Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: slamedcat on December 07, 2005, 06:55:33 PM
And they still can't get a good exhaust system under it.
I think this will be a big blow to the Mustang, and I like it. Ford needs to step back and take a look at what chevy is doing with there engiens and try the same instead of this 4.6 they call top of the line. They get stomped by a push rod engine. Come on Ford look around OHC isn't everything.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 07, 2005, 07:04:10 PM
I do hope they make revisions to it from this concept. I see a great shape, but all the details are overly exaggerated, the mirrors are too...ghey, the rear too stubby, tail lights too squinty, nose is too...akward
im hoping that GM can refine it, and make it look more like a real car, than a concept
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: DakotaEpic on December 07, 2005, 07:43:45 PM
Hmmm, those mirror are hella ghey. The wheels on it are huge for factory. And factory racing buckets?? That might be cool. I know it's just a concept, but that interior is BARREN. There's just nothing to it. I guess in genuine race car heritage, that is how it should be, but not for something that is supposed to be a daily driver. All in all I think it will beinteresting to see what the final project looks like.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: cougarman on December 07, 2005, 07:47:35 PM
:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on December 07, 2005, 07:49:18 PM
Wow thats almost as ulgy as the next gen GTO's, Looks more like a vette than a camaro. Personally i was hoping for this one to come true.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 07, 2005, 08:39:20 PM
Quote from: 20th anny 5.o
Wow thats almost as ulgy as the next gen GTO's, Looks more like a vette than a camaro. Personally i was hoping for this one to come true.
I liked that one better myself, but it was never a GM design. Just a Camaro fan's wet dream.
As for the next gen GTO, you would be the only person on earth who has seen it. If you have seen something, I can guarantee it didn't come from GM, but automotive speculation. There aren't even any hints as to the new GTO design direction. Just that it will be edgier.
Come on guys. It's a preliminary design sketch. You can tell that they hadn't even decided on a design at that point, since there are clearly two different interpretations shown. Look at the left side vs. the right. They are two different shapes, from the bottom of the front facia to the rear deck lid. And those mirrors would never make production, so I'd ignore them alltogether.
I guess we'll see in a month. :)
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Ether947 on December 07, 2005, 09:09:08 PM
I like the grill. xD
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 07, 2005, 09:24:21 PM
Quote from: slamedcat
And they still can't get a good exhaust system under it.
I think this will be a big blow to the Mustang, and I like it. Ford needs to step back and take a look at what chevy is doing with there engiens and try the same instead of this 4.6 they call top of the line. They get stomped by a push rod engine. Come on Ford look around OHC isn't everything.
I dunno about that. The 4.6 is only just starting to come into its own. 300 horses N/A isn't bad for a 3-valve 281 CI engine, and the Cobra's underrated 390 horses ain't too shabby either, supercharged or not. Then there's the underrated 550 horses from the GT's 5.4. And the 450+ horses in the upcoming Shelby GT500. The modular engine family has loads of potential, and that potential is only just starting to be realized. This engine family has come a long, long way from the 190-horse Town Car engine of the early 90's and the 215 horse Mustang engine of the mid 90's.
Just think - in a few years the BASE Mustang will have a 250-horse V6. That is 25 horses more than were available to the beloved 5.0 (and a full 100 horses more than our 5.0 'Birds and Cougars), and only 10 short of the 99-04 GT. The GT now has 300 horses, almost as many as the top-of-the-line Cobra of a few years ago. And the last 390-horse Cobra had power never even heard of before in a stock Mustang. And hopefully in a few years GM and Chrysler will have comparable cars for sale.
Yes, the LS6 makes 400 horses, but the LS6 is also 6.0 liters. Yes, the LS7 makes 500 horses, but that LS7 is also 7.0 liters. GM makes horsepower with old school tech and cubic inches, Ford makes it with technology and supercharging. There is nothing wrong with either approach. The end result is that the horsepower war is far from over, the so-called glory days of muscle cars are only just beginning, and car enthusiasts, regardless of their brand loyalty, have some very compelling choices right now.
I always laugh at the whiners on both sides. Ford guys whine about GM's cubic inch advantage, GM guys whine about Ford's use of superchargers. Nobody seems to notice that both sides (and now Chrysler too) are producing the most exciting cars in 40 years.
As for that Camaro concept - love it. Anything that keeps the Mustang on its toes and the pony car segment relevant in general is a good thing. Who knows - now that the domestics are actually going to be producing interesting cars, maybe they'll get some market share back...
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Beau on December 07, 2005, 09:32:25 PM
while by no means am I a GM fan, I'd like to see a new Camaro. I wasn't around in the 60's and 70's for the first pony car war, so I can't wait to see this one! Hope it turns out better than the last gen. of camaro, too. Too bad Daimler/Chrysler has their collective headsa up their collective asses about the new Charger....
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: slamedcat on December 07, 2005, 09:43:20 PM
Ya but you proved my point they make comparable HP, Ford with the super charger and GM with cubes. Now if one of them would get off their ass and compine the two.
Or how about ford get something bigger than the 5.4 then PUT IT IN A CAR, or GM use a DOHC LS6 or LS7.
Im just sick of Ford vs. GM vs. Chrysler. It seams that in the last 30 years or so the price of power has gone through the roof and the average person can't afford it. It needs to be foreign vs. Domestic. Who cares if the guy next door has a $200,000 porsche with leather and gps and all that stuff. Its nice but what if you can get that in a Domestic with an 1/8 of the price tag.
What happend to walking into the dealer and walking out with a big block 4 speed 2 door for $5000. Now you walk in sign over an arm, leg and your first born for any new car thats worth a . And buying used just isn't an option any more they want the same for a use car as a new one.
I purcahse an 01 Focus in 03 $10,000. Fully loaded except for the sun roof and it had a 5 speed. Dealer tells me it had their 100 point inspection BS. 3 month later the trany loses 3rd gear, talk to the service people, they tell me its a common problem and there is no recall. Now why don't I just go buy a Honda.
Sold the car for what was left on the load and lost $2000 in performance parts I put on the thing just to get rid of the car. Bought my 88 Cougar hasn't left me on the side of the road yet.
Focus=36,000mi Cougar=198,000mi
Focus=$10,000 Cougar=$1,500
Bottom line they need to see not everyone can afforg the cars they build and quite crying when profits are down and everyone is driving a Honda or Toyota.
I will step down from my soap box and had the mic to the next person in line now.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 07, 2005, 09:54:45 PM
I dunno, $25k for a 300 horse Mustang, $35k for a 350-horse Charger - those are bargains in today's market. Consider that a V6 honda Accord costs considerably more than a Mustang GT and not much less than a Hemi Charger or 300C. What happened to the $5k big block muscle car? The same thing that happened to 25 cents/gal gas, 5 cent movie admission, 10 cent chocloate bars, $25k houses, etc. It's called inflation.
As for enormous engines in regular cars - don't count on it. North America just had a huge wake up call when it comes to gasoline (and the wake up call is not over - gas here just went back up to a buck a liter from 87.9 cents/liter with absolutely no reason given other than that the oil companies want the money). Car ads are now talking MPG instead of HP again. SUV and pickup sales are tanking. People are buying things as ridiculous looking as the Smart Car because it gets 60 MPG. In short: People are suddenly skittish about fuel economy again. The psychological damage that $3.50/gallon gasoline did will last longer than the actual $3.50 gasoline did.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: slamedcat on December 07, 2005, 10:10:35 PM
Yes but the Honda you speak of will last longer than that Mustang GT or any other Domestic built product. As for inflation take a look at what a new chevy truck costs to make and how much it sells for. You are looking at a 200% profit. What do you think they are turning on the new mustnag for profit.
And by all means I don't think it costs $14,000. And probably 1k -2k of that is to pay the guys on the line to put it together. Another 2k for the engineers and all the pencil pushers.
Thats right around $10,000 for profit. Lets just say that inflation has gone up that much that your pinto of the 70's that cost 6K jumped to 10K during the 80's then to 14K in the 00's. Wheres my compensation for inflation.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: 20th anny 5.o on December 07, 2005, 10:18:37 PM
Here is your Next gen GTO ULGY looks more like a 04 accord than a GTO to me. Sorry about the py pic, i dont have a scanner and what can you expect from a hundred dollar camera.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 07, 2005, 11:00:46 PM
Quote from: slamedcat
Yes but the Honda you speak of will last longer than that Mustang GT or any other Domestic built product. As for inflation take a look at what a new chevy truck costs to make and how much it sells for. You are looking at a 200% profit. What do you think they are turning on the new mustnag for profit.
And by all means I don't think it costs $14,000. And probably 1k -2k of that is to pay the guys on the line to put it together. Another 2k for the engineers and all the pencil pushers.
Thats right around $10,000 for profit. Lets just say that inflation has gone up that much that your pinto of the 70's that cost 6K jumped to 10K during the 80's then to 14K in the 00's. Wheres my compensation for inflation.
Now add development costs, advertising costs, marketing reasearch, recalls, incentives, UAW deals, PR stunts.......... you catch my drift? They don't make 200% profit. They barely make a profit at all. That's why the domestic market is in trouble. There are still more GM vehicles being bought all over the world than any other major manufacturer, yet they are in the red.
Toyota lives on perceived quality, meaning people think they are better built than domestic marques because that's the buzz. Is it the truth? Ask J.D. Power and they'll tell you the truth. Most domestics are well above industry average, and directly on par with Honda and Toyota, with regards to # of problems per 100 vehicles sold. In fact, Lincoln, Buick and Caddy are in the top five. Above the two big threats from puppiesan.
p.s. The LS6 is the 454 found in Chevelles and the like. The LS2 is the new 6.0L in the Vette.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 07, 2005, 11:02:50 PM
Quote from: 20th anny 5.o
Here is your Next gen GTO ULGY looks more like a 04 accord than a GTO to me. Sorry about the py pic, i dont have a scanner and what can you expect from a hundred dollar camera.
I've seen that sketch. Look again at who penned those. No one from GM. It was an illustrator for that magazine. We still have no idea what the car will look like, since Holden hasn't even started designing it yet. (yup, Pontiac is leaving it in their hands again)
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: CougarSE on December 07, 2005, 11:10:49 PM
Quote
since Holden hasn't even started designing it yet. (yup, Pontiac is leaving it in their hands again)
Word has it that its going to be an american design this time. But those ausies love there holdens more than anything else. Holden wont change that car for a couple more years.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: t-bird85 on December 07, 2005, 11:12:07 PM
Actually I know the guys from LS1 tech they were leaked the photo's shortly after posting them on the forum the admin received an E-mail to remove them or be prosecuted.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Vantage08 on December 07, 2005, 11:13:53 PM
Hmm 2005 GTO...400HP....that's all i gotta say. lol
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 07, 2005, 11:33:49 PM
Quote from: CougarSE
Word has it that its going to be an american design this time. But those ausies love there holdens more than anything else. Holden wont change that car for a couple more years.
GM plans all-new Pontiac GTO Sales of 400-hp coupe take off July 28, 2005
BY MARK PHELAN FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER
General Motors Corp. will stop building the Australian version of its Pontiac GTO performance coupe later this year, but the U.S. model will remain in production at least through the 2006 model year, and an all-new model is in the works, a Pontiac spokesman said.
After a slow start in 2004, U.S. sales of the 400-horsepower GTO have taken off this year. Pontiac sold 87% more GTOs in the first half of 2005 than for the same period last year.
The car is based on the Australian Monaro coupe, which went into production in 2001. GM's Australian unit, Holden, will drop the Monaro this fall to concentrate on getting a new model of its higher-selling Commodore rear-drive sedan into production. The new Commodore goes into production in mid-2006.
The Monaro and GTO are built in the same plant in Elizabeth, near Melbourne.
The next-generation GTO will come from a new global family of rear-wheel-drive cars, Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson said.
GM insiders say that car's appearance will be more eye-catching than the somewhat anonymous GTO. The new model is likely to go into production in 2008 and will probably be built in Australia.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: slamedcat on December 07, 2005, 11:44:54 PM
Yes I see what you are saying but my point was if the cost of the vehicle went up due to inflation then I should then be able to buy the my vehicle of choice because then my pay would have gone up with it.
But my pay stays the same as everything else goes up in price. So the entire inflation thing id BS. But what you have said about advert cost and ect. makes more sence except for the fact that the engineering is now done accross the seas at a frastion of the cost as over here which means my job and others will be gone withing the next 20-30 years, plus the engineers are newer guys that arn't making as much, and one engineer can do more now than multiple engineers of yesterday. Belive me I know. I work with a guy that is making all the wire harnesses for the motorgrader cat tractors. Now you can't tell me he is making as much as his counterpart of yesterday. Pobably not considering he drives a mid 80's import and bitches about the same problems I have. No money after bills. Becasue the price of everything is going up and my pay isn't.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 08, 2005, 12:34:26 AM
Quote from: oldraven
p.s. The LS6 is the 454 found in Chevelles and the like. The LS2 is the new 6.0L in the Vette.
Actually, the LS6 is in the C5 Z06. The 454 might have been called an LS6 back in the 60's-70's, but GM is known for reusing their codes.
On the topic of inflation, it wouldnt be inflation if costs were rising and pay wasnt rising. Inflation is when costs rise, and pay does not.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 08, 2005, 08:06:26 AM
I like some things about the look and dislike some things as well. Kinda looks like what the Charger might have become if it were a 2 door. I think the tail lights are somewhat out of place. Either way it's yet another excuse for me to keep plugging away on overtime to supercharge the Mustang now that the Cougar is set.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: 50tbrd88 on December 08, 2005, 08:20:54 AM
Quote
Bottom line they need to see not everyone can afforg the cars they build and quite crying when profits are down and everyone is driving a Honda or Toyota.
I'd say they'll build it but make the same mistake of overpricing it. Hell I was just reading Motor Trend and GM has the new G6 GTP(i think thats is what it is called) priced higher than the Mustang GT. Granted it has a V8 but its fwd and looks pretty mundane styling wise. GM and Ford needs to focus on building affordable and classy cars again or everyone is going to be buying Hondas with Chevy emblems on 'em.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Mercoug302 on December 08, 2005, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
I dunno about that. The 4.6 is only just starting to come into its own. 300 horses N/A isn't bad for a 3-valve 281 CI engine, and the Cobra's underrated 390 horses ain't too shabby either, supercharged or not. Then there's the underrated 550 horses from the GT's 5.4. And the 450+ horses in the upcoming Shelby GT500. The modular engine family has loads of potential, and that potential is only just starting to be realized. This engine family has come a long, long way from the 190-horse Town Car engine of the early 90's and the 215 horse Mustang engine of the mid 90's.
Just think - in a few years the BASE Mustang will have a 250-horse V6. That is 25 horses more than were available to the beloved 5.0 (and a full 100 horses more than our 5.0 'Birds and Cougars), and only 10 short of the 99-04 GT. The GT now has 300 horses, almost as many as the top-of-the-line Cobra of a few years ago. And the last 390-horse Cobra had power never even heard of before in a stock Mustang. And hopefully in a few years GM and Chrysler will have comparable cars for sale.
Yes, the LS6 makes 400 horses, but the LS6 is also 6.0 liters. Yes, the LS7 makes 500 horses, but that LS7 is also 7.0 liters. GM makes horsepower with old school tech and cubic inches, Ford makes it with technology and supercharging. There is nothing wrong with either approach. The end result is that the horsepower war is far from over, the so-called glory days of muscle cars are only just beginning, and car enthusiasts, regardless of their brand loyalty, have some very compelling choices right now.
I always laugh at the whiners on both sides. Ford guys whine about GM's cubic inch advantage, GM guys whine about Ford's use of superchargers. Nobody seems to notice that both sides (and now Chrysler too) are producing the most exciting cars in 40 years.
As for that Camaro concept - love it. Anything that keeps the Mustang on its toes and the pony car segment relevant in general is a good thing. Who knows - now that the domestics are actually going to be producing interesting cars, maybe they'll get some market share back...
That may be true, however there is an air impracticality to the Ford side. Yes the 4.6 is a very potent motor with great technology. But it has been around for 15 years and you still can't build a sturdy one for less than 12,000.00. The LS1 came out 7 years after the 4.6L SOHC and 5 years after the DOHC. For all intents and purposes it was a brand new motor when it came out (0 parts interchangability with the SBC) and you can get all kinds of heads, cams, intakes, exhausts and SC's (and now even turbo's). There's no question as to which car sold better (z28's were outsold almost 3 to 1) but the chev's still warranted the aftermarket support. There are still close to zero aftermarket parts for the 4.6 only modified stock parts (except for cams, and even those were only available as modified stock parts until the last 2 or 3 years). I mean really, guys are going out and spending 3 to 4 thousand dollars for parts that their cars came with from the factory! Hell, I can go out and spend about 4K on my GTO and have an easy 430hp NA and still have a strong foundation to put a S/C on it. Anyone can get a 4.6L car and put a blower on it, but you'd better make sure you have another couple 4.6's in your garage to replace it with or a small fortune in the bank to build a forged one. Yes it's great that it makes the horsepower that it makes for only having 281 cubes, but I'm not at all thrilled with knowing that 300 hp is "as good as it gets" without being a millionare. Until the blue oval comes out with something new but practical (at least a forged 4.6L that doesn't require a $45,000 car around it), i'll stick with the LS1.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Haystack on December 08, 2005, 09:52:14 AM
hmm. I am curious what Paul is going to say about that. They could get more then 300hp out of it, they just dont want tol
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 08, 2005, 10:18:01 AM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
Actually, the LS6 is in the C5 Z06. The 454 might have been called an LS6 back in the 60's-70's, but GM is known for reusing their codes.
On the topic of inflation, it wouldnt be inflation if costs were rising and pay wasnt rising. Inflation is when costs rise, and pay does not.
I didn't know they reused the LS6 badge. Still, the C5 Z06 used a 5.7L. The 6.0L is the LS2, the 5.3L is the LS4, and the 7.0L is the LS7.
Also, the G6 (which has no GTP option, just sedan, coupe or vert.) only has a 3.5 or 3.9L V6. The Grand Prix GXP has the LS4.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Mercoug302 on December 08, 2005, 10:33:54 AM
Quote from: Haystack
hmm. I am curious what Paul is going to say about that. They could get more then 300hp out of it, they just dont want tol
Yes, but how much more? Right now the only available avenue is a SC or N20. Maybe with a conservative tune (super rich and all of the timing pulled out) you could get 400 hp out of it. But with a 4.6L, you're pretty much shortening your bottom end's lifespan by at least 50%.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 08, 2005, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: oldraven
I didn't know they reused the LS6 badge. Still, the C5 Z06 used a 5.7L. The 6.0L is the LS2, the 5.3L is the LS4, and the 7.0L is the LS7.
but its not 350 as the early blocks, its actually a 346, so it isnt exactly a 5.7, but whatever, no real difference
The LS6 is basically a top end swap, heads, intake, cam, and i believe thats it. Its been a long time since i had to think about anything LS1.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: kyle2ooo on December 08, 2005, 11:52:46 PM
i bet it be hard to drive that car cuz it looks like two different cars welded together!! hmm thanks mr obvious
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: shame302 on December 09, 2005, 12:45:44 AM
Quote
GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
two words..... buttstuff leakage...
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: CougarSE on December 09, 2005, 01:17:48 AM
did anyone notice the two interior shots are completely differn't?
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 09, 2005, 10:40:51 AM
Two words.
Preliminary design ........... sketches. Ok, so it was three words.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 09, 2005, 06:16:34 PM
The problem with the new 4.6 is the pistons themselves. A couple of motors have been granaded by guys running superchargers so far. In all cases the supercharger kits were jacked up way beyond the stock output they were designed for. These motors will handle 450HP AND last 100K....You just have to make sure you're giving it enough fuel so it don't starve!
Road and Track did a high speed comparison with a Vortech supercharged Mustang that had at the time about 200 Dyno floggings and then went down a runway and bounced off the redline limiter in top gear at 192 MPH(the computer then shut the motor down.) That was with a motor with stone stock internals that is STILL in one piece.
Stock manual transmission 300 HP Mustangs are dynoing around 270 HP at the wheels, ...... Auto's are seeing 260 or so
Manual transmission GTO's with 400 HP are seeing about 325 HP at the wheels. Is the GTO's output over-rated or the Mustang's under-rated? It's one or the other......
Is 6 liters a better start than 4.6? Yeah, of course. Is the 4.6 a weak motor? I don't believe so......My goal is a nice safe 410 HP at the wheels and I'm confident the internals will take more abuse then what I plan on doing.
Quote
I always laugh at the whiners on both sides. Ford guys whine about GM's cubic inch advantage, GM guys whine about Ford's use of superchargers. Nobody seems to notice that both sides (and now Chrysler too) are producing the most exciting cars in 40 years.
This is too true as well. You hit it on the head Thunder Chicken;)
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 09, 2005, 11:31:24 PM
Why is it every time GM brings back a muscle car they make it look ugly:yuck: ? Eh mabey they'll make it look better. As for the engine debate N/A or supercharged they still sound good, run like hell, and are fun to drive so who cares either way. But I think I'll still stick with my 5.0
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Mercoug302 on December 10, 2005, 08:14:21 AM
The 4.6L has always had weak pistons and ringlands since it was first introduced. Having owned 3 4.6L cars and seeing what happened to the motors of guys who put blowers on them, it was a chance that I was just not willing to take. You'd think that after this many years, they would've done something to make it semi power adder friendly (03' and '04 cobra motors aside). Whenever you put a power adder on a stock bottomed 4.6, you are always going to take a gamble. You don't have to put 10psi on it to grenade it either. It may happen immediately, it may happen years down the road, but it will break. There's a guy on the corral (I believe juiced46 was his name) who ran a 125 shot of N20 on his 1996 PI headswapped GT (125 shot on top of a 10.5:1 CR on stock bottom end) and had it going for more than 100,000 miles before it broke on a bottom end that already had 98,000 miles so you never know. But on the other hand, I watched in person an '04 marauder with only 5 psi break a ring land on the dyno. As far as power numbers are concerned, my '04 GTO makes 303 rwhp bone stock (mustang dyno, manual tranny) and I have one of the weak cars with the LS1. I have seen 352 from an '05 right off the showroom floor. 260-270 from an '05 stang is perfect for being rated at 300 hp (15% loss for auto, 13% loss for manual). You also have to remember that mustangs still have a solid axle opposed to the GTO's IRS (and trust me, that car squats like a mofookie). So 303hp with 13% added in makes 342hp, say the IRS robs another 2% and you have the 350 rated hp. So both cars are well within their power ratings from the rwhp they produce.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 10, 2005, 10:39:08 AM
Quote from: Mercoug302
The 4.6L has always had weak pistons and ringlands since it was first introduced.
This is true, I remember reading about the piston problem way back when the DOHC Mark VIII first came out, and again when the engine first found its way into Mustangs. Nothing a set of forged pistons couldn't fix, and from what I've heard the LS1/2/6 doesn't play nice with forced induction either with stock pistons because of its high compression.
With proper pistons a mod engine can handle plenty of power - just look at the power people are making with Lightnings and supercharged Cobras with bolt ons.
Ford didn't build the 4.6 for aftermarket supercharging because they'd really rather you bought your supercharged 4.6 from them ;)
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Mercoug302 on December 10, 2005, 10:54:42 AM
With proper pistons a mod engine can handle plenty of power - just look at the power people are making with Lightnings and supercharged Cobras with bolt ons.
I never said it couldn't, The 4.6L block is actually one of the most rugged and sturdy blocks ever produced as a ford V8. When I took my 88 down to ATL to get it tuned, I was the only pushrod guy there out of about 30 vehicles, all modulars. I had the largest displacement engine, and was the only person there who didn't put down at least 400 rwhp. I mean really, all of the cars (and trucks about 4 lighnings) were putting down 500hp here, 490 there, 600, there was a 700rwhp mark VIII and so on. I mean, it was REALLY embarrassing having a sweet sounding EFI 351 and only putting down 315rwhp after my tune. The 4.6 responds well to supercharging, it just doesn't live long unless you get a forged short (read: expensive). I can understand that Ford doesn't intend for you to modify the SOHC cars, but how many people actually leave their mustangs stock? As much of a Ford fan as I am, for the kind of change that is needed to build a solid 281, I'd rather just buy an LS1 car. True that the LS1's do have a higher CR but you are starting with more than 300hp and adding 5-6 psi on top of that will not pose problem and net some decent (reliable) numbers. Or you can just get some AFR heads, a nice cam and intake and make some nice power N/A.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: shame302 on December 10, 2005, 11:24:55 AM
guys put down 400-600 hp on a stock bottom end all the time. its all in the tune. you deffinetly need a nice safe rich tune. you can make your 400 rwhp all day long with a modular safely. for the cost of a reman longblock you can have a shop rebuild with forged pistons and you should be able too lean that tune and kick the boost up quite a bit. you dont HAVE too go too SHMS and spend 5-6k on their long block. they do get realy expensive when you start switching cams...cause theres 4 of them. the valve train is expensive and all the bolts are torque to yeild and cant be reused. they may not be better than a 5.0 but in my personal experiance...i like them better. the windsor 5.0 is out of production and the modulars have replaced them. NA the mach 1s reguarly put down nearly 300 rwhp when they are underrated at 305. this is with 281 NA cubes. its easy enough too get them too the 350 mark. thats impressive too me. how many of you are trying to put those numbers down with a 5.0? what if ford put shiznit pistons in the 5.0 HO from the factory? it would have the same limitations as the 4.6. thankfully they didnt but they very well could have and wed be haveing the same type of discussions about them. i hear all the time about how much the 4.6 dohc sucks because of the pistons and thats just ignorant. they are a great engine when a few little things are addressed... i dont know all that much about the chevy stuff. i know being somewhat of a "car guy" hobbiest, thats ignorant but i just dont have the interest. hell im only assuming they are still using push rods. more power too them, if it aint broke..dont fix it. i just dont think its the future.
my uncles got an 01 vette. 12k on the clock and its on its second engine because the other one used too much oil. apparently its rather common too see a quart and a half every 3k with that engine..wtf is that? and trust me this car is babied. i dunno...ive driven the car and its realy sweet but i still dont get excited about it like i would about a mustang........
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Mercoug302 on December 10, 2005, 11:40:24 AM
Again my experience:
There are only two real engines builder for the 4.6. One of them is FoMoCo, the other sure ain't SHM (heard way too many horror stories about him). I'm referring to Renagade Racing in Florida. His reputation is well known in the MOD world and well deserved. Unfortunately he is expensive and rightly so because you get what you pay for. Due to the 4.6's advanced design (tight tolerances) not just ANYONE can build one even with a shop manual. What needs to be understood is this:
until the '03 Cobra, the 4.6 never had forged pistons. Forged and hyperautectic pistons have very different rates of thermal expansion/contraction. To build a 4.6L with forged pistons using regular 4.6L clearances (and most builders aren't skilled enough to even get close to the factory spec) you're already headed in the wrong direction. The most you may get is 20,000 miles out of it before the pistons start to rock back and forth in the bores unless it was built by the right people. So you can't just go to any engine builder. Even the '03 cobras have this issue because they are the first cars with forged 4.6's and it hasn't been perfected yet (the pistons were spec'd too tight from the factory). Find me an engine builder who can put a forged 4.6L block together for less than $6,000 and have it be as durable as a factory Ford one and I'll be the first on their order list. Or if Edelbrock or AFR would make some nice SOHC heads (or even DOHC) I'll be looking through autotrader to get another 98 LSC to modify it. As far as running 400-600rwhp all day on stock internals, my view on that has already been stated. You are taking a gamble. I seriously doubt that an '03 mach one makes 300 rwhp stock. That means that the engine would have to make at least 340 bhp. I have never seen one dyno'd in person before, but I have seen a few marauders (exactly the same engine, slightly different exhaust) and that car makes 240rwhp on it's best day. I have put 6,000 miles on my GTO so far and have lost about 1/4 of a quart of oil and it was purchased with 10K miles. It also has 5 1/4 mile passes and 3 dyno pulls on it. You can't say that some engines don't leave the factory with defects (like the 2000-2001 Crown Vics that have camshafts that were breaking).
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 10, 2005, 11:58:11 AM
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the other sure ain't SHM. His reputation is well known in the MOD world and well deserved.
Well said! Even when you order basic parts from him they take forever to get to you!
600 HP on stock internals IS a gamble. For that matter putting forced induction on almost any motor that came from the factory without is a gamble. I just want 410. I'm right at 310 now....100 more SHOULD be no problem. If it is I'll just tear it apart and do forged internals. Then I'll go for that 600 HP.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: shame302 on December 10, 2005, 01:00:13 PM
its a gamble anytime you mod an engine. forced induction is always risky on even an overly built/prepped engine.
mach ones typically are putting down 280-290 ish too the rear wheels. 400 is very common and with a good tune, safe. with 600 being on the risky end. thats alot of power...but its been done many times.
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but I have seen a few marauders (exactly the same engine, slightly different exhaust)
the auto machs have basically the same engine. the 5 speed machs use a forged crank. the 5 speeds may be making up the differences in rwhp over the automatics. they are deffinetly under rated from the factory. i was using shm as an example like dss is to the windsor world......boss 330 is another (although they are a quality shop)....there are other builders out there specializing in the modular engines....alot of them have all kinds of marketing money and can afford too do the advertising as well as handle alot of work at the same time. a 4.6 forged buildup with headwork, aftermarket cams etc should hit the 6k mark but thats the high mark for basically a stock engine with better pistons. its carefull measuring machining and numbers...not magic. these engines have been around for almost 13 years now..there are plenty of reputible shops out there.
i myself would be happy with a mild bolt on 03-04 engine. i want 400-425 reliable hp. thats way more than enough. i dont want the heavy cast iron block so im passing on that. right now i have a 99 cobra engine. those are typically over rated at 320 but i expect 300 hp out of it at the crank. thats 2 times what my car has now and should be very reliable HP. if i didnt get such a great deal (cost about the same as the mark viii engine i was going too buy) i would have gone with a 5 speed mach 1 engine (imo the king of factory NA 4.6 engines). i still may later but i need too make sure i can get it all working in the car before spending all kinds of money on an engine.
its just my take on these motors...im joe knowbody. ive never even realy been elbow deep into a 5.0 short block for that matter. ive done what research i felt i needed too do and im confident in what i feel about them. its just the direction i choose.
im also not saying gm is ...clearly they are not. they have a huge part of the performance car movement of today. im excited about all the new stuff. dodge, chevy and ford all are building stuff that rivals the 60s and 70s...
im actually dissapointed in the new mustang. i think ford could have done better and i expected more. true its the fastest, or at least most powerfull factory mushtang gt yet but the interior is repulsive, even though its ergonomice are great. there finiky too mod, and they just need more time in the hands of builders too be anything like the earlier mustangs are. i do love how they fixed the side windows. its gonna suck what that fails though.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 10, 2005, 01:38:21 PM
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its gonna suck what that fails though.
You lost me here.....I have no idea what you mean....
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the interior is repulsive, even though its ergonomice are great
To be honest I find the ergonomics of my Cougar are more suited to my liking..... I like the Mustang's looks (shag on wheels IMHO!) and it feels very stable at highway speeds on long bends. It begs you to stab the throttle going into a turn.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: shame302 on December 10, 2005, 01:58:44 PM
they deffinetly drive great, handle well and have a nice ride. its a great car. the cars are awesom looking on the outside.but the interior ruins the car for me. stock, i cant say imo that they are better looking beacuse they are so much different looking compared too the 03 style mustangs. with a body kit they look amazing.
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You lost me here.....I have no idea what you mean....
for those that dont know... the sn95 mustangs dont have a full "frame" door. like say the turbo coupe. neither do the 05s. the glass is just floating and just sits next too the car when the windows are up. they are noisy and at higher speeds can kind of lift away from the car. ive always hated that about then. they sound rattly when you close them. the 05 fixed this problem, when the window is up and the door is closed the window sits in a channel by the roofline. when you pull the handle the window automatically drops something like a quarter of an inch out of that channel allowing you too open the door. its much less noisy and rattly. when you close the door the window goes up a little too lock itself inside that track so the glass doesnt "float".
i was just saying its going to suck when that feature fails with the door closed and the glass is locked in the up position inside that channel.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 10, 2005, 02:05:55 PM
Ahh OK I didn't know what you were taling about, I got it now
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when you pull the handle the window automatically drops something like a quarter of an inch out of that channel allowing you too open the door. its much less noisy and rattly. when you close the door the window goes up a little too lock itself inside that track so the glass doesnt "float".
From firsthand experience this does work nicely. I am concerned with what will happen when it one day ceases to work for me and A) The window is slightly open or B) I really screw up the channel.....
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Mercoug302 on December 10, 2005, 02:31:12 PM
Quote from: shame302
. . . ive never even realy been elbow deep into a 5.0 short block for that matter. ive done what research i felt i needed too do and im confident in what i feel about them. its just the direction i choose.
. . .
your research has done you well. Again, my stance is based on my experience. When I had my 1996 cougar I priced out many a hi-po SOHC build up with machiners that were reputable. I also did so with my 98 LSC and got nowhere basically when it came to a moderate buildup (that is actually one of the factors that lead me to selling that car). I actually do miss having a 4.6. But that 290hp just wasn't enough to satify my thirst for power, and I didn't want to risk possibly destroying the original engine of such a great car.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 10, 2005, 02:45:30 PM
Quote from: Paul Flockhart
Ahh OK I didn't know what you were taling about, I got it now
From firsthand experience this does work nicely. I am concerned with what will happen when it one day ceases to work for me and A) The window is slightly open or B) I really screw up the channel.....
Or C) the window is frozen shut. Windows freeze all the time, so what's gonna happen when one freezes shut with this system? Is the door not gonna open?
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 10, 2005, 03:46:47 PM
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Or C) the window is frozen shut. Windows freeze all the time
With others....yes with mine no....Garage Queen!:D
It is a valid point though. I'm curious to hear about what happens. I don't want to experience it myself.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 10, 2005, 10:29:48 PM
So, how 'bout that Camaro?:rolleyes:
Could someone make a 4.6 Mod reliability thread please?
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: V8Demon on December 10, 2005, 11:04:23 PM
Sorry for the Hijack.....Like I said before kinda cool rendition if it is indeed the final look.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: shame302 on December 10, 2005, 11:52:01 PM
im done talkin about it...sorry bout the hijack....chevy stuff was getting boring......lol, jk
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: P71 on December 13, 2005, 01:56:27 AM
Shows you how much intrest is in the Maro. Chevy boards are talking more about the Challenger. I think GM has already lost...
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 13, 2005, 10:15:30 AM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports
Shows you how much intrest is in the Maro. Chevy boards are talking more about the Challenger. I think GM has already lost...
What Chevy boards are you on?
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: P71 on December 13, 2005, 08:38:59 PM
ls1tech and ls1gto. ALL the GM sites (CamaroZ28, ls1tech, etc) had to take down the pics (I think yours are the only ones left on the internet). All the talk broke down into a bunch of whining over the IRS and how the kid's drawings from Popular Hot Rodding looked 1000 times better and why GM are jerks for making them take the pictures off. Also Scott Settlmire (sic) had told the Editor's of HMM and Hot Rod that the new car would not be retro. It would have styling "cues" from all the previous gens. The pics basically show a Camaro version of the Stang. Far more people are talking about Dodge releasing pics of it's 425 HP Challenger and the production Shelby. Basically, nobody is going to get excited until the Jan NAIAS when the real deal is displayed, and not the clay car. It's basically a non-topic already.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 13, 2005, 10:32:04 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports
ls1tech and ls1gto. ALL the GM sites (CamaroZ28, ls1tech, etc) had to take down the pics (I think yours are the only ones left on the internet). All the talk broke down into a bunch of whining over the IRS and how the kid's drawings from Popular Hot Rodding looked 1000 times better and why GM are jerks for making them take the pictures off. Also Scott Settlmire (sic) had told the Editor's of HMM and Hot Rod that the new car would not be retro. It would have styling "cues" from all the previous gens. The pics basically show a Camaro version of the Stang. Far more people are talking about Dodge releasing pics of it's 425 HP Challenger and the production Shelby. Basically, nobody is going to get excited until the Jan NAIAS when the real deal is displayed, and not the clay car. It's basically a non-topic already.
The pics are open season now. GM has dropped all attempts at keeping them hidden, since everyone and their dog has seen them now.
GMI and a GM truck board I'm on are still talking this into the ground.
Anyway, the difference between the Camaro and the others is how retro they are willing to go. Ford went extremelly retro, pretty much making a '67 with modern fit and proportions. Dodge made an all out replica. Too retro, in my opinion. I think this will actually lower the value of classic Challengers. Why spend the large on a car that probably needs restoration, when you could have the same car, just with a perfect body, better build, and modern powertrain. GM went modern with some retro cues. I wouldn't call this as much of a retro car as the other two.
But I agree, this model is still in the design phase, so we could see an entirely different car come Detroit.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: P71 on December 14, 2005, 01:35:36 AM
Actually, check out ls1tech (obviously the originator of the pics) and z28camaro, etc. and you'll see the pics have ALL been pulled OFF. GM is VERY serious about trying to minimize the exposure of them, especially on the main Camaro boards. (I kinda used to own one, so I hang out there) It's more retro than the Mustang, the car basically looks like a 68 with a 69 grill and 70 taillights. They actually like the Challenger idea better (if you're going to go retro, just give us the old car!). The Camaro has ALWAYS been a forward car though so ALOT of guys are against any retro at all. They'd rather see a C6 Vette-like re-do of the 2002 Camaro. Of course, a few mags are still swearing GM isn't going to make it. Rumor mill is the next gen GTO will have a Chevy variant called Chevelle. Apparntly there is STILL some dispute with the Canucks and the St. Loraine and the name, IIRC. Anyways, since GM put the ka-bosh on the pics, it's turned into a guess-fest as to the NAIAS car will look like.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 14, 2005, 10:01:46 AM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports
Actually, check out ls1tech (obviously the originator of the pics) and z28camaro, etc. and you'll see the pics have ALL been pulled OFF. GM is VERY serious about trying to minimize the exposure of them, especially on the main Camaro boards. (I kinda used to own one, so I hang out there) It's more retro than the Mustang, the car basically looks like a 68 with a 69 grill and 70 taillights. They actually like the Challenger idea better (if you're going to go retro, just give us the old car!). The Camaro has ALWAYS been a forward car though so ALOT of guys are against any retro at all. They'd rather see a C6 Vette-like re-do of the 2002 Camaro. Of course, a few mags are still swearing GM isn't going to make it. Rumor mill is the next gen GTO will have a Chevy variant called Chevelle. Apparntly there is STILL some dispute with the Canucks and the St. Loraine and the name, IIRC. Anyways, since GM put the ka-bosh on the pics, it's turned into a guess-fest as to the NAIAS car will look like.
This is what I was told. "The ban's been lifted by GM..... well, not lifted, but they're saying that their main priority is no longer fighting the pictures themselves, but focusing more on who leaked them."
Anyway, that's not important. The St. Loraine issue is already gone, since the plant was flattened. You can't build a car in a dirt lot. The Chevelle rumor came from Lutz's blog, about a half a year ago. The majority of auto mags (reputable ones anyway) are expecting to see the Camaro in a month. I'm with them.
Honestly, I don't care if it ends up looking retro or evolutionary. As long as it happens, and with the chassis shown here. IRS and a field of engines to chose from. I'm guessing 3.6L (LaCrosse/Alure DOHC VVT) base/RS, LS4 Z28, and LS2 SS. Even if it's a Chevelle, I'll just be glad to see a Chevy for our demographic.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: P71 on December 14, 2005, 10:11:40 AM
It looks like the the CTS-V's rear suspesion, which will handle the power no problem. As long as they make a LSx motor and a manual trans, the "high end" one will sell. They really need to get the base model spot-on though, I hope they use that LaCrosse V6. GM needs to keep the price competitve with the Stang as well. I can't wait for the NAIAS. The Shelby production GT500, the 07 Challenger, and the 08 Camaro concept will all be there. There's also rumour of a VW Corrado Turbo and Toyata Supra Turbo to compete with the Nissan GTR.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 14, 2005, 11:42:53 AM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports
It looks like the the CTS-V's rear suspesion, which will handle the power no problem. As long as they make a LSx motor and a manual trans, the "high end" one will sell. They really need to get the base model spot-on though, I hope they use that LaCrosse V6. GM needs to keep the price competitve with the Stang as well. I can't wait for the NAIAS. The Shelby production GT500, the 07 Challenger, and the 08 Camaro concept will all be there. There's also rumour of a VW Corrado Turbo and Toyata Supra Turbo to compete with the Nissan GTR.
The price point is a good one. Which means they very well may not use the DOHC unit and would likely go with the cheaper 3.5L pushrod. Still. That's 211hp vs 210hp. If they keep the weight down, that will put the Chevy on par with the base Mustang. Not that hp has anything to do with the decision, for those who would buy the V6.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: cougrrr302 on December 14, 2005, 11:13:45 PM
IMHO this whole retro-styling new age muscle cars is a joke. The mustang does resemble the 67-70 a little bit. I am big into 60s and 70s muscle cars and if you study the lines the 05 stang looks nothing like the old ones. There are way to many curves for my taste and the tailights need to be pushed in the middle not pushed out. The new Challenger sketches are perfect. That is a car worthy of the name Challenger especially if it has to live up to a 70s muscle car reputation. (http://tinypic.com/ims3sx.jpg)
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: oldraven on December 15, 2005, 10:03:40 AM
I prefer the modern identities of the new Mustang and Camaro (sketches). Making an all out replica shows ZERO imagination on Chryslers part, and feeds the 'stuck in the past' beef people have with the former big three.
I think it's cool as hell, but I wish they had gone modern with some heritage cues, like Ford and Chevy did.
Title: GM leaks Camaro concept sketches
Post by: P71 on December 15, 2005, 07:33:12 PM
Chrysler already did the new design thing on the 300, Magnum, and Charger. And what did people yell? Make us an exact copy! So that's what they're doing. I could really care less about the Shelby, new SS, or whatever else comes out. I WILL buy one of those Challengers. That car is shag on wheels, and for somebody like me that can't afford an actual muscle car, it's perfect. I think they will sell every last one they make. I'll be getting a Black/Black 425 HP SRT/6Speed version the day it's available to order. Chrysler will actually price it reasonably unlike Chevy. (Though I do have to admit, the 400HP GTO at $33K is a STEAL. I almost bought one twice now. Then I saw the Challenger pics and it was over).