Hi! On my '87 we converted the car to mass air with a HO engine and 89 mustang A9P about 9 years ago. When you do the swap, what happens with the VSS or speed sensor wiring? According to the mass air wiring the VSS is used by PIN 3 and 6 on the 60 PIN EEC connector. Do you have to run the wiring from the sensor to the EEC? It seems like it should even though the speedo works. I know it's needed for the EEC to send a signal to the IAC when slow cruising or coming to a stop. What do you guys think? On my wiring there is nothing to PIN 3 or 6.
This is what I used when converting mine.
http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/massair.html
When I did mine the Ford Racing kit was still available and that's what I used. I did nothing with regard to the VSS. On your 87 the stock setup pin #3 should have a dark green wire with white stripe. Pin #6 should have an orange and yellow wire. Mine were all there so zero issue for me.
(http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0900c152/80/06/bb/cb/large/0900c1528006bbcb.gif)
Ok, I think I'm going to clarify why I was asking this; plus I've read a bit more. I just put a new 347 engine in the car about two months ago and just started driving it this week. The engine is significantly stronger then the previous 5.0 with 1.94 aeroheads and B-cam.
The new engine has pro-comp 2.02s, 10.88 CR and a Comp xe282HR cam. Runs really good except at slow speeds and coming to a stop, the car sometimes will just stall out. So, I was reading on stangnet the other day and read where others have had the same problem with mass air converted cars that were modified. I haven't experienced this until the new engine and thought I would check this out and at the time of converting to mass air I had no idea.
3 wires that are usually left out on the conversion is PIN 19 to the fuel pump relay for voltage monitoring, and PIN 3 and 6 for the VSS. The wire for the pump relay isn't so important (will give a code though) but I believe the VSS is! So, I started checking and was surprised not to find the wires in the 60 pin connector, I thought at least they would have to be repinned. In the Haynes manual under '86-'88 engine wiring diagram it shows PIN 3 and 6 being used for this but it's not on my car. While I had the cluster out I looked under the dash and found the two wires from the VSS (dark green with white and orange and yellow) going to a control box above the brake pedal. Tomorrow I'm going to splice into these wires and run then to the EEC and hopefully that will be the case of this slow speed/stop stall. I'll post some pics.
Ha! Ok at least I'm on the same page with you guys!! Thanks for the help!!
DId your car come originally equipped with cruise or no?
Yes it did.
It should be all hooked up then.....
True! I'll post some pics tomorrow of how some of this wired.
Alright, I went to the junkyard yesterday and was able to get the EEC pins out of a harness from a '91 Mustang to install in the EEC connector. I wanted the correct factory wire colors. Should be able to get that wrapped up this afternoon or tomorrow.
Here is a pic of the 60 pin connector, notice there are no wires in location 3 and 6. The VSS wires do run to a control module under the dash on the drivers side above the brake pedal, must be because of the digital cluster; i'll spice into those.
The pic on the left..... The black wire w/orange stripe.....should't that be location #41? I'm trying to figure out the orientation of what you have there, but many things don't seem to match up. I can make out pin #30 (brown wire w/white stripe right next to the main hold down bolt).
EDIT* Ah OK I see the orientation now. Threw me for a loop. The pic goes right to left....
I keep coming back to a sentence from your first post:
This would be true for a stock EEC-IV speed density setup as well (Same IAC valve). Is it getting the signal by some other means then? Seems like yours left the factory this way so.....
I wonder if the dash cluster has its own processor / circuitry necessary to turn the VSS signal into speedometer movement. Might be a really simple execution electrically. I would definitely expect the full digi-dash to have its own CPU.
My black cougar DOES idle high until the moment I come to a stop. Now, I wouldn't want to intentionally cause a stalling like described....but dammit I want to DISconnect this feature on my car...I hate high idling in neutral as I'm coasting...it hides the cam chop :rollin:. Especially with my cutouts open. When it settles down to 800 RPM or so, it's the perfect shake rattle 'n' roll.
I found the following:
http://www.auto-diagnostics.info/pdf/ford_eectec10.pdf
Also: Looking at a wiring diagram for a 1986 Mustang shows NOTHING with regards to pin 3 & 6. They are not listed.....
(http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang-86-Mustang-ECC-EFI.gif)
Remember the average MAF conversion is written with a speed density type Mustang in mind.
I do wonder how the IAC would get a signal in in a Speed Density car without these wires......
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33217
I wonder if Speed Density relies solely on TPS input for the deceleration strategy in the ECU....
Well...... Seeing as I did my conversion many moons ago I did the only sensible thing.
I pulled back the kick panel on the passenger side, pulled the harness from my ECU and took a look...... :hick:
Guess what I don't have?
BTW -- Full digi dash here as well.
The EVTM would be much more correct (the diagrams I posted are basic for most configurations). Guess I'll study mine to see if in fact the box under the dash somehow ties into the ECU harness....
You know what really me off? WRT to moving pin 51 to 38 and 11 to 32 for emissions as well as this? Ford Racing NEVER mentioned it in their directions that came with the Mass Air Conversion kit. I still have the instructions. I remember printing out the repin info from the Coolcats website for reference. The VSS info I knew of, but I figured I was in the clear since this car came with cruise and a digi dash. I've never really had an unsolvable stalling issue and my car was unmolested wiring wise when I purchased it.
*Edit*
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=29819.0
I've NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER logged a code 29 in my car...... :confused:
Ha! I have a friend who had a pretty radical 347 in his '92 LX. He had #30 injectors and matching MAF and the car ran really good! At a stop though the idle would slightly hunt not much but it wouldn't go under 1k, at 800 rpm the cam sounded really good. We found that if you unplugged the MAF the idle would stay steady at around 800, plug it back in and it would speed up. Well, he too wanted that slow cammed sound at cruises and at the fast food drive through. What he ended up doing was wiring in switch that cut power to the MAF. So, come to a stop and cut the power, the car would idle steady and good, light turn green he'd flip the MAF back on for driving!:giggle: Of course the check engine light would pop on.
That's crazy! I did have the code 29 a couple times after driving, but it wouldn't pull it always. Here is a diagram I have used:
I had installed a switch in my vss while I was still on HO SD, I had a Mark VII EEC that had a speed limiter. I'd flip the switch off when it was time to run.
I'm also happy to report that the wiring install improved the car significantly!!!
I spliced in the wires from that module and to the EEC. Before you sometimes could hardly get around the block without it dying 5 or 6 times, plus you would have to use both feet when coming to a stop, one foot on the brake and the other on the gas when slowing down. I drove the car around for about 30 minutes through town trying to get it to die...it did...but only three times but never when coming to a stop. It was when going about 25 mph or so and I would hit the gas and then let off quickly. I tried that a couple dozen times and only the three times it died and no more "two footing" it to a stop!! I'm happy!
Thanks for the responses!! I appreciate it!
I've never had any issues like that. Cranky idle on startup in cold weather yes, but after about a minute or so it would go away. I always attributed it to the camshaft. I replaced my IAC and did a base idle reset a few months ago and it's been pretty much flawless. It does get a wee bit cranky when humid. The only time I've ever had the car stall while braking was during an emergency stop situation. near dented the floor board I hammered the brakes so hard. I've never had an issue in drive or had to 2 foot it like you did.
I actually ran out to the car and hooked up the scanner. No code 29......
I think I'm gonna hook up the wires anyhow. While I'm at it maybe I'll finally run the one for the fuel pump secondary circuit.
Mine's NEVER done that. How are the baffles in your gas tank? You got any codes still?
What ECU do you run? I'm running a C3W1 that came with the Ford Racing Mass Air Conversion kit. Maybe that one doesn't use VSS? weird.....
My idle is 830 in park 680 in drive right now.....
BTW - I have a full engine harness from an 87 Cougar 5.0 in a box in my garage that came from a car that was totaled out. It's been boxed up for years and in amazing condition. I don't know if it came from a full digi dash or not, but pins #3 and # 6 are empty on that too.
To add to the craziness:
My 88 Thunderbird had the vss wires in pins 3&6 from the factory. When I did the MAF swap I didn't have to run the wires. The odd thing is that all the wiring colors in my car match the 87 harness. My car was built in September of 87. From what I can tell only the 88 cars had the vss wiring in pins 3&6 from the factory.
Dave is in Texas. I wanna get a look at his when he gets back.... 87. buttstuffog dash.
The only code I'm pulling now is 95 for the secondary fuel circuit. The ECU is a A9P from an '89GT. The baffles seemed good, I installed a Walbro 400LPH pump and fuel filter probably 3 weeks ago, hopefully everything is good there and must say an easier pump to install then a same year Mustang!!
So, your instructions say nothing for the VSS?? I know the Mustang had the same issue on the SD cars with those PINS and others that you mentioned.
The way the car runs overall is very good, no surging, weird noises, sputtering, hesitation or anything and pulls really hard; It was just that slow cruise and stop. I have my idle at about 900-950ish in park. I could go a bit lower but the cam doesn't seem to like that when coming to a stop, I've read that when the cam gets quite big the IAC has a hard time trying to compensate for it. I've read you can mod the IAC to help with that elsewhere.
Interesting you don't have those PINS either, I was starting to think I had a flukey car or something. What mods do you have on your car what cam do you have?
Trick flow heads and intake, Ed Curtis custom cam (230 duration at .050" lift max lift .565), 24 pound injectors set to 48 psi, 255 lph pump, 70 mm tb, 73 mm mad, 3.45s, 2800 stall converter, AOD with Silver Fox valve body. Wot shifts are at 6200. This car is the reason I supercharged my Mustang. Will pull on a new 5.0 Mustang without issue.
I'm assuming you've had the thing tuned? It actually does make use of the extra fuel pressure? (I do have 24's as well)
Just gotta pull the intakes, VC's and front....wouldn't be hard...you keep making me wanna do a cam change LOL. I'd love to get my powerband stretched out that far.
Would be a good easy winter project.
At stock pressure the duty cycle is Pretty close to maxed. At that pressure the increase is enough to where it stays in the parameters of the EEC-IV processor.
I SHOULD pony up to 30 pounders, but she runs good and strong while being tame when I want -- so long as everything is working.
What cam is in the black car?
This is why I'm glad I pasted the CL ad into a Word doc.
He said "Trick Flow Cam" but listed .499/.510 for the max lift numbers.
Punched it into google.....http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51403001 This sounds like the "Stage 1"?
Why the hell does everyone refer to it as the Stage 1 when it seems like the vast majority of vendors and on TF's own site never call it that...? :hick:
Sounds like your cam is similar but with additional lift.
Is there any massive repeating evidence of no PTV clearance with 1.7:1 rockers with that cam and the TW pistons?
I've always been curious why the TW kit comes with 1.6's.
Also...I don't *know* what fuel pump is in there, but it is slightly louder than the one in my '87 Grand Marq and has a very different tone. So someone didn't try to just get away with the stock pump. Though I'd bet the car wouldn't make it past 2500 lol....
I did find a thread where I think TMoss was discussing fuel quantities per hp and yes, to shoot for ~80ish % duty cycle, this top end setup should have 30s. Interesting.
Trick Flow has 3 cams for Sbf motors designed for the TW heads. Yours is a stage 1. I've had both the stage 1 and mine side by side. The new one has a much more aggressive ramp rate and dwell over the nose.
1.7s with the stage 1 and TW heads should clear no problem.
Paul, on your black car are you still running the stock harness? Can you check to see if the wires are in fact not in place at pin #3 and #6? Is your car the full digi dash? Also, what ECU are you running? Lastly, any way you can pull codes and report to us if there is a code 29? It's a continuous memory code, so KOEO should suffice.
I wonder if my car is
A) Haunted
B) Is somehow sending VSS signal to the PCM through other means
C) Has had a glitch in the PCM from day one concerning this.
Since our cars completely pre-date any kind of automotive networking, you must assume that each module to use a particular sensor is both hardwired to it, and configured to interpret it independently.
In my particular instance a module was put in place (the PCM) that should use the sensor (VSS) however is APPARENTLY missing the wiring to do so, yet is giving no indication that it is missing the same. IE a diagnostic reveals NOTHING as in for this particular circuit things are working as they should.
I find this extremely difficult to believe with the information I currently know concerning these systems. I'm either missing something that may be in the EVTM, the updated C3W1 I have does not use VSS signal, OR I have had a latent PCM issue for 9 years.....
Demon - would be more than happy to check these things. I'm feeling like shiznit after a hard day at work...but maybe later I'll feel a little better. I had wanted to do some outside stuff during the light...got out LATE of course, killed that. So as usual the headache will go away an hour before bed and I'll be stir crazy :toilet:
Remind me about it should I fail to do this tonight or tomorrow.
To my knowledge, the wiring harness is stock. It sure looks like a factory unit and seems to have all of the auxiliary ends over at the ignition coil, etc.
Trust me, doesn't have to be done immediately ;)
At your leisure. I'm curious. Gotta dig through the EVTM a bit more myself....
Would an 83 CFI have a VSS? or is it purely cable?
You and your light car :flip:
With 600lbs extra weight mine will pull on 3.7 Mustangs, 3.6 Camaros, and 5.7 Hemi Charger R/Ts and 300C Chryslers. I think I need a 363 or 408 to pull on a new 5.0 Mustang or Camaro SS.
Nice man! Sounds like it should be pretty stout!
It's fun!
After conferring with Joel 5.0 over @ SBFtech.com concerning this and why I do not receive a code 29 he stated the following:
Makes sense I guess. I've had other continuous memory codes over the years though......
I went out to the car about an hour ago.
Here's what I got.
Computer removed, battery hooked up, and ignition OFF: 12.57v @ PIN #1
It gets interesting......
I decided to do a KOEO test with my tiny code scanner with the engine cold. It was sitting for approximately 7 hours.
The results: 54 (expected at ~70 deg. F), 95. The codes repeated as expected. I then received the single tone separator from KOEO codes to CM codes followed by a pause. The scanner blinked 95 twice then stopped meaning I have a code 95 in continuous memory.
If pin #1 was losing power with the ignition off should I not see a code 15 as well?
Well I know code 15 is KAM failure, it's possible that the KAM is good but not able to store anything if it's resetting itself......if that's even the case. I'd doubt it.
Like I said before I did get a VSS code a couple times after driving, but the battery would be disconnected for a few days, get it together, drive and the code wouldn't be there. Curious!
Figured it out!!!!!!
Took the car for a spin. Apparently the trick to pooping the code 29 is to get the car over 40 MPH or so. I got her on the parkway and brought her home. The 29 was there in continuous memory. Guess I'll be installing the VSS wires and fuel pump secondary wires tomorrow!
Even more infuriating was the code 54..... I JUST replaced the ACT for this because I logged a 54 the other day on both KOEO and Continuous Memory (I didn't bother with a KOER -- the ACT sensor was in the car for as long as I had it and had been on 2 different intakes, 2 cam swaps and a bottom end rebuild. I never changed it. I may have been original to the car). Reset everything and ran it afterwards and nothing. Today it's there again in continuous memory, but NOT in KOEO OR KOER.......
My car's a c*nt......
Don't even bother with the fuel pump secondary wire. I've never run it with no ill effects. Do run the VSS wires however.
I just want the stupidest code ever removed from the system. :toilet:
I just live with the code 95. We've become friends over the years.
Ha! I do too!:p
Well I went ahead and ran the wire for the fuel pump relay voltage monitor this afternoon from PIN 19 to the relay wiring (pink with Black stripe). Easy to do with the only irritating thing was having to heat one of the seat back Torx bolts with a torch....I think the bolt became "one" with the car. :rolleyes: Anyway ran the wire under the door sill and carpet, behind the side panel and into the trunk and spliced in. Probably didn't have to go that far back but oh well. Everything checked out and seemed fine, I wanted to run a scan but didn't have the reader with me....tomorrow!
one more.
You did it the correct way. I got nothing accomplished today. Driving rain and 40 degrees. That and I'm waiting for parts the were SUPPOSED to be here today...... Still 1500 miles away. Awesome....
This thread confuses me. I never ran this wire, but never received a fuel pump code. I had I think 2 codes for smog, which I simply fixed by setting the thermactor-present scaler to disabled.
Anyone know why I don't receive this code? 1988 Sport.
Pin #19 on a Mass Air computer is a check for fuel pump voltage. Both Mass Air and Speed Density have a signal to the pump relay from pin #22. The code will show in both KOEO and CM.
(http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif)
(http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif)
i understand what should happen, but I never added such a wire, and have no code. I hate digging down in that kickpanel so I won't be looking at the harness anytime soon.
Just check the relay in the trunk first. If its not jumped there it's more st likely spliced straight from 22....
Seek, are you running Mass Air or Speed Density?