Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 25, 2015, 08:44:30 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 25, 2015, 08:44:30 PM
Hey guys! New to the forums. After much searching it has brought me here. I need a group of experts to recommend the best way to get this SO 5.0 to get some umph! I don't have tons of money to spend so I need to know the best route to make this car make me sit back in my seat. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 26, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 26, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Did you read this?
http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/ho_conversion.html
Darren
http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/ho_conversion.html
Darren
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on May 26, 2015, 04:01:38 PM
Post by: Haystack on May 26, 2015, 04:01:38 PM
X2. If i ever get to blowing a motor on any of my cars, ill drop an h.o. in. I got all the parts, just been to lazy and don't wanna tear apart my car till it does.
A t-5 makes a world of difference in how the car drives as well. I used a 3.8 sn-95 t-5 that i got off craigslist for $150.
A t-5 makes a world of difference in how the car drives as well. I used a 3.8 sn-95 t-5 that i got off craigslist for $150.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 26, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 26, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;448314
Did you read this?
http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/ho_conversion.html
Darren
Thank you! I have been browsing the forum for hours trying to find something
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 26, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 26, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
Another question. Do i go with iron or aluminium heads?
Some people are saying that the gt40s have piston clearance issues. Will they still work with a stock mustang HO cam?
Some people are saying that the gt40s have piston clearance issues. Will they still work with a stock mustang HO cam?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 26, 2015, 05:59:02 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 26, 2015, 05:59:02 PM
Do a search for "piston relief, cam, gt40" or something like that as I know this has been beat to death here.
Darren
Darren
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 26, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 26, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;448330
Do a search for "piston relief, cam, gt40" or something like that as I know this has been beat to death here.
Darren
It is beat to death all over the internet. Lol
If i go with an E7 and a stock HO cam i am safe?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 26, 2015, 07:26:35 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 26, 2015, 07:26:35 PM
Quote from: darkknight87;448332
It is beat to death all over the internet. Lol
If i go with an E7 and a stock HO cam i am safe?
E7 are Junk, basically on next to bottom rung of a 15-20 step ladder...
Get you a set of Trick Flow 170 heads, a E cam or Stage 1 Trick Flow if you want a bit more rump da rump, valve clearance is a NON issue... You'll have to do a mass air conversion with either cam...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Bob on May 26, 2015, 07:33:01 PM
Post by: Bob on May 26, 2015, 07:33:01 PM
I say go with 3.55's or 3.73 rear to get some seat-in-pants ummph for now, and start saving for an engine swap. When I did heads, cam, and intake on my 80,000 mile 302 it blew up the following year.. just my experience and :2c:
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Beau on May 26, 2015, 08:23:06 PM
Post by: Beau on May 26, 2015, 08:23:06 PM
^Right!?
I've been putting together my 5.0 with P heads, E cam, CObra intake, etc.
It's a used engine, about 64,000 on it...yeah, if I had it to do over again, I'd have torn the block clean down, sent it in for cleaning, etc. Still, there was no ring ridge and it had excellent compression so that's why I didn't do a rebuild.
If it lasts 6 months, or 6 years, I'm not out anything as what I spent thus far would've been spent anyway even if the engine was completely gone through.
I've got several sets of E7s.....I'm keeping them for when s prices go up again. :D
I've been putting together my 5.0 with P heads, E cam, CObra intake, etc.
It's a used engine, about 64,000 on it...yeah, if I had it to do over again, I'd have torn the block clean down, sent it in for cleaning, etc. Still, there was no ring ridge and it had excellent compression so that's why I didn't do a rebuild.
If it lasts 6 months, or 6 years, I'm not out anything as what I spent thus far would've been spent anyway even if the engine was completely gone through.
I've got several sets of E7s.....I'm keeping them for when s prices go up again. :D
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 26, 2015, 08:46:10 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 26, 2015, 08:46:10 PM
Quote from: Bob;448336
I say go with 3.55's or 3.73 rear to get some seat-in-pants ummph for now, and start saving for an engine swap. When I did heads, cam, and intake on my 80,000 mile 302 it blew up the following year.. just my experience and :2c:
My 5.0 also died of crank failure but was the thrust bearing that failed, common on boosted/N2O engines... Still it ran for around four years with the crank sliding back and forth till finally a head gasket blew...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on May 26, 2015, 09:02:35 PM
Post by: Haystack on May 26, 2015, 09:02:35 PM
To the op, how much power do you want out of your car? What is your usage requirements? An h.o. swap is a 75hp bolt on with only a little bit of leg work.
My recommendations, do a stock h.o. swap first, and see if you need more power. Any other swap will cost a ton more money and require a bunch of modifications for little gain compared to the h.o. swap.
Gt40 heads will probably not clear without notching the pistions.a better cam on stock e7's probably won't clear without notching the pistions, there is only one aftermarket head i know of that should clear without notching the pistions.
If ya want a bit better then completely stock setup, grab a ford explorer intake and troll around craigslist and local mustang sites or the corral for used or cheap exhaust bits. Even with the stock aod, you might have to move/modify/change your shifter/linkage with anything except stock mustang/mark7 stuff.
The h.o. upgrade is the basis for most aftermarket upgrades. It will open a ton of doors, but you have to remember, anything ment for a mustang (and most aftermarket performance parts as a whole) will require modifications and/or fabrication in order to work properly on your particular car.
There is not much difference between a cleanly swapped factory job, and a hacked together sketchy ride.
My recommendations, do a stock h.o. swap first, and see if you need more power. Any other swap will cost a ton more money and require a bunch of modifications for little gain compared to the h.o. swap.
Gt40 heads will probably not clear without notching the pistions.a better cam on stock e7's probably won't clear without notching the pistions, there is only one aftermarket head i know of that should clear without notching the pistions.
If ya want a bit better then completely stock setup, grab a ford explorer intake and troll around craigslist and local mustang sites or the corral for used or cheap exhaust bits. Even with the stock aod, you might have to move/modify/change your shifter/linkage with anything except stock mustang/mark7 stuff.
The h.o. upgrade is the basis for most aftermarket upgrades. It will open a ton of doors, but you have to remember, anything ment for a mustang (and most aftermarket performance parts as a whole) will require modifications and/or fabrication in order to work properly on your particular car.
There is not much difference between a cleanly swapped factory job, and a hacked together sketchy ride.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Bob on May 26, 2015, 09:42:20 PM
Post by: Bob on May 26, 2015, 09:42:20 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;448343
That was a broken crank, right?? Assuming there wasn't a crack that was found during the rebuild, would have happened anyway... Just a fact of the stock 50 oz imbalance cranks...
My 5.0 also died of crank failure but was the thrust bearing that failed, common on boosted/N2O engines... Still it ran for around four years with the crank sliding back and forth till finally a head gasket blew...
I think it was from me beating the piss out of it for 10 years and than almost doubling the horsepower and beating it worse lol
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 27, 2015, 07:00:28 AM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 27, 2015, 07:00:28 AM
Quote from: Haystack;448344
To the op, how much power do you want out of your car? What is your usage requirements? An h.o. swap is a 75hp bolt on with only a little bit of leg work.
My recommendations, do a stock h.o. swap first, and see if you need more power. Any other swap will cost a ton more money and require a bunch of modifications for little gain compared to the h.o. swap.
Gt40 heads will probably not clear without notching the pistions.a better cam on stock e7's probably won't clear without notching the pistions, there is only one aftermarket head i know of that should clear without notching the pistions.
If ya want a bit better then completely stock setup, grab a ford explorer intake and troll around craigslist and local mustang sites or the corral for used or cheap exhaust bits. Even with the stock aod, you might have to move/modify/change your shifter/linkage with anything except stock mustang/mark7 stuff.
The h.o. upgrade is the basis for most aftermarket upgrades. It will open a ton of doors, but you have to remember, anything ment for a mustang (and most aftermarket performance parts as a whole) will require modifications and/or fabrication in order to work properly on your particular car.
There is not much difference between a cleanly swapped factory job, and a hacked together sketchy ride.
I am looking for the cheapest and most simple upgrade for this car. I do not have experience with this block as it is my first time owning one. I guess you could say I want to convert it to HO without any hassles of working on the lower half of the engine.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 27, 2015, 08:54:00 AM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 27, 2015, 08:54:00 AM
To convert it to an HO you will have to change the cams and if you are going to change the cam then you might as well install a new timing chain. I would call Ed Curtis at FTI and order one of his timing chain sets as they are really good for the $$$. Take your time with this and plan the conversion so you spend your money once.
Darren
Darren
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 27, 2015, 09:28:17 AM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 27, 2015, 09:28:17 AM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;448359
To convert it to an HO you will have to change the cams and if you are going to change the cam then you might as well install a new timing chain. I would call Ed Curtis at FTI and order one of his timing chain sets as they are really good for the $$$. Take your time with this and plan the conversion so you spend your money once.
Darren
Thanks for the tip! I am only gathering up parts now. It is going to be my winter project. I wanna take my time and do it right.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Beau on May 27, 2015, 09:36:56 AM
Post by: Beau on May 27, 2015, 09:36:56 AM
I'd also recommend getting an Explorer engine, sacking everything but the block, heads, crank, and pistons, and then adding to that. You'll have GT40/P heads, the good intake, and pistons that have valve reliefs.
Throw in the cam of choice, add all your existing engine accessories, pan, distributor, and flexplate, and drop it in.
It's what I would've done had I not had an actual HO engine from the Mustang I took apart.
Throw in the cam of choice, add all your existing engine accessories, pan, distributor, and flexplate, and drop it in.
It's what I would've done had I not had an actual HO engine from the Mustang I took apart.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Bob on May 27, 2015, 02:45:10 PM
Post by: Bob on May 27, 2015, 02:45:10 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;448361
I'd also recommend getting an Explorer engine, sacking everything but the block, heads, crank, and pistons, and then adding to that. You'll have GT40/P heads, the good intake, and pistons that have valve reliefs.
Throw in the cam of choice, add all your existing engine accessories, pan, distributor, and flexplate, and drop it in.
It's what I would've done had I not had an actual HO engine from the Mustang I took apart.
that would be a good upgrade path to take
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on May 27, 2015, 02:47:07 PM
Post by: Haystack on May 27, 2015, 02:47:07 PM
I pulled my timing chain cover off to fix a leak on one of my cars when it had 170k miles on it and i t had so much slack you could almost touch the chain to itself. I wonder what my 316k mile one looks like...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on May 28, 2015, 10:14:24 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on May 28, 2015, 10:14:24 PM
So i found a 95 mustang ho for $400. Wondering if it will bolt on to my transmission?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 28, 2015, 10:49:50 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 28, 2015, 10:49:50 PM
You currently have a 302W motor in your car and want to know if a 302W motor out of a donor car will bolt up to your existing tranny...it will unless you plan on using a different trans.
Darren
Darren
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on May 29, 2015, 12:04:54 AM
Post by: Haystack on May 29, 2015, 12:04:54 AM
The wiring will be different, the intake and throttle cable will be different.
Effectively, unless your current engine is flat wore out, it would be easier to swap your wiring harness onto it, replace the upper intake with one that fits right, upgrade your fuel pump, replace the exhaust, replace the computer, and then yeah, it will work.
Honestly, almost as much work, if not more then upgrading your engine over.
The ford explorer swap was a good recommendation. Best heads you can get from the factory, best intake from the factory. Swap on your harness and fuel rail, then the other supporting modifications for an h.o. swap (including camshaft) and your basically there.
There's nothing wrong with a 94-95 block, but it would not make any more power and would require almost as many modifications as converting yours over. The waterpump and crank are also slightly shorter, so if you reused any of your pullies, they wouldn't line up.
Effectively, unless your current engine is flat wore out, it would be easier to swap your wiring harness onto it, replace the upper intake with one that fits right, upgrade your fuel pump, replace the exhaust, replace the computer, and then yeah, it will work.
Honestly, almost as much work, if not more then upgrading your engine over.
The ford explorer swap was a good recommendation. Best heads you can get from the factory, best intake from the factory. Swap on your harness and fuel rail, then the other supporting modifications for an h.o. swap (including camshaft) and your basically there.
There's nothing wrong with a 94-95 block, but it would not make any more power and would require almost as many modifications as converting yours over. The waterpump and crank are also slightly shorter, so if you reused any of your pullies, they wouldn't line up.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on May 29, 2015, 08:31:50 PM
Post by: QUICKSHIFT on May 29, 2015, 08:31:50 PM
Are you staying Efi? Have you considered going with a carb?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on June 13, 2015, 06:16:54 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on June 13, 2015, 06:16:54 PM
I have everything I need for the HO conversion. My next question is: Will my pushrods work for E7 heads?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on June 13, 2015, 06:20:39 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on June 13, 2015, 06:20:39 PM
Quote from: QUICKSHIFT;448434
Are you staying Efi? Have you considered going with a carb?
Staying EFI for now although carbed would be nice
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: vinnietbird on June 13, 2015, 09:48:08 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on June 13, 2015, 09:48:08 PM
Pushrods are the same between E6 and E7 heads.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on June 14, 2015, 01:01:00 AM
Post by: Haystack on June 14, 2015, 01:01:00 AM
And different depending on machining between heads, block cam head gasket...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: vinnietbird on June 14, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Post by: vinnietbird on June 14, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
True, but the same on stock roller motors.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Bob on June 14, 2015, 10:02:07 AM
Post by: Bob on June 14, 2015, 10:02:07 AM
Just mock it up and measure your pushrod length, its just one of those things that go along with building a motor.. Like when you degree your cam or check piston to valve clearence.
If you don't have the knowhow, the tools, or the time to do it yourself than take your parts to an engine builder and have him build the shortblock for you. Nothing wrong with that. I had my shortblock assembled.. Cam degreed, etc.. It didn't cost much extra.
If you don't have the knowhow, the tools, or the time to do it yourself than take your parts to an engine builder and have him build the shortblock for you. Nothing wrong with that. I had my shortblock assembled.. Cam degreed, etc.. It didn't cost much extra.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 18, 2015, 08:40:17 AM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 18, 2015, 08:40:17 AM
Update! I am almost done with my HO Conversion. It took two weeks working at it after work everyday. Last questionn with pics? Where do these go?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on July 18, 2015, 10:02:20 AM
Post by: Haystack on July 18, 2015, 10:02:20 AM
The one by the dist goes to the charcoal canister (ugly black box by the sway bar bracket if i remember right). The other one looks like either map sensor or vacuum line distribution block.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 18, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 18, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Map sensor gets plugged in to the bottom side of the upper intake? And what about the one labeled "S" on the vacuum tree on the fire wall?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 18, 2015, 08:46:03 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 18, 2015, 08:46:03 PM
Can anyone answer that? Need to know where the vacuum line off the tree on the firewall labeled "s"
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: vinnietbird on July 18, 2015, 11:54:38 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on July 18, 2015, 11:54:38 PM
I will answer that in the morning when I go out to install the chin spoiler.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 19, 2015, 09:52:48 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 19, 2015, 09:52:48 AM
The first pic is the charcoal canister, look for a port under the upper toward the front. The second is the MAP sensor, VERY IMPORTANT since you're staying with speed density. It connects on the back and you can connect it pretty much anywhere it fits, but it must have full vacuum. The vacuum hose labeled S on the tree stands for "Source" which means it supplies vacuum to all the accessories on the block, you'll want to find a large port on the back of the intake, I can't remember if it's on the upper or lower, but you can bet that only one will be large enough. It may be a couple inches in under the upper. If the upper is tightened down, feel around with your fingers under the back.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 19, 2015, 12:15:51 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 19, 2015, 12:15:51 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;449857
The first pic is the charcoal canister, look for a port under the upper toward the front. The second is the MAP sensor, VERY IMPORTANT since you're staying with speed density. It connects on the back and you can connect it pretty much anywhere it fits, but it must have full vacuum. The vacuum hose labeled S on the tree stands for "Source" which means it supplies vacuum to all the accessories on the block, you'll want to find a large port on the back of the intake, I can't remember if it's on the upper or lower, but you can bet that only one will be large enough. It may be a couple inches in under the upper. If the upper is tightened down, feel around with your fingers under the back.
Sweet! Thanks! The HO Plenum hooked up a little differently than the stock one. The charcoal canister is hooked up on that side so it just goes to the upper intake. And the MAP sensor goes there too. There is plenty of hook ups down there. Lucky me...
Now i just have to get exhaust hooked up!
Thanks for everyones help!
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 20, 2015, 01:57:30 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 20, 2015, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: darkknight87;449861
Sweet! Thanks! The HO Plenum hooked up a little differently than the stock one. The charcoal canister is hooked up on that side so it just goes to the upper intake. And the MAP sensor goes there too. There is plenty of hook ups down there. Lucky me...
Now i just have to get exhaust hooked up!
Thanks for everyones help!
The hookup between a standard 5.0 and a 5.0 HO should be the same. They have the exact same vacuum fittings on the upper manifold. Here's a vacuum routing diagram for you.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 20, 2015, 08:38:16 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 20, 2015, 08:38:16 PM
Apparently a 30 year old starter does not like to be jostled around to get headers in! I put her all back together.... turn the key.... and CLICK! I am like... wtf... So I cooled down for the night and told myself I would come back to it today. I already knew my starter went bad so I replaced that and the solenoid. After I replaced those it fired right up! I couldn't be much more proud of myself accomplishing such a project on my own..
BUT LAST QUESTION.
When doing the timing you
1. Let it warm up.
2. Remove the sprout.
3. Advance or retard the timing mark to 10° BTDC.
4. Tighten down the distributor.
5. Plug in the sprout.
6. Let the computer do it's magic.
My question is does the timing need to be readjusted to 10°BTDC after the computer fixes itself or do i leave it alone?
It's running at 26 BTDC now.
BUT LAST QUESTION.
When doing the timing you
1. Let it warm up.
2. Remove the sprout.
3. Advance or retard the timing mark to 10° BTDC.
4. Tighten down the distributor.
5. Plug in the sprout.
6. Let the computer do it's magic.
My question is does the timing need to be readjusted to 10°BTDC after the computer fixes itself or do i leave it alone?
It's running at 26 BTDC now.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 20, 2015, 09:01:50 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 20, 2015, 09:01:50 PM
Quote from: darkknight87;449903
My question is does the timing need to be readjusted to 10°BTDC after the computer fixes itself or do i leave it alone?
It's running at 26 BTDC now.
The computer can only add or subtract a preset amount of timing, has no idea how much base is dialed in... With sprout plug pulled, set base timing at 14*, if it spark knocks pull out another degree or two...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 20, 2015, 10:18:51 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 20, 2015, 10:18:51 PM
Sprout. Lol :)
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 20, 2015, 10:34:23 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 20, 2015, 10:34:23 PM
Still having the same issue. As soon as i put the spout back on it goes up to 26-30 BTDC. Pulling codes now.
I got a 23 and 63 not running
63 and 98 running
I got a 23 and 63 not running
63 and 98 running
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 20, 2015, 10:50:24 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 20, 2015, 10:50:24 PM
I did usr the tps from the original throttle body. Probably the problem there?
The 98 hard fault sounds not so good too.
The 98 hard fault sounds not so good too.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 21, 2015, 12:27:33 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 21, 2015, 12:27:33 AM
You need only measure the volts at the tps green wire with the key on. Look for between .4 and 1.0 with the throttle closed. Probably not the problem, though. I can watch mine bouncing from 15 (my base timing) to 26 or sometimes 28 at idle in gear. I think you're chasing balloons. You did swap the EEC with a HO EEC, right? How does it drive?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2015, 12:38:02 AM
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2015, 12:38:02 AM
Hard fault means a "critical sensor" isn't working properly. You have a tps code, which is fairly necessary.
Looks like everything is working, except the tps.
Read this http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,29736.0.html
Also, make sure you have both ground and 5v's on your map sensor. As long as you do, the computer should be applying proper voltages and you should be able to rule everything out except for a bad sensor.
All tps sensors work the same. As long as you have around 1v at idle and around 4.5v's at wot with no breaks or major fluctuations in voltage through the sweep, your sensor should be okay.
It is possible to have a bad connection elsewhere in the wiring harness, so measure your voltages by back probing the tps and see what you get.
If your missing either the sgrtn(ground through the ecm) or your 5v reference(5v's supplied by the ecm for the sensor) then its possible you have a bad ground to the ecm or voltage supply. Many times this is just an issue with the 10 pin connectors (salt and pepper shakers" they clip onto the intake under your intake plaque).
If you are missing any signals, check for the 5v and sigrtn at the map sensor wires.
Looks like everything is working, except the tps.
Read this http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,29736.0.html
Also, make sure you have both ground and 5v's on your map sensor. As long as you do, the computer should be applying proper voltages and you should be able to rule everything out except for a bad sensor.
All tps sensors work the same. As long as you have around 1v at idle and around 4.5v's at wot with no breaks or major fluctuations in voltage through the sweep, your sensor should be okay.
It is possible to have a bad connection elsewhere in the wiring harness, so measure your voltages by back probing the tps and see what you get.
If your missing either the sgrtn(ground through the ecm) or your 5v reference(5v's supplied by the ecm for the sensor) then its possible you have a bad ground to the ecm or voltage supply. Many times this is just an issue with the 10 pin connectors (salt and pepper shakers" they clip onto the intake under your intake plaque).
If you are missing any signals, check for the 5v and sigrtn at the map sensor wires.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 21, 2015, 12:34:39 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 21, 2015, 12:34:39 PM
Quote from: darkknight87;449909
Still having the same issue. [COLOR="#FF0000"]As soon as i put the spout back on it goes up to 26-30 BTDC.[/COLOR] Pulling codes now.
I got a 23 and 63 not running
63 and 98 running
That's what it's supposed to do...
Always fix the 1st code then retest, since 23 & 63 are related that's your problem... Phantom codes are often generated from first one...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 01:58:10 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;449912
You need only measure the volts at the tps green wire with the key on. Look for between .4 and 1.0 with the throttle closed. Probably not the problem, though. I can watch mine bouncing from 15 (my base timing) to 26 or sometimes 28 at idle in gear. I think you're chasing balloons. You did swap the EEC with a HO EEC, right? How does it drive?
I got the DA1 which is for a manual I am reading. But I step on the throttle and it won't move.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 21, 2015, 03:47:27 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 21, 2015, 03:47:27 PM
So when you blip the throttle the timing doesn't advance with the SPOUT in?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 03:54:52 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 03:54:52 PM
I will have to check. Didn't think to do that.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2015, 06:55:07 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2015, 06:55:07 PM
Your throttle isn't responding because you have no tps sensor, or your throttle cable isn't moving. With the key off, set a brick on your gas pedal and verify that the throttle blade is moving. If it is, you need to trouble shoot your tps wiring.
Again, verify voltages like the link i posted.
Again, verify voltages like the link i posted.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 07:05:57 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 07:05:57 PM
Cleaned the battery terminals Reset the ecu. And those codes are gone!
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 07:06:46 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 07:06:46 PM
Running on just headers is not really fair for a test drive....
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2015, 08:27:22 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 21, 2015, 08:27:22 PM
So, no o2 sensors? Does it rev freely now?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 08:59:17 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 08:59:17 PM
No there isn't o2 sensors hooked up. Rev freely?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 09:58:34 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 21, 2015, 09:58:34 PM
I realized i got the spark plugs for E6 heads not the E7s. There is a difference between them.
Spark plugs 3,4,5, and 7 were black. Coincidentally these are the spark plugs that you switch when doing an HO conversion. The others were normal.
The correct spark plugs and wires helped with throttled firing a little. Couldn't take it out for a test spin though. Will update tomorrow when I drive it.
Spark plugs 3,4,5, and 7 were black. Coincidentally these are the spark plugs that you switch when doing an HO conversion. The others were normal.
The correct spark plugs and wires helped with throttled firing a little. Couldn't take it out for a test spin though. Will update tomorrow when I drive it.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 22, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 22, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Do you guys think it might require the original firing order? The cam is out of an 86 mustang gt lx and it has a da1 eec.
Running rich on 3,4,5,7
Running rich on 3,4,5,7
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on July 22, 2015, 08:17:14 AM
Post by: Haystack on July 22, 2015, 08:17:14 AM
Without o2 sensors the car is going to run funny. Your probably not even getting open loop, which means the car is running in a fail safe mode. Its called limp mode, as it is just supposed to run well enough to not hurt the engine until it can get serviced.
Finish hooking everything up, clear codes and make sure the car is doing what its supposed to.
Finish hooking everything up, clear codes and make sure the car is doing what its supposed to.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 22, 2015, 10:15:19 AM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 22, 2015, 10:15:19 AM
Quote from: Haystack;449938
Without o2 sensors the car is going to run funny. Your probably not even getting open loop, which means the car is running in a fail safe mode. Its called limp mode, as it is just supposed to run well enough to not hurt the engine until it can get serviced.
Finish hooking everything up, clear codes and make sure the car is doing what its supposed to.
Without o2 it'll never be in closed loop(duh), but the lookup tables in the ECM will sub a workable value and the car will run approx as it should... Gas mileage will be decreased by probably three mpg...
If o2 are removed/failed after a normal operation, as long as KAM is still powered, the ECM will use the last working values reported by o2...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2015, 11:27:10 AM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 22, 2015, 11:27:10 AM
Problem with that is that he hasn't established any KAM values yet. There are no adaptives to lean on at this point. He needs everything hooked up. He probably needs extensions for the hegos to reach.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: Haystack on July 22, 2015, 05:45:23 PM
Post by: Haystack on July 22, 2015, 05:45:23 PM
If you unhook the map sensor vacuum line and drive it, you will stain the ground black and get about 6mpg. It also prevents certain codes from being displayed koer because its in limp mode.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 22, 2015, 11:20:11 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 22, 2015, 11:20:11 PM
Yes MAP is a absolute requirement, engine load is calculated by amount of vacuum applied... With no vac, ECM calculates for WOT... Converters will glow cherry red...
In order of importance TPS isn't far behind, but I've never seen anything anywhere near catastrophic such as MAP can produce(BTW a stuck open VAM on a Turbo Coupe can produce similar results of disconnected MAP) ...
TPS failed on my '93 Lightning(they are SD), idled fine but had about as much power as a 3.8 missing half the plug wires...
In order of importance TPS isn't far behind, but I've never seen anything anywhere near catastrophic such as MAP can produce(BTW a stuck open VAM on a Turbo Coupe can produce similar results of disconnected MAP) ...
TPS failed on my '93 Lightning(they are SD), idled fine but had about as much power as a 3.8 missing half the plug wires...
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 23, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 23, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
Update! Thank you for everyone's help! BUT... I was duped! I was sold a non HO cam. Which entirely explains why 3,4,5, and 7 were not firing. All that work!!! UGH!!!!
For future reference: if this question ever comes up again then they got the wrong cam too.
3,4,5,7 no fire wrong cam
1,2,6,8 distributor backwards.
For future reference: if this question ever comes up again then they got the wrong cam too.
3,4,5,7 no fire wrong cam
1,2,6,8 distributor backwards.
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 23, 2015, 09:31:45 PM
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 23, 2015, 09:31:45 PM
Did you verify the rest of the parts?
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 23, 2015, 09:35:50 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 23, 2015, 09:35:50 PM
Yes. They all came from different places so those are ok. For sure.
So i have
high flow walhbro fuel pump
19# injectors
E7 heads
HO plenum
Stock mustang throttle body and egr
TPS
and the DA1 computer is still in.
I know those are all correct
So i have
high flow walhbro fuel pump
19# injectors
E7 heads
HO plenum
Stock mustang throttle body and egr
TPS
and the DA1 computer is still in.
I know those are all correct
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 24, 2015, 12:01:14 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on July 24, 2015, 12:01:14 PM
Quote from: darkknight87;449991
Update! Thank you for everyone's help! BUT... I was duped! I was sold a non HO cam. Which entirely explains why 3,4,5, and 7 were not firing. All that work!!! UGH!!!!
For future reference: if this question ever comes up again then they got the wrong cam too.
3,4,5,7 no fire wrong cam
1,2,6,8 distributor backwards.
For temporary you can switch back to the orig ECM and injectors then use 15426378 firing order..
Title: Stock 5.0 in 86 tbird want to beef it up.
Post by: darkknight87 on July 26, 2015, 12:16:41 PM
Post by: darkknight87 on July 26, 2015, 12:16:41 PM
Lol! The ler man did no cats. No questions asked.