Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 14, 2017, 11:42:36 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 14, 2017, 11:42:36 PM
I am looking for information on this conversion -- i have a 1987 cougar orignal 5.0 fuel injected , installed new "HO" (roller cam with bbk intake ,GT40 alum heads , 24lbs injectors 70mm throttle body 70 mm bbk air meter) with a9l procesor - i have some driveability issues that may or may not be related to the conversion , but i have been told that the injector harness MUST be changed by some car guys , others say that it wont matter -the ecu fires them the same as fireing order of ho cam ? any ideas on this ---its a T5 car also:burnout:
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 15, 2017, 07:38:55 AM
Post by: Skunk on March 15, 2017, 07:38:55 AM
Best to look at the pinout for both ECU's for injectors. If pinout is the same you should be ok since the ECU program takes care of injector fire order.
Drivability issues? A9L, 70mm TB, 24lb Injectors , aftermarket MAF and what cam? I hope you are tuning. without a tune it will run ok but will likely have low speed cruise issues like bucking, surging and a high erratic idle.
John
Drivability issues? A9L, 70mm TB, 24lb Injectors , aftermarket MAF and what cam? I hope you are tuning. without a tune it will run ok but will likely have low speed cruise issues like bucking, surging and a high erratic idle.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: V8Demon on March 15, 2017, 08:22:17 AM
Post by: V8Demon on March 15, 2017, 08:22:17 AM
You DO NOT change the injector harness or the pinout for the firing order. The place where the pinout is different is the Tab/tad sensors (emissions) and the fact that there's no VSS wire (pin 6 I believe) on the stock 87 main harness. There's also no secondary fuel pump wire, however that does not affect driveability.
All the info is here. http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/massair.html
All the info is here. http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/massair.html
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 15, 2017, 08:53:03 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 15, 2017, 08:53:03 AM
Used the above link 10 years ago when I converted to MAF (with an A9P). Has always worked great.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 15, 2017, 11:15:43 AM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 15, 2017, 11:15:43 AM
thanks for the info , the car runs ok , but as mentioned by the first post , i do have some surging at cruse- also very flat (no throttle responce ) cold start after driving 3-5 mins clears after about a min (seems like hours)
the reason i ask about the harness is that this has been about a 15 year project -collecting parts from here and there (except for main performance parts --ie new block heads, cam (motorsport e cam) mass air flow )
the harneses throttlebody bbk ssi intake ect "lovingly used(HA HA )
if it were just a mass conversion straight up i dont think i would have the concerns - orignal engine was 5.0 just not HO - also it now has a T5 --i expected some idle issues
the reason i ask about the harness is that this has been about a 15 year project -collecting parts from here and there (except for main performance parts --ie new block heads, cam (motorsport e cam) mass air flow )
the harneses throttlebody bbk ssi intake ect "lovingly used(HA HA )
if it were just a mass conversion straight up i dont think i would have the concerns - orignal engine was 5.0 just not HO - also it now has a T5 --i expected some idle issues
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 15, 2017, 11:25:44 AM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 15, 2017, 11:25:44 AM
this is the package i have put together
stock HO short block (rebuilt)
motorsport X307 gt-40 heads (alum)
motorsport M-6250-F303 cam
BBK SSI upper/ lower intake
24lbs injectors
BBK 70 mm mass air
70 mm throttle body (lightning)
T5 trans
3:73 gears
stock HO short block (rebuilt)
motorsport X307 gt-40 heads (alum)
motorsport M-6250-F303 cam
BBK SSI upper/ lower intake
24lbs injectors
BBK 70 mm mass air
70 mm throttle body (lightning)
T5 trans
3:73 gears
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 15, 2017, 12:17:39 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 15, 2017, 12:17:39 PM
Pressure test your intake and soap it up. The SSI intake is notorious for leaking. Your setup is mild and should run pretty good. Tuning the injectors would make for stock drivability and fix the open loop cold start overly rich condition. It clears up once you get into closed loop and I imagine you are likely hitting the limits the ECU can correct for.
John
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 15, 2017, 02:50:07 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 15, 2017, 02:50:07 PM
Is it throwing any codes? Check for those first. It may be a mechanical issue or electrical. Pull the codes first and see what you're dealing with. The parts you have are not that radical. The car should run ok without a tune since you're running a calibrated MAF with the injectors.
My Thunderbird (modifications in signature) idling. No tune and driveability is fine.
My Thunderbird (modifications in signature) idling. No tune and driveability is fine.
[video=youtube;Z92w1Y0-E_4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z92w1Y0-E_4[/video]
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 15, 2017, 09:02:47 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 15, 2017, 09:02:47 PM
leaking at the base or some other spot ? i use a spray gasket sealer on each side of the gaskets
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Beau on March 15, 2017, 09:56:50 PM
Post by: Beau on March 15, 2017, 09:56:50 PM
Is the mass air meter calibrated for the 24's?
The symptoms you describe sound a lot like an unmatched meter............
The symptoms you describe sound a lot like an unmatched meter............
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 16, 2017, 07:31:27 AM
Post by: Skunk on March 16, 2017, 07:31:27 AM
Quote from: 20thanvcat;459778
leaking at the base or some other spot ? i use a spray gasket sealer on each side of the gaskets
Upper to lower manifold. Also look for fuel leaks at the back of the rail.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 16, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on March 16, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;459780
Is the mass air meter calibrated for the 24's?
The symptoms you describe sound a lot like an unmatched meter............
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 16, 2017, 01:19:51 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 16, 2017, 01:19:51 PM
Do you have a picture of the MAF and what intake setup you're using?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 16, 2017, 03:33:34 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 16, 2017, 03:33:34 PM
Should be easy enough to figure out..... Back probe the signal and return on the MAF at idle. A stock 672 RPM should yeild about 0.8 volt if it's a 19# calibration and about 0.6 volt for 24# at same rpm. Its unlikely you can idle that low on a 24# calibrated MAF as it takes you below the programs sweet spot in the Maf transfer so let us know what voltage you see and your idle RPM.
John
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 16, 2017, 06:12:12 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 16, 2017, 06:12:12 PM
mass is calibrated , not sure of the size of throttle body
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 16, 2017, 08:24:16 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 16, 2017, 08:24:16 PM
You need a tune. I have been exactly where you are, and YOU need a tune.
also, you need a 70mm MAF housing with a swappable sample tube, and you need the tube recommended for 19 lb/hr injectors, so you don't have to dick around scaling your MAF transfer table. Calibrated MAFs shag up the load calculation, and by proxy, spark advance.
Buy THIS (http://"http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse-for-fords-p-199.html")
Download THIS (http://"http://www.tunerpro.net/download/SetupTunerProRT_v500_8944.exe")
and THIS (http://"http://www.tunerpro.net/download/bindefs/Ford/GUFB.xdf")
and THIS (http://"https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4pi2v_E11qaZm5JS3VXSVUwVEk/view?usp=sharing")
and THIS (http://"http://www.efidynotuning.com/bins/Bins_GUFB_56k.zip")
Study HERE (http://"http://www.efidynotuning.com/")
and HERE (http://"http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/Main%20Frame.html")
and GO!
also, you need a 70mm MAF housing with a swappable sample tube, and you need the tube recommended for 19 lb/hr injectors, so you don't have to dick around scaling your MAF transfer table. Calibrated MAFs shag up the load calculation, and by proxy, spark advance.
Buy THIS (http://"http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse-for-fords-p-199.html")
Download THIS (http://"http://www.tunerpro.net/download/SetupTunerProRT_v500_8944.exe")
and THIS (http://"http://www.tunerpro.net/download/bindefs/Ford/GUFB.xdf")
and THIS (http://"https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4pi2v_E11qaZm5JS3VXSVUwVEk/view?usp=sharing")
and THIS (http://"http://www.efidynotuning.com/bins/Bins_GUFB_56k.zip")
Study HERE (http://"http://www.efidynotuning.com/")
and HERE (http://"http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/Main%20Frame.html")
and GO!
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 17, 2017, 08:32:08 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 17, 2017, 08:32:08 PM
If one is buying a Quarterhorse you can just skip the calibrated MAF and buy a 90mm Lightning MAF. Since the Quarterhorse can tune that MAF it's usually the best option.
OP: Pull the codes first. Let's see what we're working with. Pull KOEO, KOER, and run a cylinder balance test. Also what is fuel pressure? Engine vacuum? Check all these things before buying any parts.
OP: Pull the codes first. Let's see what we're working with. Pull KOEO, KOER, and run a cylinder balance test. Also what is fuel pressure? Engine vacuum? Check all these things before buying any parts.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 17, 2017, 09:09:52 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 17, 2017, 09:09:52 PM
Quote
If one is buying a Quarterhorse you can just skip the calibrated MAF and buy a 90mm Lightning MAF. Since the Quarterhorse can tune that MAF it's usually the best option.
Or just tune the one you have....... Nothing special about the Lightning MAF. You input the actual flow and adjust from there. A calibrated Maf only causes issues with load, timing, idle , cold/hot starts, tip-in, tip-out, transient fuel, crank fuel, failed Maf and adaptive fuel if you dont tune the Maf AND injectors into the ECU. This is more important with a stick car since it runs unloaded much more often than an auto that masks the issues.
But agreed.....Do the simple stuff first because you can't tune out mechanical issues.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 17, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 17, 2017, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Skunk;459821
Or just tune the one you have....... Nothing special about the Lightning MAF. You input the actual flow and adjust from there. A calibrated Maf only causes issues with load, timing, idle , cold/hot starts, tip-in, tip-out, transient fuel, crank fuel, failed Maf and adaptive fuel if you dont tune the Maf AND injectors into the ECU. This is more important with a stick car since it runs unloaded much more often than an auto that masks the issues.
But agreed.....Do the simple stuff first because you can tune out mechanical issues.
John
Note on the Quarterhorse: you don't flash to it, you load to it and your tune is held in volatile RAM with a backup battery (cr2032) which is now replaceable. The QH is an emulator, not a flash module (why it's better than a twEECer). This is why you can make live changes with it while the engine is running. Keep your current tune backed up to your laptop (and the cloud) always in case after a few years the battery needs replaced.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 11:12:19 AM
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 11:12:19 AM
Lol......Ya I have a little experience. I'm running 42# Injectors and a calibrated blow-through PMAS Maf on my 5.0T Turbocoupe. I needed the calibrated Maf to extend the usable range. In my experience over the years... A 19# calibration will come close to pegging once you do the HCI upgrades then you need a calibrated Maf or a larger pipe to keep it from hitting it's limits.. I always try to tune injectors using the factory 55mm MAF to make sure fuel is controlled though the entire range of the MAF.......Then install the Maf and tune it. It's much easier to tune in when using known variables not to mention even an aftermarket 19# calibration is seldom perfect.
Quarterhorse vs Tweecer..... They both have their place and I use both. I prefer the Tweecer for finished permanent installation but like the Quarterhorse for all the reasons you listed.
John
Quarterhorse vs Tweecer..... They both have their place and I use both. I prefer the Tweecer for finished permanent installation but like the Quarterhorse for all the reasons you listed.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 18, 2017, 12:24:20 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 18, 2017, 12:24:20 PM
Quote from: Skunk;459821
Or just tune the one you have....... Nothing special about the Lightning MAF. You input the actual flow and adjust from there. A calibrated Maf only causes issues with load, timing, idle , cold/hot starts, tip-in, tip-out, transient fuel, crank fuel, failed Maf and adaptive fuel if you dont tune the Maf AND injectors into the ECU. This is more important with a stick car since it runs unloaded much more often than an auto that masks the issues.
But agreed.....Do the simple stuff first because you can tune out mechanical issues.
John
I just recommended the Lightening MAF due to it's known transfer function and it being cheap. Any MAF will work if you know its transfer function. A Pro-M or PMAS MAF usually include a transfer function sheet. The BBK MAF the OP has probably does not have a transfer function sheet and he'd have to create one.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 01:40:42 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 01:40:42 PM
......That quoted post was supposed to say "you CAN'T tune out mechanical issues." I will try to go back and correct it.
Anyway.....Sure the Lightning MAF is known......But only when used in a Lightning. Otherwise it's transfer is a starting point and needs manipulation for proper use in an Eec-iv ECU considering your not using the entire intake from airbox to TB. The eec-v generation of ECU also handles air and fuel differently so the Eec-iv needs more work to get things properly done.
The BBK transfer is easy. They even tell you how to do it on their website. The 24# transfer is simply a ratio of injector change. 19/24. Multiply the stock airflow by the result and tune from there.......Believe me , even having a transfer sheet means squat. A bench flow and installed flow will vary and tuning is always recomended. This is where the C&L sample tube system shines. You can physically alter or change the sample tube to manipulate fueling if you don't want to tune it. It will still screw alot of other things up but it's manageable and can run very well.
John
Anyway.....Sure the Lightning MAF is known......But only when used in a Lightning. Otherwise it's transfer is a starting point and needs manipulation for proper use in an Eec-iv ECU considering your not using the entire intake from airbox to TB. The eec-v generation of ECU also handles air and fuel differently so the Eec-iv needs more work to get things properly done.
The BBK transfer is easy. They even tell you how to do it on their website. The 24# transfer is simply a ratio of injector change. 19/24. Multiply the stock airflow by the result and tune from there.......Believe me , even having a transfer sheet means squat. A bench flow and installed flow will vary and tuning is always recomended. This is where the C&L sample tube system shines. You can physically alter or change the sample tube to manipulate fueling if you don't want to tune it. It will still screw alot of other things up but it's manageable and can run very well.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Beau on March 18, 2017, 03:57:13 PM
Post by: Beau on March 18, 2017, 03:57:13 PM
So how many more horsepower and foot/pound will I pick up by tuning the right way, rather than slapping a MAF cal'd to my 24's?
Mine is (will be, better to say) an occasional driver, 2-3 times a week, no racing, just a fun little car to zip around in back and forth to work. I don't care about mileage, but off idle acceleration and overall drivability needs to be normal. I also don't have a lot of money to throw at it, either in the tuner/tuning components, and the ability to do so myself. (do have a few laptops and am computer savvy, so I could learn how, I reckon..)
My combo is a stock bottom end 5.0, P heads, E cam, cobra intake, 65mm TB, blah blah. The usual, nothing major at all.....
Mine is (will be, better to say) an occasional driver, 2-3 times a week, no racing, just a fun little car to zip around in back and forth to work. I don't care about mileage, but off idle acceleration and overall drivability needs to be normal. I also don't have a lot of money to throw at it, either in the tuner/tuning components, and the ability to do so myself. (do have a few laptops and am computer savvy, so I could learn how, I reckon..)
My combo is a stock bottom end 5.0, P heads, E cam, cobra intake, 65mm TB, blah blah. The usual, nothing major at all.....
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Haystack on March 18, 2017, 04:42:14 PM
Post by: Haystack on March 18, 2017, 04:42:14 PM
I don't see why you would bother to go through the effort of a maf upgrade. Essentially all maf does is measure airflow rather then predict it. It's just adding extra sensors you don't need it you are gonna tune it anyways.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 06:18:31 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 06:18:31 PM
Ive been bored waiting for warmer weather so ok I will bite.
LOL.......absolutely none. Matter of fact your numbers may drop until you tweak the timing tables. You dont need to tune but if you had the ability to look at the raw data like OBDII you would understand why you should.
Garbage input equals garbage output. Think about getting in a elevator every day and pushing the button for the 10th floor except the elevator always takes you to the 9th floor because the elevator thinks the 9th floor IS the 10th floor..... You think your smart and start pushing the button for the 11th floor.......... WTF. You accept this as normal or lol running good .......why??? A calibrated maf without a tune does the exact same thing........ with 24# everything is off by almost 21%. Maybe its my OCD but If I order fries and get onion rings.....I get pissed.
This is where the Tweecer or Quarterhorse comes in. They both give you the ability to look at and log live data from the ECU. With that knowledge you can regain perfect or depending on your ability, near perfect feedback control (closed loop) of your engine. Once you crack that...........move on to the WOT (open loop) power tuning by unlocking the factory warranty safe, mass production tolerant lock down and bleed it for everything you can get.
John
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;459831
So how many more horsepower and foot/pound will I pick up by tuning the right way, rather than slapping a MAF cal'd to my 24's?
LOL.......absolutely none. Matter of fact your numbers may drop until you tweak the timing tables. You dont need to tune but if you had the ability to look at the raw data like OBDII you would understand why you should.
Garbage input equals garbage output. Think about getting in a elevator every day and pushing the button for the 10th floor except the elevator always takes you to the 9th floor because the elevator thinks the 9th floor IS the 10th floor..... You think your smart and start pushing the button for the 11th floor.......... WTF. You accept this as normal or lol running good .......why??? A calibrated maf without a tune does the exact same thing........ with 24# everything is off by almost 21%. Maybe its my OCD but If I order fries and get onion rings.....I get pissed.
This is where the Tweecer or Quarterhorse comes in. They both give you the ability to look at and log live data from the ECU. With that knowledge you can regain perfect or depending on your ability, near perfect feedback control (closed loop) of your engine. Once you crack that...........move on to the WOT (open loop) power tuning by unlocking the factory warranty safe, mass production tolerant lock down and bleed it for everything you can get.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 18, 2017, 06:50:16 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 18, 2017, 06:50:16 PM
SOOOOOO ran flash out == i have codes for right and left 02s lean --- car is running super rich
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 07:23:54 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 18, 2017, 07:23:54 PM
LOL.....ya sorry for the hyjack.
Was that a running or stored code. Are you sure its rich......do you have a wideband or did you read the plugs? You cant judge based on smell or burning eyes.
John
Was that a running or stored code. Are you sure its rich......do you have a wideband or did you read the plugs? You cant judge based on smell or burning eyes.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 18, 2017, 08:23:54 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 18, 2017, 08:23:54 PM
Quote from: 20thanvcat;459839
SOOOOOO ran flash out == i have codes for right and left 02s lean --- car is running super rich
If you have lean codes (41, 91 KOER) it might smell rich. If the car is registering lean the computer will dump more fuel.
So causes could be:
Vacuum leak
Bad O2 sensor ground
Exhaust leak
Line between the throttle body and valve cover missing (vacuum leak)
Can you put a vacuum gauge on the car and report the reading? I bet your engine has a vacuum leak somewhere.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 19, 2017, 09:04:52 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 19, 2017, 09:04:52 PM
so pulled codes (flash out ) KOER i have lean non switching codes on o2,s both banks --- so question is when the o2,s fail they fail in lean mode ? so they richen fuel to comp ?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 19, 2017, 10:23:43 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 19, 2017, 10:23:43 PM
No not always. In this case the ECU cant get the o2s to switch upwards past about 0.45v by adding fuel. After so many cycles it gives up and you start running off the open loop fuel table with no correction. Depending on how accurate your MAF is will determain how rich or lean you run.
The fact that its both banks makes me wonder what you did with the HEGO ground. You know ....the orange wire that is supposed to be attached to a stud at the back of the intake. I suggest you take out the o2s, wipe them down and wire brush the bung to ensure a good ground to the pipe if the Orange wire is good. How old are they?.....they may simply be done and time for new ones. You can bench test them while you have them out if you wish but it may be best to replace them anyway.
John
The fact that its both banks makes me wonder what you did with the HEGO ground. You know ....the orange wire that is supposed to be attached to a stud at the back of the intake. I suggest you take out the o2s, wipe them down and wire brush the bung to ensure a good ground to the pipe if the Orange wire is good. How old are they?.....they may simply be done and time for new ones. You can bench test them while you have them out if you wish but it may be best to replace them anyway.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 19, 2017, 10:39:58 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 19, 2017, 10:39:58 PM
I also think you should check the O2 ground. I had a Mark VII that threw the O2 lean codes as a result of the O2 ground wire being broken.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 19, 2017, 10:43:07 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 19, 2017, 10:43:07 PM
ground is attched to back of the head , they are very old and im sure have had coolant ect spilled on them ( car sat in the shop for about 10 years apart)
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 20, 2017, 08:35:09 AM
Post by: Skunk on March 20, 2017, 08:35:09 AM
Should be 2 grounds......Braided strap head to firewall on driver side and orange wire from ECU to stud at back passenger side of the upper to lower intake. There should also be the link bar joining the upper passenger side to the lower driver side on that same stud.
John
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 20, 2017, 09:59:10 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 20, 2017, 09:59:10 PM
braded strap has been replaced with a heavy gauge wire from body to block (battery has been relocated to trunk) not familiar with the "link bar" you are referring to , do you have a pic ?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Haystack on March 21, 2017, 02:02:41 AM
Post by: Haystack on March 21, 2017, 02:02:41 AM
It's a weird metal bracket that attaches to the intake stud behind the upper intake.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 21, 2017, 04:33:47 AM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 21, 2017, 04:33:47 AM
looked like a horse shoe with two eyelets ? i have not seen one on a car in a long time - and i believe they were to keep wires from chafing on the back of the intake
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: V8Demon on March 21, 2017, 01:44:13 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 21, 2017, 01:44:13 PM
You sure the O2 sensor connectors are reading the correct banks?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 21, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 21, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
interesting , left could be reading right and right left ? i did not realize they could be "backwards"
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: V8Demon on March 23, 2017, 01:00:49 PM
Post by: V8Demon on March 23, 2017, 01:00:49 PM
Yup. Connectors are the same. The wiring for each side is a specific color. Pull up a Chilton diagram and check ;)
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 23, 2017, 06:42:43 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 23, 2017, 06:42:43 PM
anyone have a pin out of connector 429 (o2 harness) its a 8 pin connector , pin 49 is orange (ground) in #2 slot of connector , my right o2 pin 29 is dg/p in #6 slot, db/lg left o2 pin#43, gy/y in pin #4 , pin 44 gy/r ---i have three pins left #1 r/b, pin 7 -g/w, pin #8 black --can anyone tell me what pin is 44 in the connector ? i have a 87 cougar evtm and the harness is diffrent color on this pin only
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 23, 2017, 07:28:32 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 23, 2017, 07:28:32 PM
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 23, 2017, 07:37:35 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 23, 2017, 07:37:35 PM
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 23, 2017, 08:59:40 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 23, 2017, 08:59:40 PM
Two things I see:
1. Is that MAF calibrated for a conical filter clamped to the end? If not it will mess with the signal.
2. You don't have a line from the throttle body nipple to a valve cover. This is vital for proper air metering in a MAF system.
1. Is that MAF calibrated for a conical filter clamped to the end? If not it will mess with the signal.
2. You don't have a line from the throttle body nipple to a valve cover. This is vital for proper air metering in a MAF system.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 24, 2017, 06:40:58 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 24, 2017, 06:40:58 AM
If you still have the PCV valve connected, and a open breather cap instead of having that hose connected, you've created an unmetered air leak. Think of it like a vacuum leak though the crankcase. Because of this, the engine is breathing air through the crankcase that hasn't been measured my the MAF. Your MAF reading ends up skewed downward and that will contribute to less fuel and a lower calculated load, which goes down a whole line of now inaccurate math, you end up without enough advance under load, weird injector timing, and less torque. I'm sure there is more, but that's all I can come up with on a half cup of coffee.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 24, 2017, 07:54:47 AM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 24, 2017, 07:54:47 AM
The pcv is located in the back of the lower intake but both valve covers are essentially open to the atmosphere -- so i should have the tube from the tb to a valve cover and seal the other ?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 24, 2017, 08:23:36 AM
Post by: thunderjet302 on March 24, 2017, 08:23:36 AM
Quote from: 20thanvcat;459938
The pcv is located in the back of the lower intake but both valve covers are essentially open to the atmosphere -- so i should have the tube from the tb to a valve cover and seal the other ?
Yes. Cap one valve cover and run a line from the other to the throttle body nipple, like stock. As stated above without the line the computer's load and air/fuel ratio calculations will be off.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 26, 2017, 07:02:16 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 26, 2017, 07:02:16 PM
anyone have pics of how they set up the tube from the throttle body , i see some fittings that look like hollow pcv valves into a grommit - and i have seen them into a nipple on a stack with what looks like a filter - that would still be open ?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 26, 2017, 07:29:02 PM
Post by: Skunk on March 26, 2017, 07:29:02 PM
Either will work. Doesn't matter how you do it as long as you close the loop. Seeing you have aftermarket valve covers I would use the breather/filter type with the nipple on both covers and Tee them to a smaller line to the TB.
I drilled and tapped mine and theaded a barb type fitting in.....Tied it all to catch can then back to the TB before I changed things up and went turbo.
John
I drilled and tapped mine and theaded a barb type fitting in.....Tied it all to catch can then back to the TB before I changed things up and went turbo.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 26, 2017, 08:34:48 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on March 26, 2017, 08:34:48 PM
ok now you just threw a wrench into the mix --i have twin turbo set up but i wanted to get it running correctly first , your saying there is a diffrent setup for turbo ?
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 26, 2017, 08:48:33 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on March 26, 2017, 08:48:33 PM
If I were going to run a turbo setup, I'd run speed density instead of MAF. There a a number of really good reasons why SD is better for Forced Air, you can do your own research. I will say, since I'll assume you're familiar with EcoBoost, that ALL EB engines Ford builds are speed density. It looks like they have a MAF; but it's a MAP, 3 of them to be exact. One in the inlet duct, one between the turbo(s) and throttle blade, and one in the intake after the throttle blade.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Skunk on March 27, 2017, 07:52:10 AM
Post by: Skunk on March 27, 2017, 07:52:10 AM
The PCV system only needs to be modified if your set up is configured as a blow-through Maf arrangement...... You will need to get creative to keep from pressurizing the crankcase. If draw through......You only need to relocate the TB line somewhere after the Maf and before the turbo.
Now that we know where your going.........I have to tell you that 24# injectors won't cut it and tuning in my opinion is mandatory unless your intentions are track duty driving only.
I agree with the above post about running a SD system but you can't compare today's tech to what's available for these old cars. Seeing as your going to require a tune eventually I highly recommend you spend your money on any of the Megasquirt PNP options including the PIMP from Stinger. Believe me by the time you spend the money getting it to run right on the stock ECU......You will be kicking yourself for spending more than you needed to.........Yup, I'm still kicking myself but Im a bit OCD and got things working very well with MAF and tuning the stock ECU myself.
John
Now that we know where your going.........I have to tell you that 24# injectors won't cut it and tuning in my opinion is mandatory unless your intentions are track duty driving only.
I agree with the above post about running a SD system but you can't compare today's tech to what's available for these old cars. Seeing as your going to require a tune eventually I highly recommend you spend your money on any of the Megasquirt PNP options including the PIMP from Stinger. Believe me by the time you spend the money getting it to run right on the stock ECU......You will be kicking yourself for spending more than you needed to.........Yup, I'm still kicking myself but Im a bit OCD and got things working very well with MAF and tuning the stock ECU myself.
John
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on April 02, 2017, 04:30:54 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on April 02, 2017, 04:30:54 PM
Ok replaced 84-85 valve covers (butterfly type oil cap) to newer style grommet sealed type, installed a tube from throttle body to valve cover (cut the bottom off a pcv valve ) and went back to stock air cleaner box - waiting on a collor to connect mass air to air cleaner box - then ready to take it for a ride -also recoleaned and covered ego harness and bought new egos ==hope this works ;):punchballs:
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on April 04, 2017, 08:05:38 PM
Post by: 20thanvcat on April 04, 2017, 08:05:38 PM
update -- it is amazing what a little tube from the intake to the valve cover will do as far as performace ----many thanks for all who gave input , car runs so much better , only problem now is tires are more expensive to replace --but thats a good problem (oh yea now heater core is leaking --oh well )
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 06, 2017, 12:26:22 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 06, 2017, 12:26:22 PM
That little tube is very important in a MAF system as you have found. Sometimes it's the little things.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: 20thanvcat on April 11, 2017, 10:12:17 AM
Post by: 20thanvcat on April 11, 2017, 10:12:17 AM
yes - im very old school if it has a carb i can make it run , but this fuel infected is a whole new deal , and to modify it even more diffacult . again thank you for all your input
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: Beau on April 11, 2017, 07:55:03 PM
Post by: Beau on April 11, 2017, 07:55:03 PM
It's easier than switching a bunch of shiznit over to a carb, though. At least, it is if it's already SEFI...such as an '87 or 88 Tbird 5.0....
Say you have an '88 Sport. It's already got the efi 5.0.....you can upgrade it easily. Change the EEC, run yourself a wire for the mass air meter back to the eec, and drop in the new/upgraded engine. Nothing else needs to change.
My big riding mower is even fuel injected....love it. starts up in the coldest or hottest days, never vapor locks, and even has a provision for priming should it run out of gas.
My first ride was carbed, had points. I quickly learned to keep a few sets of points in a zip lock bag, along with a feeler gauge. Yeah...that shiznit sucked. 24 years later, I can still remember dealing with the leaky carb always needing adjusted. No thanks. lol
Say you have an '88 Sport. It's already got the efi 5.0.....you can upgrade it easily. Change the EEC, run yourself a wire for the mass air meter back to the eec, and drop in the new/upgraded engine. Nothing else needs to change.
My big riding mower is even fuel injected....love it. starts up in the coldest or hottest days, never vapor locks, and even has a provision for priming should it run out of gas.
My first ride was carbed, had points. I quickly learned to keep a few sets of points in a zip lock bag, along with a feeler gauge. Yeah...that shiznit sucked. 24 years later, I can still remember dealing with the leaky carb always needing adjusted. No thanks. lol
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 12, 2017, 10:18:49 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 12, 2017, 10:18:49 PM
Quote from: 20thanvcat;460288
yes - im very old school if it has a carb i can make it run , but this fuel infected is a whole new deal , and to modify it even more diffacult . again thank you for all your input
I've never owned anything with a carb so EFI all the way for me. Heck the EFI on a Fox car is much more primitive and easier to work on than the modern stuff.
Title: SEFI conversion to MAS
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 13, 2017, 06:54:31 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 13, 2017, 06:54:31 AM
I bought my first car in 1966 and can say, compared to EFI carbs are a PITA!!! Of course if one won't take a little time to learn the basics of a old EEC-IV system a carb may look pretty good... Yes most carbs are simple, but they won't begin to give the drivability of FI, especially in the first 10 minutes or so of a cold start... That shiznittin' little Comet is just pure evil when cold but to be fair the heads don't have heat risers, really isn't something I want to think about driving if under 50*...