Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

A couple free things to check:
1) run codes
2) see if the EEC is advancing the timing by using a timing light and revving up the engine
3) check your fuel pressure at idle with the vacuum hose connected and disconnected
4) look for vacuum leaks as previously mentioned

From there I would suspect your can timing as Haystack pointed out. Did you degree the cam?

Darren

Look for a vacuum leak.  Swap in a 155 LPH pump.  Do a KOEO, KOER, and CM check.

I did remove the distributor, replace the timing gear with a double and of course changed the cam to an HO cam.  Is there a write up on how to do the KOER test?  thank you for all of the suggestions.

You DID reroute the ignition wires to the H.O. firing order, correct? 

Yes I did.  I've now done the TPS/idle adjustment and it no longer surges, and the IAC is working properly.  Now I'm thinking that I just don't have the low end torque I used to have.  My power band is way up in the 3000 rpm and above.  Should I advance the timing?  Trade in my x-pipe for an h-pipe?  Install a higher stall torque converter?  I'm hoping to find a relatively inexpensive solution.  Has any had this issue with their engine upgrade?

Quote from: V8Demon;441904

You DID reroute the ignition wires to the H.O. firing order, correct? 

Yes I did.  I've now done the TPS/idle adjustment and it no longer surges, and the IAC is working properly.  Now I'm thinking that I just don't have the low end torque I used to have.  My power band is way up in the 3000 rpm and above.  Should I advance the timing?  Trade in my x-pipe for an h-pipe?  Install a higher stall torque converter?  I'm hoping to find a relatively inexpensive solution.  Has any had this issue with their engine upgrade?

If you were running say the TFS stage 1 cam and were saying that your low end punch disappeared then yeah, I could see that.  Being that you're running a stock HO cam I would say that there is an issue.  The TW heads flow more than a set of E7 heads all throughout the lift range in bench flow tests.  Swapping from an x-pipe to h-pipe wouldn't make the difference enough to justify.  The converter you have should be a good fit with an HO cam.  No point in throwing parts at it as if it were a mismatched combo.  It will compound your problem as something else is going on.

Code scanner (or test light), timing light, vacuum gauge, and some time.

Then put a light on it, pull the SpOut plug and dial it to 14 degrees btdc.  Ho cams are pretty happy there.  My TFS-1 likes 16, but 14 should be perfect for your setup.

Check the compression. Even if your timing is off by lets say 6* that will not make much difference. If it is off like 16-20 then you found your issue. But i am leaning to low squeeze what is the compression numbers

Most  aftermarket sd tuners are based on oem sd programming. When i spoke with fast about an efi system we used on a 2.3 turbo sandrail, he said the programming was almost identical to a batch fire ford system with the emissions equipment turned off.

The "HO" EECs are sequential...ford truck EEC's (except Lightning) were all batch fire.

And they will do just fine well into block-splitting power levels.

Guess what? Regardless of engine combo OR EEC, at those power levels it is still going to need tuned. If you have a mostly stock engine, or one like an SO converted to HO using "stock" parts from other vehicles, you don't need an aftermarket EEC.

LOL, I guess if one is rich, then go ahead and buy everything in the Jeg's catalog...

Just like guys who put MSD ignition controller boxes on 350 horse Mustangs...just because you can doesn't always mean one needs to.

But stock Ford stuff is slow and old, so best throw it all away and just buy a new camaro. LOL

I think we have gotten far enough off topic here.  Why don't we let the OP check a few things and post back so we can get back to solving the problem with the parts he has on hand?  I think the solution will be in what he is going to check but if not it will definitely be narrowed down.

One thing I would like to see is a color picture of the spark plugs (this would be the base of them where the gap is set) pulled from #1 & #5 only as they are the easiest ones to get to.

Darren

That is my point and CHROME understands this. Bottom line is TFI GONE. BATCH FIRE GONE. Dizzy just for looks and drives the oil pump PERIOD. Ls coils can be used and controlled along with timing. Gm sensors are normally used and are the best. Total Lap top tunable and in reality not that expensive. As 302 points out people have MSD caps rotors control units etc but refuse to buy a wide band. Pulling a plug or two is ok . but a wide band with digital display is where it is at. A simple wide band will tell exactly what is happening. All of us including me are chasing balloons without knowing what hie numbers are. But i will tell you this stock ford ECM'S are barbaric. Slow buttstuffog and so way out of ther ability to be tuned. A stand alone unit is the answer in my opinion Just me. The cost i think is reasonable. We are all here spending money. Some on Body some on drive train and some on engine management. Pick your poison

Got iot ford ECM'S are better than a stand alone. Now with the timing you just told him to doo is fine but without a wide band what are you trying to prove. We do not know anything without it.  So as he explained he has set the timing all over the place NOW WHAT TJ 302??? The FORD ECM'S are barbaric at best. And GM has the best ones. Totally tunable and i have been tuning them for years with a lap top. Many people use GM ECM'S in other vehicles as well. Ok so you are sequential NOW WHAT. Where do we go from here Hurray Sequential injection and still runs like shiznit

Ok so someone told Stacks that there systems are exactly like the ford tune on the 2.3. Please inform Stinger on this as his PIMP is selling like hot cakes. Here is the deal anytime an engine is modified the ecm has to be tuned. Period . Or modified IE Mass air or speed density. If yo feel the ford ECMis the answer go for it. If you want modern flexibility and digital go stand alone. Simple. Either way you need a wide band to find out where you are at. If i dynowed a car without a Wide band how do i know where my A/F ratio is ?????????? Or should i just guess TJ302.

Ok not saying that.

What i am saying anyone running a stock EEC can pick up 15-20% better performance from a stand alone.

my Camaro i can tune the computer with a laptop. So price out the components and figure out the difference. For lets say 200 bucks more he can join the 21 century on ECM tuning. If he wants to go the other way FINE.

Right now his car is not running right and i assume he just sunk a bunch of cash in to it with thinking he could gain some HP.

I would assume whoever built the engine checked the timing. If not he really has an issue. Also his compression numbers are good so i am going to assume his cam is in time. unless someone else disagrees!!!!!!!! Just a thought Stock Ford 2.3 ECM can barely handle 300 WHEEL. Be good and have a happy holiday!

Agreed that timing should be checked - also be sure that you have the distributor in the right position "range".
I don't know much about what actually makes this tick, but I'm 99% sure you need the TFI module (the gray thin "box" that's attached to the housing below the cap/rotor assembly) to be cutting about a 45 degree angle if you stand right in front of the car, at the peak of the hood, and stare at the distributor. If you rotate it as far as it will sitting in the engine, with the ignition on, you'll hear relays and the fuel pump clicking on and off. The computer does need it to be in a certain spot. Can't just shift all of the plug wires by one position counter-/clockwise. Tried that, didn't get away with it LOL. Definitely caused a refusal of the car to idle at all.

You definitely shouldn't run out of fuel low in the rpm range in my opinion. The setup shown in my signature runs on the py stock fuel pump as way back when, I found the locking collar on the tank to be rusted enough that it scared me. Shockingly, I *have* gotten away with this as far as I know. I could be running out of fuel on the top end, but I feel like it pulls strong to the engine speed that it should with a stock HO camshaft. It idles very well, has around-town road manners that even grandma would be happy with, and blows the tires off from a dead stop (with a 3000 rpm converter). You should not need a very loose converter, your 3.73s should do a great deal of tire-spinning on their own. You surely have a nice clean fuel tank lock ring, so go ahead and toss that pump in, you'll be ready for future horsepower....

I also believe that an aftermarket ECM is needed to go beyond that 400 HP mark.

The "HO" EECs are sequential...ford truck EEC's (except Lightning) were all batch fire.

And they will do just fine well into block-splitting power levels.

Uh again all 86 and up 5.0 passenger car engines (Mustang, Thunderbird, Crown Victoria etc) are all SEQUENTIAL MULTIPORT FUEL INJECTION. You know just like a new car. GM kept the batch fire setup till 93 on the Camaro. 86 and up Mustang never had a batch fire setup. GM was late to the party as far as sequential fuel injection goes.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present Tom Renzo.  The most crucified man on the forum.  **applause**

I've seen plenty with more than that to the rear tires with a stock A9x style Mass Air setup and they ran and idled perfectly fine. .

Why have people been saying that these ECUs's are all batch?  Plenty of literature out there from Ford and they're engineering staff whos designed these to support that. 
.

No apology needed.  Just stating my experiences/what I've seen.

The reason I'm adamant is personal experience. For most of the year of 2014, there was a procharged '95 Mustang sitting next to my junk. The pulley on the 'charger is (supposedly) good for about 150 horses, so 220 (give or take) plus 150 (give or take) is 370, again, give or take.

But it would've been 15-20% more if he had a pimp, twEECer, twix, butterfinger, or baby ruth instead of the stock electronics.

His mods: 24 pound injectors. We also did a "burnout show" with both that car (before the procharger) and my Sport. Sadly Tom, my cloud of vaporized Michelin was greater than yours.

I've also had a little bit to do with some other Mustangs, from simple bolt ons up to one other blown car...that one had a vortech.

Yes, one CAN make more power with aftermarket controls. They're probably easier to work with, and you can delete stuff like EGR an O2's if you're into that. BUT, it's overkill for the OP, and not relevant to his issue in the first place. And, if you shop around, you CAN find stock Ford EEC's cheaper than the aftermarket control stuff. Fact. Don't go quoting internet mumbo jumbo just because someone said it somewhere...do the research.
Let the guy spend his money on stuff that will fix his current issue before buying parts that he doesn't need, to help a problem that isn't affected by the current EEC that he does have.

Anyway, I'm done here, sorry to have done more than my share of thread shiznitting. Trying to explain things to a brick wall is tiresome.

Why not just tune the stock computer? Still oughta figure out what is actually wrong first.

the cheapest Ford EEC I have found on the internet for MAF upgrade has been for around $300.

Ok.  you guys are freakn geniuses.  I had to go buy a timing light and a dist wrench this AM.  Luckily O'Reilly was open.  Familiarizing myself with the timing light,  I strobed the balancer  and noted that it was reading just around 10-11 degrees BTDC.  Shut the engine off,  pulled out the jumper/connector (I don't know the name of it -- it keeps the computer from advancing the timing), and re-shot.  The timing was about 2-3 degrees BTDC.  So I advanced it but couldn't get past 8 degrees BTDC because the big connector hit the radiator hose inlet.  So now if your looking from center of the front of the car,  the connector is pointing right at you.  Somebody mentioned that it should be at a 45 degree angle -- I must be off a tooth or something then.  Anyway,  I tightened and put the 'plug' back in.  It was a tremendous improvement!  It didn't lug out at low RPMs -- it had way more power.    My idle was off and it stalled a couple of times when I first put it in gear, but I can muck with that.

So now that I can't advance beyond 8 degrees BTDC,  what do I do?  Do I just pull the distributor out, re-clock and stick it back in?  Do I have to remove the upper intake to do it?

Advance the wires one tower pull back the timing to whatever you want to run. We normally use 14*BTDC. No need to remove the DIZZY. Like i said many guys do not remove the spout when timing them. Basically you were down 7* from speck and that is not that much but if it is ok that is a good thing. Like i said going over a few builds we did that setup should and does work OK .Never trust someone else to do things right.

PIP
For ignition timing purposes, the metal rotor will have a number of equal-sized tabs and windows matching the number of engine cylinders. This produces a uniform square wave output since the on/off (shielding and exposure) time is equal. This signal is used by the engine computer or ECU to control ignition timing. And injector pulses

I had an issue years back with an MSD dizzy that was for a batch fire engine in a sequential ECM. It ran but it did not react properly and low on HP.

To the OP,

Have you checked to see if the car is throwing any codes?  You need to start with the free stuff like this, looking at the plugs, and checking for vacuum leaks. Another question I have is when you did the conversion did you also install new plugs, rotor, cap, plug wires or did you just leave the old stuff on the motor?

Darren

I'll check the codes this PM after work.  Yeah,  just kept the old stuff -- the spark plugs were new before I did the upgrade.

Wait are you reusing the spark plugs from the stock heads? If so then we have a winner! The stock plugs can not be used in Twisted Wedge heads. You need either Autolite 3924 or Motorcraft AGSP32C plugs for Twisted Wedge heads. Theses spark plugs are gasketed long reach plugs. The stock plugs won't work correctly because 1: they are too short to reach into the combustion chamber fully causing incomplete burn/spark knock and 2: they are not gasketed so combustion gases may leak. Get the stock plugs out asap and put the correct plugs for the Twisted Wedge heads in there.

Unless it was a GM vehicle, I don't see how the engine or any mechanical part could care any less whether the EEC tells it that it's going to pulse the injectors sequentially, or in either bank of 4 (or 3, if it's a V6).

Elaborate..? :)

Not calling you out, I'm sincerely curious as to why the distributor of all things made a difference in regards to bank vs sequential.

Or maybe I've forgot all the stuff I picked up back in the very early 2000's when I was researching doing an HO swap on my '92 F series.. ;)

one question I never could get answered..

the finned windows that pass through the stator magnetic field...... does the eec keep the injector triggered on when the stator is in the "open window" or the "closed" window.

something tells me the eec is turning on a given injector when the magnetic field on the stator has an open window ,, the metal fin passing in front of the stator determines the time the next injector to fire in line is off.

With the compression numbers he posted on #1 all he needs to do is plug off the spark plug hole on the #1 cylinder with some wadded up paper towel and roll the motor over by hand. It will pop the paper towel out on the compression stroke. From there you can use a thin screw driver and continue to roll the motor by hand until TDC is achieved.  This is done by feeling the piston move up the cylinder with the thin screw driver. It will top out, there will be a dead spot where it will not move, and then it will start to fall. TDC is whrn the piston no longer rises.  I would be shocked if this does not end up with the pointer showing zero on the balancer. From there drop the distributor in and time it.

Darren

A T5 HO car with 3.55 gears has no trouble at all breaking the rear loose. I could even do it at a roll if the tires were cold.

Is this the guy that worked on your car??

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-68.jpg)

HaHaHa!  Bit out of focus but looks familiar (maybe seen him in the mirror).  I put in those spark plugs and engine runs a lot smoother.  I think I'm almost there.  Going to play with the timing a bit more and install the high flow pump.    Thanks again everyone for the great advice and discussion!