Ok, so I'm getting the front back together right, and I've got everything, and yes I mean everything, back together, and guess what... my tie rod ends come up short. Short as in 1"+ short on each side. I can't have both wheels facing straight.
:flame:
So I've been reading around, and it looks like people on corral who have had the same problem ended up getting a bump-steer kit. Anyone ever used one? How much more adjustment out would it give me? I'm looking to make up at least an inch, maybe 2. I'll measure it tomorrow, but i'm short by a bit.
Any ideas for solving this problem would be great, I've asked all my local sources of info.
:flame:
did you use a mustang rack or inner tie rods?
dude did you use SN 95 stuff if so then you have to use SN95 stuff if you look in cougarnuts arcives there should be a thread when will did his convertion..
well i did some searching and there are threads about it but i think i remember we resolved this over the phone..
anyway if you did use SN 95 stuff you need to use SN95 inner tie rods ,sleaves and outer tie rod ends ;) that will give you that extra inch or so that you need. the reason why you need use all SN95 stuff is because the sleave threads are diffrent. but the treads on the inner socket to the rack are the same as a fox.. any other questions let me know..
and just to make sure try and touch base with will..
Nick
Well I've looked at the outer tie rods, and they're shorter then the fox ones I have.
I used a manual rack off of a 84 mustang.
Well I compared inner tie rods for SN95's and Foxes today at work, they have the same threads but are 2" longer, I'll see how that goes... Now all I need is endless time to work on this thing.
Well, so far I've tried to have the tie rods modified to fit the rack, but the machine shop warned me that they couldn't tap the insides of the inners to fit the existing rack, and modifying it to fit the rack could possibly damage the tie rods in some way. He also said by the time I modified those inners, I could have bought the right parts to fix it permanently. So I just ended up calling Maximum motorsports and ordering their Adjustable outer tie rods (which is also a bump steer kit).
(http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/images/smilies/flamethrower.gif)
Just imagine the guy on the left is another 160 bucks.
:(
What exactly was the problem? As Blown306Cougarsaid, SN95 inners bolt right up the Fox racks. SN95 inners/outers would have solved your problem.
I got sent an e-mail a few months ago that the threads going into the SN95 inners are metric. Couldn't verify it, but after talking on the phone with David, this seems to be the case. The Fox steering shafts are standard, the SN95's are metric. The only solutions I could come up with were 1) have the SN95 inners machined/tapped for the standard thread, or 2) use a bump steer kit. Seems like #2 won.
As far as I know, all Fox/SN95 racks use SAE threads. I've read dozens of cases where people have put SN95 tie-rods on Fox racks. It is std. procedure for the 5-lug swap. Maybe he has a freak rack.
I would agree with you Jeremy. But it looks like there is some kind of problem with something along the line. In years past the inner tie rods were so expensive that it was actually cheaper to replace the entire rack. Seems like the prices have come down...David said he only paid $10/each for the inners, so it's not like he's out much money. Eh, what do you expect...everything from parts stores is made in China nowadays. :(
Why does everyone keep talking about SN95 parts when David said,
"I used a manual rack off of a 84 mustang."
? Just wondering...
I missed the post where he mentioned it was a manual rack. The only reference I've found regarding SN95 inners and a manual rack is here (http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8171&highlight=rod+rods+manual+rack+tie) (post #3). As David found out, the manual rack and power rack have different rack-to-tie rod interfaces.
Well there's another problem completely, I bought the rack, cracked one of the inners off to see if I could replace it with the SN95 inner and it didn't thread on. So I went back, purchased a fox inner, and that didn't thread onto the rack either. So I ended up returning all those inners and warrenty swapping the rack out so I could get an inner tie rod that fit.
Getting good at swapping the rack though....
I ordered a set of "longer" tie rods from Maximum motorsports with the adjustable sleeve on the outers, with the bumpsteer kit and the tapered bolts. 160 bucks! I really wish those inners would have worked
Ok yeah..... This just gets better and better....
If you believe in a higher-being, he must hate me...
I ordered those Maximum Motorsports outer tie rods, and they don't thread onto the inners. As far as I've seen on every part fox mustangs have to offer, all the inner and outer tie rods are exactly the same thread.
This is freaken rediculous, why they would send me outer tie rods with different threads from ANY fox inner ties rods is completely beyond me...
Hell... they're different than any MUSTANG inner tie rod thread....
Hey Eric, I got some info from you from Maximum Motorsports...
94+ cars got (STOCK) a metric outer tie rod, so you couldn't use the fox outers on them. 79-93 Mustangs got the standard we have on ours :rolleyes:
Aftermarket replacements (ie Autozone ) is all Standard. You go to the parts store and order any inner tie rod for any year mustang, it's all the same thread. Which is the same as fox's stuff.
Which is why I took the Maximum Motorsports kit to Autozone and pulled both the fox and SN-95 inners and it didn't thread onto either.
I thought I was going :hick: (crazy, not hick)
Not sure where you went, but all parts stores carry different inner tie-rods for Fox/SN95 cars. You must have gotten a defective parts person. ;)
So...to clear things up.
Rack to inner tie-rod interface: Same for all power racks (SN95/Fox)
------------------------------Manual racks are different than power racks
Inner tie-rod to outer tie-rod threads: SN95 is metric
-------------------------------------Fox is SAE
No... really, the threads are the same... I'm not defective, I'm the parts person. I ordered them myself.... Aftermarket replacements of Sn95 inner tie rods have STANDARD threads, they are 2" longer, but have standard threads.
It lives!!! Drives and runs by itself. MM finally sent me the right parts.
congrats. the wheels sit out any more?
They sit out a bit, but not as much as I thought they would. It actually like the look and I'm not a fan of any wheels that stick out of the wheel wells.
I'll have some pictures when I get my camera back.
I finally completed my SN95 rack conversion and can say with full confidence - that is NOT true.
I was unsure of which tie-rods would work, so I ordered a Fox TRE, and Taurus TRE, a SN95 TRE, and a FOX inner. All were TRW brand.
The Taurus and SN95 tie rods were metric, and the Fox tie rods were SAE. Neither would screw onto the other...I found this out by accident when I tried to put a Fox TRE onto the SN95 rack.
As an aside, if you want to swap a SN95 rack into your car while using stock spindles, you'll need '86-'95 Taurus TREs. The SN95 TREs are too long, not enough adjustment inwards. Else you will have to remove the stock inners and slap on a set of Fox inners/outers. I've yet to put the SN95 spindles on, but when I do I'll see if the Taurus TREs have enough threads engaged to be safe.
As an aside, I measured the track width to be 58 10/16" during my garage alignment.
Jeremy, you got pics?
I've got some, but can take more. What would you like pictures of?
I was interested in the TRE differences......Maybe something with all of them side by side?
I forgot about this post.
Below is a Fox TRE with a SN95 TRE. I didn't get a picture of the Taurus TRE. It has exactly the same construction as the SN95 rod, but it is 1.4" shorter.
The Fox TRE is on top.
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/shaft 038_r.jpg)
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/shaft 037_r.jpg)
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/shaft 036_r.jpg)
Notice that the Fox TRE has an open inner portion, which allows the inner tie rod to adjust almost all the way in to the ball joint (yes, it isn't the ball joint, but it is a ball joint).
The SN95 TRE is closed and doesn't have nearly as much adjustment range.
Maximum Thread Engagement:
Fox - 3.25"
SN95 - 1.9375"
Taurus - 2.0625"
Ball-Ball Width: Width from TRE ball-joint to TRE ball-joint. Minimum width is with TREs adjusted to maximum limit inwards. Maximum width is with 1" of thread engagement.
Fox - 48" minimum / 53.75" maximum
Taurus - 52.25" minimum / 54.5" maximum
SN95 - 55.75" minimum / 57.375 maximum
The Ball-Ball Width for my '87 Thunderbird was 54"
The first thing you'll notice is that that my Ball-Ball width if wider than the maximum limit for a Fox.
Let me explain:
The Fox min/max widths are theoretical, using current aftermarket replacement racks. It is known that SN95 racks with inners are 48.5", and that Fox inners are 2" shorter than SN95 inners. I used these two facts, combined with the Fox TRE measurements I recorded to find the Fox Min/Max widths. My TREs currently are 54" in width and have ~1.75" of thread engagement left. The discrepancy may be due to the fact that OEM T-bird inners were longer. I will take off my outers on my old rack and measure it directly to confirm/deny this.
Also, these measurements for minimum width will vary depending on the manufacturer you use. I bought TRW parts, the Advance house brand. You can see in this (http://"http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=149486&postcount=24") post that Motorcraft TREs have slightly different measurements than my TRW pieces. The biggest difference was the amount of thread engagement available in the TRE.
SN95:
TRW - 1 15/16"
Motorcraft - 2 3/4"
Taurus:
TRW - 2 1/16"
Motorcraft - 2 1/2"
Bottom line. If you use SN95 inners in our cars with stock spindles, you need to use Taurus TREs. The SN95 TREs are too long.
any more info on this possibility?
i have 94 spindles, sn95 length LCAs, mustang tubular k-member, and the factory 15:1 rack(87 TC). with this combo of parts my situation should be near identical to a fox mustang GT w/sn95 arms and the same spindles. i am probly gonna order a bumpsteer kit from MM to correct for my toe and tie rod angle issues. MMTR-7 (http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_13&products_id=1141)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/gmby23/87%20turbocoupe/caca7142.jpg)
unless the stock tbird inners are indeed longer.....then that kit from MM may be too long.
I measured the rack. It was 45.5" from tip-to-tip. I compared an aftermarket outer and the lengths were the same. The OEM inners aren't longer.
My math for the Fox rack (since I didn't measure it directly) must be incorrect. The Taurus/Sn95 combinations were measured directly.
thanks for the additional info. i should be fine with that MM kit then.
Or find someone with a Fox who has 96+ spindles and swap them for your 94-95. I suppose the extra few mm width difference might cause you clearance issues, but then again maybe not.
You'll need about 1" to make up for the rack being lower on the KB K-member.
yeah, thats roughly what my tape measure shows as well.
when i set it down with weight on it, i thought the same thing about 96+ spindles......
then i thought back to when i asked you about 94/5 vs. 96+ spindles with this setup......:flip:
*edit. you think i should go bolt-thru instead of tapered stud to get enough adjustment? it will cost as much to swap now as to get a bumpsteer kit. would hafta swap plus still deal with the width issue.
I musta had a brain fade, or didn't remember about the K-member...:hick:
If you go with a bolt-thru you could actually weld and reinforce a spacer on the spindle to help with the rigidity of using the longer bolt with the tall spacer. I never liked the idea of just stacking the spacers and putting that load on the bolt like that.
the bolt-thru is actually cheaper, so ill probly go that way.
this is gonna open a can of worms where MM gets a bunch of my money....
i want their rear outer kit as well. i have the KB adjustable inners and rods
i also will want the bumpsteer gauge
oh and while im buyin shiznit, i may as well get a camber gauge too ;)