Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: jcassity on February 01, 2015, 12:42:56 PM
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 01, 2015, 12:42:56 PM
if you have a working amp meter on your buttstuffog cluster.....
are you a 2.3L turbo or a 5.0?
my son mason discovered there are not reasonable electrical references in either the 87 or 88 evtm pertaining to an buttstuffog amp metet in the 3.8 or 5.0.
only the 2.3L turbo is illustrated.
so...
who in a 5.0 has a working amp meter?
we are attempting to make an 88 amp meter work.
we need to know the oem design though.
what was fords millivolt reference,,, 25mv, 50mv,, 100mv or what?
by the way,, the 87 5.0 charge ckt looks more like the 2.3L than the 88 5.0 charge... oddly 88 seems to be very different.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Haystack on February 01, 2015, 02:37:29 PM
I have an amp light...
I would assume that this would only apply to the buttstuffog clusters optional on a 87-88 sport or xr7, as those are the only dash setups i haven't had from 86-88.
Why do you want one? Most only read +\- 50 amps. Are you planning a 3g upgrade? A volt meter would tell you just as much imho.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 01, 2015, 05:08:46 PM
Being as the alternator has no current control it has voltage control why an AMMETER. Nice if it worked for estedics but useless as a gauge'
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 01, 2015, 07:20:07 PM
I agree Tom
Mason has a 3G upgrade already in his car and he's wondering how to make the amp meter work and then he decided that the EV TMs did not show him an illustration to use for reference
only the four-cylinder engine has a reference to an amp meter
Yes he already has a working voltmeter
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 01, 2015, 08:31:23 PM
Agreed I saw you Voltmeter mod and liked it very much. Great add on and very ingenious
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Haystack on February 01, 2015, 09:46:20 PM
An amp gauge is really touchy, not very accurate, and pr0ne to failure. Even more so if you've upgraded the electrical system.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Trinom on February 03, 2015, 06:32:10 AM
Digital gauge is comming up, guys. Stay tuned. More info probably at the weekend. Just a quick preview, how does it look like. (http://obrazky.trinom.org/obrazky/ke1g_digi_bud%C3%ADk.jpg) This is the visualisation, but in reality it looks very similar (except the white area). I'm currently working on bright backlight, because I want to be able to read it even in direct sunlight. I shouldn't forget to mention, that all informations are user selectable and it can be switched to buttstuffog gauge mode as well. As you probably noticed, there are several small icons up and down the screen, which I see very usefull and missing on buttstuffogue dashboard.
What do you think about it?
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2015, 05:11:35 PM
I know this is a new design and its ironic your capturing temp ranges of various points like my son wants to do. I am game for a working or workable unit when available.
in the meantime, mason is hunting down the root cause on the non-functioning ammeter. he suspects the ammeter on the 5.0 is wired exactly as though for schematic purposes like the 2.3L.. that being said he thinks the parallel yellow wire with the ammeter,, the splice on the battery side is somehow broken... and this would be the case on every non-functional ammeter.
shunt monitored ammeters are very reliable and dependable, there is a basic fault somewhere "connection" related ,, we are thinking an open circuit somewhere.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Skunk on February 03, 2015, 08:18:41 PM
Quote from: jcassity;443862
he thinks the parallel yellow wire with the ammeter,, the splice on the battery side is somehow broken... and this would be the case on every non-functional ammeter.
shunt monitored ammeters are very reliable and dependable, there is a basic fault somewhere "connection" related ,, we are thinking an open circuit somewhere.
Ive been here for some time mostly lurking but I think I can contribute for a change. Yes, agreed a shunt type ammeter is a very reliable source of information and its what we primarily use on Locomotives to monitor loading of the system. If properly set up it can reveal far better information over a voltmeter especially with an upgraded alternator that will maintain optimal voltages. Its possible I am mistaken, but the alternator is regulated to approx. 14.6v so the ammeter should indicate the varying load demand. For example; voltage drops on your voltmeter when you turn on your lights, the ammeter should jump higher with equal amplitude, voltage will stabilize and ammeter should drop some but not as far to the point when the lights were off.
The main problem with our ammeters is one: the meter itself is poor quality and two: the design of the circuit.
You are right..... its the yellow parallel wire. Except its not broken..... its providing the path of least resistance between the battery and the alternator so there's very little voltage passing through the meters field to deflect it. If it were broken all voltage would pass through the ammeter and likely kill it. Now saying that....... I did experiment years back splicing resistance into the yellow wire to force more flow through the meter and was able make what I thought was a dead meter deflect reliably. I did however abandoned the mod mainly due to the uncomfortable feeling of possibly burning down my car. You could ..... if you don't mind cutting the wires to the ammeter...... use a 9v battery to test the meters deflection both positive and negative just to make sure it even works.
Final thought...... if you really want to monitor amperage to the point of being able to datalog it, I would definitely look for a small CT to put on the main alternator power cable.
John
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 03, 2015, 08:33:26 PM
Just something to think about. All AMMETERS are micro volt meters with a giant shunt. Either incorporated in the gauge or in the wiring. Bottom line here alternators do not have current control so reading Current is useless. A voltmeter is much more effective and much better than a AMMETER. Just something to think about.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Skunk on February 03, 2015, 09:25:18 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;443871
Just something to think about. All AMMETERS are micro volt meters with a giant shunt. Either incorporated in the gauge or in the wiring. Bottom line here alternators do not have current control so reading Current is useless. A voltmeter is much more effective and much better than a AMMETER. Just something to think about.
Not contradicting you Tom..... you are right with one exception....... Let me try to explain my logic. The fact that they are voltage regulated all your watching is the regulator working with a voltmeter and depending on where its tapped can only give partial information. To get an accurate assessment of your electrical, you really need both. Volts are just volts in a regulated system just like your house. Current increases with a drop in voltage and vice versa, once the regulator caps the voltage at 14.6v the only thing that's going to change is amps and only an ammeter will indicate that. Even the shunt ammeter will indicate a high current because its monitoring the differential in field excitation voltage vs the point of use voltage. Just like you checking for a difference in voltage directly at the alternator vs at the battery and finding them to be different, the ammeter indicates that. If you want to know the amount of stress.... you got to look at amps. Every wire, fuse, fuse link, electric motor, sensor, ect in you your car, home, business has a voltage and current rating for a reason.
John
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 03, 2015, 09:36:23 PM
NOPE alternators are voltage controlled and no car company used an AMMETER ANY MORE. Bottom line is voltage is the choice for monitoring. Reason being current is useless without knowing the voltage. Once the voltage drops charge rate degrades rapidly. Example an ammeter nrmally never moves after the car is started if the alternator is working correctly. if the alternator faild you get a heavy discharge on the ammeter but your voltage will be in the woods. Voltage is the only way to monitor charging conditions. If the voltmeter is in the electrical system it will monitor. Makes no difference where. Normally from the key battery off the ignition switch. Some voltmeters work with the ignition off but not any more. So when you check a charging system for performance or an issue is not the voltage readings you are looking for at the battery. YES IT IS and normally never an AMMETER. I do because i have a VAT. But modern charging system testers do not have an AMMETER or an amperage reading with the testing. Only a voltage reading. Current does not increase with a voltage drop. Example a blower motor on low draws less current than on high speed. I understand where you are coming from but an ammeter is useless . ALL AMMETERS are shunt devices weather external or internal they are shunted
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Skunk on February 03, 2015, 10:11:04 PM
AAhhhhhh I see the confusion.......... I am referring to real ammeter (clamp on or series meter) in terms of system loading in a properly operating system like at highway cruise with a constant max voltage output then having it deflect when turning on wipers, lights, a/c ect indicating an increase or decrease in current draw. Remember current and voltage are inversely proportional so it goes both ways one is useless without the other. I think your referring something more of a charge/discharge guage which I agree is useless and is what is in these cars.
Sorry for the hijack
John
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2015, 10:35:25 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;443871
Just something to think about. All AMMETERS are micro volt meters with a giant shunt. Either incorporated in the gauge or in the wiring. Bottom line here alternators do not have current control so reading Current is useless. A voltmeter is much more effective and much better than a AMMETER. Just something to think about.
that's exactly why we mod'ed his car gutted the ammeter and inserted voltmeter internals.. yet he seems to believe that the circuit worked at one time and did so with no issues, and wants to "see if" there is a fault.
by the way,, the ammeter windings are something like 18awg sol twisted up around a core.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 03, 2015, 10:41:31 PM
Quote from: Skunk;443873
Current increases with a drop in voltage
John
I will now speculate that you have vast experience working with switch mode power supplies and ,, to include valve regulated lead acid as well as flooded cell batteries. most people to get to see this in real life because of the equipment they are working on don't include the variable of COUP DE FOUET .
the shunts ideal with typically are 100 to 2000Amps
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Haystack on February 03, 2015, 11:17:58 PM
I really want to wire in a different connector to my watt meter that i use for my model airplanes. I tested the wattage/amprage of the taurus fan i installed just for fun.
Instead of soldering or crimping terminals to the fan, i used "heavy duty" alligator clips, just to test the fan.
At 16.4v's, low speed takes 16 amps and around 270 watts. The high was 448 watts, but it had enough load it brought the lipo battery i tested it with down to 14 or 15v's. Don't remember exactly. It was bout 32 amps. If i spun it on low then connected high, it settled down to about 20 amps, never exceeding 25 amps. It did however burn up one of the wires on my clips before i really rung of out well.
My personal opinion, i don't see a point in a non fully digital amp gauge. Most changes that you would see would be minuscule and hard to read on such a small buttstuffog gauge.
Assuming same wattage under load, when the voltage goes down, amprage will increase, again assuming the same wattage(overall work performed).
One thing i found funny. I have a 19oz airplane that pulls more then my electric fan. It actually pulls 365 watts and produces over 40 oz of thrust. I hooked my fish scale up to the electric fan, it didn't appear to pull much of any thrust. Im also surprised how quiet and relatively weak an electric fan actually is, and how well it actually cools.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Trinom on February 04, 2015, 09:19:18 AM
BTW, where is the shunt for an A-meter located?
I have working A-meter on my red car, but the needle movement difference between no load, max load and max charging is so small, you can't even notice the difference for the first signt. I experienced an issue, that my battery was completely flat after driving in traffic jam with A/C and headlights on. And I didn't notice this, unless I wasn't able to start at a petrol station. What a shame. The meter should be much more sensitive, or you can't see anything.
And as Tom mentioned, current isn't as important information, as voltage, because if there is a short, it will blow a fuse and that's all.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Skunk on February 04, 2015, 04:23:44 PM
Quote from: jcassity;443879
I will now speculate that you have vast experience working with switch mode power supplies and ,, to include valve regulated lead acid as well as flooded cell batteries. most people to get to see this in real life because of the equipment they are working on don't include the variable of COUP DE FOUET .
LOL........... clearly not as much as you. I had to look up Coup De Fouet to figure out it was the whiplash effect. My experience comes from motive power generation.
Just incase anyone is wondering coup de fouet" (whiplash) effects. This effect is a temporary, severe voltage drop which occurs when a heavy load is suddenly placed on the battery and is caused by the inability of the rate of the chemical action in the battery to accommodate the instantaneous demand for current.
John
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
Quote from: Trinom;443894
BTW, where is the shunt for an A-meter located?
I have working A-meter on my red car, but the needle movement difference between no load, max load and max charging is so small, you can't even notice the difference for the first signt. I experienced an issue, that my battery was completely flat after driving in traffic jam with A/C and headlights on. And I didn't notice this, unless I wasn't able to start at a petrol station. What a shame. The meter should be much more sensitive, or you can't see anything.
And as Tom mentioned, current isn't as important information, as voltage, because if there is a short, it will blow a fuse and that's all.
87 evtm for the 2.3L say the splices were the Ammeter & single wire shunt wire are spliced are located at the starter relay.
one side of the bonded Ammeter and shunt is sourcing battery one side of the bonded ammeter and shunt is sourcing alternator output.
in my opinion only, I prefer volt meter,, again for this drill my son wants to attempt to find out where the fault is. good observations and points you did make above.
attached are the kind of shunts I deal with all the time.. 50mv rated XXXX amps
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2015, 06:03:04 PM
Quote from: Skunk;443902
LOL........... clearly not as much as you. I had to look up Coup De Fouet to figure out it was the whiplash effect. My experience comes from motive power generation.
Just incase anyone is wondering coup de fouet" (whiplash) effects. This effect is a temporary, severe voltage drop which occurs when a heavy load is suddenly placed on the battery and is caused by the inability of the rate of the chemical action in the battery to accommodate the instantaneous demand for current.
John
and further shows that when high tech equipment loads with non Fero loads are being powered (switch mode power supplies), it clearly illustrates when voltage goes down, the battery "current demand" increases..
yet this seems to break ohms law in some cases ,,,, oh well, nuff of that stuff
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 04, 2015, 06:10:29 PM
Bottom line here is an AMMETER is useless. You are better off with a voltmeter and an idiot light. By the way those so called idiot lights really work great. They will tell you if you have an open diode trio and that is a fact
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 04, 2015, 06:11:37 PM
Yes J that is a mother SHUNT FOR SURE!! Big amp numbers those bad boys can handle
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 04, 2015, 06:13:36 PM
By the way as J points out the shunt is between the ALT and starter solenoid. I will take his word for that as i never looked at the print. But if so that is a dead giveaway that the AMMETER is useless. reason being it does not monitor the full load of charge and discharge if i am thinking correctly
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2015, 07:04:32 PM
here is the 87 print
its a difference of potential thing,, each side of the parallel ammeter/shut is positive
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2015, 07:14:10 PM
keep in mind though,, there is not a single illustrative representation for an ammeter tied to a 5.0car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's my original point to post 1 and wondering who in a 5.0 has a working unit.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2015, 07:23:33 PM
try to ignore ckt 36,, ,, just ignore it being the regulator input for the moment and you see that one side of the ammeter is battery, the other side "see" or feels alternator,, the imbalance would be the difference and cause needle deflection.
in my opinion, the windings inside the ammeter should have been of a smaller conductor with many more windings to ultimately result in a resistance , lets say 20ohms.... then put the ammeter in parallel with a 20ohm shut wire, that would make it better.
the meter on the left is a volt meter the meter on the right is an ammeter. note the windings and size conductor + qty of turns.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Skunk on February 04, 2015, 09:18:50 PM
J, mine is a 87 2.3 converted to a 5.0 if that's of any help. As Tom states, the circuit doesn't work very well as it is since both sides of the meter connect to a common point at the start solenoid. In my experimentation I found the divider circuit needs to force more voltage to pass through the ammeter to amplify the miniscule voltage differential just to get a large enough deflection to actually see. I also found it will always show in the middle never indicating level of charge or discharge because the field excitation from the battery and output of the alternator are always at the same potential due to common connection. IMO the only way to get it to actually work as intended is to run full load though the meter BUT that's not a safe option, hence the movement to using Voltmeters over the Ammeter.
John
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 04, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
are you guys blind?
I have typed words, shown pictures and drawing.. not sure what more I can say.
*one side of the parallel shunt / meter references battery ~ see fuse link L *one side of the parallel shunt / meter references alt ~ see fuse links G, H & I
~edit out in your minds eye circuit 36 by pretending it isn't there for a moment.
Both sides of the meter are not on the starter relay,, I have no idea where that comes from other than assumption based posts prior to this.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: Skunk on February 04, 2015, 10:32:16 PM
J.... not blind nor assumption, Ok maybe a little blind...I am getting old.......... The fact is the ammeter is not seeing/registering the imbalance due to the design of the field windings/core and I never attempted to alter that part of the circuit. The large yellow wire is the path of least resistance and the meter is not getting enough flow to deflect the needle. If you put your voltmeter across S261 and S262 you will read at or near Zero which may as well be connected directly to the starter relay. I apologize for oversimplifying. Circuit 36 has to taken into account due to its draw to drag down the battery side of the connection anytime the key is on thus bypassing the shunt before load distribution when not running and after the shunt when running. I believe it will reduce the amount of imbalance thus reducing deflection of the needle. Removed from the circuit yes it should without question work since power has only the parallel path of the shunt and the meter.
Feel free to beat me over the head with a dummy stick......... I never claim to be right........ just self educating discussion.
John
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 05, 2015, 05:48:28 AM
Ok here is my take on this. The ford engineers wanted an ammeter on the 2.3 so they went cheap and dirty. The meter is in parallel with the A terminal which does not see enough accessory or vehicle load. hence it does not work or works like shiznit. Installing the meter terminals like across the alt and the feed to the ignition switch would work. This way the meter shunt will see in and out loads and charging rates. A simple set of wires from the ammeter to these locations will be my bet to get it to work much better. But you will have to experiment to how much wire you need or should i say the point of connection to engineer the shunt length. I am willing to bet alt and ignition switch has the most drop and will allow the meter to work properly. Where it is right now is useless because it does not see all the loads of the vehicle only alt reference.
Note you will have to extend only the meter coil portion of the gauge to these locations. And leave the A terminal wiring. I would bridge it at the battery side of the solenoid and or the alt big lug to see if that works and ignition switch and it will work better but you will have to try different points in the circuit to get the deflection you desire on the gauge. But the alt charges through the connection at the solenoid so that is an issue. That lead would have to be moved past the solenoid and closer to the ignition switch. Bottom line again is to forget the ammeter and install a voltmeter case closed. You need to get the meter in parallel with in and out loads and the solenoid and ignition switch feed. No need for cutting either as the meter coil is all you need and some 18gauge wire to the gauge coil just might be the best place. You will have to experiment. Maybe from the battery + side to the ignition switch. Some experimenting is needed. You can use an old dash if available with 2 leads soldered to the back of the ammeter as a test.
Bottom line an ammeter has to see in and out loads. So pick a spot and experiment. I will stick with a voltmeter and keep my headache at a minimum. I have other fish to FRY
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: softtouch on February 06, 2015, 05:12:05 PM
The ammeter is a micro-volt meter that measures the voltage drop across the shunt wire. The shunt is a known resistance and knowing the voltage drop, the current (amps) can be calculated. The scale behind the meter needle is marked in the amps that the tiny micro-voltage represents.
If you ever hooked up an buttstuffog voltmeter backwards you know the needle pegs backwards. The ammeter needle is centered when at zero volts so it can swing in either direction. The polarity of the voltage dropped across the shunt depends on which direction the current is flowing.
I have simplified the diagram to show how it works.
I can't believe these ammeters didn't work when cars were built but I can believe a lot of them are broke after 20 years. If you turn on the headlights with the engine off and the ammeter does not move to discharge, it's broke.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 06, 2015, 05:54:10 PM
But the TC is wired differently??? Your print is exactly what i said and how it should be hooked up. Not like the TC print whuich is rediculous. You need top monitor all the in and out current through the shunt. Bottom line is the ammeter is useless anyway. It should work for estedics i agree with that. but as a monitoring device it sucks big time
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: softtouch on February 06, 2015, 07:09:21 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;443974
But the TC is wired differently??? Your print is exactly what i said and how it should be hooked up. Not like the TC print whuich is rediculous. You need top monitor all the in and out current through the shunt. Bottom line is the ammeter is useless anyway. It should work for estedics i agree with that. but as a monitoring device it sucks big time
I used the same 97 TC diagram that Scott posted. I chopped the top part off to just show the black and white part of it and not the shades of gray. The stuff at the top of the diagram is on the battery side of the shunt instead of on the load side. It is all the stuff they added for '87. The ride control, ABS and IRCM. So when the alternator is carrying that load it will move the ammeter in the charge direction. Don't know how much of the load that amounts to. But it's only meant to be an indication of whether the charging system is working or not.
In the old days that shunt was built into the ammeter. They ran that heavy high current wire through the firewall to the dash ammeter. No fuse or fuselink, none of that sissy safety stuff.
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 06, 2015, 09:02:38 PM
You dont have to tell me about it. i know from many years of experience. Still want an AMMETER???? We did this car a few years ago. And the customer wired it. OOPS!!!! Almost lost the car from a shorted alternator. never eliminate fuse links!! Note the heavy ammeter wiring. Chrysler uses a shunt meter in these early cars
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 06, 2015, 09:10:59 PM
Here is the car we did it and it wins at every show it goes to. It is beautiful. The owner regrets that he did not let me do the wiring. Thank God he caught it in time
Title: Working AmpMeter people chime in
Post by: jcassity on February 06, 2015, 10:40:08 PM
Quote from: softtouch;443972
The ammeter is a micro-volt meter that measures the voltage
I can't believe these ammeters didn't work when cars were built but I can believe a lot of them are broke after 20 years. .
that's what we are narrowing down now,,
for some reason I am coming up mathematically, with about 100millivolt, simulating a low battery and getting the math backwards to watts. so I can find ohms
either way, next steps are for mason to continuity test from the instrument cluster all the way out to the engine bay
getting close to the culprit.
funny thing is an open to one side of the ammeter would actually cause this problem,,, if the yellow were still in play and still well protected / cad welded..