General => General Fox T-Bird/Cougar Discussion => Topic started by: cougarpower51 on November 15, 2005, 01:51:40 PM
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: cougarpower51 on November 15, 2005, 01:51:40 PM
I found this http://www.forbes.com/columnists/2005/11/15/ford-backseat-driver-cz_jf_1115flint.html?partner=yahootix
"Today, Mercury needs a version of the Focus and Mustang. The new Mustang is so successful that the company can't build enough cars in the plant it shares with Mazda. So why not move its Mazda production to puppiesan and devote the entire plant to Mustangs and Mustang derivatives? "
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 15, 2005, 02:10:35 PM
A merc version of the focus i would agree with, but the mustang needs to be its own ennity. Be like chevy make a GMC version of the Corvette. Prices will drop and would not be considered as "special". Also being Mercury is a higher line than the Ford line, the car would have to fall into that scale and be nicer than the Mustang. Bad business Idea in terms of the mustang but a great idea for the focus.
Making Mazda in puppiesan a great Idea.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: oldraven on November 15, 2005, 02:36:14 PM
Quote from: t-bird85
Making Mazda in puppiesan a great Idea.
Nope. Not for Mazda or Ford. If you want to sell a car in a market, it's a lot cheaper to build it in that market. If Ford wants to keep using Mazda parts (which I think is a bonus for Ford) again, it's cheaper to build those parts at home than import them.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: cougarpower51 on November 15, 2005, 02:38:14 PM
Well just imagine the cougar revival on the mustang platform like always heres and example
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Haystack on November 15, 2005, 02:42:09 PM
I dont think that he means a copy of the mustang. Imagine if the mustang had competition inside of ford. Then the mustang would be better one week, and the capri(or cougar, but capri of something like that would be put above the name of a former gutless heavy euro import fighter) would be faster the next. Take the corvette and the camero. Both fine cars, but they have virtally identical engines, as well as compairable suspensions. The corvette is still on top, but the camero is a good cheaper solution, while still being chevy, and still can be faster then the corvette. People buy cars for the names more then anything. an optionless camero might not be quite as fast as the corvette, but that isnt why people buy the corvette? They buy it because it says corvette. just like the newer tbirds. No one really cared for them(I am gonna get flammed for that)unless they are really old or worshiped the old tbirds. What ford needs are new ideas. rather then trying to sell the mustang on the name and the 60'sretro look, they should refine and over power the mustang. The corvette and z06 camero are near 500hp, and anyone can go up at any time and buy one.Vs the mustang SVT versions. Even the colbra's arent that much diffrent from a regular mustang.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 15, 2005, 02:56:40 PM
Quote from: Haystack
Take the corvette and the camero. Both fine cars, but they have virtally identical engines, as well as compairable suspensions.
The corvette and z06 camero are near 500hp, and anyone can go up at any time and buy one.Vs the mustang SVT versions. Even the colbra's arent that much diffrent from a regular mustang.
I have yet to see a Camaro with 500 Hp stock and the suspension in the vette is much stouter than the Camaro. Ford is having a hard enough time rivaling is competitors much less with in its own walls, I agree with the Focus clone, but look at Dodge the worse thing they could have done was release the Charger on the Magmum Frame, same for pontiac witht he GTO. The cars are not original anymore and looks like they companies are just throwing what they can out there to get sales.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Sick88Tbird on November 15, 2005, 03:02:32 PM
Quote from: Haystack
The corvette and z06 camero are near 500hp, and anyone can go up at any time and buy one.Vs the mustang SVT versions. Even the colbra's arent that much diffrent from a regular mustang.
Umm...okay? Base model vette is rated at 400hp, the Z06 is rated for 505hp and there is no more camaro. The upcoming SVT Mustang will bear the Shelby name and have, according to Ford, "at least 450hp". 300HP is the most any standard mustang has ever come with, so it's definitely not underpowered.
I loved that example of a possible Cougar Eliminator, I think it's a great idea...although they could stand to deviate a little more from the appearance of the Mustang.
BTW...the most equal GM competitor to the 'Stang right now is the GTO. Now I don't know about the new 6.0L goats, but in the first year with the 5.7, they were slugs, Hot Rod magazine slapped on a a magnusson supercharger gained nothing in the acceleration dept.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Tbird232ci on November 15, 2005, 03:14:42 PM
Quote from: Haystack
Take the corvette and the camero. Both fine cars, but they have virtally identical engines, as well as compairable suspensions.
Not even close bro. The Vette and the camaro share nothing more than an LS based engine, they used the same LS1 engine, but the vette got more power, then the LS6 came in the ZO6 which was even more badass
the vette and camaro use totally different platforms, the vette is a 2 seater, fully independant suspension car, the actual gearbox is in the rear of the car, using a "torque tube" to transfer power from the engine to the rear, rather than a traditional driveshaft
they handle nothing like eachother, they arnt nearly as fast as eachother, and theyre two way different cars
the way GM was able to do what it did, was they use the f-body (camaro/firebird) to compete with the mustang, and other midsized sports cars, and leave the vette to the sports car enthusiasts (or mid life crisis buyers) who dont have kids, or dont need to lug kids around, buy groceries, or do anything with the car, where as most f-body owners used their cars as daily drivers, where they need backseat space, and some trunk space
what ford needs to do is use at least a detuned version of the mustang, something still practical, can stand up to some spirited driving, decently quick, and sell that under both ford and mercurys name, there are some of us in the younger crowd, we'll say 20-30, who have kids, but dont want the uber luxury car, but couldnt use an actual sports car, something embetween would be great, similar to our beloved tbirds and cougars
if ford was slick, and did something like that, they could also leak it to magazines, and then open a line of performance parts, that are nothing more than just stock mustang parts with a ford racing part number
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Tbird232ci on November 15, 2005, 03:16:56 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird
BTW...the most equal GM competitor to the 'Stang right now is the GTO. Now I don't know about the new 6.0L goats, but in the first year with the 5.7, they were slugs, Hot Rod magazine slapped on a a magnusson supercharger gained nothing in the acceleration dept.
theres guys slapping STS turbo kits on those, and with other basic mods, turning 11 second times
problem with those is the people who want to go fast that arnt car enthusiasts never learn that its an LS1 in the cars...and just kinda go "i cant find anything for my GTO, ill put a supercharger on it"
heads, cam, exhaust, intake, and a throttle body, and it could easily churn 400hp and still be drivable
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Thunder Chicken on November 15, 2005, 04:52:01 PM
Quote
A merc version of the focus i would agree with, but the mustang needs to be its own ennity. Be like chevy make a GMC version of the Corvette. Prices will drop and would not be considered as "special". Also being Mercury is a higher line than the Ford line, the car would have to fall into that scale and be nicer than the Mustang. Bad business Idea in terms of the mustang but a great idea for the focus.
Actually, a Mercury version of the Mustang would be a fantastic idea that would inject some much needed passion into the Mercury lineup. It's been done before with success - the Cougar and the Capri. It would also give Merc the opportunity to build a modern looking car on the platform, giving Ford the retro market and Merc the modern one, on the same car.
And saying that's like a GMC Corvette is just silly - it's more like a Pontiac Camaro, which as I'm sure you're aware, existed for more than 30 years and was known as a Firebird. In fact, there were several examples of Firebirds that were faster than any contemprary Camaro counterpart, such as the 73-74 SD455 Trans Am, the T/A 6.6 from 1976-1980, and the 1989 20th anniversary turbo Trans Am.
The Goat was not a failure because it was a Pontiac clone of a Chevy, it was a failure because it was a spectacularly boring looking car, and its $35k proce didn't help it any. 400 horses are fine and well, but if the car looks like a Cavalier coupe it's not going to ignite many fires. The Charger/300/Magnum is not a failure at all, but if its sales are slipping recently it's merely because the novelty of a V8, RWD sedan is wearing off, not because you can buy one from Chrysler or Dodge. In essence, most of the people that wanted a 300/Charger/Magnum have bought one, so it's only natural that sales will recede. It will happen with the Mustang as well, just like it did to the Beetle, Thunderbird, Mini, PT Cruiser, etc... - when you aim at a niche market, you're aiming at a market with a very finite number of sales.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: 5.0willgo on November 15, 2005, 05:02:48 PM
I really don't think having a car share a platform between Ford and Mercury would be bad. Well it can't be because isn't that what they've been doing all these years?
Mercury needs something exciting in it's lineup. Many of us including myself have posted this point before.
Do I think a Mercury variant of the Mustang would hurt Mustang sales?... NO!! Just as Thunder Chicken said about the Charger/Magnum, most people who want the retro styled Mustang already have one. I see so many now that it's rediculous and I'm sure the novelty of the retro styled hot rod will wear off soon. Mercury needs something to ignite the desires of those who want a modern day American sports car that isn't a mirror image of the Mustang. End of story.
I"ve aboout had enough of the new Mustang. Can we have something different please...
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 15, 2005, 05:05:20 PM
Now a revamped Cougar would be the way to go, but as in the past clone it after the Thunderbird, The Mustang is Unique to ford and to start throwing out clones is a mistake, The Pontiac GTO was not cloned after a chevy it was cloned after another Pontiac the Grand Prix. People buy Mustangs to own a mustang becasue there isnt another vehicle like it, like the Vette. When someone say Ford in respect to performance most people think Mustang, Say Chevy you think the Corvette, you throw a clone in there and it just diminishes the vehicle, Like the camaro/firebird,
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Tbird232ci on November 15, 2005, 05:15:06 PM
Quote from: t-bird85
The Pontiac GTO was not cloned after a chevy it was cloned after another Pontiac the Grand Prix.
Its actually a Holden Monero, an australian GM
Quote
you throw a clone in there and it just diminishes the vehicle, Like the camaro/firebird,
how did it deminish the vehicle? it existed for 30 years, and is still a desirable car, its just discontinued
if you go by that route, are the thunderbirds and cougars deminished because they are the same car? Not one bit, someone might have gotten into a tbird sport, loved the feel of it, but thought it was too "immature" of a look, then got directed over to an XR7
its using the same platform to suit two different crowds, similar to the camaro and firebird, the camaro was more in your face while the firebird was sleek and more stylish
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 15, 2005, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
if you go by that route, are the thunderbirds and cougars deminished because they are the same car? Not one bit, someone might have gotten into a tbird sport, loved the feel of it, but thought it was too "immature" of a look, then got directed over to an XR7
My opinion yes, The T-bird/COugar was hindered by the other, I own my t-bird because its unique the only reason its unique cause there were so many most ended up in junkyards do to abuse. they were cheap to own and cheap to replace but not individual enought at the time to fix. The longevity of the camaro should tell you something, there is no definate answer from GM on its return except for maybe in 2007 and no design Ideas released at this time the 2007 manufacturing starts next year think they would acknowledge something, the mustang Is holding strong and no plans of its dismissal. Think this would be the case if they made clones I dont. Being the only one it's harder to finde replacement and more expensive and more people will take care of these vehicles. Unlike to camaro/firebird, t-bird/cougar.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 15, 2005, 05:27:02 PM
BTW i think this is a very good thread and a very good topic ;)
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Cougars 2 go on November 15, 2005, 05:31:57 PM
Quote from: cougarpower51
I found this http://www.forbes.com/columnists/2005/11/15/ford-backseat-driver-cz_jf_1115flint.html?partner=yahootix
"Today, Mercury needs a version of the Focus and Mustang. The new Mustang is so successful that the company can't build enough cars in the plant it shares with Mazda. So why not move its Mazda production to puppiesan and devote the entire plant to Mustangs and Mustang derivatives? "
Ok, so at least I'm not alone in my concerns. I'm not so quick to agree with their Mustang article though.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: hundred_dollar_5.0_t-bird on November 15, 2005, 05:36:30 PM
was someone bashing capris earlyer ? i hope not because they are an underdog . my dad just happens to be the origanl owner of a 1986 capri RS 5.0 . i dont know what it is about these cars but ive been in that car with my dad and blew the doors off ove mustang GT's and just about any other car that he raced drag and through the moutains ... any ways thats about it for my being pissd off about my bird being smashed up ... mercury should bring back the capri
Z
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: 5.0willgo on November 15, 2005, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
Not one bit, someone might have gotten into a tbird sport, loved the feel of it, but thought it was too "immature" of a look, then got directed over to an XR7
Are you implying that Cougars are old manish?:giggle:
Quote from: t-bird85
My opinion yes, The T-bird/COugar was hindered by the other, I own my t-bird because its unique the only reason its unique cause there were so many most ended up in junkyards do to abuse. they were cheap to own and cheap to replace but not individual enought at the time to fix. The longevity of the camaro should tell you something, there is no definate answer from GM on its return except for maybe in 2007 and no design Ideas released at this time the 2007 manufacturing starts next year think they would acknowledge something, the mustang Is holding strong and no plans of its dismissal. Think this would be the case if they made clones I dont. Being the only one it's harder to finde replacement and more expensive and more people will take care of these vehicles. Unlike to camaro/firebird, t-bird/cougar
I really don't think the cost of a car nor having two similar cars amount to a hill of beans as to how someone takes care of it. The majority of Roll Royce's I've seen are in really sad shape due to neglect. The revolution of the Corvette in the 80's allowed the first real dependable corvette that was driven on a daily basis and most show that. There are also cheap cars that are driven into the ground such as neons however I did happen to see one that was mint the other day and you could tell the person really loved their car. That all depends on the individual not the expendability of the car.
Our cars are inexpensive now but when they were new, no. I know if I was in the market for a new car in '88, a cougar like I have now would be out of my price range. I don't own my car because it's unique in any way. I own it because it depreciated so much that a high school kid with a little bit of money could get one that was top of the line. That and I think it's cool.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: NorCalAeroCoupe on November 15, 2005, 08:47:56 PM
I'm not sure of this but, I thought I read about the eventual demise of the Merc as a brand. Similar to the fate of the Oldsmobile as a marque. In these days of corp. profits etc. Again not sure where or when I read it. I read an awful lot of s**t during the course of the year both auto and business related. It may have been a what if scenario but, it wouldn't surprise me.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: cougarpower51 on November 15, 2005, 10:25:01 PM
I think there will pass along time before we see the camaro back because things for GM are not looking to good in the near future and in 2 weeks I have seen changes from 2 years prediction of GM going bankrupt to 6 months from now.:flip:
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: V8Demon on November 15, 2005, 10:39:44 PM
Quote
The upcoming SVT Mustang will bear the Shelby name
Negative on that http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000970067034/
Hopefully the new 3.5 that is to be released will get a performace version and put in a relatively lightweight car with enough room that it is practical for everyday use. http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=5621
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 15, 2005, 11:25:39 PM
Quote from: Paul Flockhart
Negative on that http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000970067034/ (http://"http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000970067034/")
Hate to contradict you but this is fords offical SVT site, Mustang SHelby cobra gt500, GT40 and and sport trak adreneline. are the line up for 2006
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: V8Demon on November 15, 2005, 11:47:10 PM
You're correct They are gonna drop the COBRA part of the name....sorry reading too fast before
http://www.muscularmustangs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=352 From the site above....
Quote
The Cobra is dead! According to Robert Lane at BON Ford is dropping the Cobra name from the "Shelby Cobra GT500". The car will now be refered to as the "Mustang Shelby GT500". Although the name is being dropped the GT500 will still have Cobra logos oddly enough
There are others too.... http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=518 http://www.clubcobra.com/t69384.html
And this one seems to be the first leak of such info: http://thegt500source.com/2005/articles/shelbyincobraout05nov.html
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Ifixyawata on November 16, 2005, 12:46:34 AM
C'mon, if Ford never shared platforms then all you Cougar people would be stuck with something that sucked and the T-bird would rule you all.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: kyle2ooo on November 16, 2005, 01:32:43 AM
no way the COOG is the best thing that ever happened to the thunderhawk
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Ifixyawata on November 16, 2005, 01:40:31 AM
I'm betting the T-bird was released first.
PS - T-bird's rule Cougar ass anyway.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 16, 2005, 01:49:42 AM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
Actually, a Mercury version of the Mustang would be a fantastic idea that would inject some much needed passion into the Mercury lineup. It's been done before with success - the Cougar and the Capri. It would also give Merc the opportunity to build a modern looking car on the platform, giving Ford the retro market and Merc the modern one, on the same car.
In essence, most of the people that wanted a 300/Charger/Magnum have bought one, so it's only natural that sales will recede. It will happen with the Mustang as well, just like it did to the Beetle, Thunderbird, Mini, PT Cruiser, etc... - when you aim at a niche market, you're aiming at a market with a very finite number of sales.
I'm doubting the Stangs sales will decline much if any at all... Why?? The Stang is a well established model with a loyal following. Yea its retro, but not to the degree that limits its disireability. I do agree that a more contemporary version would be a great thing for Mercury. Yea it would probably steal a little from the Stang, but increase sales overall.
Quote from: hundred_dollar_5.0_t-bird
was someone bashing capris earlyer ? i hope not because they are an underdog . my dad just happens to be the origanl owner of a 1986 capri RS 5.0 . i dont know what it is about these cars but ive been in that car with my dad and blew the doors off ove mustang GT's and just about any other car that he raced drag and through the moutains ... any ways thats about it for my being pissd off about my bird being smashed up ... mercury should bring back the capri
Any stock Capri is just a slightly reskinned Mustang, no more, no less. If your dads is whipping up on Stangs, then either it ain't stock or the Stangs weren't really racing....
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: kyle2ooo on November 16, 2005, 02:02:50 AM
no way the coog was always around i mean come on in the jungle and stuff whats a thunderbiod anyways
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Ifixyawata on November 16, 2005, 03:13:12 AM
If you're going to take the argument that far, then I guess you win. But as far as cars go:
T-bird's are better.
That is all. Sorry to turn this into a T-bird vs Cougar debate.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Spaz02 on November 16, 2005, 05:02:13 AM
The cougar was originally introduced as an upscale mustang and the thunderbird was originally introduced as a 2 seater sports car which was ford's answer to the vette. Since the stang is somewhat returning to it's original looks and the thunderbird has, why not do the same for the cougar and make it an upscale version of the stang.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 16, 2005, 07:21:21 AM
The Mercury Cougar was introduced in 1967 as the more upscale version of the Ford Mustang. It had more mature styling and upscale interior appointments and rode on a three inch longer wheelbase than the Mustang. The T-bird was introduced in 1955
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: oldraven on November 16, 2005, 10:25:52 AM
Quote from: t-bird85
The longevity of the camaro should tell you something, there is no definate answer from GM on its return except for maybe in 2007 and no design Ideas released at this time the 2007 manufacturing starts next year think they would acknowledge something, the mustang Is holding strong and no plans of its dismissal.
Perhaps they watched Ford release designs for the Mustang too many times and too long before launch. GM has always had problems keeping some of its new designs under wraps. Perhaps they've found a way to keep this one hidden, since it would be a very large market vehicle right now.
As for the Corvette being on its own platform, I think you're forgetting about the XLR.
And finally, the Thunderbird comes from Hyda legend, and has been around far longer than we can ever know. And a Thunderbird would eat a Cougar like it was an appetizer. It creates storms. What's a Cougar do, besides hang out in seedy bars, Jonesin for a young buck?
;)
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Chuck W on November 16, 2005, 10:59:36 AM
My question is...why is anyone worried if Ford/Mercury is going to bring back anything just to resurrect the name? Do you think Ford cares about what us oddballs that insist on idolizing a 20 year old vehicle think? Do you think even if they did it would be an "affordable" vehicle? Why would they produce a "cheap" no-frills Mustang for the younger set? The way they see it, the "kids" want FWD and sporty.....so they have the Focus. Why infringe on that market and make less margin on the low-buck Mustangs? They need to stop recycling names....esp ones with too much heritage behind them. Stop thinking in the past on move on. Leave it to the fans and enthusiasts to keep the dream that is Thunderbird, Cougar or Mustang alive...don't work yourself into a corner. Don't try an emulate a past icon and wrap it in a "modern" package, it just fails. Do something new and do it well.
I actually like the looks of the new Zephyr...needs a different name though, but hey. Too bad it's FWD. It will be better with the new 3.5 and AWD though.
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: EricCoolCats on November 16, 2005, 11:08:22 AM
But people want hope. It would be nice to have a real, new Cougar because that could possibly increase the values (and demand) for our cars. And we all want to be winners, let's face it. Not to mention, Cougar was Mercury's flagship for 3 decades. It's a very strong name tied to Mercury's heritage. And in the end, it could be the nameplate that finally brings back customers to the L-M showroom. And isn't that what Ford needs right now?
What Ford needs is a GOOD RWD coupe to complement the Mustang. A Cougar based on the Mustang is too logical of a choice. That's why people are hanging onto hope.
You're much more of a realist, Chuck. ;)
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Chuck W on November 16, 2005, 11:57:19 AM
Oh, I'm not debating it's a "logical" choice, but enthusiast's logic is different from the Big 3's logic. I guess I'm just one who likes the cars for their lines and the simplicity of the platform. I don't see how an new Cougar or Tbird is going to help things any for us. It's not like the platform is even being used anymore. Powertrain-wise it's interesting, but that's all that would really matter to me. Also, like I mentioned, I almost think trying to use the heritage of a nameplate is not the best in some instances. Anything other than a Mustang platform-based, luxo-performance coupe with the balls to back it up would not even fit the bill. They've almost niched themselves right out of that market with the Cobras...which is what the other car would directly oppose on the high-end...*shrug*
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Haystack on November 16, 2005, 02:46:54 PM
I say they just play out a supercharger car. It would sell, even if it looked like ass and wasent that fast
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: Thunder Chicken on November 16, 2005, 03:59:28 PM
The one problem I can think of with the new Mustang is this: How do you update a car that apes classic design? Sure, the Fox Mustang was essentially unchanged for 14 years, but you would never get away with that now. In three or four years people are gonna start wanting a new Mustang, so what will Ford give them? Perhaps a rehash of the 71-73 design?
Personally, the only way that any current car will affect me is 15 years from now when I can buy one for $500. 'Round about 2020 I should finally have that 2005 Magnum wagon I've been wanting :D
Title: I wish Ford reads this
Post by: t-bird85 on November 16, 2005, 04:03:06 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken
Personally, the only way that any current car will affect me is 15 years from now when I can buy one for $500. 'Round about 2020 I should finally have that 2005 Magnum wagon I've been wanting :D