Just what exactly does it take to go to a carb? Does anyone have a detailed list? I was having this thought today. PLUS, it MIGHT be cool to have my hood an actual Ram Air functioning piece. Just curios. Enlighten my my peeps....
I'm carbed. Now going back to efi. To go to carb Is easy but for one who changes there mind alot and may want to go back to efi it's not that easy. I took a Sawzall and cut all wires on pass side firewall and pushed them in and pulled computer and put it in a box. Found keyed on power used msd ready to run distributor and 6al. Key power to fuel pump. Then bypass fuel regulator to carb. Lost water temperature and tach, oil press gauges
Does the tach go through the computer? I wouldn't cut the harnesses. I'd just remove them and fab a panel for the firewall. If I go this route, there will be no turning back. I would need to know all the details. What wires to tap into, ...everything.
You would still have to tune a carburetor car just like an EFI car. It is cheaper to do yes but the EFI car will have better drivability.
With your setup, what would be the gain? I'm not trying to be a tool, just a legitimate question.
I prefer the driveablity of EFI in my daily drivers, just because I just don't have the knack for getting carbs tuned right. They either stumble on takeoff, run like when it's cold out (my current issue on my 82, lol), not very good on gas, etc. Some people have the knack and can make a carb sing. I am not that guy, heh.
I moved to a county with no emissions. I keep getting drawn back to the carbed intake pages of the hotrod mags i got laying around.
Only thing that would really bug me is the gas mileage. I have a 100 mile plus commute daily.
Well the bottom line is simple. EFI will outperform out drive and run better than any carb. That is newer systems will. But with the systems on these cars it is a toss up. OBD1 Ford systems as like Chevy and Chrysler are a bit to be desired. They are batch fire and basically stone age systems. But with that said EFI is better by far but not to far. Carbs are simple they work and at WOT make the same HP as the EFI systems we are dealing with. Now modern EFI systems are a different animal. If i were you i would keep the setup and fix it or go STAND ALONE and that is the CATS BUTT. By the way you need a wide band Vinny. Without one you are in the dark as to what you engine is doing. Most people do not understand this concept. A/F ratio gauge is the most important gauge a car can have.
I'm doing research to see if it's a swap I may decide to do. Looking for what it takes to do it, what parts are involved, and the little bits to make it all happen.
I do understand that a carb needs tuning as well. I know a lot of guys in this area that can handle that easily. I am not one to rush into a decision like this without doing some research and weighing the options. There are no Fox body EFI guys around. I'm on my own with the EFI stuff here on this (with help from you guys here on the forum).
I still have to run codes on the current setup as soon as I get the time (Time has become super hard to come by around here with the new job position). The last time I ran codes when it was doing the same thing, it didn't show anything that helped. Maybe this time will be different. But I am tired of messing with the EFI. Sensors and the rest on the old Bird. The thought of making that scoop in the hood actually functional for ram Air is also quite appealing. I'm going to continue on my quest to get this bloody car to run as it should, and the carb swap, IF it happens, wouldn't be until next early summer. I still gotta finish paying for my heads first. But in the meantime, I'm gathering a parts list, and information on the swap.
I have been told about drivabiity being better with an EFI car, BUT, with good parts, I've also seen VERY dependable carbed cars. Our winter here is about 6 weeks long. We don't have the long periods of bad weather and all to tend to, and I have seen many quality, great running carbed cars here. I would keep everything else as it is. Just lose the EFI, gain a carb. Then, grab a piece of aluminum, fab a factory looking panel for the hood, and also fab a factory appearing air cleaner for Ram Air. Also, if all works out the way I think it will, I'll be getting a different car next year and the Sport will be for weekends and fun driving. Losing it's daily driver status.
Tom, we can go all over the Carb vs. EFI thing all day, but I just want to gather info. My budget is not as big as yours, I do not have access to anything and everything like you do. You have to think like a guy on a tiny budget, with a normal house garage, not a shop with all of the diagnostic equipment and other means that a shop for hire has. If I had the means, it would have a pro built 5.8 with EFI and all the love money can buy and dyno tuning, etc. That's not the world I am in.
Ok
1 Manifold
2 Carb
3 Distributor
4 Pressure regulator to drop the fuel pressure or replace the pump with a low pressure electric one.
5 Full weekend to convert it
6 Air cleaner of your choice.
Yeah, that's pretty much the list I have. I gotta get all the little details on the rest. Fuel pick up, keeping the gauges functional, what all would be lost without the ECM...if anything...all those little bits.
By the way, Tom, no offense intended on the previous post. I always appreciate any help you give, and welcome your info at all times.
I really don't think going carbed is a solution. You will be even more aggravated if the issue persists after swapping over. Daily driver or not, I'd stick with EFI on a factory-equipped EFI vehicle. The computer HELPS your setup run better - the o2 sensors help it know all the small variables of your setup, and adjust for them. With a carb, small variables can have an even larger impact on how your car runs (or not).
There's always the option of a drop-in AEM computer in place of the EEC-IV. It can be as dumbed-down or feature-rich as you'd like. They even have an addon to go coil on plug, and ditch the distributor. The thing sells for around $600 on eBay.
Vinnie,
I would hate to see you convert to a carb but I know how you like to research things to here you go. It is as easy as Tom's list. To keep your gauges functional you will need to get an electrical wiring diagram of your car (EVT should be available to you from one of the guys here) as the tach, oil pressure, water temp all come from the ten pin connectors (salt and pepper shakers) on the injection harness. Doing this to a T-Bird is functionally and electronically (for the most part) no different than a Fox Mustang so I would suggest that you do some lurking over on the Corral to get a more defined list of what is needed. Some guys have done it with the stock high pressure fuel pumps and others have converted over to a Holley blue or black pump.
With that being said, dyno time is usually around $75 an hour and you could simply have them look at the AF on the car for $75 and how it is performing over the rpm range with a pull or two. It may simply be that you need a chip.
Darren
did i miss something? you say youre thinking of swapping to fix an issue, but what exactly is the issue?
Actually, the biggest reason I'm THINKING about the swap is this....planning on getting another car next year for all the driving to work and so on. I would really like to make the hood a functional Ram Air piece. I really like the air cleaners on the old Torinos and Stangs with the ram air hoods. Now, IF that also relieves me of a lot of electronic gremlins and issues. That would make me very happy as well. I am tired of dealing with the isues I'm having. Actually, I'm sick of trying to figure the issues out. Funds are always extremely limited to say the least for this car, making it even harder. I would love to be able to afford the high dollar parts and management sytems available, but the bottom line, not happening. SO, something will have to give. Carb tuners are easy to find around here as there are a couple of local tracks with HUGE followings in this area. No EFI Fox guys. Just Fox carb people. Now, IF I decide to go carb, it wouldn't happen til next summer. Time to gather parts over months, make plans, and go from there. I have another thread that details the issues I'm having with the Sport.
I am not asking for a debate on carb verses EFI. I'm researching the swap, then I'll look into the work to be done and parts for that swap, and go from there. I like my EFI when it's right. It hasn't been right for two or three months. I've owned carbed and EFI cars. I've actually had more issues with EFI than a carb setup. IF I go carb, it'll be a Demon carb on an Edelbrock intake, and I will find an appropriate air cleaner to fit the ram air cause.
It's a thought at this moment. Not written in stone. IF I can get this "bleeping" car running right, maybe my way of thinking will change, maybe not. But for now....research.
My list of parts consists of the following at this time
-low pressure fuel pump
-Carburetor
-intake manifold
-air cleaner
-Some fuel line
-throttle cable
-distributor
-Maybe a 6AL box....(unsure of this for sure)
I rarely make decisions quickly. I'll flip flop back and forth until I am either happy with EFI or I decide that a carb set up IS the way I want to go. As I stated, in the mean time, I am continuing my quest to get the current EFI stuff working as it should. I appreciate you guys on this forum. Always have. Best info I have ever gotten for my car over all these years.
If you buy one of these, try to do it first, and install it with the EFI setup. It may help if your issue is ignition related.
I've never even looked at one. Is it plug and play? Lay some details on me.
It's pretty close. You can buy a harness to plug it directly into your factory wires.
http://www.americanmuscle.com/msd-6a-digital-ignition-7995-install.html
MSD 6AL Ignition controller
MSD 8874 Harness
MSD 8910EIS Tach adapter
My "fun " cars are carb....wouldn't have any thing else. My daily drivers (Mercedes,Ridgeline) are EFI and I wouldn't change it. I know my way around a carb and dist pretty good so tuning is not an issue ( I actually built a 4 corner idle 750 from scratch back in the 80s). If you have to rely on locals to tune a carb, stick with EFI.
Relying on a "local" for carb advice can't be as bad as having to rely on those living 900 miles from me for EFI help. There's nobody around here who deals with modified EFI cars. Other than the hood and paint, I built the car, and some things I excel at, some things just aren't my thing. Electrical diagnosing, and this engine issue. The rest I have pretty much controlled. This whole carb idea has different reasons behind it. The idea of my scooped hood actually doing what that scoop was designed for really appeals to me, the cleanliness under the hood, and once it's dialed in, the simplicity of a carb. I know a carb needs to be tuned and dialed in, but once it is, it is. On my carbed cars in my life....77,78,78 Thunderbird, three 76 Grand Prix's, 79 Cougar, 74 GMC truck, NONE of them ever needed carb work, they all started and ran great in any weather. So being without EFI is not a scary thought. And carburetors have come a long way. So, as I stated, it's research. Finding out the work involved, the wiring, the mods and what can go and what remains.
Again, this thread is research, not a debate on EFI verses carburetors. As I stated, IF I do this, it'll be next summer. Time to acquire parts and formulate a plan of attack.
For the money, carbs are quicker and much less to go wrong. You give up driveability if you want max power, but a good tune can get you best of both worlds.
I learned to drive on a 1982 Mazda pick up truck. Drove it quite a bit for about 4 years. We swing in temps from -15 to 110 almost every year and have elevations that range from about 1000 above sea level to over 10,000 feet that can be done in a few hours drive time. I never once had to tune the carb. It had a choke but i rarely used it. A couple pumps of the throttle and it fired right up, once warm ran fine, and could get 30mpg out of the little inline 4.
Overall, i feel performance is way easier with a carb and as a weekend toy would keep you plenty happy.
I was trying to find a link to Jason fletcher web site, carbedford. Seems to have been taken down.
Vinnie , if not mentioned already , you will need to hook up a kick down lever/cable for the trans. From the carb !!!!
Not with a t-5.
This is true...... I forgot he was running a manual !!!!
My opinion is strictly personal beliefs that one should not back date the technology on a car unless there are no other options. I didn't settle for the carb excuse on my 85 CFI 5.0 in 1997 and to this day still don't think its a logical swap. Spend more money to achieve less driveablity and less MPG.
If I sold the EFI equipment on my car that I have now , it would bring in enough to cover all costs and maybe a bit more. Now, like I said, I'm researching the idea. I would really like to have a factory-ish air cleaner for ram air mated to the hood in a proper Ford way. I think it would be cool. Miles per gallon isn't really the top priority, or I would have a bone stock 5.0 and AOD in it with the 2.73 gears. I am a believer that a good carb set up is very reliable. I also stated that this is not an EFI verses carb thread. It really doesn't matter which is better. I'm seeking details and infor mation on the swap. Wiring to keep the factory gauges and other non-intake parts working as they should. I drive two miles to work, two miles home. That's 90% of my driving, so in the end, I could care less if the Sort dropped a few miles per gallon. Once I get all the info I need, have it all written down, the research the parts and cost for everything, I will decide then what I want to do. SO, I'm taking in all I can on what I initially asked about.......
What parts?
What work needs to be done?
What parts of the harness go?
What parts of the harness stay?
How do I keep the gauges active?
I'm trying to make a nice little planned out manual for myself before I decide what route I choose to travel. I appreciate all the input. Thanks a lot.
You will also need a throttle bracket and throttle cable. I had a Lokar cable and CSI bracket on my car when it was a carbed 302 now that it is a 351 with carb it sits a touch taller so I had to get another Lokar cable as the other one was about two inches too short. I also switched to a different bracket as I liked how they did the return springs on it as it helped clear the fogger setup versus the way I had them installed with the CSI bracket. I did some research via Google and you can run the EFI pump with a carb setup you just need a specific regulator to do it. I think it will also take some fitting adapters to reuse the stock fuel lines.
I'm up in Tulsa and run to Lawton on a pretty regular basis and have my injected 331 Coupe so I know a thing or two about fuel injection so there is someone closer than 900 miles.
Darren
Thanks darren. Yep, you are a lot closer than 900 miles. LOL.
As far as ables and brackets and all, I haven't taken a lot of time yet to look at it all. I will, though. Looking at carbs and intakes as well. I am trying to formulate an "instruction manual" to do this job so IF I do it, I have all my info ready, parts list planned out, and ready to go. Like the exact way to keep the gauges functioning, what will be effected by the loss of the ECM, what all goes away, the proper fuel set up from front to back....etc.
I am still dedicating my outside time to getting the EFI to run right. Still have to run codes and all. Time is super limeted. But that's another thread. This is carb stuff.
The EEC-IV system/ecu installed in the 86-88 Cougar/Thunderbird, 86-92 Lincoln Mark VII, 86-93 Ford Mustang, and 86-91 Crown Vic/Grand Marq/Town Car is in fact SEFI. Under CRANKING conditions only are they in a batch mode. When running they are SEFI.
More than you ever wanted to know about that HERE (http://"http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/EEC%20Help%20files/Files/GFUB.pdf")
The NRUN scalr tells the PCM at what RPM the switchover is.
My opinion: Keep the EFI. Once you get it settled you'll be happy. Not only that, but sometimes it can be an easier sell should you need/decide to part with the car someday.
I thought they were SEFI, but wasnt sure enough to say anything. lol
vinnie, if you getting rid of any EFI parts let me know... I'm in need of a few to convert the vert to EFI
Will do Jerry. I still have headers for you when you're ready for them. Send me a list of what you will be needing. If I keep EFI, I'll help you find parts. If not, then you're covered. Either way, I'll do my best for you. ONYFTA !!!
Well my laptop died while typing my first response, and it took me about 20 minutes, so I'm going to abbreviate this one a bit. It's funny, Carb guys want to go EFI, and now EFI guys want to go Carb.
I know this thread is about what you would need to make it work. And I imagine the list you have is fairly complete, but I would keep the harness. It'd plug it and keep it in the car incase you want to go back(Which I think you will). It'd use a regulator and keep your current pump, that way you can adjust it and get another psi or tweak it if you need it.
Secondly, once EFI is dialed in, and fuel maps created, they are done, barring any catastrophic changed. Carbs always have to be changed. 20 degrees and humidity/elevation and make a carb barely operate. Going up steep inclines, etc can all have an effect on carbs. They are almost never tuned perfect, there's always a give or take. Bigger jets, for more top end, but you lose responsiveness. You may never get it perfect, and the time you'd have spent converting it, you could spend on fixing whatever problem you're having with the stock setup. Change the exhaust on the car, your carb may need to be tuned, again. To me, it seems like it would be counter productive. EFI and computers can compensate for minor things. I'm just trying to give you a taste of what you may experience.
Which I couldn't find a thread about, what's going on? Maybe we can help?
Now I don't know what carb you'd chose, it would probably be somewhere around a 650-700 cfm. It'd shy away from Edelbrock. Secondly, carbs are "open" systems, so if you romp on it, or are cruising down the highway, and let off, you sometimes may smell fuel. The cam specs aren't in your sig, but if you have a high lift cam, you may need a vacuum canisters to your distributors vacuum advance.
I know people here will argue that carbs can have the same atomization as Fuel Injection, and thats true, but FI and the computers are infinitely tunable, where as carbs/jets/metering rods are stepped, and your engine may be better suited with something other than what's available. I feel like this would especially apply to you whereas you aren't stock.