stuff...
Anybody ACTUALLY have these CHE arms? My buddy put some on his Stang and his rear is quite noisy now. I'm sure the hatchback has something to do with it, but geez it's pretty similar to exhaust drone... just not as annoying. =/
Dogcharmer do you have the original link to that MM study? I've been looking all over for it.
i have the che arms, their fine. your friend probley didnt grease them enough with the lube they come with. i got the che ones becasuse i dont drive the car every day, just all day once a week, but when i do drive it i race around back roads, or test how fast i can corner. (nothing around but fields) anyway, roads around hear are rough and i have no noise coming from the back with those arms at all. and i havent noticed any loss ov controll from the rear binding up. and i have people tell me all the time that they cant keep up with me in corners because they are on the verge of or loose controll of their cars lol.
nothing like first hand experience. thanks nate.
Like I said, I hope to get the CHE units, and I have torque box reinforcement kits (upper & lower) waiting in the wings for that. Should be OK.
Like I said, I'm sure that MM's control arms are plenty nice, but at $270? ouch. If I get a decent job this summer and can afford them I'll look into them, but otherwise I doubt it.
I was a little confused with the MM study though...why did adding the panhard bar to the stock 4-link INCREASE bind?
I have a set of CHE uppers and lowers. They're in a box in the back seat of the T-Bird, waiting until I get enough time to install 'em :hick:
Dogcharmer: You don't find it a bit suspicious that MM's study found their own products to be better? Tha'd be kinda like buying a Chevy truck 'cuz their commercials claim they're the most reliable. CHE also has a "study" claiming their arms perform better on the street than MM's products. I personally don't take either argument as gospel. I bought the CHE arms because I got the adjustable lowers AND the uppers for less than MM charges for the lowers alone. Knowing the suspension layout of these cars I really can't see how it would be possible for CHE lowers to create bind - like Red_LX says, the arms are almost parallel to the frame rails, so they're not gonna bind. The uppers I can see, if you had poly/delrin on both ends, but the lowers ain't gonna bind anything up.
Are they harder on the torque boxes? Undoubtedly. That would be true for ANY control arm that has harder than stock bushings. The soft rubber bushings are no longer absorbing road and driveline shock, and are not absorbing as much of the side motion when cornering, so the torque boxes are gonna take more heat (I intend on welding mine when I'm under the car). They're also harder on the flexible Fox chassis, which is why I got subframe connectors. Building a 400-horse engine is hard on the torque boxes too, but I don't hear anybody recommending staying with a stock So 5.0 :D
I think the important thing is to prepare your car for the suspension. Don't expect to install a single component and expect the car to handle or, in some cases, even survive. Strengthening one part of the suspension system (and it is a system) will reveal weaknesses in other parts of the system. Some things you can get away with (springs, struts, etc) but when you get to the control arm level the rest of the car will have to be strengthened
So torque-box reinforcements and subframe connectors are a must then correct?
I'm not knocking the CHE bars at all. I've heard nothing but glowing reviews from the people here that have bought them. I think the best testimonial is from people actually using them like Nate for example, and his results do sound promising.
That's true, but... The reason I trust MM is because I have bought some of thier products and am familiar with thier quality. They have also had a lot of success racing what they sell. Because of that success I trust the level of R&D that goes into thier products.
I dont fully understand why myself... yet. Maybe Chuck could give an answer. He's pretty good with this suspension stuff.
No, I got it off of the corral auto x/road racing board a while back and copied it.
Once again, I'm not trying to slam CHE or say definitively that one is "better" than the other. I'm just stating a personal opinion based on info I've read on the subject and my own preferences. We all have different budgets and goals and what may be fine for one person may not be suitable for another for whatever reason.
Just trying to provide some useful info... though I can't say it's unbiased because I consider myself a satisfied (therefore loyal) MM customer;)
During body roll, the lower arms are forced to "twist" as the axle stays planted on the ground and the body rotates. This is where the isolator stiffness (or resistance to twist/deflection) comes into play. As the body rolls to the limit, the roll stiffness increases. When it binds, the body stops rolling in relation to the axle and technically the rear axle will want to try and lift due to the twist. When this happens is when you'll lose rear traction. You want to maintain as much compliance as is feasible while keeping body roll down.
The body moving vertcally over the axle (ie over bumps, etc) does not cause this increase in roll stiffness.
I've installed the CHE adjustable lowers and uppers (non adj.) on my car. I was also quite pleased to be able to get adjustable lowers (& uppers to boot) for less than a set of non-adjustable MM arms - which would have been useless to me as the car sags already and I need to raise it a bit to fit the 28"x10" drag tires when I take it to the track.
I've said this in other posts, but these arms "feel" right on my car. You can feel cracks in the pavement more, but otherwise things are nice & smooth. CHE claims to have picked a urethane with a lower hardness to reduce the binding forces:
"Polyurethane Bushing:
The polyurethane bushing is designed to absorb shock and allows the axle to move through its complex range of motion without harsh binding or torque box damage. Because the poly bushings remain fixed without rotating, there are no annoying squeaks. We carefully select the proper hardness to provide maximum performance and prevent binding and damage.
Our Polyurethane bushings are engineered and manufactured specifically for our products ensuring optimal performance for any driving or racing style. "
I am not sure they are soft enough to limit binding forces that cause the sudden "snap" oversteer, so far so good in my car, though I've had my front swaybar off for a while now as I'm trying to get in one good run at the track. I'll be able to better evaluate the performance in the curves where the "twist-bind" is likely to occur later in the spring.