Hey guys, I just finished I guess what would be considered slightly more than an HO conversion on my 88.
I'm running explorer intakes/injectors, gt40p heads, B303 cam, MAF conversion with SR CAI and A9L computer, and whatever else is listed under my picture.
My car is an AOD and will stall out sometimes at stoplights and if I'm in reverse. It's also burning super rich to where it burns your eyes if you're around the car. Any help is greatly appreciated, as you guys know I'm a 19 year-old newbie.
Codes would be a good start.
The biggest effect on a/f ratio on an SD car is the map sensor. When you add mass air, the computer sees both the bap (map sensor without vac line) and compares that with the maf sensor to calculate air coming into the engine and verifies fuel ratio with the o2 sensors.
Really though, codes should tell ya why it's running rich.
Once you've resolved the running-rich issue, you may also want to get an A9P computer for that instead. http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/5-0l-tech/30747-what-makes-a9l-computer-special-vs-others-ihra-nmra-fun-ford-track-rules.html
A9L is for a stick. The A9P has slightly different software. Based on the neutral safety / park-neutral indicator switch, it will command a slight kickup in idle to counter the load placed on it by the torque converter. Without this you can definitely have stalling issues with an automatic trans. Again this is not going to impact the rich fuel mixture problem you have, but once that's behind, the occassional stalling will be equally if not more annoying :)
My stock 5.0 s.o computer wasn't pr0ne to stalling. Plus its running rich.
Oh, I see what you mean zonda... Lots of mustang guys run the stick computer behind the aod. Supposedly it is more responsive or something made up like that.
Just run codes, it should give ya a really good idea what is wrong.
I'd like to know more about the hardware you used for the MAF conversion, specifically, what MAF. The CAI will skew the MAF readings, and the Explorer injectors are of the EV1 type. These are things that can make problems for you. You need to tune.
Swapped computer to an A9P today. Stalled once so far, but seems to idle better. I've heard A9Ls have better throttle response and that's why people want them.
Next step is to run codes.
You know I'm an idiot. I HAVE a stick computer in the red car. So that's out. The response might not be optimum but it does work.
It's probably BECAUSE his fuel mixture is screwed up, let's face it. It can't compensate enough for all of the external issues being input to the "idle signal".
And I had always read that the fuel and timing curves were more aggressive with the stick computer. Basically a better tune, if "better" is defined as more power. Which we would probably all agree is better LOL
This could easily be it. Need to know more details. Some mafs are really picky about cold air intakes and bends and filters near the maf. Plus there are quite a few different calibrations of maf, and the 19# new styled injectors probably will throw a wrench in everything too.
With the whole explorer setup and a h.o. cam, you might benefit from a larger throttle body and 24# injectors. This is also essentially the 93 cobra setup, so a mother computer swap, correct maf and some junkyard injectors out of a 460 might get ya away from a tune.
Anyways, we really need to know more specifics, and of course codes.
I wouldn't call your changes "slightly" more than HO, you've made major changes especially with that B303...
If you haven't increased base idle to around 800-900 in gear it's going to stall, just a fact of life with a rumpy cam... Also if your torque converter is stock that will aggravate the situation, need something looser I recommend a 2800-3200 with the B..
To make better power at WOT with that setup, you need to ditch the 58mm TB and go for a 65...
Your car may smell rich but in actuality it may be running fine. Without catalytic converters your car is going to smell rich at idle. Before you do ANYTHING else you really need to check for codes. Doing anything else before checking for codes and correcting any that come up is a waste of time and money. Here's how to check for codes, both KOEO and KOER:
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html
Check for KOEO, KOER, and cylinder balance test codes. Here's a list of the code explanations:
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,849.0.html
If you're not sure what a code means post back here and we can help. Once you've corrected all the issues caused by the codes you will probably have to do a base idle reset to get everything to run well (especially due to your cam choice). Here is how to correctly preform a base idle reset: http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html
Mine smells rich all the time, but I can see my short term fuel trims bouncing up and down about 3% from zero, and my adaptives at about +2%, so regardless of what my nose says, my O2 sensors say I'm fine. My injector slopes, spark tables and MAF transfer are dialed in tighter than a stock tune on a stock engine, so If I HAD cats, I'm pretty sure sure the air coming out of my engine would be cleaner than the air going in. Don't listen to your nose, it's lying.
My car smells rich at idle but doesn't throw any rich or lean codes. Without catalytic converters engine exhaust just smells bad.
The fact that the injectors are EV1 shouldn't be an issue. Stock HO stuff is EV1...
More information needed. Like stated earlier MAF meters can be fussy. There's usually different calibrations for CAI as opposed to the stock air box.
For what it's worth, those SR CAIs in the fender well run too small an air element for my liking...
Stock ho Injectors are ev6.
Actually stock HO injectors are EV1: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?963949-Will-a-EV1-injector-fit-on-a-99-01-intake
Explore injectors are EV6 injectors with EV1 Jetronic style connectors.
Regardless, they're different. Are they the same impedance, are their slopes the same? The breakpoint? The voltage offset? Using the p headed Explorer injectors represents a serious variance in injector specs, and is the largest factor in any problems with fuel metering you may have.
From what I know, it's a stock MAF sensor with an SR Cold Air Intake and 58mm Mustang TB. Stock explorer injectors.
I adjusted idle and seems to be running much better. I have no catalytic converters, so that is probably contributing to most of the smell. Still would like to check codes, thanks for the links!
The slopes, break point, etc are different than the stock HO injectors but they are close. There are people who have run them with a stock A9L/A9P without changing anything and have been fine. It won't work in every case but the Explorer injectors have been proven to work most of the time without issue.
I think his big issue is a code or idle speed issue. The FRPP alphabet cams tend to like a higher idle speed so that is probably part of the issue as well.
Running codes is by far the easiest and cheapest trouble shooting step, as well as only taking about 2 mins and usually telling you exactly what is wrong.
But most people would rather spend time and money on things they don't need then fix and drive the car.
Thanks guys. I'll keep you all updated.
Alright everyone - I'm older and a tiny bit smarter now. The car has been driven less than 1000 miles over the last 3 years. And now that I'm finished with college, I now have my own garage AND time to do what I've been needing to do for a while.
*note* Stalling is not an issue anymore. Throttle just needed adjustment. And the car is not running rich, but is very lean.
Here are the codes with my best guess on the issue:
FOER
21 Coolant temperature/sensor out of specified range - Temp gauge was telling me I was overheating, but the car never seemed to ACTUALLY be overheating. Always kept coolant full and just replacted thermostat, housing, and water pump. Replaced the stock temp gauge sensor but was giving me a reading that was bouncing back and forth, so I went aftermarket to see if I could get an accurate reading. Looks like I run 180-190 on an average day with no crazy readings.
41 Lean fuel mixture - Using 19lbers, and guy at the dyno says he can tune it to solve lean fuel mixture. I'm sure the car needs a tune, BUT I'm pretty sure I'm running an aftermarket MAF and really have no information on it its size/specifications.
91 Oxygen sensor issue, fuel pressure out of specified range or injectors out of balance - I never hooked O2s back up when I installed the X-pipe because I needed an extension for them. I guess I should probably do that?
33 Canister or EGR valve not operating properly - honestly not sure here. Pretty sure I deleted everything EGR but kept the spacer and hooked sensors and what not back up. Probably where this is coming from?
Addressing my lean fuel mixture: is this an issue that can mostly be solved by switching to larger injectors (let's say 24lbers?) and switching to a MAF that is calibrated specifically the injector size? Or should my focus be on having the car professionally tuned to solve the lean mix? OR combination of the two?
Chime in as you please.
There are two coolant sensors, one on the intake and one on the heater core pipes on top of the intake
Between that and the o2 sensors, is fix those two things before you throw any more money at it. Ignore the egr for now.
This. But also:
If you go to 24's you're going to either want an X3Z EEC or a tune. Calibrated MAFs cause problems as often as they don't. With an automatic, you're going to want a favorable spark table, and that works best with an accurate load calculation (basically, calculated volumetric efficiency or VE). Calibrated MAFs skew the load calc.
I tune with a Moates Quarterhorse and I love it. I even have a bluetooth adapter connected to it now so I can datalog to my phone, or connect wirelessly with my laptop for really quick access to tuning.
41 and 91 are lean left/right bank. You're getting those codes BECAUSE THE O2 SENSORS ARE NOT HOOKED UP. Hook the O2 sensors up before a tune or doing much anything else. Secondly replace the EEC-IV temperature sender in the heater pipe. That is causing the code 21.
Thanks for the insight guys.
O2s are hooked back up and replaced the other coolant temp sensor (passenger side). Ran codes and here's what I came up with:
21 Coolant temperature/sensor out of specified range - still being thrown even though I replaced passenger side sensor. I'm going to remove aftermarket gauge so I can hook the driver side sensor back up.
94 Secondary air system inoperative & 44 Air management system inoperative - I assume these have something to do with me deleting my air pump from a few years ago.
33 Canister or EGR valve not operating properly - still being thrown
13 Normal idle not within specified range - I can adjust idle to make this code go away I assume?
Do the coolant temp sensor. The one in the heater pipe is the one the computer sees. The other one is just for the gauge.
After that, id ignore the other codes. Do a basic tube up. The spark plugs might be all sooty from running rich for so long.
You are on the right track.
Track down 21 first. If all the emissions stuff is gone the only other code to worry about is 13. If you adjusted the idle using the factory tach that could be an issue. The factory tachs are horribly inaccurate. I actually purchased a tach/dwell meter just to get an accurate tach for idle adjustment.