I went 2 get front brakes done and my spring popped out. I have gone to this mechanic forever. When i went to pick the car up today the front end was sitting way up high. My rear end has 2.5 inches between the top of the wheel and the wheel well, the front now has 4.5 inches, the front is sitting just over 2 inches higher than the rear. He says its the right spring and 2 give it a week to see if they settle down?????? the last time i had springs done they looked fine as soon as they were installed. Did my mechanic mess up?? I believe i counted 9 coils in the springs.
But as the front end is, it looks like , way too high. He said we might have to cut some coiles off the spring? And of course ford doesnot carry the factory spring any longer??
Does anybody have any part numbers of the correct springs for any aftermarket brands or know how many coils there are suppose to be in the springs.
And how much clearance is there suppose to be on the front end between the tire and wheel well on an 88 sport modle?? I thought it was the same at the rear 2.5 inches
Thanks
Jeff
no real mechanic would ever suggest this.
so you have a sport.... the rear sounds okay. there shouldnt be that much of a differance. he could have used the wrong spring i guess. are they seating properly? got any pics?
the spring may not be sitting in the control arm correctly. the end of the coil may need to be rotated into place, that would lift the front over an inch. and depending on the new spring isolators they may also lift it up some
It is an 88 sport modle. I trust my mechanic somewhat, the springs do seem to be in correctly. I got the part # off him and it ended in 8658, this site says the factory ones as CS8658 for the sport modle, perhaps the generic company messed up on the springs delivered in the box?
If i were to go aftermarket and lower the car a bit, what would be a good choice without haveing to do the rears as well??
Jeff
how did the spring pop out if he was doing brakes?
Here are the pics of my problem
When he put the car on the hoist and the suspension rested the sping was broke in 2 and was twisting out of its resting spot, i saw it, it had 2 come out.
DUde!! wtf! is he going to fix it?
He said to give it a few days to see if it settles, the he suggested cutting them down to the right height. He still says it was the right part from the supplyer.
I bet you had a low sagging problem in the front to begin with and just found out when it fell into two. It might settle a little, but I'd bet you're back at about stock height. I would NEVER cut those springs, you're just asking for lots of problems. I would bet you're going to have to look for some new lowering springs to bring it back to where it was before.
Well currently i have a 4 5/8 inch gap between the top of the wheel well and the tire. I had the springs done on my old 88 tbird sport and dont remember this kind of height. My mechanic did mention hed had trouble getting them in, something dont smell right.
personally, i think they arnt sitting in the cups properly
my 3.8L sits like a truck, and it doesnt sit that high
I had ordered the TRW CS8658's but the order got cancelled due to some sort of warehouse fire at the spring manufacturer. I ended up putting in CS8606's and don't have a problem with it.
Look in the bottom cup and the end of the spring should be just before a drilled hole that is used as a marker. This leaves a gap from the spring end to the risen edge of the coil spring cup.
Other than that, I certainly would NOT have him cut the coil down.
DONT CUT THE SPRING!! The load weight gets all jibbered up when you do and the car rides like $hit. the spring looks to long, I dont remember my front coils bowing out like that when its in the air.
I took the pic of the spring on the ground when its compressed, and it looks long to me.
Jeff
95 V6 Mustang front springs, 90 Mustang Gt rear springs. :D
Dang! :yuck: You have the wrong springs. I thought the pic was taken in the air.
I got the box from my mechanic today, he used the brand ULTRA RC8658, has anybody used this brand before, or had any problems with them? i think the person at the factory put the wrong stiffer springs in the box, and this is causing my problem.
I called a local shop and they have some Moog 8658 springs. time to go argue with my mechanic.
Jeff
I bourht some factory Moog springs for my car and the front sits up a little but nothing like what you are discribing. You might ask him what brand they are and check the number your self. I know when I got mine they were specific to the 83-86 turbo coupe at least according to the Moog book the others were different. Also when I replaced my front springs they were broke and I still had to pry them out of the lower a-arm cup. That rubber isolator was stuck in there with the spring stuck in it. here is what my car sit like two days after the sping install.
(http://www.piranha-fury.com/photopost/data/500/514784_drvr_side-med.jpg)
I didnt know that pic was taken with the car on the ground, definatly wrong springs
If you're looking to get the front end back to a lower stance, I believe the front set of the Suspension Techniques lowering springs are still available from JC Whitney. When I ordered mine, they were $80 for the front set.
Ok an update on my springs. I went 2 a different spring shop today. I got the guy to take the spring that my other mechanic put in out, we compared it to the old factory spring and another one i got from Moog/federal mogule same part number, all were within a half inch of being the same and were the same thickness.
So in the end i decided to keep the ones my mechanic put in and got them to chop 1 coil off, now the car sits at 3 to 3 1/4 inches, better but not perfect.
My question is, can springs that are the same length and thickness compress at different rates??? Is it possible for someone at the factory to put the wrong pressure spring in the box that looks the same as another????
Jeff
that was Not the right thing to do but hey...its yer car...
sorry, thats a serious pet peeve of mine..
oh, and i know its a little late but...stock 88 sport springas'
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/472000-472999/472287_10_full.jpg)
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/599000-599999/599075_43_full.jpg)
My mechanic used a brand called Ultimate 8658 and i purchased Moog 8658 booth for the 88 Sport modle, both were the same length and size as the one unbroken spring for the car. Ford discontinued the springs so the aftermarket was all i could do. Everbody was in aggreement that if the spring were the same height and the coiles the same thickness that they would compress the same, so instead of putting in another brand to end up at the same height, and since i aint leaving these springs that were in it at a
$#$#$ up height of 4.5 inches clearance, i decided to lop off 1 coil to tie me over.
Every parts place including this site shows part number 8658 as a sport coil. Somthing is messed up as i have drived tbird sports for 10 years now and had coils done before and never had it stand this high.
The only thing i can think off is that 2 different coils that are the same height and coil thickness and same number of coils can compress more than another. If that was the case and i was made of money i would have tryed another barand befor doing the chop.
Jeff
And if someone can tell me how much of a gap they have after putting on sport coiles in the front, that would help alot in judgeing my problem.
Thanks
Jeff
Somethings off about this whole thing. It's almost like you have a V6 with V8 springs.
well, if you want to try them, when i get mine out you can give them a try. should be soon. they have about 90k miles on them though. something funky is going on there...the top of your tire is just about even with the top of your moulding from what it seems. its a relitivally normal size tire... is the rear sagging alot?
I have checked my VIN number, this is an 88 Tbird sport 5.0. I have a gap of around 2.5 inches on the rear. And i am using the ten hole mustang rims. This is my second Tbird sport, and both of them always sat lower than this one did after the new coils went in.
I think its possible for a coil the same thickness to compress more than others, he did use a very py brand of coil, most likely that is the problem.
Now it seemes to ride fine and sits around where it was before. Something is off here, and cutting the coil was a cheap fix that seems to work.
there shouldnt be any problem cutting 1-1 1/2 coils off a spring unless its a progressive rate spring correct? I took 3/4 of a coil of my t-birds front so it would sit level with the rear (which was desiogned to sit lower :crazy: ) and didnt notice any difference in handling or ride and I plan on doing the same on my Zephyr
If the two springs are made out of the same material, no.
Spring rate is determined by the following formula:
Rate (N/mm) = G d4/ ( 8 N D3)
G = Modulus Of Rigidity (N/mm2)
d = dia of wire.(mm)
D = Mean dia of spring (mm)
N = Number of Active Coils
So, theoretically, a spring with the same diameter, coil thickness, and number of coils will have the same spring rate.
Cutting coils will increase the spring rate regardless of whether it is a progressive or constant rate spring. You can get a good idea of the increase by using the above formula.
Yup,
Same thing happened to us. Except I bought the springs. The Bird has the same higher front end appearance. ....a year later, it still looks the same. This explains why I couldn't compress one spring enough to install it--and so had to haul the car to a shop to have the job done(?) One benefit, the wind dam doesn't bottom on those concrete bumper stops seen on the ground--anymore.
Yes, two springs made from the same material and the same thinckness can have different rates to them. It all depends on how the spring is tempered from the factory.
No. Modulus of Rigidity (Shear Modulus) is a material property. It cannot be changed by quenching/tempering a material.
AISI 4130 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), air cooled, 13 mm (0.5 in.) round (http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=M4130B)
AISI 4130 Steel, water quenched 855°C (1570°F), 480°C (900°F) temper, 13 mm (0.5 in.) round (http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=M4130F)
AISI 8620 Steel, cooled in carburizing box, reheated and quenched, 13 mm (0.5 in.) round (http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=M862AF)
AISI 8620 Steel, annealed 13 mm (0.5 in.) round (http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=M862AA)
If you follow the links, you'll find the Shear Modulus is 80 GPa for all 4 samples, regardless of the heat treatment given to the material.
temper can change it drastically...............like morons that torch them hot so they sag,,,,,,,as a resuolt of the spring losing its temper.
You can't just wind a coil of steel and call it good and through it in there.
And if I am thinking right you can't change a material just by heating it. It still has the same molecular structure even after heating.
No, as I said before, tempering a spring doesn't change its shear modulus. It is constant (in the elastic region). If you have any information that shows otherwise, I'd like to see it.
Take two pieces of mild steel, heat one up to 1000 degrees, and then drop it in cold water. Leave the other one alone.
Even after piece #1 is quench/tempered, they both have the same shear/Young's modulus. If you apply a force to both pieces, they will both deflect at the same rate.
Heating springs with a torch can "ruin their temper", but it won't change the shear modulus.
I could get you the Caterpiller standard for you but I would run the risk of loosing my job over it.
The other thing is I could pull any spring drawing for Cats Data Base and they have all kinds of specs on heat treating and tempering.
heating up a spring also changes it at the moleculor level. I have seen plenty or springs that are diffrent after heat treating. It will harden and compress it. It changes the type of meterial that it is made of.
Not the type the grade of the material.
You heat treat a spring to increase yield strength and fatigue limits, not to increase/decrease the spring rate. Heat treating a spring doesn't change the spring rate.
Once again, if you have any information to prove otherwise, show it.
Look up heat treatment of springs in machinery's handbook.
This is true for a torsion spring which is what some chrysler use but we have compresion springs. Which it states in there to keep its elasticity need to be baked.
So he couold have one that did not get baked hot enought or maybe long enough. Or the other one sat in there too long and turned hard.
Ok.
No. The shear modulus doesn't change after heat treatment for any spring. Nowhere does it say so in the Machinery's Handbook (or anywhere else for that matter).
On page 349 of the Machinery's Handbook (27th Edition) it states:
General Heat Treat Information for Springs. - The following is general information on the heat treatment of springs, and is applicable to pre-tempered or hard-drawn spring materials only.
Compression springs are baked after coiling (before setting) to relieve residual stresses and thus permit larger deflections before taking a permanent set.
...
Outside diameters shrink when springs of music wire, pretempered MB, and other carbon or alloy steels are baked. Baking also slightly increases the free length of these changes produce a little stronger load and increase the rate.
I will concede that heat treatment can change the spring dimensions, which will change the spring rate minimally. It is nothing you'd notice in your car though (unless you loaded the spring while heating it). But, back to your original assertion...
Not so for compression springs, or even torsion bar springs. You can apply a preload (initial tension) to extension springs, but this doesn't actually change the spring rate.
Ok I guess I and everyother Caterpiller engineer are wrong when we put the heat treat and all the other specs on the drawing for Cat.
And it says right there that it permits larger deflection. Doesn't that mean it brings the spring rate up?
No, it means the spring can deflect further before setting, sagging, or otherwise succumbing to plastic deformation. The spring rate can change a bit, due to dimensional changes during heat treat, but that is something that has to be dealt with and designed for...not the primary purpose of heat treat.
I worked in the quench/temper section of a pipe mill, and we had heat treatment information on file for all of the different sizes/alloys. It is needed to ensure you make a quality product.
That was my point he could have one that was not treated at all which means its going to compress more that the other. Which inturn means it has a different spring rate. Or the other sat in their oven too long and turned so hard it will not compress.
And as for designing for it. It looks like he may have gotten a cheap pair of springs he said they were Ultra. I personal have never heard of them. So if they are a new company they could have a quality control issue.
Found this link,
Springs are motor specific
http://www.coolcats.net/tech/reference/parts.html
The 8658 is the v8 spring, it has an install height of 11.75"
The 8606 is a HD V6 spring with an install height of 11"
Spring rate can also vary even when springs appear identical. Check with a parts store for the Moog spring catalog, specs are all in the back...
I would trim 1 coil off of it . I done correctly it will have no ill effects.
IF he was to cut/Heat it with a torch to lower the ride height it could cause real big issuse with the heat tempering of the spring itself and cause sagging and spring failure later on.
My coil springs are covered in black vinyl. I am no chemist or engineer but, it seems like the vinyl would melt off:flame: . Would that matter long term?
It could if it got too hot.