Figured you'd all enjoy this. Not seen with the naked eye, unless using peripheral vision to look for very dim flashes. The entire engine bay appeared to be flashing. This is what I saw with the camera and a 202-second exposure:
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/arcing.jpg)
Stock replacement coil, these wires: http://www.americanmuscle.com/ford-9mm-plugwires-7995-red.html
There may be something to running the wires perfectly, rather than just tucking them where they'd fit. Or just junk wires. I'll be replacing and re-checking spark plug gaps tomorrow. Of course, anti-seize and dielectric grease are used.
very cool looking
What brand of wires are in the picture and how old are they? Good info for those looking at new plug wires so they can avoid them.
Darren
They're the red ones I linked to. I found people on mustang forums complaining about those same wires, especially with stronger coils.
Not sure why they are reviewed so well. One wire was also a couple inches shorter than the same wire in any other plug wireset I've used.
They are probably 5-6 years old. I've had a weird idle for many years in this car though. It just seems to be getting worse lately, so I took a look - I assume the arcing has started to finish off the wires. They still "look" fine, but also consistently dirty. I'd need to clean them and inspect close for burn damage.
I apply dielectric to the ceramic, but not the tip of the plug. Anti-seize on the plugs. My engine ground "looks" fine - no breakage and the copper is still shiny. I may replace that with some new, larger wire though, with soldered connections.
The camera with long-exposure does something similar in this picture as you would see on sky or water photos - all the fine movements of each arc get added up, turning into a blur. The picture tells me that all of these thousands of arcs in that picture are widespread in many areas, but the arcing is occurring in a smaller area in some places.
I was "seeing" dozens of faint flashes per second in various areas. The camera simply reinforced what I thought I was seeing. Some of the flashes I was seeing were reflections off of other surfaces.
I have run those FRPP 9mm wires for years but no more. A couple of months ago I noticed that the engine in my Thunderbird was idling funny. Not missing per say but it sounded different at idle. Above idle it was fine. For fun I decided to start the car in a dark garage. I got a similar light show to the one you saw. Little flashes of light from different wires at different times. The sad thing is that the wires I was running were 4 years old with maybe 4000 miles on them (they had replaced my previous set where I had burned a couple of boot on the header). I replaced the FRPP 9mm wires with a set of MSD Super Conductor 8.5mm wires. I noticed no real performance difference but my car's idle is much better.
I have those wires in black on my car. It kinda idles funky too. Got me wondering now.
So the parts store wires are doing no better. I routed them differently, and re-gapped my plugs from .050 to .045. Cap and rotor still looked new.
Wires just thrown in, but placed away from as many metal surfaces as possible:
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/arcing2.jpg)
Wires put into plastic retainers to keep them in place...I couldn't get the coil to distributor routed well, so it's arcing on the intake:
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/arcing3.jpg)
It idles a little better (maybe), but I still hear an issue through the exhaust note. All of that may simply be me having no o2 sensors in, and no wideband for monitoring, so I could be dumping a little extra fuel into the exhaust and getting some ignition there.
Oh, and ignore the other purple light on top of the intake/near firewall. I forgot to unplug my garage speakers, and their LEDs are pretty bright.
I almost forgot - I have the spark plug from cylinder 7 that has orange porcelain on the inside. Rest of the plug looked fine.
I can't find anything online about a single orange plug.
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/sparkplugs1.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/sparkplugs2.jpg)
http://www.autolite.com/media/11838/plugtips.pdf
Looks like glazing to me.
Darren
May be right, but I don't understand just the one plug showing it. I'll have to check that cylinder's injector, plug wire, and ignition system resistance. Could also just be a weird plug that needs replacement.
Most just change the plug. If it happens again then that injector gets swapped to another cylinder to see if it follows the injector. Now you seem to have some tools and knowledge that 90% don't so if you can check out the plug wire, injector, and ignition system resistance then it saves the labor of swapping things around. My guess is it happened with the bad plug wires you had and you just need a fresh set of plugs.
Darren
Here's where it gets weird. When I was looking for the source of my odd idle sound I pulled the plugs. Everything looked the same except for number 7. It had a bit of an orange/brown cast
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/thunderjet302/Thunderbird%20web/20140927_112532_resized_zps25bc9858.jpg) (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/thunderjet302/media/Thunderbird%20web/20140927_112532_resized_zps25bc9858.jpg.html)
I find it odd that both of us would have an ignition/injector issue on number 7. I wonder if this has something to do with the air/fuel ration from the number 7 intake runner? It would make sense as we both have GT40 intakes.
I have 30lb injectors to go in, which I can do any day now that I have access to my Quarterhorse again. I'll get those swapped in and simply see what happens.
My 24lbers were near maxed out at 5k rpms with my old gt40p heads and unported lower intake. With the new torque converter, I can move the transmission's shift point up higher, since the car was still gaining power at the old 5k shift point (12" torque converters and their rpm limitations suck).
As far as cylinder 7 - I'll have to look at old pictures, but I think my iron heads were fine across all cylinders. With aluminum, I have this issue now. Who knows where the injectors were previously though - they got mixed up during the head swap last year. BUT, if anyone remembers, I think I remember seeing the valves in one combustion chamber that looked different than the rest. There were pictures on here at some point. Not sure if cylinder 7, but it's certainly possible I've had a dud cylinder for quite awhile. That right there may tell me that I have an ignition or injector issue, or something weird with the intake runners on 7.
Of course, that plug needs replacement. It may no longer ignite properly if it was ever running poorly.
Here's the earlier thread - looks like cylinder #7 or #2. With the pictures I took for that thread, it looks like I pulled that head from the passenger side, so cylinder #2. Seems like a consistent issue though - injector problem most likely.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?35582-What-was-wrong-with-this-cylinder-%28pics%29
I still think it has something to do with the runner design. I remember pulling plugs when I had GT40P heads and #7 looked similar. In both instances the plug is not fully orange/brown like yours but has a slight tint on one side. I moved the injectors around with the head swap so I know it can't be the injector. The car passes a cylinder balance test fine so I just ignore it.
Did some reading and it seems like a few people have issues with #3 & #7 with these intakes. I saw more complaints on the #7 cylinder being lean than any other. One guy posted up that #7 & #8 fire sequentially and that if you have the wires bunched up together and the wires are bad it can cause those two cylinders to fire at the same time. Just food for thought. Also, cylinders #7 & #8 are the last to get fuel so you may want to step up to those 30 lb/hr injectors and tune it.
I run 42's on my Coupe with a 255 lphr pump, stock lines, & stock rails and believe me it is not lean. Took the tuner no time at all to get it right and it fixed my issue of the motor just laying over at about 5,200 rpm when I had the 24 lb/hr injectors.
Darren
So this is a GT40 intake issue? And my car is probably leaning out a higher RPM. I'm kinda surprised the 24lb injectors aren't enough.
What brand wires are those? Like I said I switched to MSD 8.5mm Super Conductor wires and have no more light show.
Yeah, I was at ~92% duty cycle at 5k rpms, with a 12.6:1 AFR. Obviously, 30lb injectors are needed, and playing with the AFR a bit more to fine-tune it.
The tune for new injectors takes seconds to add and write to the Quarterhorse. I just need to pull the intake and get them installed! I haven't done it yet due to Binary Editor licensing issues (I swap computers often, and Clint has more recently made it next to impossible to migrate to a new machine), but that is sorted as of Tuesday. Fixed my DFCO settings so the car doesn't try to stall out in the 33-40mph range. Higher stall converter makes lower-speed DFCO not possible without killing the engine.
An interesting thing - I have 3.55's back in the car now, but can no longer break traction. Last week, with the 3.08's, from a roll at 15mph, flooring the pedal with the 3000 stall converter would break traction. Yesterday when it was not raining, I couldn't do the same thing. I don't get it. I need to get the wideband hooked back up and see what's going on. The computer probably learned something on the drives Monday/Tuesday for the gear swap, even without o2 sensors attached. Seems to be running lean now.
Hope to get my new midpipe bolted up this weekend for both the better mandrel bends, and a non-broken cat (driver side rattles really loud), install new injectors, and see about returning these wires with evidence of poor insulation. I'd like to find a set that will never arc, even if running alongside bare metal. The Ford Racings ones aren't it, and the parts store wires seem to leak just as bad, with a stock ~20k Volt ignition system. I can only imagine what an aftermarket 50k + Volt coil would do through the wires...
How visible were your arcs before? I was going to look at the MSD wires - I assume they'd try to make them handle their higher voltage coils.
The new wires I have were some factory-replacement things from Baxter Auto Parts. I figured maybe my Ford Racing wires were just bad so I'd try any set I could get my hands on. They are just as bad, so they will be going back to the store as "faulty".
The arcs with the FRPP wires were visible in a dark garage. I could see the spark at certain points along each wire. It was different with each wire but it was always at a point after a bend/curve in the wire. #3 was visible right above the plug boot. I couldn't see the spark the length of each wire like in your image (which is probably caused by the long exposure time) just at certain spots. After I swapped to the MSD wires I did the same test (dark garage at night). Nothing. No light show. I should note that all my wires are in the factory plastic looms so no wires touch bare metal. The FRPP wires were flashing without touching any metal engine parts.
Actually, I will put in the new injectors tonight, return my new wires, pick up a new plug set, reinstall my old wires, and wait for some Firecore 50-series wires to ship. They seem to be loved by all, and around the same price as the MSD wires.
I'm guessing since it took certain conditions to see the arcing, and only the camera can really pick it up, the arcing may be common-place. As long as they are routed well, the old wires should work fine for the time being.
May also tackle the midpipe. The biggest question I have is whether I'll have clearance issues around the shifter linkage mount on the transmission. I also have a couple small bent areas on the end of the pipe from shipping damage - just need to hammer that back out. Picked up a BBK catted midpipe to get something with factory catback boltup locations. New lers and tail pipes are next.
Some discussions on several of the Mustang boards praise the Ford Racing units with the occasional nay sayer. Several other brands pop up such as these:
Firecore50
http://www.uprproducts.com/mustang-ignition-wires-firecore50.html - P/N FIRE-PF2000 with a cost of $105.00
Magnecore
http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/files/catalog.pdf - P/N 80149 with a cost of $169.40
AFS
http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/anderson-super-40-spark-plug-wires-purple-fits-86-93-5-0l-mustang/ - P/N AF-S40P with a cost of $175.00
Taylor
http://www.jegs.com/i/Taylor/895/84058/10002/-1?parentProductId=759354#moreDetails - P/N 895-84058 at a cost of $72.00
MSD
http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD/121/5541/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710606270&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000848289&cadevice=c&gclid=CMTfrZ6I1cECFZaCaQodZSsA6Q - P/N 5541 at a cost of $42.00
I think until you get into the $100+ range you are not going to see shiznit for difference.
Darren
I used these MSD wires: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-31329/overview/make/ford/model/mustang
They are different than the street fire set.
Yeah, available with Prime shipping from Amazon, but I think my issue is less related to the wires, more related to that odd cylinder. The old iron heads had one odd cylinder also, so hopefully the new injectors smooth out idle. I will wait for the Firecores, then maybe try a stronger coil later just to see if they can still contain the additional voltage.
Hopefully the "Ford Racing" injectors work better than the wires: http://www.americanmuscle.com/mustang-ev6-30-injectors.html
Did you see where they support up to 385 hp? Most people jump on it not realizing that is flywheel hp not rear wheel hp. My 24's were pegged out as I could not get past 290 rwhp with my old 306. All we did was install the 42's and it came up to 318 rwhp and the idle was much better as we did not have them pegged out.
Darren
If you're talking to me, I know the limitations of the 24lbers. Ideally, they should be dropped once you start getting a little over 300hp. They can support more, but you lose the safety margin, and it depends on the AFR. Note that the EEC will command much richer mixtures on cold start, or cooler temperatures. Seeing what the injectors do immediately at 0-degrees ambient temperature, cold start, wot, is a good point to build from. Of course, I don't recommend going WOT on a cold motor/oil.
It wasn't too much of an issue with the p-heads, big 12" converter, and whatnot, but it should be a major issue with the new parts and once I re-tune the transmission for 6k shift points, and review the datalogs. I wanted to put my 30lb injectors in before that point. Everything on my laptop is ready to get back into tuning though, so I have quite a bit of things I can accomplish over the next 3-days.
I've had the pressure cranked up on my 24's to 48 PSI since I put them in years ago. THey're not enough for my combo at stock pressure. Ideally I should just cave in and step up to a larger size.
You know back when I had GT40P heads going from 19lb injectors to 24lb injectors was consistently worth 1mph at the track, which means I picked up 10rwhp from an injector swap. I had the car on a dyno at a local Mustang club dyno day and it made 237rwhp with GT40P heads, so about 300 at the flywheel. With the Edelbrock heads the car is consistently 5mph faster, which means the car picked up 40-50hp. I bet I'm past the 326hp 24lb injectors are good for at 85% duty cycle at 39psi. I've got no codes about adaptive fuel limit reached though so I've let the injectors alone.
Don't forget BSFC comes into play. Generally the average h/c/i upgrade will lower it, which is a good thing.
Put my 30lb injectors in, installed my old Ford Racing wires, and sent the new injector parameters to the EEC. Fuel pressure held just fine with the engine off and simply priming the system with ignition-on. Plugged in o2 sensors and started car. Passenger bank kept running rich - 0.8V. Swapped o2 sensors and it stayed rich on the passenger side. Whenever the idle would stumble, the rich o2 sensor would show the AFR dip down a little and return, but still remained around 0.8V.
I put the part store wires back on the passenger side and I started to get switching from the o2 sensor. Swapped rotor and cap, but saw no difference.
I really don't want these wires, so they will be going back, but I really need to get some decent wires on there.
Idle is still rough with closed-loop. I will have to wait until this weekend when I swap my midpipe to get rid of the cat rattle - it can be difficult to hear anything. I have no idea how smooth the engine should run with the HO cam. It has been so long since the SO cam was in there, I don't even remember how that thing idled. I assume we can't hope for smoothness like any newer v8.
How rough is it running? Do you fell the engine shaking sitting in the car? My Mark VII has a stock HO cam. I can visibly see the engine shake a little with the hood up (ALL engines do) but I can't feel it running sitting in the driver's seat. My Thunderbird has a slightly larger than stock HO cam (a little more duration intake and exhaust plus a bunch more lift) and I can see it shake at idle but I don't feel it sitting in the driver's seat. But no a Windsor 5.0 is not going to be as smooth as a DOHC Coyote 5.0. Remember it's just an engine designed in the early 1960's with EFI added on later ;).
What motor mounts do you have? I have Chuck's mounts with what I believe was the medium-stiffness isolators. I've been able to feel the motor for as long as I can remember. Even when the motor if running "smooth" at 1200rpms on cold start, I can still feel it.
The old SO firing also order could have made the thing idle differently. I'd need to sit in a stock Mustang or Thunderbird to have any idea what is normal.
Stock 86-88 Thunderbird/Cougar 5.0 mounts with solid rubber isolators from NAPA. Been running it that way for 7 years.
I assume you mean stock replacement, but solid rubber? Stock mounts to me means hydraulic.
I'll spend a lot of time with the car this weekend. I will play with my new microphone, but I should be able to get a good sample from the exhaust noise. It's nice to have a mic that works on my phone - I had to add 1.1Kohm of resistors before the thing would be recognized by Android. Maybe take a video, and you guys can tell me if the shake is normal. Either way, I want to try swapping the exhaust midpipe, and if it bolts up fine, take the down-pipes to a shop to have an additional o2 bung welded onto each pipe so I can wideband either side. I may also need new narrowband sensors - one seems to be more limited in voltage range.
Will also install my new IAC that I've had sitting around for years. I am pretty sure I've had IAC-related issues in the past as well.
Hopefully I can get every little detail sorted out, including new MAF housing/sensor, and new tunes for the EEC and transmission. Maybe also replace every ground wire with some higher quality connections, and larger wire.
Now where did I put my old wideband gauge and DataQ unit...
I put stock mounts back in 9 years ago. My Chucky mounts were running late in transit. I received them about a week after I got everything back together. I figured I'd put the in when I snapped one of the stock mounts....... STILL WAITING......
You KNOW if I didn't have the Chucky mounts laying around the stockers would have let go within a month.....
THIS.
I replaced my grounds with one inch thick straps. Love them. That and I removed a few connectors in the charging system and hard wired the connections together. This alleviated a few issues that I had for a while.....
I completely forgot about using my thermal imaging camera to see the temperature differences between cylinders. That may help me figure out what's going on also. Even poor electrical connections will show heat buildup.
What do you think is the equivalent wire-gauge of your straps? Insulated wire appears generally more affordable due to greater supply. I figure 4awg soldered into tinned copper terminals should be plenty for any grounds. I may want to look for some of the terminals that typically come on ground straps though - seems they'd work better long-term.
Keep the wire completely sealed away from the elements by using sufficient solder, and mechanically strengthened by both the solder and heatshink, it should last nearly forever.
Edit:
Supposedly 1" of a standard ground strap is around 3awg wire in cross sectional area. No idea on thickness of the straps, but this seems to be a good, general equivalence. Not insanely large like the 1/0 stuff I have in my car right now, but I will be downsizing everything to 4awg eventually. 4awg ground wires are perfect.
Yep stock replacement solid rubber mounts. Used these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ani-2661sr/overview/year/1987/make/ford/model/thunderbird
I still wouldn't swap them out - Chuck's mounts provide so much more clearance!
This weekend I'm also going to look for some plastic tubes - I want to try an injector cycle test and see how consistent my injectors are. I can also test my old 24lbers. The more information one has, the better they can make educated decisions!
Edit:
Hobby stores have glass test tubes. I am going to pick some up. I will also test my old 24lb injectors to see if a single one was running me lean.
I'll grab a video clip tomorrow to show that the motor doesn't "move", but it vibrates the chassis.
The headers appeared to be heating up evenly, up until the max temperature of the thermal imaging camera. I would need to use an IR thermometer to test further:
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps1.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps2.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps3.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps4.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps5.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps6.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps7.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/ThermalImaging/temps8.jpg)
No issues seen with the heatup cycle. Exhaust and cats warm up fine also.
I have some test tubes now. A little tape and they should work for testing injector flow at crank.
I tried to catch the slight-miss heard from the exhaust, but it is quite difficult to hear through the mic. Either way, this video shows the hood vibrating, the cause of rattling in the video (broken cat), some mediocre-recorded exhaust noise, rough idle/unstable rpms and a weird gauge issue when returning to idle from 4k rpms. The datalogging does not show the rpm's hanging or bouncing back up, and I don't think I can hear it in the audio either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqpOLwh36Tc
Well from the video your idle sounds just like my Mark VII. I don't hear a missing/popping sound. The hood vibration seems normal. You may have more vibration transmitted to the chassis because of the poly motor mounts vs rubber.
At idle does the tack twitch that much/be felt when it happens? Just curious. It's smooth, then rough, then smooth, and so on. Pretty sure the computer should be able to keep it running smooth if ignition is consistent. The EEC commanding ~15 degrees of timing at idle is where it starts to suffer - not sure if it's the timing or the fact that the lower rpm will show inconsistencies more.
Going to the store in a few to get some o2 bungs wended in to my new exhaust pipes. I had to grind the shifter cable bracket's lower mounting bolt off to get the exhaust to not hit. Second aftermarket midpipe that hit there, so I assume they all will. Fits well beside that little issue.
Turns out I had longer o2 sensor wires on there before - will be returning my new short ones. The longer ones are SO much easier to connect/remove without dropping the transmission down.
I don't notice the tach twitching at idle on either the Thunderbird or Mark VII. If I rev either car at idle and let off the gas they fall down to just a couple rpm above normal idle speed and then a second later back to idle. I think the computer keeps the IAC open to keep the car from stalling. I have put a timing light on the Thunderbird with the SPOUT connector in and a tach/dwell meter hooked up. At idle the timing will bounce around about 2* and the engine speed will go up and down about 20rpm or so. I don't notice it on the factory tach. It's a normal EEC function to keep a steady idle.
Spent way too long driving around to stores today - first got new o2 sensors, then realized I had the long-wire ones before, so returned and purchased long-wire sensors from other stores. Every store only had one in stock, and stores that I purchased short-wire sensors from didn't have the long. I went to parts stores 6-times, AND went to a shop to weld my wideband bungs into my new midpipe section. Tomorrow I will test injector flow, bolt up the new midpipe, find my DataQ, and start datalogging my wideband sensor. I will also add additional grounds tomorrow - connect the heads together, and ground them to the frame.
Tomorrow may have some dry patches so I should be able to get some good datalogs of WOT to see where I'm at.
Replacement x-pipe took FOREVER to bolt on. I ended up grinding the hanger mount a bit to shift it to one side, but it still was close for clearance with the transmission pan.
I'll have to verify after the exhaust cools down, but I think my passenger side is the bank giving me a weird idle. Whenever the engine stumbles, the new o2 sensor on that side goes a little more lean. The new sensors respond so much quicker than the old - they start to climb in voltage in about 5-seconds from cold start. Old ones took forever to increase.
Any idea as to why?
I'll be attempting to test the injectors soon. Engine is a bit hot at the moment. I want to compare their flow. I also haven't added the new ground wires yet. Getting a good ground back to the coil should give me more consistent spark. My new wires won't be in until (hopefully) Friday, so I can test my ignition system more next weekend.
If I have good compression on every cylinder, ignition wires, rotor, cap, and timing, the engine should run the same on both banks - one side shouldn't misfire.
After injectors, I'll be able to swap my wideband from either side now. I will use an old o2 sensors to block off the bung on the side I'm not using a wideband sensor in. I figure the wideband will have a better chance of showing exactly where I'm at in terms of AFR - with the narrowband, I just know I'm "still rich", but not by how much my AFR changed with a misfire.
So I got some injector testing done. I highly suggest sending them out to be tested! This was a bit of a pain.
Injector on cylinder #2 was an overachiever - below I have a picture of the markings of where the fuel level was when I stopped the test. I swapped injectors from #2 and #6, but the passenger side is still giving me problems. On the first cold start, it didn't seem too bad, and once in closed loop, I can't read the sensors for any hints. Restarting the vehicle though, before going into closed loop, I saw a lot of roughness, and each time the engine would stumble, the passenger side o2 sensor showed a quick drop in AFR. I'm guessing that a cylinder is missing, and it's igniting in the exhaust. That or the injectors aren't at fault, but cylinder 2 is being told to put out too much fuel for some reason.
I will do more testing later on this week. Since I had the same roughness on the 24lb injectors, and moving the richer injector to the other bank didn't solve anything, I'm going with the idea that fuel should be working fine, and consistent enough. I may purchased another set of injectors and immediately have them flow tested, just to see about getting a better matched set. Slightly richer generally isn't so bad though.
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/Injectors/injectortesting1.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/Injectors/injectortesting2.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/Injectors/injectortesting3.jpg)
(http://www.masejoer.com/Images/Thunderbird/Engine/Injectors/injectortesting4.jpg)
I just realized I had test tubes for 6 and 7 in the wrong spots in the last shot! Doesn't matter - they were close in flow.
Am interesting thing I found - my Accufab throttle body is not perfectly flat where the IAC attaches. A new gasket can't seal it well enough. http://www.americanmuscle.com/accufab-throttle-body-70mm.html
I will remove and sand it flat later, but for now, a thin coat of rtv will seal it up.
New wires are being delivered Thursday. I also have some R&M wire loom to keep the ignition wires vertically separated to the side of the valve cover.
I WILL get this thing running perfectly. I drive it for many thousands of miles as a daily driver without it being smooth/slight miss. I don't see why I can't get idle smoothed out with some more tweaking.
I also have some contact-cleaner/deoxit and conductive grease coming to go along with my dielectric grease. Get all of those electrical connections cleaned up! I will be using the conductive grease for ground mounting points.
Spending a lot of money on this testing. I pulled the intake and was going to reinstall my 24lb injectors to compare behavior. I figured I'd do a compression check while the intake is off. First gauge is reading 120psi on all cylinders. Second gauge is reading 150psi on all cylinders. Spraying oil in the spark plug holes doesn't change anything. 50-miles ago when the heads were first installed, I read closer to 190psi on all cylinders. My battery is well charged for the cranking. Engine was warmed up beforehand, but had probably cooled a bit by the time I got the intake off. Maybe I just need to do the test immediately after shutting the engine off. I don't remember what I did last year - if the engine was cold or not. Both gauges showed much better consistency this time though.
Not sure what's going on. I purchased an OTC compression gauge from Amazon to be here this week. We'll see what it says.
After the car settles down to a 700rpm idle in park, it's pulling around 15 inches of vacuum. I don't think I've ever tested vacuum with these heads previously.
Revving the motor up to about 1000rpms from the throttle body gets the vacuum up to 18-19inHg. Disconnecting the IAC, vacuum drops to about 10 inches at 550-600rpms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrJ8i4j5K0I
An audio clip of a couple things. The car right now has nothing connected up to the mid-pipe. With the exhaust like it is, there is a repetitive noise coming out that I'm not sure what to make of. Also at 1:45 you can hear the idle starting to miss badly. I hear and feel that issue quite often.
http://www.masejoer.com/20141105_192143.mp3
That sounds about right. My Thunderbird pulls around 16.5 inches of vacuum at 700rpm hot idle in park. Don't forget I'm at a lower elevation than you which effects vacuum readings. My Mark VII pulls 18.5 inches of vacuum at 700rpm hot idle. Free flowing heads/intake will drop your vacuum readings from the stock 18-19 inch range as less resistance = less vacuum.
My new Firecore wires came with a missing boot on the coil wire...
Anyway, going to spend some time this weekend starting over from a blank tune, and make notes on everything I change. May be able to simply tune-out my idle. I'll need to re-calculate/estimate my throttle body cross section, and volume of intake. Other than pulling the car's old tune and running with it last week, I have no clue what I modified years ago.
I will be videotaping some noid light and spark tests for my review - see if I can find anything inconsistent. I'm also going to go over my upper intake's mating surface to take care of a couple minor marks.
I'm about 250ft above sea level.
Have a MSD 31329 wireset coming into Autozone tomorrow. $65 for the set is a pretty good price!
Aaaaand, I have one corner of the passenger side valve cover that isn't sealing up well. I have some reusable gaskets on there that have very little age/miles - I think installed last year when I did the heads.
We'll see how that goes tomorrow - that one can be a pretty bad vacuum leak as the filler-neck to TB is on the same side. This last engine startup, after a few minutes, something started clanking around for a minute (between 3 engine-restarts), and now I have a rattle in the new exhaust. I'm wondering if I lost a pintle cap with all the injector pulling I've been doing. I'm not missing any washers or anything, so I don't see how it could be anything more dangerous like that
To top it off, the spark plug from cylinder #4 has two cracks in its porcelain.
New compression gauge arrived - shows 147-153psi across all cylinders with a cold engine. I apparently have one dead gauge on-hand, and now two good ones...
Lots to do tomorrow! I seem to be idling at 16 inches of vacuum now at 700rpms. After working out all the remaining little kinks, we'll see how it idles, then see if adjusting timing at idle will help at all.
Well you're actually closer to sea level than I am :hick:. 16" of vacuum is good. Like I said I've got 16.5" at 70rpm hot idle. That's not a bad price for the MSD wires. I only paid $5 less for them from a local speed shop. Like I said they are pretty decent wires. One thing to remember is that the plug boot ends are multi angle, which means you can bent them up to a 45* angle for header clearance. You don't have to leave them straight.
As far as a plastic pintle cap making it to the exhaust I doubt it. I dropped a cracked one into an intake runner when I was swapping from 19lb to 24lb injectors. The thing got sucked right into the combustion chamber and vaporized. No way is that piece of plastic getting out through the exhaust valve into the header/exhaust pipe intact ;).
We'll see what it is/was. The intake runners were taped off, and the noise didn't appear for a couple minutes. I couldn't hear it when spinning the motor from the starter relay. I will hopefully have the plugs/injectors/exhaust off one last time today, and will inspect everything. I don't understand what the noise could have been.
I am getting slightly concerned and confused. My compression readings don't go up at all with a hot engine. I have no idea why compression is down 30-40psi this year. I also have cylinder #8 barely reaching 140psi after 5 cranks today. Throwing oil into the cylinder does nothing.
I am running more rich today. Forgot that I turned off closed-loop some days back - all plugs came out showing rich, but some darker than others.
Well - MSD ignition wires ALSO arc. I don't think anyone can say they don't. Even going straight from coil to a spark tester, they arc when close to any metal. Anyone who says otherwise has poor eyesight/tools. They also don't appear to cross a .45" gap in the spark tester any better than the FMS wires, using a new Accel coil.
So now I have a minor leak at my EGR valve. Motorcraft part with maybe 5k miles on it. Valve cover leak was due to one of the metal sleeves from some other previous gasket being stuck to it - didn't see it! I also can't resolve a minor leak at the upper to lower intake in a spot - even rtv cured for many hours didn't stop the leak. Not sure what's going on there.
Idle vacuum is now 17 inches at 670rpms. I still have a slight miss, but I think it is getting less. Passenger side is about 2.5% richer than driver side, which matched with my findings when I had closed-loop disabled for awhile. The passenger side plugs were blacker than the driver side.
I also have an issue with my ACT sensor - I need a new plug. Mine has a broken clip, and I found that my car would randomly, instantly die. When this happened, the car would show -40 degrees. Other times, it would show the same temperature as the ECT sensor. Pushing it back onto the sensor all the way made the engine run again.
Adjusted my tune. KAMFR values are now 0.988 and 1.012 - 1.2% richening on driver side and 1.2% leaning-out on the passenger side. I still see some weird thing going on with the timing - I will see 16-20 degrees of timing at idle, but occasionally I will see 27-30 degrees for a split second. Not sure what to make of that. Isn't "smooth", but it's getting pretty consistent.
Throttle tip-in is pretty bad - floor it and the AFR's skyrocket, and I get a delay before the motor revs. I will have to mess with the tune a bit to fix that - I don't remember what to change for throttle body cross-area and intake volume.
take the compression gauge apart, you will see how it works,, then recalibrate it.
for the record,, room temperature effects the "arched" piece of copper/brass inside so pay attention to that when testing.
adding this amazing thread with your technical observations ,, your always like a rocket scientist when you jump on a problem. you leave no stone unturned.
Happened with my old 24lbers also. The issue is that the computer isn't properly antiting the flow increase for a split second. I saw some threads about it over on the eectuning forum, but then had to deal with the ACT sensor signal disappearing. Engine was idling, then suddenly died for no reason like I had pulled spark. Computer thinking it went from 100+ degrees air-charge temp to -40 degrees made the computer jump to the end of its tables, doing weird things to ALL the parameters. I can show the functions and tables that are all affected by this sensor.
Anyway, waiting to hear back about some welding work to get my lers/tails hooked back up. Maybe take a break - last night I dreamt that I was working on the car, and 3 of my plugs had missing electrodes. For the record, all my spark plugs are intact without any damage/all still gapped correctly, as were my injectors. No missing parts. My biggest concern is the lower compression/not changing with a hot motor, and cylinder #8 now showing 7% lower than the other cylinders. 140 vs 150psi on the rest, while I got around 187psi average not too long ago with this motor. All rockers felt good - no lash, but not loose, and no collapsed lifters. No damage to the rockers of valve covers - nothing hitting, nothing broken. Of course, no codes after fixing the ACT sensor - it was storing code 54. The EEC is also happy with the cylinder balance test, just like it was before with all the leaks.
New fuel filter fixed some AFR issues. I was getting bad breakup over 3500rpms/wot and found it going quite lean at around 15:1 AFR. New filter I am now at 12:1 AFR WOT, but still getting breakup. The car falls on its face and misfires, barely making it to higher rpms. I'm looking at the distributor next - everything else has been replaced! Revs fine to 6k in park/neutral.
I'm down to needing to replace my EGR valve for vacuum leak fixes. The EGR and valve cover's oil fill cap have some leakage. No other leaks around, other than pressure coming out of the cap I have on the throttle body. With 30psi going into the intake, it currently holds about 10psi before the leaks overtake the additional pressure.
Sucks to see all the problems, but I really enjoy reading your troubleshooting process! The extended exposure engine bay pictures are awesome!
Glad someone is entertained by this mess! :crazy:
I tried my small stock '89 Mustang MAF with no change (but pegged it quickly). I put my 75mm back in and my old 24lb injectors that I ran for years. I richened up the AFR a bit to look more into the 4k breakup. I had NO clue what to make of this short WOT burst, which was the worst one yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX2yoyGE4NA&feature=youtu.be
Basically, tip-in was lean, which is fine for now. It quickly richens up but the car can't climb past 4k rpms. For some reason, right before I let off the throttle, I see it lean out. It looks like it was the EEC compensating for the MAF voltage dropping a few frames beforehand in the datalog. The choppy motor was likely making the air pulse around the MAF sensor, making the sensor's voltage swing all over the place.
From these datalogs, I thought the fuel injectors and pump should be fine. I don't know what the passenger bank is doing yet - I would need to pull and re-run my wideband wiring.
Here is where I fix the breakup
So breakup is likely what - fuel starvation, lack of spark, floating valves, or really bad timing. While attempting to fix my slight idle miss, I've swapped out many parts. Today and yesterday I had a couple times when there was a really bad smell that I couldn't smell after pulling over and popping the hood, or smelling the exhaust. I figured I'd try my old parts store coil that I ran for years. BREAKUP IS GONE. Coil was probably killing itself internally/creating a burning smell.
Now I'm seeing WAY too rich of AFR (under 11:1), so I need to revert those earlier changes. Floor the pedal, traction disappears and it seems to struggle gaining traction as the speed increases. Around 5k I see some weird behaviors, but that is my current 4r70w shift point - I will need to fix that. I tried setting the shifter to 1st, but once I got to 5000-5500k, I let off the pedal and the tach bounced around with a 1500rpm swing - up and down, up and down. I have no clue what to make of that, but speed and motor rpms were smooth, other than the jolt of the motor powering down. Put it into OD again and took it around once more - 5k, it shifted to 2nd, and then I let off to remain under 50mph.
Randomly swapping parts is a TERRIBLE idea for anyone. Brand new Accel coil that seems to get rave reviews on forums and Amazon. I got a junk one! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00062YUY4
Traction is a problem again. I can't hear the exhaust - the only noise I hear when getting on it is motor roaring through the firewall.
I had a brand new MSD TFI coil literally separate on me about two miles to an exit on I-45 between Dallas and Houston a few years back. I thought I was out of fuel as I had just installed a new fuel pump and maybe the fuel gauge was off. Walked two miles to the exit (no one in Texas will pick up hitch hikers on I-45 as the Huntsville prison where they put inmates to death is on that route). Got my gas and a ride back to the car and no luck. Popped the hood and started looking around and wiggled the coil wire only to see oil come out of it. Pulled up on the coil wire attached to the coil and it just came apart. A very nice Texas Highway Patrol trooper gave me a ride back into town to a Napa and I got a coil and two zip ties. He drove me back out to the car and in a couple of minutes I was on my way. I ordered that coil off of eBay so I wonder to this day if it was a knock off. I ordered a new one from Summit Racing and it has been in the car ever since. I still have the Napa brand coil in my garage for testing purposes.
Glad to see you are making progress on the motor. Hopefully once you have it sorted out you can enjoy the new 4R70W trans and pick the shift points up to about 6K.
Darren
Yeah, I figure I just got a bad coil. Either way, my old one tested fine on output as it was able to jump a 0.4" gap on my spark tester. I'll keep it in there for now.
I plan on doing some tuning with 24lb injectors tonight, and correct my transmission's tune (it still thinks I have 3.08 gears) with a bump up to 5600rpm shift points. It needs time to do the 1-2 shift - years back it took 300-400rpms to complete the shift with a 3.55 final drive ratio. I will have to review datalogs to see where my shift finishes now with the lighter converter, jmod, and where power begins to fall. I may need to put the 30lb injectors back in to fine the engine's real power wall.
Still have no clue what to do about my slight miss, which has always been there. I do still need to replace the EGR valve, but I'm going to wait a couple weeks for that. I will get back to idle troubleshooting at that time. For now, make sure the motor is healthy up top!
Has anyone figured out by now that the stock ford stuff is better than any aftermarket junk. We did testing on LS coils some time back and a change over to MSD coils netted a loss of 18 HP. Believe it or not the stock stuff is always better. Many fords i work on have original ignition parts well over 150K and working flawlessly. It actually boggles my imagination that people spend good money for this JUNK. Just me could be wrong. But my cylinder scope tells the story as an independent JUDGE!!!
Yep - everyone seems to love the stock Motorcraft unit. All you can do now days is rebuild one - no new old stock complete distributors to be found. PIP and TFI are available new though.
I know that is why i saved a bunch of them. Only other way is stand alone and that works. Have a good day guys'
Just for fun I swapped between a stock 134K mile 27 year old factory Motorcraft coil and a MSD coil last time I was at the track. The car ran identical times with either coil.
I had a similar issue on my first 86 when i was 16 that i forgot all about until you fixed yours. Car drove fine but had a bad miss about 2500rpm's. I just kept it below 2500 until one day my battery died while i was driving. Got a jump at 3 am in the morning. My stock coil was rusted out and leaking black goop. It was shooting spark off of the sides of the coil to the body and wiring. It blew my fuseable links which is why my battery died while driving that night.afterwards the car ran very well and consistently would hit 30mpg freeway.
IMO adding an MSD ignition and coil (or any other aftermarket brand) to a stock Fox car is a waste of money unless you need a rev limiter. These motors don't have high enough compression and wind up RPM wise high enough to take advantage of anything they offer. You start adding compression, rpm, and better air flow then you can take advantage of the higher voltage spark and longer spark time in the combustion chamber. If you are running nitrous or boost then the stock ignition on these older cars should be upgraded as you are basically adding compression and better air flow.
Darren
I run a stock setup and rev the hell out of my car and have tuns of BOOST with no issues whatsoever. All this hype over these designer ignition systems ar Bull, shiznit in my view. And if you run a stand alone and LS truck coils case closed on that setup. nothing beats it. As far as coil output the stock Ford closed box coil can deliver well over 50K and i have a cylinder scope to prove it can. Nothing wrong with a stock system.
50,000volts?
I thought the oem stock was around 18 or 19k?
I ran across this thread that had some good info;
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=25675
Darren