Hi; first ill list performance mods
1 headers and flowmasters
2 msd coil
3 HO intake 65mm TB
ok heres the story i got this car with 195,000 on odometer, but car doesnt run like it, i noticed when i got it none of the gauges worked, so i bought all new sensors and found that sensors on car where for a non gauge car, so that leads me to believe engine has been swapped. i removed smog pump, car ran better. deleted egr, because it was bad, car runs better, installed headers, down pipes have no 02 bungs so no 02 sensors, car runs better yet. car has NEVER idled correctly to high or to low so disconnected IAC today and set idle, no more idle issues and car runs even better now. im wondering if somebody put in a new ecm for like a tbi car or if the motor is non roller. any ideas im puzzled ....LOL.:hick:
Well you should reconnect the oxygen sensors. The car will eventually run bad without them.
Also run codes. See what's up with the computer.
Hi, what i guess im saying is the more stuff i disconnect the car runs alot better, only thing hooked up is the tps sensor and the 2 servos hanging on upper plenum, car has never run better,oh the 02 sensors have been off for 6mnths.
Welcome to 10 mpg. The car won't run right without them.
Pull the kick panel, get the computer code, check firing order and injectors. Mileage really doesnt matter, the condition of the engine does. My car has 333k miles on it and will still bark the tires on a hard launch. My first 86 had 200+k when I bought it and it would smoke a tire till 40mph. It still had stock spark plug wires from 1985 on it. These cars are really, really easy to make run right and with the e10 here I can bump timing up till it won't pass emissions without pinging.
I've bypassed my smog pump because it locked up on me. Cant tell any difference, same with egr on my last car, it only had o2's and map sensor and passed emissions but failed visual for the bypassed smog.
No o2 may make 15-18 mpg but they'll do 25 with, I gotten over 26 with mine and 3.73 gears... A leaking EGR will give idle issues and maybe at WOT if it really bad, but disconnecting it won't fix those problems... Correct adj of base idle and setting TPS voltage around .9v fixes most idle issues...
Looks like lots of hacking going on here...
Hook all your stuff back up. EVERYTHING.
Read through the following 3 links, please:
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,849.0.html
Have a good one.
Hey; im not getting worse gas mileage its actually better, and alot more power and idles perfectly smooth, no surges. thats whats puzzling me, its the best its ever ran since i got the car. spark plugs are nice and tan, i even have the timing at 12 instead of 10. would a non roller motor make the difference?
Im gonna pull intake this weekend, has small oil leak at front corner, and will run block # like i said before i think motor has been changed because of the sensors all being wrong.
What spark plugs does your engine use.??? Other than '86 HO, only the '86 to '91(I'm incl full size) So 5.0 use the ¾" reach plugs...
Sounds very interesting. I'll be curious to see what you find out.
Hi' i use autolite platinums they are a 5/8 peanut plug
Hi; ecu seems to be correct E8SF-12A650-A1C, now i gotta get motor #to run it.
What's the firing order on your distributor?
order #15426378
Do this
BEFORE you replace anything.
Hi i see the links you guys have sent, with all hooked up car never had any 'check' engine light, just would never idle correcttly even with new iac, and car always seemed like it was not breathing properly, now it breath good and run strong, thats why it has me puzzled. will find out more about motor tomorrow after i tear off injection.
You need a buddy named B.O.B and a DVOM. I'm curious about where your ECT and HEGOs measure at when both cold and hot. For that, you need a 60-pin breakout box (b.o.b.) I also want to know what your Vref measures out to, KOEO, with everything plugged in vs the way you say it runs best.
You may have lost him lol
Computer number comes up as 89-90 thunder bird 5.0 non h.o. even though that doesn't make any sense. Sounds like a non h.o. ecm, probably stock.
Someone either swapped your engine...OR intake manifold...OR dash cluster. Do you have the digital "Star Wars" dash? Or buttstuffog sweeping speedometer and tach?
Yes the post is hilarious because you just kept disconnecting things. But what's great is this is just another instance that proves how robust EEC-IV is. I did basically all of this too when I was a teenager. Ford built in a lot of "simple failure" modes to keep you on the road so you can limp home. But don't leave it like that, all of these things can be made right as people have talked about above. Follow the directions V8Demon posted. They'll work :)
By that many miles the EGR it has probably gunked up your intake a bit. Fact of life. Disable it if you want to by putting a piece of tape over the port and then reconnecting the vacuum line, but do NOT disconnect the electrical harness plug. The computer needs to know what the valve is doing otherwise you'll have trouble there.
Get some O2 sensor extensions like these: http://www.americanmuscle.com/bbk-o2-extension-harnesses.html This is an annoyance we ALL gotta deal with unfortunately when running headers.
Clean your IAC out good make sure it works. It's not the safest way, but if you're very careful use alligator clips to put 12v from a battery directly to it in VERY SHORT bursts. Make sure it actually moves.
As people have said, do the Base Idle Reset procedure when you've got a known good IAC.
DO NOT delete the EGR in this manner. The car will ping and run like . The proper way to delete the EGR is the remove the valve, position sensor, and the EGR control solenoid and cap the vacuum lines leading to them. Install a block off plate over the hole in the EGR spacer. This will trigger a code and disable EGR function in the computer (i.e. turn off spark advance for functional EGR). You can use one of these eliminator plugs: https://lmr.com/item/LRS-9428A-EP/Mustang-EGR-Eliminator-Plug-86-93 to keep the check engine light off.
Following the procedure Zonda posted will cause the computer to think the EGR valve is functional. This will result in the computer adjusting timing based on a functional EGR system resulting in pinging and driveability issues at part throttle.
The
ONLY proper way to remove the EGR system is to remove all components of the system and block off the flow of exhaust gas at the EGR spacer.
Update, ok this is weird, usually says 302 in the intake valley but it says XXX and it is a roller motor, also on heads only number i could find was 7m15 im assuming thats production date. also on the pad on back of block couldnt find block #, could this be a factory ford replacement motor?
I did remove all components and put a egr block off plate on it.
I've had the EGR disabled that way for years on the red car. The only time I've ever heard pinging with any of my vehicles at low RPMs/speeds was in my 'Vic which ran rich due to speed density + poor-vacuum-camsaft.
The red car, after a long time of running 87 octane, seemed to start pinging at ~5-6K on some LONG high-speed pulls late last fall. I since switched to 93. I don't know how I got away with 87 for so long. Maybe the converter, which doesn't let the motor get lugged very much.
Doesn't the ECU use that position sensor to decide a theoretical exhaust flow and then adjust timing from there?
So if it never sees the valve move, it *should* consider that a failure mode like a broken diaphragm or vac line. Though in this case without an actual vac leak.
How long has that plug been available? Back when I did it what I was told was exactly what I didn't want - that I'd have a CEL and possibly issues because the sensor was not there. FWIW I have run without it before by accident and things weren't exactly bad.
I have never seen a roller block with 302 in the valley, XXX or YYY is the norm...
7M15 is 15th day of Dec, 1987... They are '88 production heads...
You could have measured a push rod to determine if it was roller, approx 1/2" shorter than flat tappet push rods...
Is there a valley spider and lifter dogbones in the lifter valley? Post a pic of you could.
Once you remove the EGR position sensor and the EGR solenoid the computer completely disables the EGR function. Yes it does set codes but they cause NO driveability issues. All the plug does is set a code 33 (evp stuck) which disables the EGR function and doesn't light the check engine light.
I eliminated the EGR system per my above post and have had no issues. It is the approved method of sbftech EEC-IV guru Joel5.0. If the EGR on your red Cougar isn't removed in the fashion I have listed above I suggest you change it to match what I have done. It is the only correct way to remove the EGR function from an EEC-IV 5.0 car.
I should not that blocking the EGR gases and not removing the vacuum from the EGR system allows the system to operate. This means that the computer assumes that EGR gasses are flowing into the intake even though the passage is blocked. This can cause pinging as the computer actually adds more timing with EGR gasses flowing. Without the exhaust gas present to cool the combustion chamber knock will occur with the advanced timing.
Hi; yes it does have the spider and roller lifters, and they are def XXX not YYY im wondering if its a ford replacement block? all back together now, i hooked back up IAC and did all settings. next project is to replace timing chain, has a little play, got a nice gear drive for it.
I disabled EGR in my tune. Way easier than actually putting tools to the car...
Right, this is basically why I did what I did. Took 3 seconds, cost me nothing and avoided that dangerous condition.
I didn't even know the ECU could disable EGR function (which was why I left EVP connected).
Come to think of it, I do have an occasional hesitation that lasts between maybe 1/2 pedal and until I get almost to the floor. I'm wondering if it's not
adding timing because the EVP is claiming we're already at WOT.
I'll probably cut out the pins or maaaaaybe find a place to hide the plug. I do prefer the look of every factory piece being in place, especially for the sleeper effect I've constructed for this car. :D
EVP stuck must be the result of an open circuit. I wonder why some people report a CEL...possibly certain year ECU's flag that one.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/142371-egr-delete-right-way.html
Got off my lazy ass and did some searching. Took only a minute ironically. Looking at Joel's post it sounds like what I've done is perfectly acceptable.
"not having the EGR system operational (= any EGR failure logged).... will cause an automatic EGR (http://"http://rover.ebay.com/rover/13/0/19/DealFrame/DealFrame.cmp?bm=234&BEFID=96477&acode=255&code=255&aon=&crawler_id=530253&dealId=pt2bGd9ySBD3Mw-x0DCPAg%3D%3D&searchID=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.new-part.com%2Fproduct%2Fnew-toyota-celica-corolla-1996-1997-automatic-egr-valve-genuine-25620-16270%3Futm_source%3Dshopping%26utm_medium%3Dcse%26utm_term%3D291061&DealName=Genuine%20NEW%20Toyota%20Celica%20Corolla%201996-1997%20Automatic%20EGR%20Valve%2025620%2016270&MerchantID=530253&HasLink=yes&category=0&AR=-1&NG=1&GR=1&ND=1&PN=1&RR=-1&ST=&MN=msnFeed&FPT=SDCF&NDS=1&NMS=1&NDP=1&MRS=&PD=0&brnId=2455&lnkId=8070676&Issdt=160327051451&IsFtr=0&IsSmart=0&dlprc=270.72&SKU=291061")system deletion by the ECM logic" -Joel5.0
I'm seriously not trying to be a stick in the mud here...as I mentioned I don't want things dangling around, so if I can leave it all looking the same but accomplish the same task, that's how I do it. Especially since the only thing I had to "buy" was a piece of tape LOL
I removed all the EGR stuff and taped the connectors into the harness just in case I ever want to put it back. In you situation I would leave everything hooked up and simply remove the vacuum line between the EGR valve and the EGR solenoid and cap the exposed ends. This will keep everything looking "stock" and prevent the EGR valve from opening.
This is funny, i went to my local parts store to pick up a TCS gasket set and was telling the guy i was going to install a gear drive in my 5.0 and another customer started saying ohhhh it will mess up your motor and camshaft, i laughed at him and said did you check all clearances when you installed it? he said what clearances i laughed at him he got pissed off ...lol
Ok, maybe I'm missing something here.... You posted that your distributor is wired for a non HO firing order but you confirm a spider and roller lifter dog bones. I'd be pulling that cam in a hurry to see what you have in there.
I can't imagine the car would run very well with a non HO ecu, non HO firing order and a roller cam. The only thing I could surmise is that someone threw a roller cam in there that's ground for the standard firing order
Non HO 15426378
HO/351w 13726548
Uh you do realize that all 86-88 5.0 Thunderbird/Cougars had a roller cam with a 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order right?
That's what I was thinking. I still want him to measure Vref with everything plugged in.
AND that includes the '86-'91 Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car to '90('91 got the fat girl 4.6)...
Every passenger car 5.0 with SEFI injection uses a roller cam, no exceptions... That also includes E/F series with mass air...
Yep those too.
94-97 351W are roller cam as well.
Hi i driven about 100 miles now seems to run awesome, no surging, idles good, no pinging. never had above 4,000 rpm though. plugs are light tan, only way i can reinstall 02 sensors would be to buy new down pipes, mine dont have the bung holes.
Get some oxygen sensor bungs welded in: http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/weld-in-bungs-and-fittings/bung-type/oxygen-sensor?N=4294948829%2B4294948828&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Default
Install the oxygen sensors. It is NOT optional for the EEC-IV system. They need to be installed.
Woo hoo, just found a X pipe for shorty headers for 50.00 on craigslist, has bung holes, gonna go get it, never used...i love CL ...lol
You'll need longer HEGOs or extensions. Since your old ones are suspect, I'd just replace them with longer ones for a Mustang or Mark VII.
By using that plug you get a code 33 and ONLY a code 33. Without the plug you get 2 or 3 more EGR system codes. The code 33 will not set a check engine light on cars that actually have working ones. One of the other codes WILL. With our cars it's moot, but in the factory equipped Mass Air cars it can be an issue. Even if you did a MAF conversion with a later ECU it won't show up in a CougarBird as far as I know.
My Thunderbird is converted to MAF with an A9P processor. When I unplugged the EGR solenoid and EVP sensor the computer illuminated the check engine light. The resistor plug shut it off. Now it just shows a code 33 with no check engine light illuminated.
Exactly.
Before you start disconnecting everything check out a book- Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control by Charles Probst. The book is written in plain English- easy to understand even for this old guy. The book is for 88-93 cars. It will save you money and teach you what the EEC does. 88 and newer cars have computers that "learn" how the engine is operating and can adapt to how the car is driven. All parts are necessary. The EEC operates at 120 times per second to manage fuel injection, timing, etc.