Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 08, 2016, 06:55:24 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 08, 2016, 06:55:24 PM
Hey guys,
the voltage gauage on my tbird was reading low, pulled out the multimeter: got like 12V across the battery with the car running. So i figured my 3G alternator died :( went out today to get my alternator tested at advance and it passed. Had the battery tested aswell and they said it just needed recharged. I cleaned up the battery terminals with a wire brush. For the meantime the battery will sit on a charger over night. Anything else worth checking?
Thanks
the voltage gauage on my tbird was reading low, pulled out the multimeter: got like 12V across the battery with the car running. So i figured my 3G alternator died :( went out today to get my alternator tested at advance and it passed. Had the battery tested aswell and they said it just needed recharged. I cleaned up the battery terminals with a wire brush. For the meantime the battery will sit on a charger over night. Anything else worth checking?
Thanks
Title: Charging System
Post by: deathbypsi on November 08, 2016, 10:37:15 PM
Post by: deathbypsi on November 08, 2016, 10:37:15 PM
Unbolt and clean all round contacts you can find.
Title: Charging System
Post by: Haystack on November 08, 2016, 11:24:26 PM
Post by: Haystack on November 08, 2016, 11:24:26 PM
Did you run a fuse or fuseable link? 12volts at idle sounds like it's just running off the battery. Seconds after a cold start battery voltage will slowly raise from 11.5 up to 12 depending on its overall health and tempetures. Anything below 12.5 the battery is discharging, anything above that and it's getting harged back up. Even a fully dead battery should read around 13v at idle and half charged should easily reach 13.5-14.
My 3g was 13.8 when tested at idle with everything turned on.
My 3g was 13.8 when tested at idle with everything turned on.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 09, 2016, 07:28:04 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 09, 2016, 07:28:04 PM
I cleaned the contacts with warm water and a wire brush. Got it all really clean. Yesterday i checked and I have continuity, a couple ohms of resisitance, from the "hot" post of the alternator wiring to the positive lead going to the battery. Got everything tested again today at different shops. Alternator passed again. Battery measured bad at auto zone, nearly bad at advance, and just barely good at sear's. So i think im getting a new battery. The current one is 4 yrs old and just before all this i left the dome light on over the weekend. So i think i killed it :(
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 09, 2016, 07:48:37 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 09, 2016, 07:48:37 PM
Anyone got opinions on best batteries????
Title: Charging System
Post by: Haystack on November 09, 2016, 09:03:18 PM
Post by: Haystack on November 09, 2016, 09:03:18 PM
I buy whatever is cheap. I think ive gotten 3-4 years on walmart batteries which are about half the price of parts stores. The parts stores ones usually last 4-5 years for me as long as they arent abused.
Top off the battery overnight and check voltage. Then unhook cables and see where it's at after 24 hours. A drop of more then .2 volts means its junk, especially if it drops below 12 volts. You can also check cranking voltage drop. Anything below about 8 volts usually means a bad battery.
Top off the battery overnight and check voltage. Then unhook cables and see where it's at after 24 hours. A drop of more then .2 volts means its junk, especially if it drops below 12 volts. You can also check cranking voltage drop. Anything below about 8 volts usually means a bad battery.
Title: Charging System
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 10, 2016, 01:47:27 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 10, 2016, 01:47:27 PM
Optima Red Top, eight years and still going. Biggest thing with any battery is buying a good charges that will desulfate the battery. I thought my other Red Top had died so I borrowed my father's AGM battery charger that desulfates and put it on the battery for a couple of days. Two years later it is still going strong so I am a believer in these chargers and bought one. Charge my battery with it every so often and zero problems since then. There are a slew of chargers out there that claim they can do this but the only two I know for sure that can do it are the ones from BatteryMINDer (http://www.batteryminders.com/) and Optima. You can find the BatteryMINDer brand on Amazon fairly cheap but some will say buying a new battery every three or four years is cheaper. I would agree up until that battery stranded my ass somewhere.
Title: Charging System
Post by: jcassity on November 10, 2016, 02:19:53 PM
Post by: jcassity on November 10, 2016, 02:19:53 PM
interstate battery
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 10, 2016, 04:53:06 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 10, 2016, 04:53:06 PM
yeah, ive looked at both interstate and optima. But ive heard that optimas really need that special charger, whereas for the time being my only charger is a battery tender. so that puts out like 1.5amps. trickle charger
Title: Charging System
Post by: V8Demon on November 10, 2016, 11:07:11 PM
Post by: V8Demon on November 10, 2016, 11:07:11 PM
The Optima charger are cheap enough and work on non-AGM batteries as well. It's worth it.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 16, 2016, 06:27:16 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 16, 2016, 06:27:16 PM
which optima battery do you run? Part #? cuz the autoparts stores say an optima isnt a direct fit.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 06:39:35 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 06:39:35 PM
UPDATE: Put in a brand new optima battery. the voltage gauge still reads low. with the car running i read 11.99 volts across the terminals and with the car off, i read 12.5volts. Any ideas? my alternator has been tested at advance once: passed. and tested at autozone: passed.
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 19, 2016, 07:17:59 PM
Post by: softtouch on November 19, 2016, 07:17:59 PM
Is the alternator wired-up as shown in the pic?
With the engine off do you have battery voltage on the alternator B+ output terminal.
If yes, Turn the key on and don't start the engine. Is the alt/Batt warning light on?
If yes, start the engine, does the warning light go off?
Let us know what you see.
With the engine off do you have battery voltage on the alternator B+ output terminal.
If yes, Turn the key on and don't start the engine. Is the alt/Batt warning light on?
If yes, start the engine, does the warning light go off?
Let us know what you see.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 07:47:23 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 07:47:23 PM
Mine is wired like this. I followed an install video from LateModelResto. The heavy duty red wire goes to the postive battery terminal.
So yes, I have voltage at the B+ terminal with the car off.
With the car on, not running, voltage gauge reads low and flashes at me. [full digital cluster]
Starting the engine, voltage gauge still reads low, flashes at me
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 07:51:39 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 07:51:39 PM
This is the video that I used for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COPftLQiCUY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COPftLQiCUY
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 19, 2016, 10:12:59 PM
Post by: softtouch on November 19, 2016, 10:12:59 PM
Unplug the regulator connector on the alternator.
Check for battery voltage on the yellow wire with the engine off.
Turn the key on, don't start the engine. Check for voltage on the green wire.
Check for battery voltage on the yellow wire with the engine off.
Turn the key on, don't start the engine. Check for voltage on the green wire.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 11:26:34 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 11:26:34 PM
Confirmed, 12.5 volts on the yellow wire with the key off.
However, only 0.5volts on the green one with key on, engine off.
So what does that mean?
-Kyle
However, only 0.5volts on the green one with key on, engine off.
So what does that mean?
-Kyle
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 19, 2016, 11:50:13 PM
Post by: softtouch on November 19, 2016, 11:50:13 PM
Quote from: kylesburrell;458068
Confirmed, 12.5 volts on the yellow wire with the key off.
However, only 0.5volts on the green one with key on, engine off.
So what does that mean?
-Kyle
What was the car originally? Year, engine and instrument cluster?
If you have changed the cluster. what is the cluster from?
Is the original cable harness and connectors still in the car?
Do you have the instructions used to change the cluster?
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 11:58:41 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 19, 2016, 11:58:41 PM
originally 1986 tbird elan 5.0, AOD, this cluster was replaced years ago cuz the original one from 86 failed. Ive also put LED 914 bulbs in said cluster to help with illumination
I havent messed with the wiring since last fall. So thats why I thought it was weird that it is acting up NOW.
-Kyle
I havent messed with the wiring since last fall. So thats why I thought it was weird that it is acting up NOW.
-Kyle
Title: Charging System
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2016, 12:18:19 AM
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2016, 12:18:19 AM
Does the red battery light turn on? This is the wire that turn on the alternator. There should be a resistor on that wire somewhere in case the light bulb burns out. You essentially bypassed the bulb by putting in led. Leds are light emitting diodes, they stop power from flowing one direction. Could be as simple as an led being installed backwards. Try a regular 194 bulb.
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 12:27:22 AM
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 12:27:22 AM
Voltage on the green wire is required to signal the voltage regulator to turn on the alternator.
I am pretty sure the stock 86 5.0L had a alternator warning light on the cluster. The keyed voltage for the green wire to the regulator comes through the warning
light bulb and it's parallel resister.
Was the cluster replaced with a stock 86 cluster or something else? Did you do the job?
How come the problem is just showing up now if it started with the cluster change?
If you don't drive it much, you could have been running on the battery.
Or, some times these alternators can turn themselves on if they have enough residual magnetism and you rev them up high enough.
I am pretty sure the stock 86 5.0L had a alternator warning light on the cluster. The keyed voltage for the green wire to the regulator comes through the warning
light bulb and it's parallel resister.
Was the cluster replaced with a stock 86 cluster or something else? Did you do the job?
How come the problem is just showing up now if it started with the cluster change?
If you don't drive it much, you could have been running on the battery.
Or, some times these alternators can turn themselves on if they have enough residual magnetism and you rev them up high enough.
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 12:39:20 AM
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 12:39:20 AM
Quote from: Haystack;458071
Does the red battery light turn on? This is the wire that turn on the alternator. There should be a resistor on that wire somewhere in case the light bulb burns out. You essentially bypassed the bulb by putting in led. Leds are light emitting diodes, they stop power from flowing one direction. Could be as simple as an led being installed backwards. Try a regular 194 bulb.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 01:05:58 AM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 01:05:58 AM
Quote from: Haystack;458071
Does the red battery light turn on? This is the wire that turn on the alternator. There should be a resistor on that wire somewhere in case the light bulb burns out. You essentially bypassed the bulb by putting in led. Leds are light emitting diodes, they stop power from flowing one direction. Could be as simple as an led being installed backwards. Try a regular 194 bulb.
So with the key on, the red E-brake light comes on, as well as the red "fasten seatbelt" light. I should clarify: when I put in the LED 194 bulbs, I only put them behind the 3 main modules, the green digital displays in the cluster
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 01:10:08 AM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: softtouch;458072
Voltage on the green wire is required to signal the voltage regulator to turn on the alternator.
I am pretty sure the stock 86 5.0L had a alternator warning light on the cluster. The keyed voltage for the green wire to the regulator comes through the warning
light bulb and it's parallel resister.
Was the cluster replaced with a stock 86 cluster or something else? Did you do the job?
How come the problem is just showing up now if it started with the cluster change?
If you don't drive it much, you could have been running on the battery.
Or, some times these alternators can turn themselves on if they have enough residual magnetism and you rev them up high enough.
the cluster came from a similar year lincoln i think. But again, the cluster was replaced 3 years ago. Yes i installed it, I didnt trust anyone else to take it apart and not break the 30yr old plastic.
And I do usually drive the tbird, just havent recently, have had 2 brake issues in the last several months. And I have a truck, so i never HAVE to fix the tbird.
Title: Charging System
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2016, 01:36:00 AM
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2016, 01:36:00 AM
Check the ignition switch. From memory, it pretty much run straight through the ignition switch to the red battery light turn on to the alt. I think you have it narrowed down pretty good.
Try putting a jumper to the green wire under the hood and see if ya can send 12 volts to make it turn on, this will guarantee that its in this part of the system.
Oh, and im not up that late... Im mst so it was only 10:30pm when I posted.
Try putting a jumper to the green wire under the hood and see if ya can send 12 volts to make it turn on, this will guarantee that its in this part of the system.
Oh, and im not up that late... Im mst so it was only 10:30pm when I posted.
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 03:51:21 AM
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 03:51:21 AM
What you have is a common problem people have when they swap in a cluster that does not have an alternator warning light.
The fix is to find the green/red stripe wire on one of the cluster connectors. Cut it and splice it to the gray/yellow stripe keyed power wire.
Some people are more comfortable connecting the wires through a 500 ohm resister, rather that a direct connection.
I personally am not convinced it makes any difference.
If you find the green/red wire on pin 4, the gray/yellow wire will be on pin 6.
If you find the green/red wire on pin 10, the gray/yellow wire will be on pin 11.
The fix is to find the green/red stripe wire on one of the cluster connectors. Cut it and splice it to the gray/yellow stripe keyed power wire.
Some people are more comfortable connecting the wires through a 500 ohm resister, rather that a direct connection.
I personally am not convinced it makes any difference.
If you find the green/red wire on pin 4, the gray/yellow wire will be on pin 6.
If you find the green/red wire on pin 10, the gray/yellow wire will be on pin 11.
Title: Charging System
Post by: Tbird232ci on November 20, 2016, 05:22:23 AM
Post by: Tbird232ci on November 20, 2016, 05:22:23 AM
Do you sit with an EVTM in your lap?
Title: Charging System
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2016, 09:59:15 AM
Post by: jcassity on November 20, 2016, 09:59:15 AM
Quote from: Tbird232ci;458089
Do you sit with an EVTM in your lap?
we have a few years scanned and up on various cloud locations as well.
Title: Charging System
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 20, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 20, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
Quote from: softtouch;458080
Some people are more comfortable connecting the wires through a 500 ohm resister, rather that a direct connection.
I personally am not convinced it makes any difference.
I'm in favor of some sort of current limiting, at least with resistor wiring won't likely burn in main harness if there is a short to ground at alt... Doesn't have to be 500 ohms, circuit is stupid works just as well with anything between probably 100 & 500 ohms... If bulb is used, parallel resistor should be included in case lamp burns out, that requires a fairly high value resistor as lamp will be dim with a low value... Old stuff with mechanical regulator generally used 15 ohms in this position but had to pull in relay contact...
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 11:55:54 AM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 11:55:54 AM
Quote from: softtouch;458080
What you have is a common problem people have when they swap in a cluster that does not have an alternator warning light.
The fix is to find the green/red stripe wire on one of the cluster connectors. Cut it and splice it to the gray/yellow stripe keyed power wire.
Some people are more comfortable connecting the wires through a 500 ohm resister, rather that a direct connection.
I personally am not convinced it makes any difference.
If you find the green/red wire on pin 4, the gray/yellow wire will be on pin 6.
If you find the green/red wire on pin 10, the gray/yellow wire will be on pin 11.
Hmmm, im really impressed with how knowledgeable you are. So just add a resistor to bridge green/red stripe wire AND gray/yellowstripe wire.
And, how have I been driving the car like this for 3 years? I might also check my crimp connections for the 3G alt. wiring.
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 02:45:53 PM
Post by: softtouch on November 20, 2016, 02:45:53 PM
Quote from: kylesburrell;458106
Hmmm, im really impressed with how knowledgeable you are. So just add a resistor to bridge green/red stripe wire AND gray/yellowstripe wire.
And, how have I been driving the car like this for 3 years? I might also check my crimp connections for the 3G alt. wiring.
If you are just being a snarky ass hole, go shag yourself.
Since you don't have or won't share any information about cluster you have in the car, there is no way anybody can buttstuffyze what's going on.
The green wire may be hooked to something that under some conditions puts a voltage on the wire.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 04:03:10 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: softtouch;458050
Is the alternator wired-up as shown in the pic?
With the engine off do you have battery voltage on the alternator B+ output terminal.
If yes, Turn the key on and don't start the engine. Is the alt/Batt warning light on?
If yes, start the engine, does the warning light go off?
Let us know what you see.
Is the yellow wire supposed to go to the B+ terminal? Cuz I connected yellow to yellow on my existing alt wiring. So thats where mine is different. Good? Bad?
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 04:05:15 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 04:05:15 PM
Quote from: softtouch;458111
If you appreciate the help. you are welcome.
If you are just being a snarky ass hole, go shag yourself.
Since you don't have or won't share any information about cluster you have in the car, there is no way anybody can buttstuffyze what's going on.
The green wire may be hooked to something that under some conditions puts a voltage on the wire.
Not being snarky, I promise. And so I need to join the green/red stripe wire to the gray one ON the Dash harness? On those big plugs that go into the back?
-Kyle
Title: Charging System
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2016, 09:59:44 PM
Post by: Haystack on November 20, 2016, 09:59:44 PM
That's what I read. Basically you just need 12v power with the key on, where it comes from really doesnt make a difference. You "should" have that resistor or fuse in there somewhere just in case, but almost every key on curcuit has a fuse anyways.
I still recommend jumping it under the hood to make sure the alt turns on. A .5v reading on that green wire could be a short, say you tugged on a wire or it got chaffed some how and is now grounding out.
I still recommend jumping it under the hood to make sure the alt turns on. A .5v reading on that green wire could be a short, say you tugged on a wire or it got chaffed some how and is now grounding out.
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 11:23:02 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 20, 2016, 11:23:02 PM
Well, heres the culprit. The gray/yellow stripe wire was free to back out of the connector going into the cluster. Not surprised, the plastic that holds them in place is 30 years old. A couple drops of super glue, and fixed! 14.5 volts with engine on.
Thanks softtouch, for all your insight. you got me started down the right path. And thanks everyone else! glad to know there are people willing to offer advice!
-Kyle
Title: Charging System
Post by: jcassity on November 21, 2016, 09:43:16 AM
Post by: jcassity on November 21, 2016, 09:43:16 AM
so,,, you have a full digital cluster???????
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 21, 2016, 03:46:08 PM
Post by: softtouch on November 21, 2016, 03:46:08 PM
Quote from: kylesburrell;458115
Is the yellow wire supposed to go to the B+ terminal? Cuz I connected yellow to yellow on my existing alt wiring. So thats where mine is different. Good? Bad?
In fact it is better than going directly to the B+ terminal. The voltage on the yellow wire is what the regulator "looks" at to regulate the alternator output voltage. The designers wanted to "look" at the voltage closer to the load so the regulator can compensate for any loss of voltage between the alternator output and the load.
Do you now have an alternator warning light?
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 21, 2016, 08:34:58 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 21, 2016, 08:34:58 PM
Quote from: jcassity;458146
so,,, you have a full digital cluster???????
Yes sir!
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 21, 2016, 08:36:46 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 21, 2016, 08:36:46 PM
Quote from: softtouch;458165
Do you now have an alternator warning light?
Is the equipped with one? I dont think so, I have a full digital cluster, so the voltage gauge just reads low and flashes a battery symbol at me lol.
Title: Charging System
Post by: jcassity on November 22, 2016, 10:33:18 AM
Post by: jcassity on November 22, 2016, 10:33:18 AM
Quote from: kylesburrell;458168
Is the equipped with one? I dont think so, I have a full digital cluster, so the voltage gauge just reads low and flashes a battery symbol at me lol.
correct, no batt warning light , there is an empty socket available to isolate and make it so if you would like one.
thats what i did, i interrupted the flex print and put the empty socket to use and wired in the standard cluster warning light ckt. i am also full digi dash on one of my fox's
next time mention the starwars cluster you have when posting odd ball happenings... and make use of the EVTMs below we share.
Title: Charging System
Post by: softtouch on November 22, 2016, 04:03:29 PM
Post by: softtouch on November 22, 2016, 04:03:29 PM
Quote from: kylesburrell;458168
Is the equipped with one? I dont think so, I have a full digital cluster, so the voltage gauge just reads low and flashes a battery symbol at me lol.
I think the battery symbol may be your warning light.
It didn't go away after you fixed the wire at the connector?
Title: Charging System
Post by: kylesburrell on November 22, 2016, 07:03:57 PM
Post by: kylesburrell on November 22, 2016, 07:03:57 PM
yeah its all fixed now!