After failing emissions, which I was sure it was going to do, I went to running some tests on the car again. Same EGR/AIR codes that I pulled last summer (33,44,94) although the EGR valve/sensor and AIR solenoids have been replaced and the vacuum leaks have been fixed. Ran a cylinder balance test 3 times and all came back 90 (operating equally).
So here it is, watching the exhaust, fuel is just splattering out. Did a tuneup 2 1/2 months ago and everything "seems" to be working properly and it runs well, although very rich. Any hint where I should start looking? Could the throttle body be causing problems as bad as this? It could use a rebuild or replacement I'm sure, being at 199,300 miles. Oxygen sensors SEEM alright but they're another possibility.
Had a decent place look at it and they seem unsure whats causing the hydrocarbons to be off by THAT much.
Emissions:
Cruise:
183PPM HC
0.3% CO
15% CO+CO2
0.076% O2
Idle: 850rpm
805PPM HC
4.33% CO
16.13% CO+CO2
0.81% O2
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the exhaust color itself is normal (clear)
The reason I'm stumped is because the car runs excellent, but only gets 20mpg in stop/go driving and another 20mpg during freeway travel. Idles fine, never dies. No hesitation or anything. Already have enough for the waiver ($150 in WA) but trying to decide whether its worth fixing this or finding a good HO in the near future
Pull the vacume hose off of your FPR and see if it is squirting gas.
under the upper intake, correct? Have to work today but I'll try for tomorrow
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nm, think I found it by getting up in there...not under the intake. Looks like the FPR but other than it idling slightly higher or smoother with the vacuum pulled, there's no fuel going anywhere
Actually, it's kind of behind it...... The arrow points to the line.....
yeah, I pulled that. No fuel going in the vacuum line and its sucking like it should.
On a side note, the EGR valve itself should be creating vacuum, correct? Both directions at the EGR valve are completely dead - there's no air moving at all. Broke the line when re-checking vacuum under the hood so I'll have to replace it (was extremely brittle). TB not closing enough? This could cause quite a few problems
Your throttle body adds air into the intake where the injectors are further downstream. If it were not closing enough (ie. stuck partially open) I would suspect your idle RPM would be a bit higher than normal and noticeable at that. Start with the basics to make sure everything else is working right set your idle and adjust your TPS. Here's how:
Also as far as the EGR is concerned was the line just clogged or is the diaphram inside the valve bad?
Keep in mind the idle adjustment is for a stock cam whether it's an SO or HO. Aftermarket cams usually need a little more RPM.
I'm not sure what the actual idle rpm's are, just gave the number the emissions place had on the report. The "stock" gauge is around 700rpm's after initial warmup. I haven't had the idle surge up and down on me since the tuneup - and cylinder 8 was fouled beyond function.
On the EGR side, it has a brand new (as of a few days ago) Motorcraft valve and sensor so it should be creating vacuum, but it isn't.
what about the fuel injector on #8 cylinder,,,leakink o-ring (seal)
I tried adjusting the idle screw but its already out as far as it'll go without coming out...and as for TPS, I don't understand what people say about adjusting that and how to test. Testing is a bit of a pain (green and black wire?) but I don't know how to properly adjust the thing. So I don't take the screws all the way out?
Either way, be back tomorrow. Off to work.
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pulled iac (I think, front of TB?)and it dies, will not stay running until I plug it back in
Have you pulled the codes? Not sure on other engines, but the EGR doesn't open at idle on the 2.3s, so there wouldn't be vacuum in the line to the valve
Code 33 KOEO
Codes 33, 44, and 94 KOER
Code 90 three times during the cylinder balance test
There's no vacuum at the egr valve when increasing the throttle
Code 33=EGR valve not opening.
The EGR does not create vacuum. It is opened by vacuum. A solinoid controlled vacuum valve operated by the EEC supplies the vacuum.
Hook a vacuum gauge to the EGR vacuum hose and run KOER test. At some point in the test it should try to open the the EGR.
No Vac? If the solinoid were bad it should give a 83 or 84 code so check the vacuum tube between the solinoid and the egr.
Yes vac? With a vacuum pump apply 6-8 in of vac to the vac connection on the EGR with the engine idling. The engine should stumble when the EGR valve opens.
Valve opens? The EEC is not "seeing" the EGR position sensor move to the open valve voltage level.
Better yet since you also have 44 and 94 codes (thermactor not operating) you may
be missing the vacuum to all of the control solinoids.
You say you have gas running out of the exhaust pipe??
Are you sure it is not water from condensation in a cold exhaust.
Can you give some details about your car? What year, is it stock, what kind of fuel delivery system,etc.
actually, later that day I went to smell the liquid and although it did smell faint of fuel, it seems to mostly be water. The odd thing though is that the car wasn't cold at all and I had just gotten back from a 40 minute drive...and the liquid came more rapidly as time went on. The car doesn't use coolant (with an exception of the washer fluid bottle always going empty on its own) and everything appears fine from the rear (black pipes though).
About the vacuum, I feel vacuum at one hose going to the solenoid, but never anything coming out the other - at any engine speed. No codes 83/84.
This is just a stock 88 Sport with 199,500 on the odometer. Has always had slight valve clatter on the drivers side rear of the engine, oil pressure reads low at the cluster but manual testing a couple years ago showed good oil pressure. Other than that, it runs and idles perfectly - just not optimally on the economy and emissions.
A question though, where would I find suitable replacement vacuum hoses for these emissions devices? I cracked the EGR hose when checking for vacuum last weekend. Parts stores don't seem to carry anything that'll work for these replacements.
Any rubber hose the correct inside diameter will be fine, it's 1/8" I believe(maybe 1/16")... You don't need the thin plastic stuff the factory used(cheap)....
The EGR solenoid should open if you hold the engine at 1500-1800 rpms. If it has vac and is not opening likely it's bad, had one fail on the old '86 Grand Marquis several years ago..
yeah, I'm about to test all that. Picked up a vacuum/pressure tester so I'll now see whats doing what and whats not doing what it should.
okay, here's the rundown on the passenger side of the engine bay, with all the vacuum hoses. The Air bypass seems to have air PRESSURE during warmup and then settles at 1in Hg vacuum. Air control valve is at 18in Hg vacuum all the time. Now a question about the EGR valve...it looks like its running to the little black box (EVR?) on the fender that has 2 hose inlets/outlets and an electrical plug. I don't want to follow the line and break more hoses so I'm curious if this is connect. Either way, on one hose, that thing is at 19in Hg vacuum +/- a couple during rpm changes. The other hose barb has no change whatsoever.
What this all means, I'm trying to figure out with manual in hand...but it isn't easy.
That should be the reg valve for the EGR, IF there is no vac on the secondary side(to the EGR), its probably bad(vac portion). If it were electrically defective, you'd get a code... uhhh something...
thats normal... its the catylic converters doing their j o b
After messing with the air control/diverter valve, trying to figure out why it was only redirecting about 40% of the air, I found one of the internal seals broken in half and falling out. Going to grab a replacement tomorrow and get a new egr regulator valve since this one seems seized.
Either way, I don't think these are going to get my fuel economy back up to where it should be. I'm just about ready to go start throwing parts at it and replace the oxygen sensors.
alright, replaced the air diverter/control valve. How much vacuum should the egr valve receive? It now gets 4in Hg max
still throwing me codes 33, 44, and 94 although vacuum is good on both the diverter and bypass valves...and both function properly. Have the 4in of vacuum on the egr aswell. I tried swapping the vacuum lines on the TAB and TAD solenoids as well but it made no difference (in case they were in the wrong places). Running out of things to look for. Unless both check valves are bad, I don't see why both of these would still be failing
A rich-running condition can cause 44/94 codes. The ECU looks for a lean condition while it puts air into the exhaust manifold. If it doesn't see any change, it can throw the code.
Have you probed the EGR wiring to see if the valve is outputting the EGR position correctly?
What would I look for?
Either way, being a new part(s) (EGR valve and sensor), it "should" be functioning properly. Also, which of the solenoids should be active at idle? Air bypass is (shouldn't it be off?) while the diverter is not. Upon warmup, both are open. One other note, when both vacuum lines are live, the pump gets a bit noisy...should that be happening?
Oh, and a question, which of the diverter tubes go where? Can never keep the two straight.
edit:
Should be one when cold and one when warmed up, correct? According to that information, down would go to the cylinder heads (no vacuum) and to the rear would go to the cat (vacuum). Why does it have vacuum when first started?
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nm, thinking about it, it seems it should only have vacuum at startup for going to the cylinder heads and go to the cat always after that point...under which cirspoogestances does the air bypass lose vacuum though? It always seems live.
I can't figure out how to get to the oxygen sensors...plus the Haynes manual is of little help. Don't see how to remove the wiring, so using a socket isn't possible either. Please help :bowdown:
Autohole rents a special socket to remove the O2 sensors.
I tried pulling the wiring harness off the end of one of my new sensors, but it doesn't seem to budge. They should pull off, correct? (for use of the sockets). How am I supposed to get in there though? Exhaust manifold is in the way on the drivers side (unless using an open wrench) and I can't even find a way to get to the passenger side sensor.
ok heres what ive come up with for this.... if there is any relays in the egr curcuite maybe that could have gone south on you? also you said the silinoids are new. could it be a defective one out of the box? i know ive never seen a egr valve or the other valves on the air system fail. but ive seen the vac lines go bad also the relays and silinoids. or the remote possibility that the eec could be bad but thats very remote. but check all those out and see where that may get you.
Seek have you ever heard of a "crows foot"? Thats what the socket autohole rents looks like, the one they sell though is the long one with a slit in the side. Sounds like you need to rent the tool.
The solenoids turn on and off properly, so I don't think they're the culprit. Either way, I'm looking at O2 sensors at this point for the rich mixture. I "know" they haven't been replaced in at least 35,000 miles (since I've had the car) so figured I'd start there. Can't seem to get them out though. The ones in there have a 7/8" area to wrench on and a smaller area near the wiring. The ones I got (one from autozone, one from partamerica) only have one place to wrench at, which is where it meets with the exhaust manifold (7/8"). How I'm supposed to get it out of there with the firewall and exhaust so close to the sensors, I haven't a clue. Everywhere I read says you shouldn't have to disconnect the exhaust to remove them, but I don't see how else. I'm close with a socketed open end wrench, but there's no room for movement.
So thats what its called...I have a couple here in 7/8 and 1" sizes. The socket attached wrench
How to get it to stay on the sensor, I don't know. Have a variety of tools on hand but the angle just seems nearly impossible. More importantly, I can't even see the passenger side sensor, just the wire harness. Didn't think these things would be such a pain to pull
Upon startup, the TAB valve should have vacuum (to send air into the exhaust manifolds). Once the vehicle is in closed loop both the TAB and TAD valves should have vacuum (to send air to the catalytic converter). After several minutes of idling, neither valve should have vacuum (to bypass air).
The oxygen sensor socket has a slit in it that allows you to remove/install the sensor with the wiring attached.
(http://www.reesetiresupply.com/productimages/kl/kD-3259.jpg)
As per the EGR, if you see it getting vacuum and moving...but the computer is give you a 33 (opening not detected)...then you most likely have a sensor problem or wiring issue.
So far, from what I can tell, I'm always getting vacuum at TAB (well last time I checked, the prior time I think the vacuum turned off) and TAD is getting vacuum on startup, but it drops off after the car warms up. I don't see how TAD would be doing the exact opposite of what you're saying, at the exact same time, unless you have it backwards. Not saying you're wrong, but are you sure it isn't the other way around for the diverter?
Drivers side oxygen sensor is seized and I still don't know how to get to the passenger side one without removing everything in that part of the bay (smog, a/c, etc)
Yup, I re-read again...TAD valve gets vacuum on startup, and drops off once the vehicle goes closed-loop.
Alright, then that part is functioning properly with the new diverter valve. Old one only redirected less than half of the total air. I read that the EGR valve should be getting 5" of vacuum when active, but I never see more than 3-4. The solenoid should either work or not work, shouldn't it? Trying to decide whether I open the packaging and use the new solenoid or return it for a refund (since its electrical, the dealership won't accept returns if opened).
On a side note, after putting the car back together after trying to get the o2 sensor out, I forgot to plug in the cylinder 8 plug. Couldn't figure out what it was for awhile (just emptied some air intake cleaner into the thing). Pulled over on the side of the road. Its so easy to overlook something like that...everything still looked in place. Wish I had had a flashlight with me (which was stolen when my car was broken into)...hot exhaust and a poor engine bay light location make for a fun time.