why is it that this cant be done?
i was under the impression that if you got matching injectors and sensor, you can run them on our a9L/a9p eec's?
we harvested some mk8 injectors and mass air sensors but apparently this is a no go? when tied to the MA eec's we use?
Think of it the same way you would any other sensor and actuator controlled by a PLC. Your PLC is programed to work with specific instruction (output) based on specific input. Now change the sensor with one of different characteristics paired with an actuator again with different operating characteristics.......things aren't going to work well anymore until you alter your program to match the equipment.
Saying that... matching injectors and MAF is usually talking about calibrated Maf to use larger injectors yet maintain the stock program. Even then the MAF has to be manufactured to represent the data specific to a particular ECU.
If you have the tools for self tuning......none of this matters. Simply change the program to match your equipment.
John
My understanding is. The ECU is programmed to injectors and MAF. Ive read that the calibrated mafs aren't the "best" option. Best is to tune the ECU to tell it what injector size is and the airflow table of the MAF.
There was talk about a calibrated maf causing issues with different levels of engine load etc. It is still over my head, but I'm learning. That said, I've seen lots of guys running different mafs and seeming OK? I have a different maf from Vinnie I'm still waiting to install and try.
Calibrated MAFs have their place...... ideally for forced induction where you need to measure airflow beyond the clip limit of the ECU. It's old school but does work for large injectors without tuning and yes depending on how large the increase.....it will drop you down in the load cells. It's usually manageable.
Yes the ECU dictates the MAF. You can put whatever MAF you like in your car......if it's close the adaptive strategy will correct for closed loop conditions but you risk poor running or damage for WOT Openloop conditions. So I agree tuning is best for anything other than stock components.
John
No Ford factory MAF is calibrated to an injector size. When Ford programs the factory computer it puts in the injector information (size, etc) and the transfer function of the MAF.
An aftermarket calibrated MAF skews the MAF transfer function to output less at a given air flow than the factory MAF. For example an aftermarket calibrated MAF for 24lb injectors on an A9P will output 19/24 amount of voltage at the same flow rate as the stock MAF. This allows 24lb injectors to be used in an application that originally came with 19lb injectors.
Now you have two options in your case:
1. Spend ~$500 on a chip and tune. The tuner will input your injector size and the Mark VIII MAF transfer function into the A9L/A9P.
2. Buy an aftermarket calibrated MAF for an 86-93 5.0 Mustang with 24lb injectors for ~$200-300.
These are your only two options. If you plug the Mark VIII MAF into the harness with an untuned A9L/A9P IT WILL NOT WORK. THE CAR WILL RUN LIKE shiznit.
Got it?
yes.
got this on ebay, from this seller
he told me he shiipped mine out to me quickly and it was gone, when i asked if he had the pn.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/87-04-FORD-5-0-4-6-5-4-MUSTANG-GT-COBRA-MASS-AIR-FLOW-SENSOR-MAF-METER-24-lb-OEM/362309129946?hash=item545b4e96da:g:P0YAAOSwuWha6gb-&vxp=mtr
I will get an assortment over the next couple weeks to "see" which MAF feels better against the eec and this 331 with 24# inj.
its nice to have options.,,
so,,, do i have bad news and this maf "wont work"???????
Yup.....still going to be an issue......it looks like a stock take off meaning calibration is in the matching ECU not the meter. Even if that meter itself is calibrated for 24# it will be based on a newer ECU. Either way it will require tuning to work well for your application.
Some food for thought if you are trying to avoid tuning...... You have increased displacement moving your VE ~9% need for more fuel and you have increased injectors ~26%, therefore the hypothetical fuel error is ~17% too rich. If you end up getting a calibrated Maf for 24# injectors......you will hypothetically change that fuel error to ~9% too lean. Keep in mind I aa calculating based on equipment intended for the GUFx family of ECUs. As you can see no matter what you decide it will never be right without a tune.
John
so the technical jargin i am looking for on a maf is the word "calibrated" ?
304 772 3411
we tried that maf i just got today,, plugged it into my son's a9p 306,,, it sux.
mason has a working just fine 306 we built with an a9p and a no longer available 24# "PMAS" sensor.
it was plug and play,, works fine.
we pluged this ebay one on his car and it fails.
so.. again,,, is it that i need to buy a "calibrated" maf?
my oldest son has his bird in today, we have this maf sensor pictured installed on his 306 with an a9p and MK8 injectors,, works great.,, was plug and play.
my youngest son has a 030 over 302 base 331 stroker and we plan on using an a9l or a9p or cw3 eec.
we plugged in the maf i just got off ebay into my son's tbird and it sux like predicted.
is this maf considered a "calibrated" maf?
Hey Scott..... I got your PM. I can call later this evening after work...... In the meantime.....Yes you need a "calibrated Maf" more specifically it must be for 89-93 Mustang and only if tuning is not an option.
Take a look at Pro-M their calibrations are usually spot on and comparable to the PMAS. For your 331 in spite of what people say on the web..... I would also consider the C&L with interchangeable sample tubes so you can experiment without having to buy a new meter. I use a PMAS myself but have tuned many C&L meters without issue.
Like I said earlier.....I feel regardless of what you do..... A tune is going to make the difference. You don't have to spend a ton of money, you can always take it in and just have the MAF dialed in or look into the Moates or Tweecer offerings if you want to put the money to better use.
John
wow,, found the company that made our other PMAS from the picture above,,,, up in ohio.
here is the equal rendition to their plug and play no tuning required mass air sensor..
http://www.pmas-maf.com/product/mh80b-24-80mm-housing-w-tuned-maf-24lb-injectors-black/
105$
I had the PMAS one you linked. It did not want to play nice without a tune.
This is plug and play with a stock airbox: https://lmr.com/item/PMA-12579AE/1989-93-Mustang-50L-75Mm-Black-Pro-M-Mass-Air-Meter-For-24Lb
As a FYI 24lb injectors are probably small for a 331 (even though you are using GT40 heads). My 306 ended up needing 30lb injectors as it was running low on fuel above 5200rpm. The 24lb injectors couldn't keep up.
Hey Scott.... It looks like C&L are out of business. I assume the ones on American Muscle are china clones and it appears MAC is making something similar. Either way you would still need the stock electronics from an 89-93 gt/lx Mustang.
https://www.shop.macperformance.com/Ford-Mustang-50L-V8-1986-1993-73mm-Mass-Air-Meter-MA7386.htm
https://www.americanmuscle.com/cnl-73maf-8693gt.html
John
wha???
24's too small for a 306?
that means 24's are wayyyyy to small for me yet summit / others said they will work fairly spot on with my small ho cam???
based on what you have experienced, that means i need bigger than 30lb injectors,,
stock 302 bird 14# injector, for each cylinder of 37.75cu in of displacement = about .37lb of fuel per cu in.
your 306 with 24lb inj = .675lb per cube
you upgraded to 30lb inj, thats about .78lb per cub
since i am a .030 over 331, for easy math thats about a 350cu in,,,, and if i use .675 per cube,,, thats about 30# injector need??
was your maf plug and play or did you tune?
or did you let the eec learn?
when you say stock electronics,, you mean the eec ,, correct?
also,
if i change to 30# injectors will the a9l or a9p eec be able to manage them?
i know they are low resistance injectors,,,,
the CFI 3.8L are high resistance but are 34# (green tops) which i have a couple dozen of).
i also have a dozen CFI 5.0L 54lb which are also high resistance but what i have seen is the sefi 5.0,, all the injectors are low resistance.
No, I mean the from the MAF sensor.
John
A9* all require High Z and as long as you have a MAF calibrated for 30 or whatever you end up running you should be able to manage.
John
reword pls
you mean -use a stock stang mass air sensor?
I mean the electronics from the stock MAF get installed on the new housing if you go the sample tube MAF housing direction.
Just reading Thunderjets posts....he brings up a good point about needing larger injectors. Yes the 24s will work fine up to around 300 hp. The problems arise at high RPM where there isn't enough time to squirt into the cylinder due to cam events. This is where you need a larger injector to deliver more fuel in less time.
John
C&L MAFs reuse the stock electronics from an 89-93 5.0 Mustang MAF. You put the electronics in the C&L housing. The C&L unit has different size sample tubes that change the amount of air passing over the MAF sensor element, "calibrating" the signal back to the computer to compensate for larger injectors. This process works well for up to 30lb injectors.
I discovered that the 24lb injectors on my car were too small when a friend hooked up his quarter horse to my car. Under high load, high rpm conditions the 24lb injectors were hitting 90% duty cycle. It's better to be in the 80% range. Swapped to 30lb red top injectors (used in 89-92 Thunderbird SCs) and I've yet to see over 75-80% duty cycle under the same conditions. It's a bit overkill but it's very safe.
As far as a stock A9P controlling 30lb injectors with no tune, yes it'll work. Here's my car idling after a cold start. It has 30lb red top injectors, 76mm C&L MAF, stock replacement Motorcraft fuel pressure regulator, and NO computer tuning done. https://youtu.be/Z92w1Y0-E_4
ok,, so i have the ebay maf which skunk said its for the sellers application plus for late 90's / early 2000's trucks.....
and...
i have 3 MKVIII mafs....
so..
dont i have enough mafs lying around that if i buy the C&L,, one of my maf's should work?,, assuming that i also upgrade to 30lb injectors? and i work in the correct sample tube??
am i tracking this right?
also,,
the larger the sample tube,, the leaner you are able to calibrate,,
the smaller the sample tube,,, the richer you are able to calibrate,,
and,,,,
do you feel like the sample tube could be fabricated "as-bult" in my own shop to achieve a better running feel?
here are the maf's i have
the ebay one -xl3f-12b579-ba
two MKviii-- f3vf-12b579-aa
one u/k which i think might be a stock stang one,, smaller tube than the mk8' - f5uf-12b579-ba
which one to use on the C&L?
None of those will work for you. Your unknown is for a 96 truck. For any of them you will still need to define the Transfer function in the ECU.
I took a quick glance and any of those meters will run you lean below 1.4 volts and pig rich above that voltage. If you run Mark8 computer with Mark8 MAF you can tweak from there with sample tubes.
John
just to confirm,,,
if i find the mustang maf,, and move forward i am going to be able to run fine with the right C&L sample tube,,
correct?
Yes but specifically an 89-93 mustang.
John
Or this (http://"http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse-for-fords-p-199.html?cPath=63") and this. (http://"http://tunerpro.net/download/SetupTunerProRT_v500_9130.exe")
Ultimate control and part compatibility. I have a similar setup, I can share my tune with you and you should only need to swap the MAF transfer function for your Specific MAF and set the displacement to match your 331. Maybe a couple other small tweaks in the timing tables.
I think it would make an invaluable learning opportunity. Digging your hands into a tune is the best way to really understand why an engine computer does what it does, how it makes it decisions, and what information is used and adapted to influence its judgment. You learn how it thinks. What I've learned tuning has made me a more effective technician, especially where an ECM becomes involved.
So my 306 made 290ish rwhp / 310ish ft-lbs of torque (over ten years ago) and was out of fuel with a Pro-M 75mm Bullett MAF and 24 lb/hr Motorsport injectors. The car was tuned on a Mustang Dyno with a SCT switch chip. Installed a 2001 Mustang GT MAF and 42 lb/hr injectors that weekend and went back to the tuner and the car made 310ish rwhp / 330ish ft-lbs of torque. The Mustang MAF was an 80mm unit and my tuner had the transfer function for all of the Ford stock MAF's so that is why we went with that one.
Moral of the story here is that 30 lb/hr injectors would have worked just fine but I had a buddy with the 42's and got them cheap. Since the upgrade to the 331 it was a good choice as that little beast wanted the fuel. You really should bite the bullet and just get the car tuned as it will run better and make better power. This will also translate into longevity and general joy in driving the car.
You don't even want to know what a calibrated MAF does to your timing advance, especially added to the fact that you have a 331 and not a 302. The engine displacement is legitimately part of the tune; it's in there, in CID, and changing it causes the EEC to curve the timing data from the spark tables differently. The timing tables need to be scaled for your heads if they're not E7's (My P heads required 6 additional degrees most of the way across the tables). With 11:1 on P's and domes (dumb) I was getting spark knock with 93 gas on hot days with just a calibrated MAF, which is part of the reason I ditched it and decided to just sack up and tune. You've got a stroker now, your days of plug and play engine management are over.
these are my heads....
yes i am running shorty stainless headers.
heads are from a member here
1969 4v casting with April 29th 1972 foundry date.
302 / 71-74 / D1TZ-A,D2OE-BA / 58.2 / 1.78/1.45
upgrades are :
~Ferrea 6000 valves with 1.94 Intake & 1.6 exhaust with bronze guides
~approc 54CC which should be as discussed around 10:1 compression
~Isky adjustable guide plates
~Cnc ported by Power Heads
~beehive springs that came to about 115lbs of seat pres per the machine shop
~3/8'' studded
thanks mike and all for the bluntness,,, i am ok with it.
this will not be my car to own,, it goes to my youngest son.
is there a way i can pay someone here to tune me?
i cant see investing into the support equipment / software and self paced education time i cant make room for right now,,
i am torn now between C&L and Pro-M.
Several calls to suppliers say my head/strocker combo is right dead on for 24# injectors as well.. yet the peps i trust here say 30's are needed.
Pro-m builds custom to my engine build,,,@250$ to buy the maf sys including them calibrating to my setup.,, then it should work fine on our a9L or a9p
c&L gives me a housing and i can buy a couple tubes to play around with yet i am still kinda "guessing" - @ 140$ for housing, then i buy the stang maf,, then assemble then experiment till i "feel" or "think" it might be right...
People who say 24lb injectors are fine are saying that they'll work because they are figuring 100% duty cycle on the injector at WOT. Great way to limit fuel in an emergency and damage the engine. I'd rather run a 30lb injector at 75-85% duty cycle at WOT and have capacity than running a 24lb injector wide open, but that's just me. Trying not to pop a head gasket or put a hole in a piston is my goal ;)
Also make sure you have enough fuel pump. 190lph minimum in your case.
Those heads are NOT going to play with a stock tune and a calibrated MAF. There are lots of outfits that will build you a tune for your combination and burn it to a J3 port module (a "chip") for you. It won't be dyno tuned, but some of these guys have MASSIVE databases of component profiles and base tunes and it would still be safer than a stock tune and a calibrated MAF.
You've done all this work so far, it would be lousy for it to get running and end up detonating holes through the pistons.
yup,,
suggestions on "who" for chip/tune/maf?
if you simply look at my zip code,, this topic is way over the heads of my demographics...
scott
394 772 3411
id rather pay someone here for this type of service though...
Scott the problem with this.....you either need someone close to go hands on OR you still need to buy the hardware to be able to provide data logs so an educated guess can be made. I've tuned several cars with nothing more than data logs provided.....I'm not a big fan of doing this because I have no idea how well it worked out since most people are happy it's running.
While a tune is highly recommended for all the reasons stated in this thread......it's not a must. You just have to keep in mind you will be running with more spark advance so you may have set your initial timing lower. The only thing you really can't control is the open loop load triggered threshold. The calibrated MAF will hold you in closed loop longer when you actually want enrichment which means you need to push your foot to the floor to trigger it . Problem with this is you get thrown into WOT timing as well.
If Pro-M can guarantee that they will provide a meter that is calibrated to your displacement, injector size and the ECU ...... I would go that direction regardless of tune or no tune. Keep in mind the hardware for tuning costs about the same money then you can use the MAF you have. This also opens the door to get help dialing it in.
John
excluding the costs of a maf and maf housing,,,
how much do i spend on the ability to tune?
how much are the daughter boards ,, ie- what people call the "chips"
i have a laptop with win7,,
not sure how much i need to invest into this
I did not call Pro-M today,, as i got side tracked on the primary and hunting new work opportunities,,, small business and all.
and, is tweecer a good option>?
Well, I use a Moates Quarterhorse to tune, It's an emulator, not a chip, so it has a battery for if the car loses power, it's $250, and for software, I use Tunerpro RT, which is free if you can wait 10 seconds when you open the software. BIN files (the tune) for the stock tune you start from are free, as are the XDF files (definitions, basically defines what each section of the tune, which is in HEX, means), and ADX files (datastream definitions, so you can monitor data in real time). I've learned around a few forums and write up sites such as here (http://"http://www.efidynotuning.com/"), and here (http://"http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/Main%20Frame.html"). Their knowledge is basically free. In total, besides MAF conversion EEC and parts, for me, it was $250 and some hours of self education mixed with on and off periods of trial and error. If you get a good base tune that runs good, starts good, and makes good power, you may still want to seek out a tuner who can polish up your tune (yet to do for me) either by driving, or on a dyno. Once you've got a good polished tune, you should make a backup of it (maybe in the cloud) and get a more permanent chip that stores the tune in non-volatile memory. The virtue of the QH, for me, is that I can tweak and make changes live (while the engine is running).
I have an A9P, and I run an A9L based tune, so I can datastream better.
what hardware are you using to interface to the eec with?
i understand the emulator part,,
you have to have something hardware tied to the eec,, or something bluetooth ish etc.
As stated above the Quaterhorse is an excellent option. I use both a Tweecer RT and a Quarterhorse....to be honest.....I prefer the Tweecer for permanent install and easy switching between tunes. It's down fall is the proprietary file type and provided software is lacking. I made the switch years ago to Binary Editor so I could use one software for everything. I began my chip burning days with TunerPro and still use it on occasion but it' can be intimating for a beginner.
The only other hardware you need to price out is a wideband......it's crucial for setting WOT fuel.
The Quaterhorse and the Tweecer do the same thing. They are your interface that stays attached to the ECU with a USB coming out for your laptop. You load your tune and go
John
This is the Moates Quarterhorse. It connects to the EEC at the J3 port (under the rubber cover at the opposite end as the 60-pin), and to your laptop by USB. Unlike TwEECer, it ends up completely inside the EEC. This is a picture of the initial hardware release, subsequent revisions have a socketed CR2032 battery as might be found on a PC motherboard as the RTC battery.
(http://www.moates.net/images/qh_side3.jpg)
ok,, so,, i get a bit confused i guess and was about to call Pmass and ProM,, then i had a gut feeling i should review this thread.
**Dont buy** a calibrated maf was the suggestion...
so i have several maf's
i buy all teh qhorse stuff then program?
-assumes i already integrated 30lb injectors and a stock 89-93 stang maf & two wide band o2's.
also,,
pro-m has a somewhat newer maf out that has no air flow obstructions...... which may be a better unit for the sake of using any fuel ,, since fuel type used affects your tune parameters.
You only need one wideband, and it will require its own port. Most wideband kits will come with a bung to weld in, so you only need to make a hole with a unibit and weld the bung on. I've been doing only narrowband tuning, but it's slower and less precise.
You'll also want to make certain you've gathered up all your info, the Injectors should have a summary sheet with high and low slope specs as well as a voltage offset table and injector breakpoint. I'd go with whichever stock MAF you already have is largest, you can get the MAF transfer table for stock MAFs on the internet pretty easy. You'll have to enter those basics into your tune, plus increase the displacement, and probably scale your spark tables to deal with those heads. How much may be a matter of trial and error. There's more, but those are the high points you'll need to startup and be fairly happy.
These are the specs you'll need to enter for injector data (if you are using Ford/Ford Racing EV1 red top 30lb injectors): https://performanceparts.ford.com/parts/ics/m-9593-b302.pdf
Mark VIII MAF tarnsfer function: https://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18424
to get the maf tables changed,,
this would require you have the daughter board installed within the eec?
Yes. You have to have a quarterhorse or a tweecer.
just got told i keep my narrow band o2 sensors and hook them up.,,, yet i install ONE wide band o2 on the same radial as the stock narrow band,,, and keep it within the 9 to 3 o'clock location.
this way each sensor is unobstructed and they both are up high.
the wide band will tie to the eec on pin 27 along with a ground near the eec so the ref gnd is married close to the same.
sound correct?
Scott this is getting way to complicated. Simply if you tune you can use what you have and make upgrades as required. I've been doing this a very long time and can tell you there is a lot of unnecessary internet BS suggested tune changes .....some of which are included in this thread. You also can't count on datasheet info to work well. Ford doesn't follow their own data for injectors why would you. Even the MAF will need tweaking for the Mark8 MAF......the transfer function is tuned for a 4.6L mod motor with a much different intake tract....not to mention a whole different processor set for 24# injectors.
My recommendation is to use a calibrated MAF regardless of tune or no tune. I prefer redundancy......you can tune everything perfectly but if the chip fails.....your dead on the side of the road. With the calibrated MAF you can still limp it home.
John
Forgot to mention....you only need one wideband. While tuning you disable the driver side in software and install your wideband in the existing bung. ( I suggest the driver side due to it's usually the leaner bank.....you will have to detmain which side is leaner) You only need an additional bung if you wish to permanently install the wideband. When done tuning you put the narrow band back in and re activate in software. You only need the WB to tune your WOT and OL fuel. The narrow bands will help you dial in Closed Loop.
Long story short .....in the end you want a narrow band on each bank.
I don't recommend NB emulation back to the ECU. The wideband is just that....a wide band fuel sensor..... It's not fast enough for these ECUs that are looking for a very specific narrow band switch. But hey.....what do I know.....there will be many that will disagree ....my experience and training tell me differently.
John
mike, ive been wondering something so i will compare it to something of what i have experienced in the past.
the example will lead into questioning "does the software really represent to 99.7% of what is really happening.
on an Alpha DC power plant i did which was 20kA , -54v system we tied 11) C&D 2180AH battery strings.
the DC power plant has a "cordex controller",,, the word controller is misleading as it does handle working with various digital and buttstuffog inputs and supplies various reactionary outputs during operation.
the controller will display two key values during a time when the utility AC input is down.
the voltage and the current demand extracted from all the 11) parallel battery strings. it also displays a visual numerical value of "HOW MANY HOURS YOU HAVE TILL THE BATTERY SYSTEM IS DEAD". with switch mode power supplies and such when the potential goes down,, the current demand goes up,,, so all cables are based on a design application of 42vdc.
these batteries are 7901 lbs each,, about 4'w x 2'd x 7'h,,, consisting of 24)2volt cells in a 3x8 or 4x6 configuration all strapped in series to give you a base 48v string. they are floated during normal conditions at 54vdc,, 2.25vpc.
gosh,,,i promise i will get to my point.. but i felt complelled to provide an example to support my question.
so... in order for the controller to display a proper accurate runtime in hours during an emergency utility outage,, two values are entered sourced from something called the "Peukert Number".
these two values come from looking up the OEM data sheets and when the battery string is at 1.75vpc,,, the runtime for the whole string has a ampacity at the 1hr and 20hr rate.
you enter the 1hr discharge rate and the 20hr discharge rate.
the controller has tables it references to now that you have given it two points in time, it fills in the gaps to display to the customer the estimated runtiime in hours based on the amps load.
I manually create an outage of utility to put the plant on battery with about 3000A load,,, i wait for about 5min to let the battery shake of the coup de fouet,,, then look.
my redneck math formula ive used to answer how long you have to battery dead is like this,,,, one string at 2180ah rated xx .88=1918AH. 1918x11 strings =21102ah capacity.
the load is 3000A. 21102ah/3000A = about 7hrs runtime.
apparently the controller scared the customer because the display showed 3hours.,, got me questioning things as i amp clamped each string,, all 11 were showing about 270amps of load ,,
in real life the battery(s) were discharging correctly,, yet the programming of the "way" the controller was showing hours was in error. there was a formula problem,, i corrected it and all is well, yet many people trust the software. the correction i had to make resided in the firmware and software which is not visible to anyone without having the god code password to see the code.,, i got it fixed though.,, controller ended up showing the same as my 1$ calculator.
have you verified that yes you ran lean on spark and fuel in reality as to compere it to what the software is saying and if yes,,, how?
i think someone like you would have done some sort of reality check to verify what the computer says is in fact correct.
==============
side note,,,
i asked around if any of this tuning software displays "alarms"
what i mean by this is for the elementary beginner like me.
example,, i run my car and the software detected that when i was pushing on the gas , my tps voltage for example went from 2.7vdc to 1.1v then to 2.9vdc,, illustrating a situation where the tps has a flat/worn out spot. the software would log this into something called logs and files,, called Alarms or whatever.
this type of thing would be something a user like my self would get "told" something is wrong.
this wold be true for any other item in the car on the EEC that has an expected job to do and when its intermittent or failing,, the software logs in another alarm.
getting alarms would trigger the user to "do something"
i truly believe there is a market for this feature,, i would pay for it as well.
in my 20th,, i do not get a CEL each and every time. heck,, i may have codes in that car now and not know it.
ive settled on tweecer and a stock mkviii maf
i am going to purchase pretuned services as well , along with the remote switch to pick from 4 predone tunes.
the tweecer does not depend on an onboard battery, not that its a bad thing but it is a possible point of failure.
the tweecer has oem support services, with qtr horse i feel almost like i am on my own having to muddle through yahoo and the web for help... which in my world i at this time do not feel i want to make the time of weeks or so getting the car to run on the first start with 95% great results.
at this point i will settle on turnkey service,, with remote vnc tech support to fine tune . With a working system from the oem, i can feel more comfortable knowing that i am making progress on the remaining parts of this build and i can learn from something that is "working" vs learning from something i "think" i may have gotten to work on my own.
i am on my own to find a wide band 02... doing that now.
since the car will not live with the pedal at 70% to the floor 100% of the time,, i am going to stay 24# inj for now,, against the recommendations i know.... i hope i dont regret it.
ive been assured that there wont be extra tweecer costs if i change to 30lb later, other than my burden on injector cost & install.
If you're not comfortable with the learning curve, or don't want to spend the time for trial and error or incremental adjustments, I think you're making a wise decision. As I said before, some of these guys have huge databases of component data for building tunes to order. I still think you're going to lean out at the top on 24s, but the drivability as a daily should be just fine. Your kid has to know that before he takes it out into the world. At any rate, changing the tune later for 30s or 42s is easy enough once you have the TwEECer.
thanks,, i did tell chance you offered up a file to get the car ballpark started which he and i thank you for,, he's working building Volvo's,, down in dublin Va.. little time to piddle.
seems like i have more spare time than i know what to do with at the current moment,, i hope that doesnt change but it may if my own company doesn't work out. im into my 2nd year now,,
The 24lb injectors should be fine around town. I'd be a bit leery of frequent WOT runs.
My Thunderbird is not a daily driver. I went bigger on the injectors because, since it's a "fun car", I tend to got WOT quite frequently.