Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: sum_weirdo on January 23, 2006, 12:26:03 AM
Post by: sum_weirdo on January 23, 2006, 12:26:03 AM
Just been wondering about this...my stock intake like most of yours I imagine consists of plastic and flexible rubber tubing running from the air cleaner to the fender well. Some 90's Mustangs I've seen have a similar configuration, only with some having aftermarket aluminum tubing instead. Does that actually keep the air any cooler? I could see it breathing more easily because of a smoother inside surface...
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Red_LX on January 23, 2006, 12:43:04 AM
Post by: Red_LX on January 23, 2006, 12:43:04 AM
It doesn't keep the incoming charge cooler, no...at least not really. That metal pipe soaks up heat like a sponge, I found that out with the intercooler pipes on my car.
Most people put on those purdy chrome intakes just because they look a lot better than the factory setup, and with the cone filter and smoothed out intake tract they make more power (and sound better)
Most people put on those purdy chrome intakes just because they look a lot better than the factory setup, and with the cone filter and smoothed out intake tract they make more power (and sound better)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: whitebeastxr7 on January 23, 2006, 04:58:33 AM
Post by: whitebeastxr7 on January 23, 2006, 04:58:33 AM
I have a MAC coldair kit on my 88 cat's speed density 5.0 HO and the darned thing keeps coming loose and gets twisted every now and then. I think I am going to put my stock air box system back on and sell the coldair kit. Too much maintenance!
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: 5.0willgo on January 23, 2006, 03:47:50 PM
Post by: 5.0willgo on January 23, 2006, 03:47:50 PM
Quote from: whitebeastxr7
I have a MAC coldair kit on my 88 cat's speed density 5.0 HO and the darned thing keeps coming loose and gets twisted every now and then. I think I am going to put my stock air box system back on and sell the coldair kit. Too much maintenance!
I have a MAC on my car too. Tighten the hose clamps as tight as you can and make sure you are tightening it over the metal tubing and the rubber and not just the rubber. Every once in a while it comes loose and I get extra air sucking in but it's not too bad to remedy.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: whitebeastxr7 on February 04, 2006, 09:12:33 AM
Post by: whitebeastxr7 on February 04, 2006, 09:12:33 AM
thats true, I took a little time and readjusted it again, so far so good
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: armyguy298 on February 05, 2006, 11:41:44 AM
Post by: armyguy298 on February 05, 2006, 11:41:44 AM
I am using the BBK kit for cars w/o MAF. No problems here, but it is considerably louder, meaning; I can hear massive air movement coming from the fender. Like a shop vac sound at part throttle.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: EricCoolCats on February 05, 2006, 01:54:14 PM
Post by: EricCoolCats on February 05, 2006, 01:54:14 PM
I have the Summit (BBK?) kit on the convertible with a mass air meter. Works fine, and I like the smooth tubes and slight Venturi effect of the whole deal. Less resistance, no sharp edges, and higher velocity = better power. Unfortunately I don't think one can really notice any improvements with a CAI kit on the street. A dyno test, yes...the track, perhaps...but on the street it's negligible. Kinda hard to justify the cost of a CAI kit in that respect. Another thing to consider is that MAF meters really don't like the junk coming off a K&N filter, so keep it easy on the filter spray and it's all good. They also will whistle on acceleration. It's kind of annoying...so turn up the radio, or get some loud lers, to cover the noise. ;)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Cougarcruisin on February 05, 2006, 02:32:13 PM
Post by: Cougarcruisin on February 05, 2006, 02:32:13 PM
The idiot ricers in my town think I have a supercharger under there. Let them believe that... they wont ever run beside me. HAHA
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Red_LX on February 05, 2006, 03:05:44 PM
Post by: Red_LX on February 05, 2006, 03:05:44 PM
The intake on my Mustang would whistle at a certain throttle position. It was kinda entertaining.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on February 05, 2006, 05:06:31 PM
Post by: V8Demon on February 05, 2006, 05:06:31 PM
A cold air intake MIGHT make for 10 HP on a 5.0. On newer cars, especially the new Mustangs people are seeing up to 35 HP and more at the tires. Keep in mind that ANY cold air kit on the new Mustang requires a computer re-tune to see those kinds of numbers though. With some (mine included) it was an abso;ute necessity otherwise the car would throw out a check engine light and go into safe mode.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 05, 2006, 06:13:56 PM
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 05, 2006, 06:13:56 PM
Quote from: Red_LX
It doesn't keep the incoming charge cooler, no...at least not really. That metal pipe soaks up heat like a sponge, I found that out with the intercooler pipes on my car.
Most people put on those purdy chrome intakes just because they look a lot better than the factory setup, and with the cone filter and smoothed out intake tract they make more power (and sound better)
Its a little different with intercooler pipes, and air intake pipes. You dont really get colder air, you could say that its slightly colder, because its smoother through the intake, and the air has less time to heat, but between plastic/rubber and metal tube, you wont notice anything, the air isnt there long enough, and the tube wont get hot enough for the air to get heated.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Hot-Rodder1 on June 27, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Post by: Hot-Rodder1 on June 27, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Do Mustang CAIs fit T-Birds?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 27, 2014, 08:57:38 PM
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 27, 2014, 08:57:38 PM
We found that a lot of cold air intakes are counter productive as far as HP goes. A lot of guys put on those fancy aluminum air cleaners and connector pipes that hold heat rather nicely and heat up the intake air sensor it sees hotter incoming air. In return it pulls out spark advance. We now do not use to much of those fancy chrome pipes that hold heat and we always relocate the intake air sensor in front of the radiator in the air stream far away from engine heat. I am doing a TC as we speak and when i am finished i will post all the sensors i have relocated and picked up a few HP to boot. Sometimes as much as 15* of timing is removed by the ECM because of an intake air sensor seeing higher than normal temperatures with those pipes. And relates to quite a bit of HP loss according to my MUSTANG when you are down 15* of advance. Have a good weekend guys.
35 wheel hp gain from a cold air intake in my opinion is a stretch at best, Personally i have not got that type of increase using my mustang. And we have actually tested it on the mustang with a net reduction in hp rather than an increase. The higher head as i explained pulled out timing and a substantial amount of timing at that.
35 wheel hp gain from a cold air intake in my opinion is a stretch at best, Personally i have not got that type of increase using my mustang. And we have actually tested it on the mustang with a net reduction in hp rather than an increase. The higher head as i explained pulled out timing and a substantial amount of timing at that.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: vinnietbird on June 27, 2014, 09:56:58 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on June 27, 2014, 09:56:58 PM
I will be having a brand new BBK chrome CAI as soon as I toss some more cash towards my heads. It's a "looks" thing. I need to get the engine compartment all flashy so when I open that bad a$$ hood....BAM!!!! In your FACE!!!! LOL.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Haystack on June 27, 2014, 10:39:40 PM
Post by: Haystack on June 27, 2014, 10:39:40 PM
I heard that the rubber tube has all those flutes in it to help utilize the venturi effect and will outflow an identical sized metal tube.
i dunno if i buy that personally, but i have seen a few guys who swapped between a k&n brand new out of the box. hethey all ended up with more power out of the stock square paper filter
i dunno if i buy that personally, but i have seen a few guys who swapped between a k&n brand new out of the box. hethey all ended up with more power out of the stock square paper filter
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: vinnietbird on June 27, 2014, 10:45:26 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on June 27, 2014, 10:45:26 PM
Either way, I doubt I'd lose, if any, a ton of power, and I do want the engine to POP when I open the hood. I have my own vision that must see reality.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on June 27, 2014, 11:51:31 PM
Post by: V8Demon on June 27, 2014, 11:51:31 PM
FWIW -- I'm swapping back to the stock airbox in my car. Gonna run it with the 73 mm MAF I currently have and am looking for a nice smooth plastic pipe to go from the MAF up to the throttle body. The airbox is sitting here waiting for my days off to install it and my new alternator. It'll be housing a Motorcraft air filter.
Interesting read here:
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
Also:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?857223-SVTPerformance-2012-GT-K-amp-N-Replacement-Filter-Test
Interesting read here:
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
Also:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?857223-SVTPerformance-2012-GT-K-amp-N-Replacement-Filter-Test
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 28, 2014, 12:13:09 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 28, 2014, 12:13:09 AM
This is all the cold air induction you need: the stock airbox. If it works on my car it will certainly work fine for a stock 5.0 SO or 5.0 HO. Just remove the silencer in the fender and you're good to go.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 10, 2014, 05:29:46 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 10, 2014, 05:29:46 PM
Quote
35 wheel hp gain from a cold air intake in my opinion is a stretch at best, Personally i have not got that type of increase using my mustang. And we have actually tested it on the mustang with a net reduction in hp rather than an increase. The higher head as i explained pulled out timing and a substantial amount of timing at that.
Tom, to be fair my example was on a 4.6 3v and included a dyno tune.
For a 5.0 windsor; yeah not gonna happen.
Change of plans on me fox...... Gonna run a new C&L pipe with a new 76mm.... Stock box just like Lou.... Could not find a plastic inlet that I liked.....
Next month I'm swapping the 70mm TB and EGR spacer for 75mm units. These will match the opening on my intake manifold. Clean flow.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 11, 2014, 09:45:10 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 11, 2014, 09:45:10 AM
The cold air kit that I have on my Coupe relocated the air filter to the inner fender area behind the passenger headlight. It sounds kinda funky and I do not like it but it gave me more room under the hood getting rid of the factory air box which I needed. I am still contemplating reworking the plumbing from the MAF to the TB as I do not like how the BBK kit installed, no smooth transitions from the metal tubes to the MAF and TB. If you run the calcs the factory shape filter panel it has 85 square inches which is not adequate for my 331 stroker as it requires about 98 sq inches. A 0.030 over 351 requires spinning up to 6,200 rpm needs about 107 sq inches so the flat filter panel really should not be used if you want maximum performance. Anyhow, that is what I came up with using a couple of manufacturer's online calculators and it is how I sized the filters on bot the cars.
Darren
Darren
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 11, 2014, 10:54:24 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 11, 2014, 10:54:24 AM
The stock box is fine for a 302-306 that's not revving to the moon. Plenty of Mustang guys have been in the 12s at 105+mph with the stock box. Once you get bigger than a 302 and/or have a high revving engine you need a different intake setup. Probably an Anderson Power Pipe or similar.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 14, 2014, 01:56:51 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 14, 2014, 01:56:51 PM
Found those formulas.....
I upped the displacement to 306 and used 6300 for a redline so as to have a VERY small margin for error. I'm 302 and 6200 respectively.
92.5 square inches.... Lets consider now that a 70 mm TB equates to 2.75 inches. So the area of a 70mm opening converted is roughly 24 square inches. Is a filtering element THAT restrictive?
Quote
Square inches of filter required for a motor = CID x Maximum RPM / 20839
I upped the displacement to 306 and used 6300 for a redline so as to have a VERY small margin for error. I'm 302 and 6200 respectively.
92.5 square inches.... Lets consider now that a 70 mm TB equates to 2.75 inches. So the area of a 70mm opening converted is roughly 24 square inches. Is a filtering element THAT restrictive?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2014, 03:56:05 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2014, 03:56:05 PM
If the manufacturer of an air filter element is providing the equations I tend to agree with their engineers and not second guess them. The filter element is definitely a restriction which is by design although they try and make it as little of a restriction as possible.
Guys have been into the 12's with the stock box but usually that is a requirement of the class they are racing in like street stock or something along those lines. In some cases an air filter of larger cross sectional area would allow the car to breath easier (less restriction) and thus make more HP but that is a whole other can of worms as I am not privy to the cars you are speaking of with regards to the ones running in the 12's. This is especially true of forced induction cars as they can create more flow across a given cross sectional area by creating a higher differential pressure on the suction side of the compressor so a smaller element will be more efficient.
Anyhow, the info is there use it as you so choose.
Darren
Guys have been into the 12's with the stock box but usually that is a requirement of the class they are racing in like street stock or something along those lines. In some cases an air filter of larger cross sectional area would allow the car to breath easier (less restriction) and thus make more HP but that is a whole other can of worms as I am not privy to the cars you are speaking of with regards to the ones running in the 12's. This is especially true of forced induction cars as they can create more flow across a given cross sectional area by creating a higher differential pressure on the suction side of the compressor so a smaller element will be more efficient.
Anyhow, the info is there use it as you so choose.
Darren
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 14, 2014, 11:05:19 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 14, 2014, 11:05:19 PM
I'm in the 12's now. The cone filter I run right now is rather large.
I appreciate the insight. More research on my end is apparently in order.
I appreciate the insight. More research on my end is apparently in order.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 15, 2014, 12:59:18 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 15, 2014, 12:59:18 AM
In my case I have a 306 that makes power to 5500rpm. I need about an 81 square inch filter. Since the stock box/filter is 85 square inches running it is not hurting my combo. It would be a restriction if I was spinning much past 6000rpm however.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 15, 2014, 09:42:07 AM
Post by: V8Demon on July 15, 2014, 09:42:07 AM
Looking at some of these numbers it would appear that many of the cone type filters that come with CAI setups might not cut it either. Look at the unit from SR performance on American Muscle. Looks rather tiny. My current one will support about 1200 CFM, but its under hood. I suppose I could run an elbow through the fender well that has a downturn on it and see if the monster I have will fit..... Either that or leave it under the hood and grab the corresponding metering tube for the larger MAF.....
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 15, 2014, 03:56:20 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 15, 2014, 03:56:20 PM
FYI-- YOU CAN USE MAC MAF CALIBRATION TUBES IN C&L METERS. They have a chart for them on their page.
Linky: http://shop.macperformance.com/MAC-Ford-Mustang-Calibration-Tube-for-MAC-Mass-Air-Meters-Calibration-Tubes.htm
Linky: http://shop.macperformance.com/MAC-Ford-Mustang-Calibration-Tube-for-MAC-Mass-Air-Meters-Calibration-Tubes.htm
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 15, 2014, 05:33:46 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 15, 2014, 05:33:46 PM
I have one of these filters sitting around in the garage: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mch-1411/overview/
Next time I'm at the track I may swap it on and see if it makes a difference vs the stock box.
Next time I'm at the track I may swap it on and see if it makes a difference vs the stock box.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 15, 2014, 06:11:19 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 15, 2014, 06:11:19 PM
I'd throw it on and put the march air box around it and cut a gigantic hole in the fender and the box. No snorkel tube.
FWIW -- Seeing as I will probably keep the underhood filter and make a heat shield for it, I ordered MAC's CT5 tube which is a direct substitute for the C&L black p/n 105. According to the sheet that came with the 76mm MAF and elbow, the 102/blue is for a stock airbox/fenderwell and the 105 is for a filter at the end of the MAF.
I wonder if they are sizing it differently for the lack of a bend or the fact that the underhood cone filter sees prop wash from the fan..... From what I understand the stock air box acts as a bend in the sytem just like a fenderwell intake does.
Interestingly enough, the only size injectors they make this distinction for are 19's and 24's.....
FWIW -- Seeing as I will probably keep the underhood filter and make a heat shield for it, I ordered MAC's CT5 tube which is a direct substitute for the C&L black p/n 105. According to the sheet that came with the 76mm MAF and elbow, the 102/blue is for a stock airbox/fenderwell and the 105 is for a filter at the end of the MAF.
I wonder if they are sizing it differently for the lack of a bend or the fact that the underhood cone filter sees prop wash from the fan..... From what I understand the stock air box acts as a bend in the sytem just like a fenderwell intake does.
Interestingly enough, the only size injectors they make this distinction for are 19's and 24's.....
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 15, 2014, 11:43:55 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 15, 2014, 11:43:55 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;435990
I'd throw it on and put the march air box around it and cut a gigantic hole in the fender and the box. No snorkel tube.
I would except I don't like the idea of cutting holes in the fender. Then it won't look stock ;).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 16, 2014, 12:13:10 AM
Post by: V8Demon on July 16, 2014, 12:13:10 AM
Neither does your C&L elbow!
:shakeass:
:shakeass:
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 16, 2014, 09:57:41 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 16, 2014, 09:57:41 AM
Just to point another thing out with regards to the filters, I do remember that when I had a Pro-M MAF it was calibrated for 24 lb/hr injectors and a cone style element. I only found this out after calling them for a transfer function table to take to the dyno with me by request of the tuner. I asked the tuner about it and he said it can make a difference but that he would take care of it in the tune. Not sure how much that really makes a difference but I thought I would mention it. I did a quick search and found a couple of articles about it one of which is here:
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1308-how-air-filters-work/
Scroll down to the section titled "Sensor Compatibility" and they mention it here. Again, I'm not saying what we are doing will kill a ton of hp it any but I just wanted you guys to be aware of it.
Darren
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1308-how-air-filters-work/
Scroll down to the section titled "Sensor Compatibility" and they mention it here. Again, I'm not saying what we are doing will kill a ton of hp it any but I just wanted you guys to be aware of it.
Darren
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 16, 2014, 03:57:06 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 16, 2014, 03:57:06 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;435990
I'd throw it on and put the march air box around it and cut a gigantic hole in the fender and the box. No snorkel tube.
FWIW -- Seeing as I will probably keep the underhood filter and make a heat shield for it, I ordered MAC's CT5 tube which is a direct substitute for the C&L black p/n 105. According to the sheet that came with the 76mm MAF and elbow, the 102/blue is for a stock airbox/fenderwell and the 105 is for a filter at the end of the MAF.
I wonder if they are sizing it differently for the lack of a bend or the fact that the underhood cone filter sees prop wash from the fan..... From what I understand the stock air box acts as a bend in the sytem just like a fenderwell intake does.
Interestingly enough, the only size injectors they make this distinction for are 19's and 24's.....
Wondering out loud here:
I have the blue tube (102) in my 76mm. I'm wondering if a coupler between the MAF and a conical filter is different vs and conical filter bolted directly to the end of the MAF? If I swap out the stock air box I would use the rubber tube that goes between the MAF and the March Ram Air box. That's how it's designed to be used. I would run it back to back with the stock box to see if there is a gain or not.
If I use the March box and filter I'm going to cut out the side that faces the fender and seal it off from engine heat. Something like this: http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1296636-stock-airbox-300rwhp.html
Edit: picture of what I'm talking about as far as a rubber tube between the MAF and filter. It would look like this.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 16, 2014, 05:56:50 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 16, 2014, 05:56:50 PM
Just for fun an old quote from Lee who used to own C&L:
I had a long talk with Lee Bender on this issue when I was having problems with the car when I was running a sheilded 12" K&N cone. Here is one of the e-mails from him.
As long as the filter was shielded, you should not have had any problem. We have other customers who run conical filters with this kit, with no problem. We do have a calibration for 36/38 lb injectors. We do not advertise this because most naturally aspirated applications will not require that much fuel.
Your factory airbox with the panel filter flows 800-850 cfm. This is
enough air to support more than 700HP naturally aspirated. If you have any other questions, please call.
I had a long talk with Lee Bender on this issue when I was having problems with the car when I was running a sheilded 12" K&N cone. Here is one of the e-mails from him.
As long as the filter was shielded, you should not have had any problem. We have other customers who run conical filters with this kit, with no problem. We do have a calibration for 36/38 lb injectors. We do not advertise this because most naturally aspirated applications will not require that much fuel.
Your factory airbox with the panel filter flows 800-850 cfm. This is
enough air to support more than 700HP naturally aspirated. If you have any other questions, please call.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 16, 2014, 08:12:21 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 16, 2014, 08:12:21 PM
Quote
Wondering out loud here:
I have the blue tube (102) in my 76mm. I'm wondering if a coupler between the MAF and a conical filter is different vs and conical filter bolted directly to the end of the MAF? If I swap out the stock air box I would use the rubber tube that goes between the MAF and the March Ram Air box. That's how it's designed to be used. I would run it back to back with the stock box to see if there is a gain or not.
The coupler in front of the MAF in that pic appears identical to the one that came with the Ford Racing MAF conversion kit that I used to swap from speed density many moons ago. I've been running a cone with a 4" inner diameter. I had to use a reducer and some metal along with 2 clamps to get it to mount to my MAF meter. You can KINDA see it in this photo.....
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t31.0-8/1537997_621604521248903_287120877_o.jpg)
As you might be able to tell from the photo, the metal connecting the coupler to the cone is dryer vent tube. Haven't had an issue, but was never really keen on it.....I found a nice new cone filter with almost exact dimensions but with a 3.5" . Direct fit onto the MAF meter. The old one was about half an inch from the radiator support. There's about 4 more inches of space in front now which may be good because there's actually a nice opening there for air to make it's way around....
I wonder if the blue tube would be correct for The cone filter and March box with a larger hole in the fender or would the black (105) be a better fit...... My GUESS would be the black as it's technically mounted to the front of the MAF sensor.....
I may e-mail C&L to see what they say -- if anything. I'll call MAC as well. I have a feeling if I got a hold of both of them the answers will be different, judging by how MAC specs their units.
****EDIT**** As per the C&L website:
Quote
The Effects of Plumbing in Front of the MAF housing:
There are two configurations which places an inlet tube/pipe directly in front of the MAF housing. This is commonly used for either “blow through” turbocharger/supercharger applications or “cold air” intake arrangements on naturally aspirated vehicles. The most common mistake or issue that people make with this arrangement is that they place a sharp bend or turn in the inlet assembly directly in front of the MAF housing. As the air makes the turn in the plumbing in front of the MAF unit, the majority of the airflow rides along the outside bend inside the tube. This “bias” towards one side of the unit causes the sensor to not read the correct amount of airflow, as the majority of air that should be sampled by the sensor is forced to one side of the unit.
In an attempt to correct this issue, many people believe that you are supposed to “clock” or rotate the orientation of the MAF unit. Doing this only addresses the SYMPTOM of the problem and not the ISSUE. The correct way to keep this from effecting your MAF voltage signal is to ensure that there is a minimum of 6 to 8 inches of straight pipe/plumbing directly in front of the MAF housing, and the diameter of the pipe must be at least as big as the smallest section of the inside diameter of the MAF unit. This allows the airflow the ability to “straighten” before entering the front of the MAF unit, so that it evenly enters the face of the housing.
Changing the orientation (or “clocking”) the mass airflow housing will only have an effect on the signal if you are running an improperly plumbed air intake assembly that is effecting how the airflow enters the unit. When running either a conical filter mounted directly on the end of the MAF housing or an inlet tube arrangement that features a straight airflow path in front of the meter, the orientation of the MAF unit will have absolutely NO effect on the signal output. We have tested the calibrations of mass airflow assemblies on our flowbench with them mounted in various orientations, including on their side and even upside down, with absolutely no change in the calibration signal.
I wonder how long this has been on the C&L website. It seems to address every issue as to why people bash these meters with a resounding "You're doing it wrong, stupid" in reply to those who bash them..... FWIW -- I've never had an issue with mine.
The c&L website is back up. The calibration chart.....
Source: http://www.cnlperformance.com/Calibration-chart.php
I also read back through another thread:
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?37314-Question-for-those-still-running-a-stock-airbox-on-the-5-0&highlight=calibration
Quote from: thunderjet302;432231
C&L changed the calibration tube chart a year or two ago. See here: http://www.cnlperformance.com/Calibration-chart.php
The blue tube (102) is not even specified for 24lb injector and the 73mm MAF anymore. If your C&L 73mm MAF for 24lb injectors is as old as mine (bought in 2010) than you've got the blue tube (102) in the housing. I called C&L and they said the new tube specified (brown 095) results in a 3-5hp gain from leaning out the air/fuel ratio slightly over the blue 102 tube used only in the 76mm MAF with 24lb injectors now.
I pulled my 73 out of the car to measure it up to the 76. I was curious as to which metering tube my 73 had. I bought it new in the box back in the day and it's been on the car since about a weeks after I bought it.....
It IS NOT A BLUE (102) TUBE. It's clearly a different size. Looking at it there APPEARS to be a VERY faint hint of orange upon it, which would correspond with the revised setting. I bought it 7 or 8 years ago.... Perhaps they changed it way back when and never updated the website?
Regardless, I'll have both the 102 & 105 here. I'll run the 105 with the cone filter.
I took it upon myself to post the chart as an attachment as 95% of the searches reveal the old chart on just about every other website/picture search.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 09:52:21 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 09:52:21 AM
Oh good the website is back up. I went to the tech page and found this:
Many of the “Ram Air” kits that are being sold to early 5.0 Mustangs use an air filter arrangement that effects the MAF signal. In one particular case, the air filter that is placed in front of the MAF unit is spaced forward away from the unit by several inches and the filter neck has an inside diameter that is a full ½” smaller than the front of the MAF unit. This disrupts the flow of air into the front of the MAF housing (by “squeezing” the airflow before it enters the unit), and is commonly reported to cause issues. The best thing to do is ensure that you have a good supply of fresh air available to your engine, but do not run any type of inlet arrangement that can alter your mass airflow signal away from what it is supposed to be measuring.
So I won't be running the filter that came with the Ram Air box. It seems it will cause issues. If I'm going to run a conical I have to find one that fits in the March Ram Air box and clamps to the end of the meter. I'll have to run the black 105 tube in that case. So for now stock air box till I find a conical filter that fits the March air box and clamps to the MAF.
The tech page also noted the reason injectors bigger than 24lb only have one calibration tube is that they found above 24lb injectors that you need to run a conical filter. 24lb and below can get away with either the stock box or a conical filter.
Many of the “Ram Air” kits that are being sold to early 5.0 Mustangs use an air filter arrangement that effects the MAF signal. In one particular case, the air filter that is placed in front of the MAF unit is spaced forward away from the unit by several inches and the filter neck has an inside diameter that is a full ½” smaller than the front of the MAF unit. This disrupts the flow of air into the front of the MAF housing (by “squeezing” the airflow before it enters the unit), and is commonly reported to cause issues. The best thing to do is ensure that you have a good supply of fresh air available to your engine, but do not run any type of inlet arrangement that can alter your mass airflow signal away from what it is supposed to be measuring.
So I won't be running the filter that came with the Ram Air box. It seems it will cause issues. If I'm going to run a conical I have to find one that fits in the March Ram Air box and clamps to the end of the meter. I'll have to run the black 105 tube in that case. So for now stock air box till I find a conical filter that fits the March air box and clamps to the MAF.
The tech page also noted the reason injectors bigger than 24lb only have one calibration tube is that they found above 24lb injectors that you need to run a conical filter. 24lb and below can get away with either the stock box or a conical filter.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 17, 2014, 02:42:39 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 17, 2014, 02:42:39 PM
I think the one I just picked up may fit your bill. K&N part # RE-0920. Slipped right on. Didn't have to stretch it nor was it loose enough to fall off under it's own weight without a clamp. VERY good fitment.
I saw the tech page recommended a conical above 280 HP at the wheels. The box may well be a restriction for me considering I'm about 50 more than that. You're right there as well.
What are the measurements on the March filter
Quote
UPC: 024844009326
Air Filter Style: Conical
Length (in): 9.000 in.
Inlet Inside Diameter (in): 3.500 in.
Air Filter Top Measurement: 4.625 in. diameter
Air Filter Bottom Measurement: 6.000 in. diameter
Filter Material: Cotton gauze
Filter Color: Red
I saw the tech page recommended a conical above 280 HP at the wheels. The box may well be a restriction for me considering I'm about 50 more than that. You're right there as well.
What are the measurements on the March filter
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;436036
I think the one I just picked up may fit your bill. K&N part # RE-0920. Slipped right on. Didn't have to stretch it nor was it loose enough to fall off under it's own weight without a clamp. VERY good fitment.
I saw the tech page recommended a conical above 280 HP at the wheels. The box may well be a restriction for me considering I'm about 50 more than that. You're right there as well.
What are the measurements on the March filter
I'll have to measure the March filter when I get home. If that one is the same dimensionally it would work with the box. Then all I would need is the black 105 tube. Mustangs Unlimited has the MAC CT5 tube which is the same as the C&L 105 tube for $31.95: http://www.mustangsunlimited.com/itemdy01.asp?T1=CT5A+01&Category=Air%2FFuel&subCategory=Mass+Air+Meters&SubSubCategory=Sampling+Tubes&CatKey=74-01 Unless you know somewhere to get it cheaper?
Edit: cheaper to buy direct from MAC: http://shop.macperformance.com/MAC-Ford-Mustang-Calibration-Tube-for-MAC-Mass-Air-Meters-Calibration-Tubes.htm
As far as wheel horsepower I have no idea what I'm making. It's never been on a dyno. The engine will shove 3700lbs of Thunderbird through the quarter around 100mph with a 14 second et cutting a 2.2 60' on street tires. There is more in it with drag radials. I figure about 270hp or so at the wheels. Maybe the stock box is a restriction maybe not. I can't say for sure.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 17, 2014, 07:05:53 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 17, 2014, 07:05:53 PM
Mac's shipping is more. They hammered me on that. Get it from M.U.
Wish I had seen it on there. I find their website troublesome to navigate.
Wish I had seen it on there. I find their website troublesome to navigate.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 07:54:25 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 07:54:25 PM
That K&N filter will work in the March box. The March filter 6 inches at the base, 4.75 inches at the top, and 9 inches long. I may have to pick it up. I'll see if my local speed guy can get me a deal on it.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 09:58:39 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 09:58:39 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;436045
Mac's shipping is more. They hammered me on that. Get it from M.U.
Wish I had seen it on there. I find their website troublesome to navigate.
To add insult to injury Mustangs unlimited also sells the K&N filter you bought for $5 less than Summit.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 17, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
Also since you have the K&N conical and the sample tube I'm going to let you try those two parts first and let me know how they work. If it goes well I'll buy them for myself :).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 18, 2014, 10:19:23 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 18, 2014, 10:19:23 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;436055
To add insult to injury Mustangs unlimited also sells the K&N filter you bought for $5 less than Summit.
That I got for even less. SK Speed had it for $38.
Quote
Also since you have the K&N conical and the sample tube I'm going to let you try those two parts first and let me know how they work. If it goes well I'll buy them for myself
Still waiting on the tube......
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 19, 2014, 12:44:00 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 19, 2014, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;436086
That I got for even less. SK Speed had it for $38.
Still waiting on the tube......
Hmm I'll have to see if my local speed shop has it cheaper than Summit.
When you get the tube and try it with the filter let me know how it works.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 19, 2014, 01:24:40 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 19, 2014, 01:24:40 PM
Right now I'm still running the 73 mm MAF, the tube that came with it, and that new filter. Drove her for a long run yesterday. I did take note of the fact that my transmission DOES NOT get hot. Warm yes, not hot. I can put the car in park after a drive, open the hood, and pull the tans. dip stick out and grip it right where the fluid is without fear of burning myself at all. I'm actually a little concerned about what's gonna happen when the cold weather comes. Time to hook up a gauge to it....
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 19, 2014, 02:50:45 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 19, 2014, 02:50:45 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;436101
Right now I'm still running the 73 mm MAF, the tube that came with it, and that new filter. Drove her for a long run yesterday. I did take note of the fact that my transmission DOES NOT get hot. Warm yes, not hot. I can put the car in park after a drive, open the hood, and pull the tans. dip stick out and grip it right where the fluid is without fear of burning myself at all. I'm actually a little concerned about what's gonna happen when the cold weather comes. Time to hook up a gauge to it....
I know you just swapped the radiator. Did you plumb the external trans cooler inline with the radiator or did you just run the transmission lines to the external trans cooler? The guy who built my transmission warned me to run the transmission cooler lines first to the transmission cooler in the radiator, then to the external cooler, and back to the transmission. He said if I ran the transmission lines straight to the external cooler bypassing the radiator the transmission would run far too cool and possibly not even reach operating temperature under most cirspoogestances.
Back on topic. If the calibration tube (black, CT5/105) works for you I'm going to run the same setup. I'm going to do back to back track testing with that setup and then the stock air box and the tube for that setup (blue 102). I want to see if there is a measurable difference between the conical and the stock air box and not just a seat of the pants difference.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 19, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 19, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
I run my trans lines to the radiator cooler first then to the external cooler. The stock rad coolers are ridiculously small on these cars though.
I wish I had access to a flow bench.
I wish I had access to a flow bench.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 20, 2014, 08:54:37 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 20, 2014, 08:54:37 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;436117
I run my trans lines to the radiator cooler first then to the external cooler. The stock rad coolers are ridiculously small on these cars though.
As do I on my car. The transmission gets warm but not scalding hot.
I'm still curious what difference a conical filter would make vs a K&N in the stock air box. The difference is about 100cfm in favor of the conical. How much power lost or gained that equates to I don't know.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 20, 2014, 11:53:02 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 20, 2014, 11:53:02 PM
I think the difference is quite a bit more than that. Using the K&N formulas, a drop in as opposed to the cone I run the theoretical max flow is half. The conical has a 145 square inch area as opposed to 85. I do not know how pleat depth or amount of pleats would affect flow. One can surmise that there would be a point pf diminishing returns WRT number and depth of pleats.....
Interesting article on heating and A/C duct filtration that touches on the subject....
http://www.lacool.ws/air%20filter%20tutorial.htm
Interesting article on heating and A/C duct filtration that touches on the subject....
http://www.lacool.ws/air%20filter%20tutorial.htm
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
I'm building an intake using the march racing box as well. I used K&N filter RE-0870, which has a 4" inlet to fit my 90mm MAF. It fits perfectly, and has the same dimensions as the RE-920 other than the coupler. So either filter will fit the box perfectly.
Chris
Chris
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 01:36:59 PM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 01:36:59 PM
Also, the stock box is known to support over 500hp, so I wouldn't worry about the flow upgrade so much. I'm using the march box since there was no good way to get the 90mm Lightning MAF hooked to the factory airbox without a lot of fiberglass work. Even with my supercharger install, I wouldn't be worried about the filter area.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 21, 2014, 07:34:55 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 21, 2014, 07:34:55 PM
Which 90 mm MAF sensor are you gonna run?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 07:55:04 PM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 07:55:04 PM
I'm going with a Ford Lightning 90mm MAF, 42lb green tops, and a tune via moates quarterhorse. Hoping for 8-10psi out of a 2.1L kenne bell.
Chris
Chris
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 21, 2014, 08:49:35 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 21, 2014, 08:49:35 PM
Quote from: a77cj7;436181
Also, the stock box is known to support over 500hp, so I wouldn't worry about the flow upgrade so much. I'm using the march box since there was no good way to get the 90mm Lightning MAF hooked to the factory airbox without a lot of fiberglass work. Even with my supercharger install, I wouldn't be worried about the filter area.
Do you know where that information came from? Someone said that it should be swapped out at the 350hp level. I don't know if that's rear wheel or flywheel though.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 09:51:59 PM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 21, 2014, 09:51:59 PM
I've seen builds on corral.net that were still running stock box at those power levels, dyno confirmed. Its a pretty beaten topic over there, I'll see if I can come up with a thread for ya. Remember, most of the fender-well CAI's have a filter with very little surface area gain over the panel. The March box allows for a much larger filter.
Chris
Chris
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2014, 11:42:23 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2014, 11:42:23 PM
I've seen guys run 10's on e7 heads... doesn't mean they aren't a restriction...
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 22, 2014, 06:53:50 AM
Post by: V8Demon on July 22, 2014, 06:53:50 AM
Quote from: a77cj7;436200
I've seen builds on corral.net that were still running stock box at those power levels, dyno confirmed. Its a pretty beaten topic over there, I'll see if I can come up with a thread for ya. Remember, most of the fender-well CAI's have a filter with very little surface area gain over the panel. The March box allows for a much larger filter.
Chris
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 09:23:52 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 09:23:52 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;436210
Exactly why I'm rocking the larger filter on the end of the MAF. Yesterday was warm and the air was thin. Not a good combo. I'm gonna swap on the stock box and the 76 withe the blue 102 tube later today and see what happens. Depending on that I may order the March box. I need a shield for the cone so.....
I'm curious to see if there is a difference.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 10:49:35 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 10:49:35 AM
Just some food for thought:
The hole in the fender behind the airbox measures 7"x3.5". The hole in the airbox measures 8.5"x3.5". The hole in the airbox outlet is 3.5". The diameter of the 76mm MAF and tube is approximately 3" (2.99 something). If the hole in the fender was a circle is would be approximately 4.95" in diameter (solve the are of the ellipse, work the area of a circle formula backwards to find the circle diameter) which is 125.73mm. Even the stock hole in the fender isn't a restriction. The only place there can be a restriction is the filter in the box.
Edit: My engine is a 306 that makes power to 5500rpm so it needs 81 square inches of air at that speed. The K&N panel in the stock box flows 85 square inches of air. My car is right on the cusp. If you're spinning a 306 faster than 5800rpm the K&N panel in the stock air box becomes a restriction.
So to summarize:
In V8Demon's case he should run a proper sized conical filter. A K&N panel in the stock airbox would probably rob him of some horsepower.
In my case it's a toss up. Is the stock airbox with the K&N panel a restriction? Probably not. Could my setup gain some power with a proper sized conical? Maybe.
Does your 302/306 with GT40/GT40P heads/GT40 intake/mild cam or HO cam need a big conical filter? If it's naturally aspirated no. It doesn't even need a BBK style cold air intake. Removing the air silencer and slapping a K&N filter in the stock airbox gets you the same power.
Stock 5.0 SO or 5.0 HO: stock stuff is fine.
The hole in the fender behind the airbox measures 7"x3.5". The hole in the airbox measures 8.5"x3.5". The hole in the airbox outlet is 3.5". The diameter of the 76mm MAF and tube is approximately 3" (2.99 something). If the hole in the fender was a circle is would be approximately 4.95" in diameter (solve the are of the ellipse, work the area of a circle formula backwards to find the circle diameter) which is 125.73mm. Even the stock hole in the fender isn't a restriction. The only place there can be a restriction is the filter in the box.
Edit: My engine is a 306 that makes power to 5500rpm so it needs 81 square inches of air at that speed. The K&N panel in the stock box flows 85 square inches of air. My car is right on the cusp. If you're spinning a 306 faster than 5800rpm the K&N panel in the stock air box becomes a restriction.
So to summarize:
In V8Demon's case he should run a proper sized conical filter. A K&N panel in the stock airbox would probably rob him of some horsepower.
In my case it's a toss up. Is the stock airbox with the K&N panel a restriction? Probably not. Could my setup gain some power with a proper sized conical? Maybe.
Does your 302/306 with GT40/GT40P heads/GT40 intake/mild cam or HO cam need a big conical filter? If it's naturally aspirated no. It doesn't even need a BBK style cold air intake. Removing the air silencer and slapping a K&N filter in the stock airbox gets you the same power.
Stock 5.0 SO or 5.0 HO: stock stuff is fine.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 22, 2014, 01:50:33 PM
Post by: V8Demon on July 22, 2014, 01:50:33 PM
I still would like to see some proven flow numbers for the stock box..... If I go with a March box, rest assured that the fenderwell and box hole to it will be enlarged.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 02:08:39 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 02:08:39 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;436222
I still would like to see some proven flow numbers for the stock box..... If I go with a March box, rest assured that the fenderwell and box hole to it will be enlarged.
Well I just ordered the CT5 sample tube and the K&N filter from Mustangs Unlimited. Hopefully they get here by the weekend. When they get here I'm going to swap the parts on with a modified March box and see if I notice a difference.
I'm also going to run both the stock airbox with a panel K&N and the March box with the conical K&N and see if there is a difference. I will use the correct sample tubes and disconnect the battery before each run. I want to see if there is a quantifiable difference in performance.
Looking at the March box and the radiator support I'm pretty sure there is room to cut out the circle on the front of the March box and use a short section of 4-5" ducting to connect it to the area in front of the radiator. Not only would it be in taking air from the fender well but also the area in front of the radiator/behind the passenger headlamp.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 22, 2014, 03:04:26 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 22, 2014, 03:04:26 PM
With a 306 motor I don't think you are going to notice the difference between the stock air box with a K&N and any other configuration unless you are going to come up past 7,000 rpm. I could be wrong but I just cannot see any performance gain with the smaller cubic inch motors as the flat panel / stock box will support that. I will definitely be curious to see what you find out. I have a CAI kit as my car was a four cylinder car so I did not have the stock box to work with.
Until someone on the Corral or elsewhere flows the stock box with an element in it on a flow bench I don't want to hear anything about it. It's not a function of the stock box its the area of the filter element in question. I can pull the filter out of the stock box and support 500 hp so were they really running an element???
Darren
Until someone on the Corral or elsewhere flows the stock box with an element in it on a flow bench I don't want to hear anything about it. It's not a function of the stock box its the area of the filter element in question. I can pull the filter out of the stock box and support 500 hp so were they really running an element???
Darren
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 05:21:54 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 05:21:54 PM
Found this little tidbit: http://books.google.com/books?id=UfQyYA_P-nQC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=march+ram+air+pressurized&source=bl&ots=xoXqgRzUhf&sig=_aThySGKCEbQNqEGhFAqv4HBgiU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7dLOU6mALIWyyATL-4KQBg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=march%20ram%20air%20pressurized&f=false
March ram air box, filter, and hose without the scoop picked up 11hp over the stock box on a dyno. On a stock 5.0 HO.
I have the box, scoop, hose, and filter. I bought it years ago when my Thunderbird was stock. 17 year old me thought it was a good idea:hick:. It went back to the stock airbox because it used to suck up a bunch of junk. The Filter in the kit is slightly narrower than the MAF meter inlet so you can't bolt it directly to the MAF. The filter I ordered is the same dimensionally as the March filter but has a 3.5" opening in the rear. I'm going to bolt the filter to the end of the MAF and use the March box to shield the filter from under hood heat. I haven't decided if I'm going to run the hose or not but if I do it sure won't be with that scoop. I might try to tuck it up into the bumper somehow.
As for the K&N panel in the Thunderbird now it will end up in the Mark VII.
March ram air box, filter, and hose without the scoop picked up 11hp over the stock box on a dyno. On a stock 5.0 HO.
I have the box, scoop, hose, and filter. I bought it years ago when my Thunderbird was stock. 17 year old me thought it was a good idea:hick:. It went back to the stock airbox because it used to suck up a bunch of junk. The Filter in the kit is slightly narrower than the MAF meter inlet so you can't bolt it directly to the MAF. The filter I ordered is the same dimensionally as the March filter but has a 3.5" opening in the rear. I'm going to bolt the filter to the end of the MAF and use the March box to shield the filter from under hood heat. I haven't decided if I'm going to run the hose or not but if I do it sure won't be with that scoop. I might try to tuck it up into the bumper somehow.
As for the K&N panel in the Thunderbird now it will end up in the Mark VII.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;436226
Until someone on the Corral or elsewhere flows the stock box with an element in it on a flow bench I don't want to hear anything about it. It's not a function of the stock box its the area of the filter element in question. I can pull the filter out of the stock box and support 500 hp so were they really running an element???
Darren
That's the issue. I know the holes in the box are big enough but is the filter able to flow the air? I'm sure as hell going to find out. I'm betting it flows plenty for a E7 or GT40 headed motor. Now aftermarket aluminum heads? I'm not so sure. I switched from GT40Ps to Edelbrock Performers (which flow about 40-50cfm more) and the car went 5-6mph faster in the quarter. I may be exceeding the ability of a stock panel filter to supply air. Maybe not. I'm going to find out though ;)
This thread also reminds me that my car's intake manifold is a restriction. The GT40 lower flows about 30cfm less than the heads I have. I either have to get it ported or swap to another intake. That's next springs project.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 22, 2014, 06:59:59 PM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 22, 2014, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;436224
Well I just ordered the CT5 sample tube and the K&N filter from Mustangs Unlimited. Hopefully they get here by the weekend. When they get here I'm going to swap the parts on with a modified March box and see if I notice a difference.
I'm also going to run both the stock airbox with a panel K&N and the March box with the conical K&N and see if there is a difference. I will use the correct sample tubes and disconnect the battery before each run. I want to see if there is a quantifiable difference in performance.
Looking at the March box and the radiator support I'm pretty sure there is room to cut out the circle on the front of the March box and use a short section of 4-5" ducting to connect it to the area in front of the radiator. Not only would it be in taking air from the fender well but also the area in front of the radiator/behind the passenger headlamp.
Uhh, circle on the front of the box is what holds the front of the air filter. Also, considering k&n filters have a solid end cap, there would be no air flow possible, so i'd strongly recommend against that idea. Simply matching the box to the fender opening will result in more flow area than my 90mm maf by far, so i don't see why any more would be necessary.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 10:49:22 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 22, 2014, 10:49:22 PM
Quote from: a77cj7;436240
Uhh, circle on the front of the box is what holds the front of the air filter. Also, considering k&n filters have a solid end cap, there would be no air flow possible, so i'd strongly recommend against that idea. Simply matching the box to the fender opening will result in more flow area than my 90mm maf by far, so i don't see why any more would be necessary.
I looked at the March box tonight and yeah cutting the front out serves no purpose. I'm not going to do it.
I measured the snorkel opening. The diameter of the opening is 90mm, or 3.5 inches. That's bigger than the MAF and tubing, which is 76mm (about 3 inches).
So I've got two options with the March box:
1. Run the box with the snorkel and attach the flex tube to it. I would duct the flex tube behind the bumper to pull in air. It shouldn't be a restriction as the flex tubing is 5 inches in diameter. The engine would have to draw the air from further away though.
2. Cut the snorkel off and enlarge the opening in the box to match the fender. That would be the equivalent of almost a 5 inch diameter pipe. It would be pulling air from the fender well just like the stock air box.
I'm leaning towards option 2. I can't imagine pulling air from behind the bumper is going to make any more power than pulling it from the fender well. Plus I would think bigger hole that's closer to the filter might make more power than a long tube far away from the filter. Unless I can angle the flex tube to an area with an air hole in the lower bumper. Then I might get ram air! Probably not though ;). I'm still thinking I'm better off with option number 2. Thoughts?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on July 23, 2014, 12:00:03 AM
Post by: V8Demon on July 23, 2014, 12:00:03 AM
Option 2. I'm a bit biased though as it would appear we're on the same wavelength.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 23, 2014, 12:26:34 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 23, 2014, 12:26:34 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;436260
Option 2. I'm a bit biased though as it would appear we're on the same wavelength.
I'm thinking that's the best option. Although hacking the out of the ram air scoop to make it fit behind the air on the bumper sounds fun. Because RAM AIR! Well actually cold air. I doubt the system could be pressurized by incoming air. Besides that would really screw with the MAF. The box would have to be sealed, which isn't possible unless the end of the filter was some how sealed to the back of the box.
I'm still intrigued by the fact that the March system picked up 11hp on the dyno on a stock 5.0 with an un modified box and the ductwork attached to the box.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 23, 2014, 11:41:53 AM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 23, 2014, 11:41:53 AM
The main problem with the ram air system is it rams all sorts of road debris in along with the air. I've seen several reviews complaining about birds sucked into the air box, and pretty much everyone who has run it complains about how quickly the filter gets dirty. So in the interest of not having to empty the box of gravel weekly, I'd go with option 2. (which is exactly what i'm doing)
If you're only running a 76mm maf, there is probably no reason to match the box to the fender, you can just run it as is. I don't remember what i came up with for an intake area on the box, but it was larger than 3".
If you're only running a 76mm maf, there is probably no reason to match the box to the fender, you can just run it as is. I don't remember what i came up with for an intake area on the box, but it was larger than 3".
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 23, 2014, 03:44:20 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 23, 2014, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: a77cj7;436267
The main problem with the ram air system is it rams all sorts of road debris in along with the air. I've seen several reviews complaining about birds sucked into the air box, and pretty much everyone who has run it complains about how quickly the filter gets dirty. So in the interest of not having to empty the box of gravel weekly, I'd go with option 2. (which is exactly what i'm doing)
If you're only running a 76mm maf, there is probably no reason to match the box to the fender, you can just run it as is. I don't remember what i came up with for an intake area on the box, but it was larger than 3".
I ended up trying to fit the scoop to the car this morning. It doesn't fit well around the inner fender. It fits but the hose is all kinds of kinked up, likely disrupting airflow. I do remember when I ran it before that it sucked up a bunch of off the road, a reason that I went back to the stock airbox.
I measured the hole and it was bigger than 76mm. I did end up cutting the snorkel off and smoothing out the opening to match the fender hole. It will pull in air from a hole that is as big as the fender opening, which is more than enough. I'll put some thin weather striping around the opening on the March box so it's sealed off from under hood air and can only draw air from the fender well, just like the stock box.
The hole in the stock airbox or fender isn't a restriction, it's the filter. The question is how much. I'm going to find out ;).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: a77cj7 on July 24, 2014, 01:46:23 AM
Post by: a77cj7 on July 24, 2014, 01:46:23 AM
If you're gonna test em back to back, please post the results. I'm betting very little gain on your combo, but would like to see some data on the march box.
Chris
Chris
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 24, 2014, 11:46:11 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 24, 2014, 11:46:11 AM
Quote from: a77cj7;436304
If you're gonna test em back to back, please post the results. I'm betting very little gain on your combo, but would like to see some data on the march box.
Chris
I always test mods at the track. That way I can verifiably see if they make a difference. The "butt dyno" is not always accurate. For instance I swapped from a 65mm throttle body to a 70mm throttle body. Realistically one would expect to see zero difference and I didn't really feel any. The car picked up 1.5mph and .1 second. I went on different days but I used the Drag Times DA calculator to average out the times. Averaging out for weather conditions the car still picked up .1 second and 1.5mph. So in my car's case the 70mm throttle body was worth about 10hp. I also did a back to back test with the C&L intake tube vs the stock rubber one. Swapping back and forth several times on the same day the runs with the C&L tube were consistently .05 second and .05mph faster, meaning the tube was worth 3-5hp.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 24, 2014, 10:25:22 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 24, 2014, 10:25:22 PM
Well I finished modifying the March ram air box. I removed the snorkel, enlarged the hole for air intake to match the fender, slotted the mounting holes so I could line the box up with the fender hole, and put some weather strip around the opening so air can only be pulled from the fender well. The box as molded sat further back in with the original holes and didn't fully cover the fender opening. This was done so the snorkel would clear the fender opening with the hose attached. My Dremel got a workout.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/DSCN3584_zps1e7849ca.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/DSCN3584_zps1e7849ca.jpg.html)
Now I just need the correct sample tube and the K&N filter to show up and I'll swap this on. I think it should pull in a decent amount of air ;).
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/DSCN3584_zps1e7849ca.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/DSCN3584_zps1e7849ca.jpg.html)
Now I just need the correct sample tube and the K&N filter to show up and I'll swap this on. I think it should pull in a decent amount of air ;).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 09, 2014, 01:36:56 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 09, 2014, 01:36:56 PM
I got the K&N Conical filter and the correct MAf calibration installed yesterday. I didn't take it to the track (hopefully in the next few weeks) so I just drove the car around on the street. I don't know if it added any power however it takes noticeably less throttle application for the same amount of acceleration. The engine seems to rev quicker than it did with the stock airbox and K&N panel filter. Passing power on the highway has been improved as the car responds faster. It should be noted that all of this is courtesy of my calibrated butt dyno ;). I will get track results and post them. I took some pictures of the setup (sorry cell phone pictures at night). March Ram Air box with snorkel removed and the hole in the box enlarged to the fender opening, K&N RE-0920 conical filter, 76mm C&L MAF, 4"long by 3.5" ID rubber coupler, C&L true flow pipe (76mm ID).
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210011_resized_zpse9dc5d5a.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210011_resized_zpse9dc5d5a.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210237_resized_zpse783385b.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210237_resized_zpse783385b.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210011_resized_zpse9dc5d5a.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210011_resized_zpse9dc5d5a.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210237_resized_zpse783385b.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20140805_210237_resized_zpse783385b.jpg.html)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on August 20, 2014, 10:46:50 AM
Post by: V8Demon on August 20, 2014, 10:46:50 AM
Pretty much what I did to my box. I'm waiting to install. Been looking for some type of extension for the front end. of the MAF to make my filter come forward approximately another 3/4". I want my MAF mounted on the shock tower just like it is right now. I may end up just buying a small piece of 3.5" I.D steel tubing then cutting it to the length I need and cleaning it up. The temps dropped here already. Been in the mid 50's at night so heat soak has really been non-existent at this point between that and the new rad. Add to this how busy I was at work in early August (10 days in a row stuck late......FUN) and I just didn't have time. Oh yeah, I'm back on steady midnights now too (FINALLY!!!). So I'll have some free time to mess with it next week. This week I'm closing my pool.
Seriously, it's August and I'm closing the pool. NEVER thought I'd do that. I got a feeling it's gonna be ANOTHER long and py winter......
Seriously, it's August and I'm closing the pool. NEVER thought I'd do that. I got a feeling it's gonna be ANOTHER long and py winter......
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 20, 2014, 05:42:26 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 20, 2014, 05:42:26 PM
The way I have mine setup it doesn't need a bracket. The thing is solid and doesn't move around at all.
I'm hoping to go to the track Friday night. The weather has been getting warmer here (go figure) so it will probably be around 80* or so Friday. I'll have to use the dragtimes DA calculator to get some accurate comparison results. I would just be happy if it runs what it did in 70* weather in 80*+ weather. The nice thing about this setup is that just like the stock airbox there are no heat soak issues.
I'm hoping to go to the track Friday night. The weather has been getting warmer here (go figure) so it will probably be around 80* or so Friday. I'll have to use the dragtimes DA calculator to get some accurate comparison results. I would just be happy if it runs what it did in 70* weather in 80*+ weather. The nice thing about this setup is that just like the stock airbox there are no heat soak issues.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 21, 2014, 06:21:40 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 21, 2014, 06:21:40 PM
I have my doubts about going to the track tomorrow. 30% chance of thunderstorms. That's not the big issue. The issue is the temperature. It's supposed to be about 90* with 75% humidity at 4pm when the track opens. If it's that hot out going would be a waste of time. That's around a 3000ft DA. Blah.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on August 26, 2014, 07:29:12 PM
Post by: V8Demon on August 26, 2014, 07:29:12 PM
The longest winter followed by the weirdest summer that at least by me, had no long heat waves like years past.... I love the heat too.
STILL haven't touched the car to change over. It's been in the 50's here at night now. PERFECT running weather. Cougar's been running like an animal. Atco's been doing night rentals...... I should set one up.....
STILL haven't touched the car to change over. It's been in the 50's here at night now. PERFECT running weather. Cougar's been running like an animal. Atco's been doing night rentals...... I should set one up.....
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 27, 2014, 08:42:03 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 27, 2014, 08:42:03 PM
Why do you have the cool weather now and it's now hot here? Before I did the swap it was nice and cool here. Now that I got the new filter and airbox it gets warm. Too warm to go to the track and get a good run. Stupid weather. I'm still holding out hope that next Friday (September 5th) is nice. If not I'll have to go to the far track in October (that one is an hour and a half away).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on August 29, 2014, 09:48:47 AM
Post by: V8Demon on August 29, 2014, 09:48:47 AM
Far? Hell an hour and a half is the closest track in perfect zero traffic conditions (which NEVER happens).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 29, 2014, 03:01:24 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on August 29, 2014, 03:01:24 PM
I've got one track that is 45 minutes south of me and the other is a hour and a half drive north of me. Obviously I have a near and far track. I would rather go to the close track as, well, it's closer and newer (hence nicer).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 01, 2014, 02:50:26 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 01, 2014, 02:50:26 PM
I was able to run at the track last Friday. Here's the results:
This year(K&N conical filter in March Ram Air Box)
Temp: 76*
Pressure: 30.20
Humidity:43%
60': 2.25
E.T.: 14.442
MPH: 96.02
Corrected for DA: 14.153 @ 98.022
Best run last year(K&N panel filter in stock air box):
Temp: 65*
Pressure: 29.84
Humidity: 60%
60': 2.108
E.T.: 14.129
MPH 98.01
Corrected for DA: 13.96 @ 99.4
I forgot the stock air box and sample tube to make back to back runs to correct for weather conditions. Duh:hick:. DA calculator is the best I could do. Some notes on the results though:
Last year's best run was made with 18* initial timing. This years was made with 16*. I usually run 18* at the track (usually worth 1-2mph on my setup) and 16* on the street to reduce the chance of detonation on a hot day with the A/C on. In addition to forgetting the stock air box and sample tube I also forgot my timing light. Great day on my part :hick:.
The track was slick as heck this year. 2.25 was the best 60' I could cut that night. I can usually cut a 2.1 spinning of the line. Last week the car was not only spinning off the line but also barking the 1-2 upshift. The .15 increase in 60' probably accounts for ~.2-.3 in the quarter and 1-2mph or so.
So realistically the two setups are about even. If I get the chance over the next couple of weeks I'm going to try driving to a different track (in better weather conditions) with all the stuff needed to make back to back runs. Considering that the conical filter setup was running pretty much the same as the stock air box with less timing there might be a slight advantage to the conical setup. Realistically though I need drag radials. With a decent 60' (1.8-1.9) I've got a mid to high 13 second car. Not bad for 3700lbs and 306ci ;).
This year(K&N conical filter in March Ram Air Box)
Temp: 76*
Pressure: 30.20
Humidity:43%
60': 2.25
E.T.: 14.442
MPH: 96.02
Corrected for DA: 14.153 @ 98.022
Best run last year(K&N panel filter in stock air box):
Temp: 65*
Pressure: 29.84
Humidity: 60%
60': 2.108
E.T.: 14.129
MPH 98.01
Corrected for DA: 13.96 @ 99.4
I forgot the stock air box and sample tube to make back to back runs to correct for weather conditions. Duh:hick:. DA calculator is the best I could do. Some notes on the results though:
Last year's best run was made with 18* initial timing. This years was made with 16*. I usually run 18* at the track (usually worth 1-2mph on my setup) and 16* on the street to reduce the chance of detonation on a hot day with the A/C on. In addition to forgetting the stock air box and sample tube I also forgot my timing light. Great day on my part :hick:.
The track was slick as heck this year. 2.25 was the best 60' I could cut that night. I can usually cut a 2.1 spinning of the line. Last week the car was not only spinning off the line but also barking the 1-2 upshift. The .15 increase in 60' probably accounts for ~.2-.3 in the quarter and 1-2mph or so.
So realistically the two setups are about even. If I get the chance over the next couple of weeks I'm going to try driving to a different track (in better weather conditions) with all the stuff needed to make back to back runs. Considering that the conical filter setup was running pretty much the same as the stock air box with less timing there might be a slight advantage to the conical setup. Realistically though I need drag radials. With a decent 60' (1.8-1.9) I've got a mid to high 13 second car. Not bad for 3700lbs and 306ci ;).
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 01, 2014, 11:36:56 PM
Post by: V8Demon on October 01, 2014, 11:36:56 PM
You've got too many variables with a lot of time in between to compare accurately. How are you launching? My car prefers the converter loaded up as opposed to a quick flash. The Mustang is the exact opposite.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 02, 2014, 07:53:48 AM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 02, 2014, 07:53:48 AM
Are we seriously still debating air boxes after 3 pages...? :hick:
I should read through it all to make sure I see all of the data....but a friend of mine was a real dope not long ago and pissed me off. He has a 2V new edge Mustang with a Vortech V-1. His cone filter is at the BOTTOM corner inside the bumper. What did the jackass do? Drove in the rain, huge-ass puddle, stall. FLOORED THE PEDAL and tried to crank it. Now he has to rip everything down. Broke something...guessing a rod.
Now....*IF* you race professionally or are super-detail oriented about your time and every tenth or hundredth counts, okay, attack every last detail. But it seems so many people miss the economics of it, and fuss over something like this (my friend's not alone...all of the Honda people put their turbos IN the face of the bumper, no filter, nothing!!!) and forget that they're driving through the asphalt jungle, replete with dead animals, potential water, leaves...debris of all kinds.
You won't feel it in the butt dyno.... :P
I should read through it all to make sure I see all of the data....but a friend of mine was a real dope not long ago and pissed me off. He has a 2V new edge Mustang with a Vortech V-1. His cone filter is at the BOTTOM corner inside the bumper. What did the jackass do? Drove in the rain, huge-ass puddle, stall. FLOORED THE PEDAL and tried to crank it. Now he has to rip everything down. Broke something...guessing a rod.
Now....*IF* you race professionally or are super-detail oriented about your time and every tenth or hundredth counts, okay, attack every last detail. But it seems so many people miss the economics of it, and fuss over something like this (my friend's not alone...all of the Honda people put their turbos IN the face of the bumper, no filter, nothing!!!) and forget that they're driving through the asphalt jungle, replete with dead animals, potential water, leaves...debris of all kinds.
You won't feel it in the butt dyno.... :P
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 02, 2014, 10:32:56 AM
Post by: V8Demon on October 02, 2014, 10:32:56 AM
My interest was twofold.
1. Actually having enough airflow for my combo.
2. Getting/keeping intake temps down.
If you read through, you'll see that a stock air filter aint gonna cut it for me flow wise....
1. Actually having enough airflow for my combo.
2. Getting/keeping intake temps down.
If you read through, you'll see that a stock air filter aint gonna cut it for me flow wise....
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 02, 2014, 12:24:26 PM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 02, 2014, 12:24:26 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438566
My interest was twofold.
1. Actually having enough airflow for my combo.
2. Getting/keeping intake temps down.
If you read through, you'll see that a stock air filter aint gonna cut it for me flow wise....
No kidding. Well...I mean well over 1HP / CI is significant power density...and there's certainly plenty of airflow to make that happen, with your custom cam (as has surely already been addressed), the revs may get high enough to need less restriction.
Bottlenecks here, bottlenecks there...they all rear their head at some point.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 02, 2014, 06:38:53 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 02, 2014, 06:38:53 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438558
You've got too many variables with a lot of time in between to compare accurately. How are you launching? My car prefers the converter loaded up as opposed to a quick flash. The Mustang is the exact opposite.
Launching from idle I get wheel spin. Launching off the converter I get hellacious wheel spin. For example back to back runs from last year:
First run leaving from idle:
60': 2.17
E.T. 14.33
MPH: 97.03
Second run leaving just below stall speed(2800rpm stall):
60': 2.67
E.T. 15.74
MPH: 95.52
I my car's case traction has a lot to do with mph. The better 60' the car cuts not only the better the E.T. but the mph goes up as well. The car is in bad need of drag radials. I want to swap intakes (right now the GT40 lower is stock so at 205cfm of flow it's flowing 40cfm less than the heads) but I need to get the 8.8 in the garage built first. This way I can run drag radials and at least get consistent 60' times.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 02, 2014, 06:41:57 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 02, 2014, 06:41:57 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;438569
No kidding. Well...I mean well over 1HP / CI is significant power density...and there's certainly plenty of airflow to make that happen, with your custom cam (as has surely already been addressed), the revs may get high enough to need less restriction.
Bottlenecks here, bottlenecks there...they all rear their head at some point.
Plus some of us are never satisfied and just want to hot rod for the hell of it ;)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 02, 2014, 10:11:51 PM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 02, 2014, 10:11:51 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438575
Plus some of us are never satisfied and just want to hot rod for the hell of it ;)
I knew several people that spent money on car audio in or shortly after high school. Especially subwoofers, of course. I never had this and sort of always wanted it.
The black cat came with a somewhat built-up audio system. The P.O. wanted to keep the bass tube in the trunk. So eventually I found some deals and now have thumping bass when I need it, and powerful mid- and high-range from the component speakers. Half the time I drive the cougar JUST for the stereo system :rollin:
How fickle of a person I am.......the speed itch will return, eventually it will feel slow I'm sure!
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 03, 2014, 06:53:45 AM
Post by: V8Demon on October 03, 2014, 06:53:45 AM
Quote from: ZondaC12;438585
the speed itch will return, eventually it will feel slow I'm sure!
Get in something that's relatively slower for a while and drive it on the regular. Taking the toy out after that will give you an appreciation for it and the want for even more.
FWIW -- I've found a Mustang set up almost identical to mine save for an aftermarket converter. Same trap speeds and MUCH better 60 foots on what should be less aggressive rubber for the track. He had a LOW 1.6 60 ( I'm in the high 1.7's) and 11.7's all day long. I'm ordering my converter this week. 4000 RPM stall here I come.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 03, 2014, 09:13:43 AM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 03, 2014, 09:13:43 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;438598
Get in something that's relatively slower for a while and drive it on the regular. Taking the toy out after that will give you an appreciation for it and the want for even more.
FWIW -- I've found a Mustang set up almost identical to mine save for an aftermarket converter. Same trap speeds and MUCH better 60 foots on what should be less aggressive rubber for the track. He had a LOW 1.6 60 ( I'm in the high 1.7's) and 11.7's all day long. I'm ordering my converter this week. 4000 RPM stall here I come.
Driving my red car with a 3000 rpm stall, I *am* curious as to what this thing would do with a good auto setup. Would surely be a blast.
My daily is an '87 Grand Marquis and has been since Nov '13. So no worries, there's a stark difference. Especially after all winter long of 150 horsepower :hick: BUT IT'S GOT 3.27s!!!! YEAH BOI! Really though, was sooooo stoked to find out it didn't have 2.73s like my Vic did....
OH AND BTW!!!! Took the Carquest paper filter out of the black car and drove it a mile or two last night. Didn't notice an appreciable difference in acceleration. And it definitely just...stops at 5500. Hesitates and then kiiiiinda wants to keep accelerating just a little but it's over. So yah...I guess I'm alright. I might think of getting a different cam at some point, have another 700 rpm until the limiter...
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 03, 2014, 12:54:29 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 03, 2014, 12:54:29 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438598
Get in something that's relatively slower for a while and drive it on the regular. Taking the toy out after that will give you an appreciation for it and the want for even more.
Got that right! My daily is a whopping ~70hp peak, and with no way to improve that figure. Not terrible at 2000lbs with full gas and driver, but only its decent handling keeps the car somewhat enjoyable. Either way, it takes me 30-40 minutes for the 9-mile commute, so more power wouldn't get used. Hoping to get the tbird's mods completed this weekend, and take it out Sunday for the first time since early 2013. Exhaust piping may cause a problem though...
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 03, 2014, 02:03:39 PM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 03, 2014, 02:03:39 PM
Quote from: Seek;438615
Exhaust piping may cause a problem though...
Nope. Leave it all off. Open headers. Zero eff's given. Bill O'Reilly style DO IT LIVE!!!!! Get out and rip before the winter comes.
Oh wait, you're in Oregon. You don't have to deal with salt like we do over here. I hate you. Go to hell. LOL
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 03, 2014, 11:04:02 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 03, 2014, 11:04:02 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438598
Get in something that's relatively slower for a while and drive it on the regular. Taking the toy out after that will give you an appreciation for it and the want for even more.
FWIW -- I've found a Mustang set up almost identical to mine save for an aftermarket converter. Same trap speeds and MUCH better 60 foots on what should be less aggressive rubber for the track. He had a LOW 1.6 60 ( I'm in the high 1.7's) and 11.7's all day long. I'm ordering my converter this week. 4000 RPM stall here I come.
Are you running drag radials on your Cougar? There is no way I'm cutting anything lower than a 2.0-2.1 60' on street tires. Hell right now if the car is rolling along at 10-15mph if I boot it the car will spin the tires.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 03, 2014, 11:07:53 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 03, 2014, 11:07:53 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;438606
OH AND BTW!!!! Took the Carquest paper filter out of the black car and drove it a mile or two last night. Didn't notice an appreciable difference in acceleration. And it definitely just...stops at 5500. Hesitates and then kiiiiinda wants to keep accelerating just a little but it's over. So yah...I guess I'm alright. I might think of getting a different cam at some point, have another 700 rpm until the limiter...
Actually if you remove the filter the MAF will get some weird signals and just peg at some point. Put the filter back in and I bet it pulls higher in the rpm range. Heck even mine pulls past 5500.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 03:32:44 AM
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 03:32:44 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438631
Are you running drag radials on your Cougar? There is no way I'm cutting anything lower than a 2.0-2.1 60' on street tires. Hell right now if the car is rolling along at 10-15mph if I boot it the car will spin the tires.
Just curious - back when my car was my daily and still had gt40p heads, HO cam, 3.55 gears, 4r70w with stock 12" converter, and sitting on a set of $700 225/60/R16 tires (not cheap junk), I had no problems breaking traction at 40mph - in the summer. It would not stick again unless I let off the throttle. I could never go WOT in traffic due to his persistent problem. My witness was the person I used to carpool with everyday. I'd think you'd have a much easier time breaking traction with the mods in your sig?
Also, yeah - the mass air sensor will not read correctly unless it gets steady airflow through it - turbulence completely throws things like that off.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 04, 2014, 09:47:10 AM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 04, 2014, 09:47:10 AM
Even with the filter in, it's definitely done at 5500.
Maybe that is another problem. http://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs%20dyno%20tfs-k514-360-350%202014c.pdf Torque drops right off past 5K, but I wonder if that would really cause it to hit a wall like it does. Maybe I'm losing fuel. I know *nothing* about the fuel pump in the car other than that it sounds no louder/angrier than a stock one.
Maybe that is another problem. http://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs%20dyno%20tfs-k514-360-350%202014c.pdf Torque drops right off past 5K, but I wonder if that would really cause it to hit a wall like it does. Maybe I'm losing fuel. I know *nothing* about the fuel pump in the car other than that it sounds no louder/angrier than a stock one.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 04, 2014, 10:17:35 AM
Post by: V8Demon on October 04, 2014, 10:17:35 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438631
Are you running drag radials on your Cougar? There is no way I'm cutting anything lower than a 2.0-2.1 60' on street tires. Hell right now if the car is rolling along at 10-15mph if I boot it the car will spin the tires.
Currently running Maxxis Marauder MA-S1's on the Cougar. I drive it in the rain; usually cause I get stuck in it on the way home from wherever I went. It has to be really dry with almost ZERO humidity for me to stand on it....
I run M&H Racemasters on the Mustang. Love them!
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 02:05:32 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 02:05:32 PM
Quote from: Seek;438638
Just curious - back when my car was my daily and still had gt40p heads, HO cam, 3.55 gears, 4r70w with stock 12" converter, and sitting on a set of $700 225/60/R16 tires (not cheap junk), I had no problems breaking traction at 40mph - in the summer. It would not stick again unless I let off the throttle. I could never go WOT in traffic due to his persistent problem. My witness was the person I used to carpool with everyday. I'd think you'd have a much easier time breaking traction with the mods in your sig?
Also, yeah - the mass air sensor will not read correctly unless it gets steady airflow through it - turbulence completely throws things like that off.
When I say boot it I mean press the throttle half way down and hold it there. Floor it means full throttle, at least in my mixed up definition ;).
When I had GT40P heads no way was the car breaking traction at 40mph. A full throttle down shift from 4-2 at 40mph would bark the tires. Now a 4-2 full throttle down shift at 40mph barks the tires and there is a slight bit of wheel spin. It's not loosing so much traction at 40mph that it just spins. Heck even my Mustang with 305hp and 3.31 gears doesn't spin the tires at 40mph. Maybe you guys have slicker streets in the Pacific Northwest? You guys do have quite a bit more rain/humidity than we do. Perhaps it does something to the pavement? All the winter salt here makes our pavement rough as hell.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 02:09:33 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 02:09:33 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438647
Currently running Maxxis Marauder MA-S1's on the Cougar. I drive it in the rain; usually cause I get stuck in it on the way home from wherever I went. It has to be really dry with almost ZERO humidity for me to stand on it....
I run M&H Racemasters on the Mustang. Love them!
Can you get traction from a stop in 1st gear when it's wet outside? The couple of times I've been caught in the rain with the Thunderbird 1st gear was useless from a stop. I had to start in 2nd gear to get any traction. I tried to pass someone when traveling 45mph in the rain and the 4-2 down shift at 3/4 throttle sent the car sideways. Scared the out of me.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 02:13:54 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 02:13:54 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;438644
Maybe I'm losing fuel. I know *nothing* about the fuel pump in the car other than that it sounds no louder/angrier than a stock one.
Good point. I washiznitting like 95% duty cycle on my 24lb injectors, at 39psi, 5000rpms, and 12.6:1 AFR. I expect to hit a wall after installing my new torque converter and increasing the shift point to 6k. I have 30lb injectors to go in now - it was needed before, and more so now with the new intake and TW170 heads.
I'm guessing you don't have a wideband? Have you tuned the combo at all? At 11.5 AFR, you will be using even more fuel, and missing quite a bit of power.
On the earlier note - I ran the car open-headers to pump the fluid out of the transmission pan. In a garage. Sounded beautiful, and ran much smoother. I probably have catalytic converter issues with the old pipes. I got them used many years ago with unknown mileage. For all I know, they've been pretty clogged this entire time.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 02:17:23 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 02:17:23 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;438644
Even with the filter in, it's definitely done at 5500.
Maybe that is another problem. http://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs%20dyno%20tfs-k514-360-350%202014c.pdf Torque drops right off past 5K, but I wonder if that would really cause it to hit a wall like it does. Maybe I'm losing fuel. I know *nothing* about the fuel pump in the car other than that it sounds no louder/angrier than a stock one.
Mine pulls all the way to the end of the digital tach. We all know that it's really accurate. Especially since the tach on the dash shows 800rpm when idling in park and a tach/dwell meter shows 625rpm. Not off at all ;). I bet mine is probably done around 5500rpm as well. I think after the rear end build I'm going to get a nice custom cam and a Performer RPM II intake. I want to be able to make power up to 6000rpm, at least.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 02:50:37 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 02:50:37 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438653
Mine pulls all the way to the end of the digital tach. We all know that it's really accurate. Especially since the tach on the dash shows 800rpm when idling in park and a tach/dwell meter shows 625rpm. Not off at all ;). I bet mine is probably done around 5500rpm as well. I think after the rear end build I'm going to get a nice custom cam and a Performer RPM II intake. I want to be able to make power up to 6000rpm, at least.
Ah - another good point. I tune from datalogs - the EEC knows exactly what rpm it's at, so there isn't an accuracy issue there. Going off of typical gauges, stock or otherwise, you have no idea where you are ever truly at.
On a random note - there is no fuel savings by running at 570rpm idle over 625. Lower than that doesn't idle well... :p
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 04, 2014, 04:19:57 PM
Post by: ZondaC12 on October 04, 2014, 04:19:57 PM
Quote from: Seek;438652
Good point. I washiznitting like 95% duty cycle on my 24lb injectors, at 39psi, 5000rpms, and 12.6:1 AFR. I expect to hit a wall after installing my new torque converter and increasing the shift point to 6k. I have 30lb injectors to go in now - it was needed before, and more so now with the new intake and TW170 heads.
I'm guessing you don't have a wideband? Have you tuned the combo at all? At 11.5 AFR, you will be using even more fuel, and missing quite a bit of power.
On the earlier note - I ran the car open-headers to pump the fluid out of the transmission pan. In a garage. Sounded beautiful, and ran much smoother. I probably have catalytic converter issues with the old pipes. I got them used many years ago with unknown mileage. For all I know, they've been pretty clogged this entire time.
Haven't even a clue as to any feedback. I have no equipment to read the ECM nor do I want to spend the money. Who knows if I'll ever want to spend the money. Sure I'll use it in the future but that first step is so hard to take, to convince yourself it's worth spending hundreds just to talk to your ECU. If I want a dyno tune, I have to go down to the NYC area. There are a couple shops around here, but they're all patently incompetent, and I don't think any of them do Ford EEC-IV.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 05:05:41 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 05:05:41 PM
Quote from: Seek;438654
Ah - another good point. I tune from datalogs - the EEC knows exactly what rpm it's at, so there isn't an accuracy issue there. Going off of typical gauges, stock or otherwise, you have no idea where you are ever truly at.
On a random note - there is no fuel savings by running at 570rpm idle over 625. Lower than that doesn't idle well... :p
I've set mine (just doing a base idle reset as I have no tuning equipment) to idle at 625rpm in park, and 600rpm in drive with the parking brake on. It fires right up hot or cold like a stock 5.0. Any lower than that and I had to hold the throttle open a bit to start the car and any higher and it surged a bit when coming to a stop. The car really needs a tune though. It's a bit rich at idle (I can smell it) and I'm pretty sure it's probably a bit rich through the entire rpm range.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 06:03:41 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 06:03:41 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438657
I've set mine (just doing a base idle reset as I have no tuning equipment) to idle at 625rpm in park, and 600rpm in drive with the parking brake on. It fires right up hot or cold like a stock 5.0. Any lower than that and I had to hold the throttle open a bit to start the car and any higher and it surged a bit when coming to a stop. The car really needs a tune though. It's a bit rich at idle (I can smell it) and I'm pretty sure it's probably a bit rich through the entire rpm range.
If I remember right, the MAF EEC always shoots for around 11.6:1 AFR, after cold start. AFR's are closer to 10-10.5:1 on cold start, for quite awhile. It learns your engine changes based on feedback in closed loop. Many times, your engine may actually be running a point leaner than that, and this is when it would make the most power. This was my experience, with different sets of sensors - they appeared to be reporting correctly according to datalogs, but my car would run leaner in the evening than in the morning. Different MAF sensors didn't help, and neither did 19lb vs 24lb injectors. Good power is obtained by getting to ~12.5 AFR, rather than living around 11.5.
The stock tune of the EEC shoots for 672rpm in idle, and 624rpm in drive. If you are adjusting the TB screw, the EEC will compensate with the IAC, until it can no longer do so. If you have a true 600rpm in drive, your IAC is either disconnected, or pegged, as the EEC tries using it to to raise the rpm's to the proper level. This will make your idle quality suffer. If you unplugged the IAC, adjusted the TB screw to that level, then plugged the IAC back in, the EEC should be able to control idle correctly, and you will be at the above target idle rpm's.
Dyno tuning also won't get a car dialed in for anything but WOT, and it doesn't account for all of the variables that are not in effect the day that the dyno tune was performed. General drive-ability needs a lot more tuning work to get running well. I figured it was worth the few hundred dollars to be able to get good drive-ability, and datalog far more than what most dyno tuners are capable of seeing from the EEC IV systems. If I felt something weird on a drive, I would go home and review the log to see what the cause was, and make any adjustments as necessary. Fun stuff!
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
I did adjust the idle screw with the IAC unplugged. It's the only way to do it correctly. The IAC is functioning as disconnecting it causes the idle to drop.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438662
I did adjust the idle screw with the IAC unplugged. It's the only way to do it correctly. The IAC is functioning as disconnecting it causes the idle to drop.
Do you have 600/625rpms with the IAC connected or not? You should have that idle without IAC, so that there is sufficient headroom for getting up to 800rpms. When the MAF and TPS are in a failed state, the EEC will use the IAC to reach a 800rpm idle. If idle is setup correctly, it should have no problem adding that extra 200rpms, plus a little more. Max drive rpm is 824.
Just FYI. Now that we're completely off topic... ;)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 07:29:35 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 07:29:35 PM
Quote from: Seek;438663
Do you have 600/625rpms with the IAC connected or not? You should have that idle without IAC, so that there is sufficient headroom for getting up to 800rpms. When the MAF and TPS are in a failed state, the EEC will use the IAC to reach a 800rpm idle. If idle is setup correctly, it should have no problem adding that extra 200rpms, plus a little more. Max drive rpm is 824.
Just FYI. Now that we're completely off topic... ;)
Idle is 600rpm in park, 575rpm in drive IAC disconnected. With IAC connected it's 625rpm in park, 600rpm in drive. IAC is functioning properly, verified by a tach/dwell meter.
Back on topic a bit ;). What MAF are you running? I've obviously got a 76mm C&L MAF but I've been considering switching to a 80mm PMAS MAF before I attempt to Dyno tune the car. That or a 90mm Lightning MAF. Both are more accurate than the C&L.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 08:10:54 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 04, 2014, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438664
Idle is 600rpm in park, 575rpm in drive IAC disconnected. With IAC connected it's 625rpm in park, 600rpm in drive. IAC is functioning properly, verified by a tach/dwell meter.
Back on topic a bit ;). What MAF are you running? I've obviously got a 76mm C&L MAF but I've been considering switching to a 80mm PMAS MAF before I attempt to Dyno tune the car. That or a 90mm Lightning MAF. Both are more accurate than the C&L.
I have a 75mm pro-m unit. I am swapping over to a second-gen LMAF when I drop in the 30lb injectors, and re-tune. Drive-ability seems improved from what I've read. The only issue is moving up to larger 4" intake piping - gathering the parts and making it work with the stock airbox. Obviously, modification to the airbox is needed.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 10:45:42 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 04, 2014, 10:45:42 PM
The opening on the stock air box is 3.5 inches, which is 88.9mm. It's only 1.1mm smaller than the Liightning MAF. I don't think the 1.1mm would make a huge difference. 3.5 inch or larger piping behind the MAF should be fine. I'd be more worried about the stock size air filter being somewhat of a restriction. Maybe? At this point I'm not sure. Someone needs to dyno all these combos.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 05, 2014, 02:30:55 AM
Post by: Masejoer on October 05, 2014, 02:30:55 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438674
The opening on the stock air box is 3.5 inches, which is 88.9mm. It's only 1.1mm smaller than the Liightning MAF. I don't think the 1.1mm would make a huge difference. 3.5 inch or larger piping behind the MAF should be fine. I'd be more worried about the stock size air filter being somewhat of a restriction. Maybe? At this point I'm not sure. Someone needs to dyno all these combos.
I'll have to measure again, but I think some measurement is really close to 4". Whatever intake piping I go with, I will be making sure that there is as little turbulence as possible around the MAF sensor.
The stock airbox/filter will be fine.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 05, 2014, 11:23:59 AM
Post by: V8Demon on October 05, 2014, 11:23:59 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438651
Can you get traction from a stop in 1st gear when it's wet outside? The couple of times I've been caught in the rain with the Thunderbird 1st gear was useless from a stop. I had to start in 2nd gear to get any traction. I tried to pass someone when traveling 45mph in the rain and the 4-2 down shift at 3/4 throttle sent the car sideways. Scared the out of me.
No. I have ease into it gently. Rain means I never go more than about 1/3 throttle.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 05, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 05, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438698
No. I have ease into it gently. Rain means I never go more than about 1/3 throttle.
I can't even use that much throttle in 1st. You've got better tires than I do. Or at least stickier.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 05, 2014, 10:22:06 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 05, 2014, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: Seek;438638
Just curious - back when my car was my daily and still had gt40p heads, HO cam, 3.55 gears, 4r70w with stock 12" converter, and sitting on a set of $700 225/60/R16 tires (not cheap junk), I had no problems breaking traction at 40mph - in the summer. It would not stick again unless I let off the throttle. I could never go WOT in traffic due to his persistent problem. My witness was the person I used to carpool with everyday. I'd think you'd have a much easier time breaking traction with the mods in your sig?
Also, yeah - the mass air sensor will not read correctly unless it gets steady airflow through it - turbulence completely throws things like that off.
Quote from: thunderjet302;438650
When I say boot it I mean press the throttle half way down and hold it there. Floor it means full throttle, at least in my mixed up definition ;).
When I had GT40P heads no way was the car breaking traction at 40mph. A full throttle down shift from 4-2 at 40mph would bark the tires. Now a 4-2 full throttle down shift at 40mph barks the tires and there is a slight bit of wheel spin. It's not loosing so much traction at 40mph that it just spins. Heck even my Mustang with 305hp and 3.31 gears doesn't spin the tires at 40mph. Maybe you guys have slicker streets in the Pacific Northwest? You guys do have quite a bit more rain/humidity than we do. Perhaps it does something to the pavement? All the winter salt here makes our pavement rough as hell.
Apparently I was wrong. It was 60* and sunny today so I took the Thunderbird out for a ride. I put the pedal to the floor while rolling along at 40mph. Sure enough it broke traction and swayed back and forth slightly till I let off the throttle. Anything less than 3/4 throttle wasn't a problem. I think it has to do with the temperature of the asphalt. In the summer (when I mostly drive the car) 80* plus temperatures and the sun more than likely make the road much stickier than a sunny 60* fall day. Plus I normally don't go wot at 40mph. I don't need that much power to pass at that speed.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 09, 2014, 05:58:21 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 09, 2014, 05:58:21 PM
This is more for me and Paul but I have a theory about using the March air box with a filter bolted to the end of a 76mm C&L MAF:
The C&L MAF design is based on flow bench testing. So when they came up with the calibration for the 76mm MAF with 24lb injectors and the stock air box they flowed it. Same thing with the 76mm MAF and a conical filter mounted on the end of the MAF. In that case it was an open, exposed filter. So by putting the conical filter in the March air box I wonder if the "calibration" has been messed with? Since the filter can only draw air from the fender opening air is entering the filter only from the side by the fender. I'm actually wondering if building a shield that covers the rear of the filter and the side next to the engine while leaving the area next to the fender opening and behind the headlight open may improve performance? Since the filter would be able to draw air from all sides it *may* be a better setup than the March box. The newer (S197) Mustang "cold air" kits use a conical filter mounted in a large box where the filter has unrestricted 360* air access. In the March box the filter can only draw air from one side. I'm thinking a shield with some foam to seal it to the hood might be a better idea. Something like the picture I've attached. Now I just need to figure out how to re-create that design. Perhaps a plastic box trimmed down to fit?
The C&L MAF design is based on flow bench testing. So when they came up with the calibration for the 76mm MAF with 24lb injectors and the stock air box they flowed it. Same thing with the 76mm MAF and a conical filter mounted on the end of the MAF. In that case it was an open, exposed filter. So by putting the conical filter in the March air box I wonder if the "calibration" has been messed with? Since the filter can only draw air from the fender opening air is entering the filter only from the side by the fender. I'm actually wondering if building a shield that covers the rear of the filter and the side next to the engine while leaving the area next to the fender opening and behind the headlight open may improve performance? Since the filter would be able to draw air from all sides it *may* be a better setup than the March box. The newer (S197) Mustang "cold air" kits use a conical filter mounted in a large box where the filter has unrestricted 360* air access. In the March box the filter can only draw air from one side. I'm thinking a shield with some foam to seal it to the hood might be a better idea. Something like the picture I've attached. Now I just need to figure out how to re-create that design. Perhaps a plastic box trimmed down to fit?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 09, 2014, 06:30:20 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 09, 2014, 06:30:20 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;438714
Apparently I was wrong. It was 60* and sunny today so I took the Thunderbird out for a ride. I put the pedal to the floor while rolling along at 40mph. Sure enough it broke traction and swayed back and forth slightly till I let off the throttle. Anything less than 3/4 throttle wasn't a problem. I think it has to do with the temperature of the asphalt. In the summer (when I mostly drive the car) 80* plus temperatures and the sun more than likely make the road much stickier than a sunny 60* fall day. Plus I normally don't go wot at 40mph. I don't need that much power to pass at that speed.
That is the ONLY time I really "need" that much power. I was fine with 155hp as a new driver, until I drove out to the coast. One lane each direction, slow trucks, lots of cars backed up behind them. Passing means getting up to speed quickly in oncoming traffic to pass and get back into the proper lane. Yes, a lot of other safety issues to be concerned with, but stock power was insufficient for even passing a single trailer. I spent a lot of time waiting for "passing lanes", going 30-40mph in a 55.
40mph passing has its place ;)
Of course, even a stock HO motor had a lot more passing capability than the restricted SO motor. As people go 400hp+, it's all for giggles.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 09, 2014, 10:03:17 PM
Post by: V8Demon on October 09, 2014, 10:03:17 PM
Quote from: Seek;438881
40mph passing has its place ;)
Is your AOD giving you 2nd gear when you go to pass @ 40?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 09, 2014, 10:42:43 PM
Post by: Masejoer on October 09, 2014, 10:42:43 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438887
Is your AOD giving you 2nd gear when you go to pass @ 40?
4r70w. 5000 shift point shifts to second at the following speeds, based on the rearend ratios:
2.73: 51.27mph
3.08: 45.45mph
3.27: 42.80mph
3.55: 39.43mph
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/5000rpmShiftPoints.png)
6000rpm shift point is the following:
2.73: 61.53mph
3.08: 54.53mph
3.27: 51.37mph
3.55: 47.31mph
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/6000rpmShiftPoints.png)
Above is a couple graphs pulled out of an Excel document I made years ago. They show shift points, speed, and gearing multiplication. Spent forever in Excel to calculate mechanical advantage at different speeds, in different gears, with different rear axle ratios, different tire sizes, and estimated fuel economy differences. It made me go with 3.08 rearend gears at the time. I tried to also do acceleration calculations, ignoring traction, with a fixed input torque value, but it got a bit complicated - I gave up.
Anyway, the above graphs show when certain gears need to shift, and at that point, numerically lower rearend gear ratios provide higher power for a bit longer. If you design around one or more specific passing speeds, you can best take advantage of the gear ratios in a vehicle. Above you can see how 2.73's are faster than 3.55's in between 41 and 61mph, when using a 6k shift point. With a 5k shift point (12" converter safe range), the 2.73's are faster in between 39-51mph. The above figures assume 2.83 1st gear and 1.55 second (4r70w's wide ratios).
Of course, with the electronic transmission and controller, I can program any behavior I want. The cable actuated AOD will shift all over the place depending on the vehicle.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 09, 2014, 11:05:00 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 09, 2014, 11:05:00 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;438887
Is your AOD giving you 2nd gear when you go to pass @ 40?
Going to say his car has a 4R70W.
The AOD in my car will do a 4-2 downshift at 40mph with a little over 1/2 throttle. I usually just keep it there and it gets to 55mph pretty quickly.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: Masejoer on October 10, 2014, 01:59:40 AM
Post by: Masejoer on October 10, 2014, 01:59:40 AM
Oh, yeah. When at 40mph, if I floor it, it goes down into 1st for a split second. Never any traction, and the 1-2 shift also has no traction. I have 3.08's right now. Going to reinstall 3.55's in a bit - after the car can move itself again.
I don't remember what tires I have. They are basically new, but 3-years old at this point. Pretty soft rubber though.
I don't remember what tires I have. They are basically new, but 3-years old at this point. Pretty soft rubber though.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 13, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 13, 2014, 02:44:53 PM
Well I've started on a shield for the filter. I figure it's low cost so why not try it. So far this has cost me $5. I just got a office Rubbermade trash can from Home Depot and went to town with some tin snips. It needs a bit more work to sit better and some rubber weather stripping to seal to the hood bottom but it might end up working. Plus it will take in air from behind the headlamp area. The filter has a much larger area to draw air from vs the modified March Ram Air box.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110332_zps04da4ee8.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110332_zps04da4ee8.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110325_zpsf567c4ca.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110325_zpsf567c4ca.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110332_zps04da4ee8.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110332_zps04da4ee8.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110325_zpsf567c4ca.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20141013_110325_zpsf567c4ca.jpg.html)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 16, 2014, 06:28:06 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 16, 2014, 06:28:06 PM
I sped the Rubbermaid trash can shield idea. I couldn't get it to look good. Went back to the March box. I figure if car have been into the high 11s with the entire March Ram Air kit that the box can't be that much of a restriction.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 19, 2014, 06:52:52 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 19, 2014, 06:52:52 PM
Well I did a "scientific study" today between the stock air box with a K&N and the March box with conical K&N. I drove 80 miles to the track (about an hour and fifteen minutes). Air temp was 55* the whole day. I went through tech and just ran the car in street trim (32psi in the rear tires 16* initial timing March box and conical filter):
60': 2.121
E.T.: 14.229
MPH: 97.09
Bumped the timing to 18* initial and lowered the rear tires to 28psi:
60': 2.101
E.T.: 14.124
MPH: 98.04
That was the best it ran of three consecutive runs. All the runs were virtually identical. I then went back to the pits and disconnected the battery for 30 minutes. I fired it up and ran again:
60': 2.144
E.T.: 14.282
MPH: 97.17
So after that run I went back to the pits and disconnected the battery for 30 minutes. While the battery was disconnected I swapped the stock air box with K&N panel filter back on along with the correct sample tube for the MAF. I then ran the car again:
60': 2.167
E.T.: 14.296
MPH: 96.96
So what does this mean? In my case the stock air box and the conical filter both provide the same amount of power. The stock air box doesn't seem to be a restriction on my ~270rwhp car. The MPH change was well within a run to run variance.
60': 2.121
E.T.: 14.229
MPH: 97.09
Bumped the timing to 18* initial and lowered the rear tires to 28psi:
60': 2.101
E.T.: 14.124
MPH: 98.04
That was the best it ran of three consecutive runs. All the runs were virtually identical. I then went back to the pits and disconnected the battery for 30 minutes. I fired it up and ran again:
60': 2.144
E.T.: 14.282
MPH: 97.17
So after that run I went back to the pits and disconnected the battery for 30 minutes. While the battery was disconnected I swapped the stock air box with K&N panel filter back on along with the correct sample tube for the MAF. I then ran the car again:
60': 2.167
E.T.: 14.296
MPH: 96.96
So what does this mean? In my case the stock air box and the conical filter both provide the same amount of power. The stock air box doesn't seem to be a restriction on my ~270rwhp car. The MPH change was well within a run to run variance.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on October 20, 2014, 06:10:54 AM
Post by: V8Demon on October 20, 2014, 06:10:54 AM
Put some tires on that thing and crack into the 13s.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 20, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 20, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;439409
Put some tires on that thing and crack into the 13s.
That's next years plan. In the spring an 8.8" rear with a 31 spline Traction-Lok, 31 spline axles, 3.73 gears, and CHE rear arms is going in. That along with a set of drag radials will get the car into the mid 13s as it sits cutting a 1.8-1.9 60'.
After the rear upgrade then comes a custom cam and a Performer RPM II or Systemax intake. Gotta get the power I have down before adding 20-30 more horsepower.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on March 18, 2015, 09:20:30 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 18, 2015, 09:20:30 PM
Dragging this one out of the dead..... I ordered a Mac CT9 sample tube (C&L equivalent - 099/Purple)..... Time for 30 pounders.
I've been doing research as to just WHAT 30 pounders I want as the old school red top EV1's are unobtainium; even used. 30 pounders can mean many different things as well. Actual CC measurements from 300-330 can be listed as a 30 pound injector. Also high impedance can mean 12 ohm ... (factory for ours was around 14.5). It's turning into quite the ebay search because you CAN find a set of 8 injectors for $150 new; just gotta make sure they are correct.
FYI -- the 2.0 in my 2012 Ford Focus apparently has 30 pound injectors (315 cc) with an EV6 body and a Jetronic/Minitimer connector, meaning they would work with a factory EEC-IV fuel injector harness......
I'm looking for impedance data.
I've been doing research as to just WHAT 30 pounders I want as the old school red top EV1's are unobtainium; even used. 30 pounders can mean many different things as well. Actual CC measurements from 300-330 can be listed as a 30 pound injector. Also high impedance can mean 12 ohm ... (factory for ours was around 14.5). It's turning into quite the ebay search because you CAN find a set of 8 injectors for $150 new; just gotta make sure they are correct.
FYI -- the 2.0 in my 2012 Ford Focus apparently has 30 pound injectors (315 cc) with an EV6 body and a Jetronic/Minitimer connector, meaning they would work with a factory EEC-IV fuel injector harness......
I'm looking for impedance data.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 19, 2015, 01:00:11 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 19, 2015, 01:00:11 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;446325
Dragging this one out of the dead..... I ordered a Mac CT9 sample tube (C&L equivalent - 099/Purple)..... Time for 30 pounders.
I've been doing research as to just WHAT 30 pounders I want as the old school red top EV1's are unobtainium; even used. 30 pounders can mean many different things as well. Actual CC measurements from 300-330 can be listed as a 30 pound injector. Also high impedance can mean 12 ohm ... (factory for ours was around 14.5). It's turning into quite the ebay search because you CAN find a set of 8 injectors for $150 new; just gotta make sure they are correct.
FYI -- the 2.0 in my 2012 Ford Focus apparently has 30 pound injectors (315 cc) with an EV6 body and a Jetronic/Minitimer connector, meaning they would work with a factory EEC-IV fuel injector harness......
I'm looking for impedance data.
What about these:http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/ACL-150830/Accel-Mustang-30Lb-Fuel-Injectors
They should work.
On a side note I ditched making the filter shield and I am continuing to run the March box with the snorkel removed. Also thanks to the accurate Autometer tachometer I installed I found out I've been short shifting the out of my car. Turns out when I thought I was up shifting (valvebody has the epoxy mod so I shift manually at the track) at 5500rpm I was actually up shifting at 4900rpm. I bet another 500 to 600 rpms would make a difference in trap speed....
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on March 19, 2015, 06:35:16 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 19, 2015, 06:35:16 PM
They'll work, but you can find others that will for less.
**EDIT **
Just scored a set of remanufactured Ford specific pieces for less than half of the Accels with a warranty.
**EDIT **
Just scored a set of remanufactured Ford specific pieces for less than half of the Accels with a warranty.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2015, 11:00:45 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2015, 11:00:45 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;446357
They'll work, but you can find others that will for less.
**EDIT **
Just scored a set of remanufactured Ford specific pieces for less than half of the Accels with a warranty.
Nice. Red tops?
I've been thinking about getting a set of 30lb injectors. With Edelbrock heads the car has to be approaching 90%+ duty cycle at WOT with 24lb injectors. I've got no lean codes though. I'm curious how your car responds to the calibrated C&L MAF with 30lb injectors. Most people seem to have no problem with C&L meters and 19lb or 24lb injectors. It's the 30lb and up that usually cause problems.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2015, 11:06:10 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2015, 11:06:10 AM
Also as far as filter shields go this may be another option besides the March Ram Air box:
(http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/images/vacuum%20formed%20shield%20003.jpg)
It's a heat shield from JLT cold air for 99-04 Mustang GTs. It's only $39, which is cheaper than buying a new March Ram Air box: http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=132_137&products_id=383
This is how it looks mounted in a 99-04 Mustang GT.
(http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/images/vacuum%20formed%20shield%20003_2.jpg)
(http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/bmz_cache/8/8da79f121153411e4639345d33fbad6f.image.750x499.JPG)
It looks like it might be an option, depending on the angle of the piping used back to the throttle body.
(http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/images/vacuum%20formed%20shield%20003.jpg)
It's a heat shield from JLT cold air for 99-04 Mustang GTs. It's only $39, which is cheaper than buying a new March Ram Air box: http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=132_137&products_id=383
This is how it looks mounted in a 99-04 Mustang GT.
(http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/images/vacuum%20formed%20shield%20003_2.jpg)
(http://jlttruecoldair.com/ZenCart/bmz_cache/8/8da79f121153411e4639345d33fbad6f.image.750x499.JPG)
It looks like it might be an option, depending on the angle of the piping used back to the throttle body.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on March 20, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 20, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;446374
Nice. Red tops?
I've been thinking about getting a set of 30lb injectors. With Edelbrock heads the car has to be approaching 90%+ duty cycle at WOT with 24lb injectors. I've got no lean codes though. I'm curious how your car responds to the calibrated C&L MAF with 30lb injectors. Most people seem to have no problem with C&L meters and 19lb or 24lb injectors. It's the 30lb and up that usually cause problems.
I'm curious as well. I won't sell my other stuff until I'm sure that this is dialed in. Most people don't run a large enough filter or some other issue though. I think this will work nicely. Plus I can run it at stock pressure again. Less stressful on all the fuel system components.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2015, 02:34:58 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 20, 2015, 02:34:58 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;446383
I'm curious as well. I won't sell my other stuff until I'm sure that this is dialed in. Most people don't run a large enough filter or some other issue though. I think this will work nicely. Plus I can run it at stock pressure again. Less stressful on all the fuel system components.
I think a lot of the issues people run into with C&L MAFs and 30lb injectors is running them with the stock airbox. It states on C&L's site:
19lb injector calibration: stock airbox
24lb injector calibration: this tube for stock airbox, this tube for conical filter.
30lb injector+ calibration: conical filter
In other words most people are doing it wrong.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on March 20, 2015, 07:55:20 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 20, 2015, 07:55:20 PM
Yup. Then they complain about the product when it's either operator error or a bad combination of parts.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2015, 03:20:22 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on September 09, 2015, 03:20:22 PM
Well I changed some more stuff for fun. This is what happens when you sell some old parts and work some OT :hick:. I have been running a 76mm C&L MAF with their 76mm intake tube. The car ran great with no issues.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/rpmp_zpsjfbmsgro.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/rpmp_zpsjfbmsgro.jpg.html)
Because hot rod I couldn't leave well enough alone. I have been interested in a slightly larger MAF that I could tune later one, i.e. one that had a better, actually usable transfer function unlike the C&L unit. So I purchased a 80mm PMAS slot MAF calibrated for 30lb injectors. It comes with a 30 point transfer function and has the benefit of being a new, 2005 and up, style slot MAF. I also replaced the piping between the back of the MAF and the throttle body with 3.5" diameter tubing because a bigger MAF means more airflow ;). I swapped this stuff on today. The car runs great without any issues. Upper RPM throttle response feels slightly better as well.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/newmaf2_zpscbr4ernf.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/newmaf2_zpscbr4ernf.jpg.html)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/rpmp_zpsjfbmsgro.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/rpmp_zpsjfbmsgro.jpg.html)
Because hot rod I couldn't leave well enough alone. I have been interested in a slightly larger MAF that I could tune later one, i.e. one that had a better, actually usable transfer function unlike the C&L unit. So I purchased a 80mm PMAS slot MAF calibrated for 30lb injectors. It comes with a 30 point transfer function and has the benefit of being a new, 2005 and up, style slot MAF. I also replaced the piping between the back of the MAF and the throttle body with 3.5" diameter tubing because a bigger MAF means more airflow ;). I swapped this stuff on today. The car runs great without any issues. Upper RPM throttle response feels slightly better as well.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/newmaf2_zpscbr4ernf.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/newmaf2_zpscbr4ernf.jpg.html)
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on December 06, 2015, 12:19:20 PM
Post by: V8Demon on December 06, 2015, 12:19:20 PM
Where'd you get the black tubing goi g to the throttle body?
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 06, 2015, 12:37:43 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 06, 2015, 12:37:43 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;452820
Where'd you get the black tubing goi g to the throttle body?
Here: http://www.siliconeintakes.com/holset-turbocharger/silicone-90-p-416.html
3.5 inch 90* elbow, 3.5 inch hump hose, and 3.5 inch aluminum pipe.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on December 06, 2015, 03:17:45 PM
Post by: V8Demon on December 06, 2015, 03:17:45 PM
Nice. Unobtainable in any store around here, including the local, and quite large, speed shop.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 07, 2015, 09:07:28 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 07, 2015, 09:07:28 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;452823
Nice. Unobtainable in any store around here, including the local, and quite large, speed shop.
My local speed shop actually has these couplers in stock. The problem is they want more for them that the online store does so I just ordered them from the internet.
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 07, 2016, 04:03:40 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on January 07, 2016, 04:03:40 PM
So I figure I would give this whole thread a summary. Because why not? :hick:
The stock airbox fender opening on an 86-88 Thunderbird/Cougar (as well as 86-93 Mustang and 86-92 Lincoln Mark VII) is equivalent to a 5" diameter hole. This opening has the capability to flow almost 2000cfm of air, far more than any 302-408ci small block is going to need.
The stock paper element in the stock airbox flows about 600cfm, and repalcement panel K&N about 50cfm more (~650cfm). A BBK style cold air intake has a conical filter equivalent in size and flow to a panel K&N. So switching from a stock airbox with a panel K&N filter (with the silencer in the fender removed) to a BBK style cold air intake gains nothing as far as performance is concerned.
The stock rubber tubing between the airbox and throttle body (or MAF and throttle body if you've converter to MAF) is about 3". That's the minimum size you want to run if you replace this tubing with something else.
A common sized, 9" long, conical filter clamped to the end of a MAF can flow about 900cfm of air. If your combo needs more air than the stock panel filter can provide a 9" or so long conical filter is a good way to get the air. Your best bet is to not run the filter open to engine bay heat. Either enclose it in something like a March Ram Air box, build a heat shield that seals the filter from engine bay heat, or run something like an Anderson Ford Power Pipe that places the filter in the fender-well. The minimum intake tubing size in this application should be 3" ID. 3.5" or 4" ID tubing is better but not totally necessary.
So:
If you have a stock standard 5.0 or 5.0 HO just pop the silencer in the fender off and run a stock paper filter or a K&N panel. Don't waster your money on a BBK style cold air intake (unless it's for bling factor ;)).
If you've done GT40/GT40P iron heads, GT40 intake, and a HO or better cam the stock airbox with a K&N panel filter and silencer in the fender removed will flow plenty for your setup.
If you have AFR165/Edelbrock Performer/Trick Flow TW170 heads on your 302 then you're going to want to ditch the stock airbox to maximize your combination. One of the conical filter solutions above is your best bet.
Got a 331/347/363/351/393/408? You better be running 4" ID intake tubing and at least a 9" conical filter :D
The stock airbox fender opening on an 86-88 Thunderbird/Cougar (as well as 86-93 Mustang and 86-92 Lincoln Mark VII) is equivalent to a 5" diameter hole. This opening has the capability to flow almost 2000cfm of air, far more than any 302-408ci small block is going to need.
The stock paper element in the stock airbox flows about 600cfm, and repalcement panel K&N about 50cfm more (~650cfm). A BBK style cold air intake has a conical filter equivalent in size and flow to a panel K&N. So switching from a stock airbox with a panel K&N filter (with the silencer in the fender removed) to a BBK style cold air intake gains nothing as far as performance is concerned.
The stock rubber tubing between the airbox and throttle body (or MAF and throttle body if you've converter to MAF) is about 3". That's the minimum size you want to run if you replace this tubing with something else.
A common sized, 9" long, conical filter clamped to the end of a MAF can flow about 900cfm of air. If your combo needs more air than the stock panel filter can provide a 9" or so long conical filter is a good way to get the air. Your best bet is to not run the filter open to engine bay heat. Either enclose it in something like a March Ram Air box, build a heat shield that seals the filter from engine bay heat, or run something like an Anderson Ford Power Pipe that places the filter in the fender-well. The minimum intake tubing size in this application should be 3" ID. 3.5" or 4" ID tubing is better but not totally necessary.
So:
If you have a stock standard 5.0 or 5.0 HO just pop the silencer in the fender off and run a stock paper filter or a K&N panel. Don't waster your money on a BBK style cold air intake (unless it's for bling factor ;)).
If you've done GT40/GT40P iron heads, GT40 intake, and a HO or better cam the stock airbox with a K&N panel filter and silencer in the fender removed will flow plenty for your setup.
If you have AFR165/Edelbrock Performer/Trick Flow TW170 heads on your 302 then you're going to want to ditch the stock airbox to maximize your combination. One of the conical filter solutions above is your best bet.
Got a 331/347/363/351/393/408? You better be running 4" ID intake tubing and at least a 9" conical filter :D
Title: Cold air intakes
Post by: V8Demon on January 11, 2016, 06:08:31 PM
Post by: V8Demon on January 11, 2016, 06:08:31 PM
Can we edit the first post with the above listed summary added to it?
Would be great!
Would be great!