Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: midnight cat on July 23, 2017, 03:57:31 PM

Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on July 23, 2017, 03:57:31 PM
My 86 Cougar GS (that I bought new in 86) starts right up but immediately stalls unless I keep my foot on the gas pedal. This started about a month ago with the engine surging for a while at start up but then it leveled out after a few minutes of running. Now it just starts right up & stalls. Clogged fuel injector? Any ideas on how to fix this would be appreciated!
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 23, 2017, 11:21:26 PM
Is it throwing any codes?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on July 24, 2017, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;461922
Is it throwing any codes?

I don't know and need to find out. The car has 135,000 miles on it. Do you think it could have a timing chain issue?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: JeremyB on July 24, 2017, 01:39:45 PM
Quote from: midnight cat;461925
I don't know and need to find out. The car has 135,000 miles on it. Do you think it could have a timing chain issue?
Highly doubtful. TPS or ISC are my first thoughts, but get the KOEO and KOER codes to give you some better direction.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on July 25, 2017, 01:22:18 AM
Quote from: JeremyB;461926
Highly doubtful. TPS or ISC are my first thoughts, but get the KOEO and KOER codes to give you some better direction.

Unfortunately I don't have any diagnostic tools. If the problem is something to do with the throttle body will that be expensive to fix?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: Haystack on July 25, 2017, 02:47:46 AM
You only need a paper clip.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: JeremyB on July 25, 2017, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: Haystack;461937
You only need a paper clip.
Probably a test light or multimeter too.

http://www.thorssell.net/hbook/eectest.html

Let us know what you get for codes.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on July 25, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;461940
Probably a test light or multimeter too.

http://www.thorssell.net/hbook/eectest.html

Let us know what you get for codes.

Will do.  Thanks all for the great advice!
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: Haystack on July 25, 2017, 01:28:01 PM
I used to use a 12v computer speaker, made the same beep as the cheap code readers back in the day. Ive also soldered a tail light bulb to wires before, just about anything will work.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on July 25, 2017, 02:22:08 PM
Quote from: Haystack;461946
I used to use a 12v computer speaker, made the same beep as the cheap code readers back in the day. Ive also soldered a tail light bulb to wires before, just about anything will work.

Thanks! BTW, people have told me the stock 3.8L V6 in my 86 Cougar is the worst engine Ford ever made. Even worse than the Chevy 305 V8. However, according to Wikipedia the Ford Esshag 3.8 L V6 is a pretty good engine. Do you think the Esshag was a bad design from the beginning?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 26, 2017, 02:13:11 PM
83-87 3.8 V6 = slow turd

88+ 3.8 V6 = slow, head gasket blowing, turd
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on September 02, 2017, 09:31:58 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;461926
Highly doubtful. TPS or ISC are my first thoughts, but get the KOEO and KOER codes to give you some better direction.


What is the ISC? I've replaced the TPS, the fuel filter, the fuel regulator and the fuel injectors. There are no vacuum leaks and the car does retain fuel pressure after being shut off (35 lbs). However, the fuel injectors aren't always firing at idle so the car always stalls unless I pour gas down into the TBI or spray some carburetor cleaner down there (car runs great for a few seconds if I manually feed the TBI gas). Could it be the pick up coil? Or maybe the module on the distributor? Also, we used a paper clip to get engine codes and it indicated the TPS was the problem - but the the new TPS hasn't made any difference.  Any advice would be appreciated!
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: Haystack on September 03, 2017, 01:04:20 AM
My guess is that was a typo for iac, idle air controler.

If you are loosing spark, it will stop firing the injectors.

Try unplugging the spout connector. If that makes no difference, then it is time to replace either the pip in the distributor, or the tfi module. I usually swap both, if one fails it seems like the other follows shortly after.

Edit

The pip is what tells the computer that the engine is turning over. This signal fires the injectors after being modified by the tfi module. Unplugging the spout might rule out a computer problem, it will put the computer in "limp mode", bypassing all but the necessary sensors to limp the car to a dealership.

The tps should sit around 1v at idle and reach 3.5v higher then idle voltage to initiate a full sweep. Everytime the computer is powered on, it checks for idle voltage. Anything between about .67-1.19 volts whould be in range, optimally closer to the middle of those numbers. Check for a constant raised signal until it pegs or reaches at least 3.5v higher then idle voltage. Any dead spots or higher then 5v indicates a bad sensor or possible ground wire.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 03, 2017, 09:32:47 AM
Quote from: midnight cat;461950
Thanks! BTW, people have told me the stock 3.8L V6 in my 86 Cougar is the worst engine Ford ever made. Even worse than the Chevy 305 V8. However, according to Wikipedia the Ford Esshag 3.8 L V6 is a pretty good engine. Do you think the Esshag was a bad design from the beginning?
Compared to Ford's 3.8, the 305 was a Crown Jewell... Other than being a turd(mostly due to emission control/tuning), really no different than any other small block Chevy... Ford's 302/5.0 in same era didn't run much if any better...

The only real problem with Ford's 3.8 were the heads... Aluminum heads were still in their early stages and Ford didn't allow enough material between the fire rings and some of the oil & coolant passages... So unless one flushed cooling system almost yearly they blew gaskets with regularity(I honestly dunno if that would have saved them)... The sharp 90* transition machined from lower head bolt surface to vertical was pr0ne to cracking in the early heads...  To put it this way, in the last 50+ years I've owned close to 200 cars, not one had a Ford 3.8... Yes I've owned a 305 or two even some Chevy & Buick 3.8...
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on September 03, 2017, 01:44:27 PM
Quote from: Haystack;462521
My guess is that was a typo for iac, idle air controler.

If you are loosing spark, it will stop firing the injectors.

Try unplugging the spout connector. If that makes no difference, then it is time to replace either the pip in the distributor, or the tfi module. I usually swap both, if one fails it seems like the other follows shortly after.

Edit

The pip is what tells the computer that the engine is turning over. This signal fires the injectors after being modified by the tfi module. Unplugging the spout might rule out a computer problem, it will put the computer in "limp mode", bypassing all but the necessary sensors to limp the car to a dealership.

The tps should sit around 1v at idle and reach 3.5v higher then idle voltage to initiate a full sweep. Everytime the computer is powered on, it checks for idle voltage. Anything between about .67-1.19 volts whould be in range, optimally closer to the middle of those numbers. Check for a constant raised signal until it pegs or reaches at least 3.5v higher then idle voltage. Any dead spots or higher then 5v indicates a bad sensor or possible ground wire.

Haystack,  Thanks for the detailed advice. It's greatly appreciated! BTW, what is the PIP?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on September 03, 2017, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;462532
Compared to Ford's 3.8, the 305 was a Crown Jewell... Other than being a turd(mostly due to emission control/tuning), really no different than any other small block Chevy... Ford's 302/5.0 in same era didn't run much if any better...

The only real problem with Ford's 3.8 were the heads... Aluminum heads were still in their early stages and Ford didn't allow enough material between the fire rings and some of the oil & coolant passages... So unless one flushed cooling system almost yearly they blew gaskets with regularity(I honestly dunno if that would have saved them)... The sharp 90* transition machined from lower head bolt surface to vertical was pr0ne to cracking in the early heads...  To put it this way, in the last 50+ years I've owned close to 200 cars, not one had a Ford 3.8... Yes I've owned a 305 or two even some Chevy & Buick 3.8...


Thanks for the background info on the 3.8L & the Chevy 305. Aren't the 3.8L engines in the 1989 Fords and newer more likely to blow a head gasket than the Fox body Cougars & T-Birds?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: Haystack on September 03, 2017, 04:48:24 PM
Pip is the pick up in the distributor. Can't remeber the more common name for it, but its similar to a crank or cam position sensor in a more modern engine. It is under the rotor in the distributor, and you may be better off buying a whole new distributor if you can get one.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on September 03, 2017, 11:38:34 PM
Quote from: Haystack;462536
Pip is the pick up in the distributor. Can't remeber the more common name for it, but its similar to a crank or cam position sensor in a more modern engine. It is under the rotor in the distributor, and you may be better off buying a whole new distributor if you can get one.

Thanks for the additional info. I think the distributor is original but there's only 135K miles on it. I am guessing a new distributor will be quite expensive.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 04, 2017, 02:26:59 PM
A brand NEW dist for my '96 F-150 with 5.0 was like $125... My old one has a bad PIP but I was too lazy to change it out... Of course it has remote mounted module, if that's included on new dist you can probably add $40-$50...
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: midnight cat on September 04, 2017, 04:01:10 PM
Quote from: Haystack;462536
Pip is the pick up in the distributor. Can't remeber the more common name for it, but its similar to a crank or cam position sensor in a more modern engine. It is under the rotor in the distributor, and you may be better off buying a whole new distributor if you can get one.

Is the idle air controller the same as the PIP or the TFI module or is it a separate part? And where is the "spout" I should disconnect?  Is it the TFI?
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: Haystack on September 05, 2017, 07:42:55 AM
Spout connector is a jumper plug near the distributor. It basically turns off certain computer functions and puts the car in limp mode. It is usually near the tfi plug that goes into the bottom of the distributor.

The tfi mounts to the distributor and the large plug goes in there.

The iac isn't the problem, forget about that for now.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on September 05, 2017, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: Haystack;462557
Spout connector is a jumper plug near the distributor. It basically turns off certain computer functions and puts the car in limp mode. It is usually near the tfi plug that goes into the bottom of the distributor.

The tfi mounts to the distributor and the large plug goes in there.

The iac isn't the problem, forget about that for now.

No basically it prevents control of timing advance by ECM, AFAIK everything else functions as normal... Definitely does not activate limp mode... Limp mode sets injector pulse at a fixed state, sooo engine is too rich at idle(usually see wisps of black smoke), too lean cruise, performance is in toilet...
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: JeremyB on September 05, 2017, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: Haystack;462521
My guess is that was a typo for iac, idle air controler.

I had to look it up myself to make sure I wasn't forgetting things. Getting old!
(https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/MegaSquirtArticle/CFI%20ISC%202.jpg)
ISC = Idle Speed Control. CFI's method to control idle. It physically moves the throttle blade to adjust airflow. IAC sends air through it and bypasses the throttle blades.

Quote
The tps should sit around 1v at idle and reach 3.5v higher then idle voltage to initiate a full sweep. Everytime the computer is powered on, it checks for idle voltage. Anything between about .67-1.19 volts whould be in range, optimally closer to the middle of those numbers. Check for a constant raised signal until it pegs or reaches at least 3.5v higher then idle voltage. Any dead spots or higher then 5v indicates a bad sensor or possible ground wire.
This...

You didn't indicate what the actual code that was thrown... Have you verified voltage at idle?


Although the 3.8 likes to blow head gaskets, the earlier ones aren't nearly as bad as the latter. Mine made it 226k before blowing.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: Haystack on September 06, 2017, 03:32:37 AM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;462558
No basically it prevents control of timing advance by ECM, AFAIK everything else functions as normal... Definitely does not activate limp mode... Limp mode sets injector pulse at a fixed state, sooo engine is too rich at idle(usually see wisps of black smoke), too lean cruise, performance is in toilet...

Really? Thats interesting, i had problems a few times where the car wouldnt even start but if i pulled the spout it fired right up. I think this was on my 87 tbird with a 302, pulled off the timing chain cover and the timing chain was so loose you could almost touch the chain together inbetween. After i swapped the chain with a cheap double roller that issue went away. That really, really would explain alot.
Title: 3.8 L Cougar idling problem
Post by: softtouch on September 06, 2017, 02:39:16 PM
I would do some more trouble shooting before I would replace anymore parts.
If you are still getting a TPS error code, that needs to be figured out.

List the KOEO codes you get and define whether they are hard codes or memory codes.