Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: vinnietbird on October 16, 2014, 08:02:33 AM
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 16, 2014, 08:02:33 AM
For the first time in my life, I have stud mount roller rockers. I feel like they are not adjusted right. My method is as follows....
1-To adjust the intake rocker....Just as the exhaust valve starts to open, I set the intake to zero lash, then turn the nut 1/2 turn and lock it down.
2- To adjust the exhaust rocker....After adjusting the intake side, I allow the intake valve to go full open, then, when it's almost closed, zero lash on the exhaust side, 1/2 turn for the nut, lock it down.
Then repeat the whole process until the whole engine is done. I've actually seen three different ways to adjust them. What is the best way?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: 88Merc50 on October 16, 2014, 08:30:39 AM
Hey when i had my stang with adjustable rockers i adjusted them, just like a small block chevy. back off till clatters, tighten till clatter stops, then another 1/4 turn. it ran awesome and never gave me problems. shad.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 16, 2014, 10:50:08 AM
Vin, a good explanation is here: http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=317.0
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 16, 2014, 06:26:06 PM
Sounds like you are doing it correctly. Why are you concerned that you are not?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 16, 2014, 07:36:56 PM
I'm concerned because I get a "pop" every once in a while through the throttle body, I've adjusted the timing like crazy, can't go much over 12 degrees without having it run like total , and at 12 to 14, the plugs look perfect. Upon starting, the car wants to run for a second then die. Restart it....dies...get it running, and it'll die when i come to a stop. Dang. Maybe it's the ignition module or something. Not sure.I did the base idle re-set and even set the TPS at .970 (I have read that anywhere from .750 to .990 are acceptable). New plug wires in great shape. No vacuum leaks. Push rods are what Trick Flow sent. 6.750. I also have a set of 6.700 .
I did the rockers the first time a different way. A video I watched showed this.....
When I did them this way, I will admit I had less chatter from them. Not sure which way to go. The car ran pretty good today, timing at 12. Idle at 900. Open to suggestions.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 16, 2014, 08:56:57 PM
Only other things I can think of that would cause the popping would be a vacuum leak, intake manifold gasket leak, or the cam timing in relation to the crank being off. If the rockers are adjusted correctly and the pushrods the correct length than you may have to look some where else for the problem. You should be able to run more than 12* base timing with your combo.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 16, 2014, 10:36:15 PM
Hey Thunderjet, did you check the video? What do you think about how he adjusted the exhaust rocker?
I'm thinking the same thing about being able to run more timing. I'm working tomorrow then off the weekend. I'll grab some carb cleaner and spray around a bit to see if there's a vacuum leak I've never found. I am going to re-adjust the rockers ONE more time just for piece of mind, and, the extra learning experience of doing them over and over. LOL. I'd LOVE to find an exhaust leak.....even intake related. That's no big deal. It's not fixing the problem that bugs me, it's finding it that does. LOL.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 16, 2014, 10:57:53 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439191
Hey Thunderjet, did you check the video? What do you think about how he adjusted the exhaust rocker?
I'm thinking the same thing about being able to run more timing. I'm working tomorrow then off the weekend. I'll grab some carb cleaner and spray around a bit to see if there's a vacuum leak I've never found. I am going to re-adjust the rockers ONE more time just for piece of mind, and, the extra learning experience of doing them over and over. LOL. I'd LOVE to find an exhaust leak.....even intake related. That's no big deal. It's not fixing the problem that bugs me, it's finding it that does. LOL.
Looks fine to me. I always adjust rockers the same way.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 16, 2014, 11:03:40 PM
Did you see that the exhaust rocker was adjusted differently that the way I stated I did mine?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 17, 2014, 10:20:27 AM
Yep. It should be fine. As long as your cam doesn't have a stupid amount of overlap when the intake valve is starting to open the exhaust valve is shut. Check with the person who made your cam/the cam card to see how much over lap there is. The exhaust valve doesn't care where the intake valve is (just opening, just closing). As long as the valve you are adjusting is completely shut you're fine.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 17, 2014, 10:27:03 AM
Vinnie here is the procedure and i use it all the time
EXHAUST OPEN ADJUST INTAKE INTAKE CLOSED ADJUST EXHAUST
Here is how to memorize it. By the way on our race car i mounted a bump button in the center of the cowel to bump the starter to adjust easily. Sometimes i have 2 buttons permanently mounted for each side one Pass and one on the Drivers
EXHAUST OPEN INTAKE INTAKE CLOSED EXHAUST
Then add an additional 1/4-1/2 turn then lock it up
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jcassity on October 17, 2014, 08:54:38 PM
actually that sums it up ... the pushrod / lifter spends most of its time on the base circle anyway.,, pretty much anywhere the lifter is on the base circle will be good.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 17, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
Thanks guys.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 20, 2014, 07:47:37 AM
I readjusted the rockers yesterday, only had time to drive it around the block. I'll know more on the way to work this morning. It has had an issue of dying right after I start it, then I have to restart it a couple of times before it'll stay running. I wonder if the ignition module could cause that.
I may need to do a base idle reset AGAIN and check the TPS voltage as well. I do know I can't get the timing away from 12 to 13 degrees without bad issues in drivability. I'll update the results from the drive to work once I get home this evening. Maybe it's alright. High hopes.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 21, 2014, 08:21:48 PM
When I drive the car, there seems to be a little ....."surging" while driving. Not sure how to explain it, but I can feel surging/missing/ whatever I can describe it as. Plugs all looked great, plug wires look great. As I stated in the post above, I might need to swap the ignition module. Can't hurt. I'll do one "fix" at a time until I narrow down the issue.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 21, 2014, 11:54:40 PM
Vinnie,
Did you pull the dizzy when you did this work? Wondering if you are a tooth off.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 22, 2014, 07:32:23 AM
I'm pulling the distributor this weekend to install a new module. I will check it. I'm darned sure it's not. Still idles well once I start it twice, ran great down the highway to the car show two weeks ago. BUT, who knows? Anything is possible. I'll get it on TDC and check it out.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 22, 2014, 09:39:51 AM
What RPM is the car idling at once you get it running good (park and in drive)?
When you first start it; is the issue immediate or does it wait till the car kicks down from high idle?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 22, 2014, 04:36:52 PM
I have a 5 speed. The idle is about 850 to 900 when it it stays running (after a couple of starts). Once I start it twice, it pretty much stays running unless I start it, give it gas and take off. I wonder if I need to do a base idle reset again. I'll do one anyway. I had a little bit of popping through the throttle body on the way to work today. Also, for the first 45 seconds to a minute, the car pulls hard and feels right once I get going in the morning. After a minute, I felt the mild surging and then heard the wee bit of popping under acceleration. I need to run codes (KOEF and KOER). Can't do that til Friday evening or the weekend. I am also not sure about the rockers. I set them differently this time, i did them like the video I posted earlier in this thread. Maybe I need to go back to the way Ed Curtis says to do them (the other way I mentioned early on in this thread). Not sure. My thoughts are....Maybe the rocker adjustment, ignition module, base idle reset, reset the voltage on the TPS,.......
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 22, 2014, 05:19:05 PM
Vinnie BUDDY i have been adjusting valves for 50 Years, Once again Exhaust open adjust the intake Intake closed adjust the exhaust . But do it any way you want. Remember you have to adjust them to ZERO LASH then add 1/8 -1/4 turn. Also if you are popping you are lean that is why you are surging. Also remember set you TPS to .60 Volts max. After adjusting you base idle or min idle. But if the car stalls on cold start up something is wrong. Look for a vacuum leak. And either a compression or leak down test. Good luck.
Can't be a tooth off he brought the timing in to 13*BTDC according to his post. HJay Vinnie just for kicks are you sure you are advancing the timing??? Not retarding it. Just a thought!!
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM
Tom, please explain that valve adjusting thing again. In better detail. If you read your last reply, I think you'll see that it's a bit hard to understand.
I adjusted the rockers to zero lash and half a turn. Is half a turn really too much? I could actually tighten the nuts on a lot of them with my hand if I chose. The polylocks were easy to turn.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 22, 2014, 08:19:11 PM
Ok here is how it is done
Start on one side and work backwards to the firewall. Identify the valves exhaust and intake. Then use a starter pistol. It has 2 clamps on it with a button and you hook it to the battery and small post on the solenoid. It is called a remote starter button. Then hit it till the exhaust just starts to open. Starts lifting the valve off the seat. Or feel the push rod and try turning it with your fingers. It should Be difficult. Adjust the INTAKE by loosening it till there is play then tighten it till the play goes away. Then add an additional 1/8 -1/2 turn and lock it up. Now the intake is adjusted. Then hit the button till the exhaust goes through its cycle and starts closing. Rocker starts coming up. Once it is up adjust the intake the same way. Another words
Exhaust just starts opening rocker tip starts pushing the valve down. Then adjust the Intake. When the intake closes rocker coming up and closing the valve adjust the exhaust.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 22, 2014, 08:28:59 PM
This is just a thought but what is your fuel pressure? How old is your pump and how many LPH is it? Have you done a cylinder balance test? Perhaps when you put everything back together a fuel injector got unplugged?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 22, 2014, 08:37:34 PM
If I understand you correctly, I think that's how I described it on the beginning of this thread as how I adjusted them before. I may go back to that. But every time I did it that way, never was "right". If I had the money, I'd just take it to a mechanic.
Fixing things doesn't bother me at all. Diagnosing issues is something I bloody hate. It could be a whole ton of different things going wrong. Rocker adjustment, electronics somewhere, timing, TPS, idle, etc. I have looked for vacuum leaks over and over.
When i started the car after work, it ran pretty good, but the rockers chatter more than I think they should. maybe I'm wrong. I've been trying to line this issue out for weeks. Still no answer.
If it's running lean, maybe I need to install my adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Mine is currently reading about 40 psi with the vacuum hooked up. Plugs look really clean. Maybe I need to bump the pressure up to about 43 psi. I'm open to all advice.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 22, 2014, 08:46:15 PM
Shouldn't need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. I run a stock replacement Motorcraft unit.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 22, 2014, 08:58:01 PM
That video earlier in the thread is dead on. Make sure valve is completely closed (however you'd like to do this - just watch how the valves move, then you'll know that when the valve closes, plus a little more for good measure, the lifter is on the base circle of the cam), tighten until zero lash, tighten about 3/8 a turn further, lock in place. The extra pressure from the 3/8 turn is simply to preload a hydraulic lifter. I believe you normally want 0.020-0.040" preload for most vehicles (1/4 to 1/2 turn with the threads-per-inch on your studs) - shooting for the middle of this range has worked for me, and my valvetrain is very quiet.
Some rocker arms are just noisier than others. My current ones are dead quiet. My previous ones were more than twice as loud. Too loose (no preload on hydraulic lifters, or flopping around on solids), the valve train will be quite noisy and wear quickly. Too tight, the valve may not close all the way when pumped-up with oil - poor compression and ignition will go out the intake or exhaust, burning valves. Poor-running engine without obvious signs of valvetrain misadjustment, likely not related to the rocker arms.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 22, 2014, 09:02:19 PM
Your pressures are OK. Do this vinnie. Bring the engine up on number ONE ignition cycle anotherwords bring number one up with both valves closed. Make sure you are not in overlap. This can be accomplished by seeing if the push rods spin. Then follow the ignition firing order and adjust the rest of the vaklves. Once again bring number one up on ignition cycke both valves closed and adjust it. then go to the next cylinder in the sequence. Do this by turning the crank with a breaker bar and socket. This way you can de sure the valves are closed and properly adjusted. Good luck.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 22, 2014, 09:06:04 PM
Quote
Mine is currently reading about 40 psi with the vacuum hooked up
With a stock regulator? At idle? It shouldn't be. That would be fine WITHOUT vacuum, but that would translate to about 48-50 PSI on mine with the vacuum line pulled which would give a theoretical flow of close to 27 lb/hr injectors.
That almost sounds as if there is a clog somewhere.... I'd run a gauge that you're able to read while driving temporarily to troubleshoot. While driving it keep the vacuum hooked up. At WOT you should see near identical pressure as when it's at idle with the vacuum line disconnected.
Before you do any of that other stuff, I would FIRST readjust the valves like Tom & the rest of us said (which was how you did it to begin with) and then SECOND hook up a vacuum gauge to the car. Take note of the vacuum reading at idle in park and what the needle is doing. Manually open the TB to WOT and watch/take note of what happens as well. http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=3020.0 For reference on what things you may or may not see, click on the scenario buttons in the first post in the following thread: http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=3020.0
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 22, 2014, 11:05:01 PM
I'll re-adjust the rockers this weekend and check the vacuum as well. Gotta borrow my friend's gauge. I'll report the fuel pressure I see while it's running.
I just read that vacuum thread. Sweet. I will have this handy when I check the car's vacuum pressure. I appreciate the guidance.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jcassity on October 23, 2014, 10:01:51 AM
with good vac connections the at idle you make the most vac , about 19lbs. your want to simply watch the needle at idle and observe the "amount" of side to side deflection. Your needle wont be rock steady but it will stay within the boundaries of +/- 1psi while at idle. the needle will jiggle a little.
you can add acceleration during the test as well and you are looking for similar steadiness results yet the needle will drop in vac pres and attempt to recover although not fully. if you add throttle in a way that you can maintain a certain rpm, the needle will behave similar in a steady way. your looking for a somewhat steady behavior in the needle even when you add throttle. Wide wiggles or deflection of the needle or behavior that shows the needle is swinging around tells you more than you can believe about the top end seats and such.
I got pretty good at this diagnosing a fairly high leak down issue once, I am not by any means a pro, I just had to learn it and do it and understand what the gauge was telling me.
you can gather the vac data from any port that has a cap on it like at the vac tree or on the intake.
if your really good, you can "T" into individual vac lines and attempt to observe the differences seeking a clogged or cracked line. if your cracked or disconnected, no matter where you read vac things will be wrong. if your clogged, eventually you will find the clogged line because readings will be right for various points then wrong one the clogged line.
I think you have omitted the white and black vac lines so you really don't have much to look at,, don't forget the tiny black line that leads out to your storage container inside the passanger fender... that's where vac is stored for use by your cars vac required devices.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 23, 2014, 04:30:13 PM
If you check with a vacuum gauge your engine more than likely won't have a reading of 18-20" vacuum at idle. Because it's got a bigger than stock cam it's going to read lower. Mine reads about 17" of vacuum at a 700rpm hot idle. The stock 5.0 HO in my Mark VII reads about 18" of vacuum at idle. I wouldn't be surprised if your combo made 15" or so of vacuum at idle.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 23, 2014, 04:36:37 PM
Last time I checked I made 18" @ 750 RPM.
Custom cam....
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 23, 2014, 06:22:44 PM
Isn't 16-18 the normal range for stock engines of most vehicles? I'll have to go home and check mine - I don't remember what I get. I especially don't think I've checked with the current heads.
My daily driver pulls over 20 inches at idle. I believe most people with that car and have gauges report 20-22 inches - on the higher side at sea level.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 23, 2014, 07:45:47 PM
my car was idling at 900 to 950 today. It seemed relatively happy with that. The rockers do chatter a bit too much for me. This weekend, I will try to re-adjust the rockers and check the rest of it all. Dang.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 25, 2014, 07:07:07 PM
Tomorrow morning, I'm readjusting the rockers. Like Ed Curtis told me to do. (Like I had them). I do have a question, i have HEARD that the polylocks should be from 1/4 to 1 complete turn then lock them. Is it possible I may need a bit more than half a turn? Maybe 3/4 turn then lock them?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 25, 2014, 11:53:56 PM
NOPE the amount of turns from ZERO lash makes no difference. All you are doing with the extra turn from ZERO ios adding more Pre Load. And this can be anywhere from ZERO to one turn.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 26, 2014, 12:04:08 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439735
Tomorrow morning, I'm readjusting the rockers. Like Ed Curtis told me to do. (Like I had them). I do have a question, i have HEARD that the polylocks should be from 1/4 to 1 complete turn then lock them. Is it possible I may need a bit more than half a turn? Maybe 3/4 turn then lock them?
Not sure what you're asking. The entire nut should spin to zero-lash. Then turn the nut another 1/4-1/2 inch. At that point, hold the nut with a wrench and tighten the set-screw until it pops.
All the 1/4 to 1 turn is doing is adding preload to the lifter. 1-turn would be too much preload - you "could" get the valve stuck open once the lifter fills with oil. I doubt you wish to be burning your valves. Even 3/4 turn I'd be worried about - I'm paranoid about burnt valves. 3/8 a turn has worked fine for me on my TW170 heads.
If you don't like the noise, try different rocker arms. You could also try different hydraulic lifters, but my high-energy ones are no louder or quieter than the stock-like FMS units. All of my valve train noise in the past was due to my Crane Energizer rocker arms - new rocker arms, no more loud noise. The valvetrain now is no louder than anything else the car is doing - likely pretty close to stock stamped units. My previous rocker arms had me worried for years (and spent a lot of money trying to resolve it) as I it was louder than anything else on the vehicle, other than the stereo. Not "sewing-machine" loud - my valvetrain sounded closer to solid lifters. I tried more preload, different lifters, pushrods, and oil. I reused the lifters in my new setup, but it is SO much quieter with the different rocker arms.
During all of the noise issues I had, the valve train geometry looked fine with a sharpie test. It ran for over 10k miles as a daily driver, until the car lost daily-driver duty, I swapped heads, and rocker arms.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 26, 2014, 01:08:17 AM
Thanks guys. The rockers will go to half a turn then. The spark plugs look like the car may be running a bit lean. Gotta figure that out as well. I can drive regular all day with clean exhaust (no smoke....), then if I floor it, smoke.
I'd try a different set of rockers if I can find a set to try at a decent price. My Scorpions are brand new. I still owe Kitz for the remainder of the cost of the heads, so my budget is small.
I pulled the upper intake and valve covers this evening (going to adjust the rockers in the morning), and two of the 16 rockers seemed tighter than the others. Some rockes have a bit of side to side movement, but no up and down movement.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 26, 2014, 01:53:05 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439747
Thanks guys. The rockers will go to half a turn then. The spark plugs look like the car may be running a bit lean. Gotta figure that out as well. I can drive regular all day with clean exhaust (no smoke....), then if I floor it, smoke.
I'd try a different set of rockers if I can find a set to try at a decent price. My Scorpions are brand new. I still owe Kitz for the remainder of the cost of the heads, so my budget is small.
I pulled the upper intake and valve covers this evening (going to adjust the rockers in the morning), and two of the 16 rockers seemed tighter than the others. Some rockes have a bit of side to side movement, but no up and down movement.
The oil will still allow some twisting movement by hand. How long was the car run, and at what rpm's? Certain cylinders will take longer to oil up. When running, some may be like a fountain while others only weep.
As long as they are tightened on the base-circle of the cam, with 1/2 a turn on the stud for preload, and they are locked correctly (you should hear a pop when they get tight enough), the valvetrain should be fine. Obviously, correct pushrod length still matters. I had my heads shaved a lot when I got them, to go from 64cc to 54cc chambers, and went shorter pushrod after measuring with a solid lifter.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 26, 2014, 01:56:45 AM
Thanks. I'll report in tomorrow after I'm finished. I'm also re-installing my Kirban AFP regulator. It was always good on the car and it as pulled when I replaced the fuel rails some time ago. It can't hurt.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 26, 2014, 12:55:06 PM
As far as I can tell, my vacuum looks mostly like #3 on this chart....
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=3020.0
It's reading almost 15 psi on the vacuum gauge.
Fuel pressure on the gauge is showing 30 with the vacuum hooked up.
Idle is about 950 at this time.
Timing is now set to 18 degrees.
Spark plug gap is .050
Taking it for a test drive in just a bit.
Any input from you guys is more than welcome and appreciated.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 26, 2014, 07:18:30 PM
Drove the car, idle was at....gulp....1500 after I reset the timing. Fuel pressure is at 28 with the car running and the vacuum line hooked up, 36 psi without the vacuum line. I think it needs a wee bit more.
I'll recheck the vacuum tomorrow, and will also bump up the fuel pressure as well. TPS is set at .95. I did the base idle reset, idle is a lopey 900 right now at 18 degrees. Plugs look really really clean, no smoke on acceleration. I THINK I MAY be closing in on a resting point.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 26, 2014, 10:45:55 PM
Set the fuel pressure to 39-40psi with the vacuum line disconnected and you should be good to go. I'm betting the low fuel pressure is what caused the popping and hesitation issues. The lower fuel pressure was probably making the car run a bit lean. I have 40psi of fuel pressure on my car with the vacuum line disconnected. I have a stock replacement Motorcraft fuel pressure regulator. The computer ends up tuning around any fuel pressure change above or below the stock 39-40psi setting. As far as roller rocker noise this is what my car sounds like. It's about 1/2 turn after zero lash with a 700rpm hot idle. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ayd1Hc0TePc
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 26, 2014, 11:53:27 PM
YES!!! THAT noise sounds like mine right now. LOL. A LOT worse before I readjusted the rockers today. I was happy with it after the adjusting. Especially after the last week of crazy chatter. LOL.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 27, 2014, 12:49:13 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439783
YES!!! THAT noise sounds like mine right now. LOL. A LOT worse before I readjusted the rockers today. I was happy with it after the adjusting. Especially after the last week of crazy chatter. LOL.
The sound of performance! :hick:
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 27, 2014, 06:14:31 AM
The TPS is set to high. Bring it down to .60 MAX
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 27, 2014, 07:42:24 AM
.60? Really? I've never heard that before. Why so low on the TPS?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 27, 2014, 08:24:45 AM
Anywhere between .6 and 1.1v is within parameters. The setting it to .999999 stuff is . The TPS triggers WOT mode at the base voltage PLUS 2.71v. Every startup the PCM takes note of the TPS voltage with the throttle closed. Every time. Why? Because it WILL change slightly from one startup to the next.
I shoot for .85v myself.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 27, 2014, 11:03:59 AM
I will readjust mine then. As far as the rest, on the way to work the car died about 4 times when coming to a stop. Also died a couple of times right after I started it. Maybe the timing is toom high? I may need to drop it to 16 degrees and go from there. The idle was at 900 yesterday evening when I did the base idle rest, but, I didn't drive it afterward. Gotta say, I'm sick and bloody tired of trying to iron this out.....but I shall keep at it until it is as good as it can get until I can one day afford to have a dyno tune. Funds are back to zero.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 27, 2014, 05:11:14 PM
TPS is fine. These things aren't "adjustable". The EEC will learn where it's at, as long as it is not severely out of range - I believe it will throw a code it that is the case.
As long as it's in range, and its voltage goes up/down smoothly as you move the throttle, the TPS is good and working.
Not sure what Tom is going on about with 0.60V.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 27, 2014, 05:28:29 PM
I have never run mine over 14 degrees of timing with the spout connector out. The EEC will bring more timing in as need from there. 38-40 psig of fuel pressure with the vacuum disconnected is the standard. The gap you have on your plugs is typical for these cars.
If you changed cams did you degree it when you installed it?
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 27, 2014, 06:31:39 PM
Always use the lowest possible setting because THE ECM uses 2,71 plus Base for WOT. Increasing the number allows it to be to HIGH. Been there done it. Trust me So @ .6 + 2.7i you get WOT @ 3.31 If you set for 1,0 you get WOT@ 3.71 Big difference my friend. That is why the Midnighter eats those 302 guys for lunch. have a great evening guys
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 27, 2014, 08:04:23 PM
I dropped the TPS to .90. I was about to raise the fuel pressure to .40, and it was already there. I'm questioning my fuel pump, and a POSSIBLE vacuum leak. Got some carb cleaner to spray as a leak finder. Just not tonight. Car still has a HARD time staying on when I come to a stop or almost a stop. Idle is now 800. Not the 900 I did yesterday. Maybe I need to start the idle reset again this week. Yesterday, at idle, in the driveway (I hadn't driven) it was doing pretty sweet. Now, holy . I will run codes again when I get the time. Working for a living SUCKS.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 27, 2014, 08:48:29 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439820
I dropped the TPS to .90. I was about to raise the fuel pressure to .40, and it was already there. I'm questioning my fuel pump, and a POSSIBLE vacuum leak. Got some carb cleaner to spray as a leak finder. Just not tonight. Car still has a HARD time staying on when I come to a stop or almost a stop. Idle is now 800. Not the 900 I did yesterday. Maybe I need to start the idle reset again this week. Yesterday, at idle, in the driveway (I hadn't driven) it was doing pretty sweet. Now, holy . I will run codes again when I get the time. Working for a living SUCKS.
There are two possibilities for the idle surge:
1. Vacuum leak, most likely. Check everything. If you can't find an external vacuum leak it is possible that the lower part of the intake gasket is not sealing well and there is an air leak between the intake ports and the lifter valley. What intake gasket did you use and did it line up with the heads ok?
2. Your cam is beyond what the EEC can compensate for. I know people have issues running a E303 or Trick Flow stage 1 cam without an EEC tune. The cam I'm running is mild enough that the EEC can compensate and it drives like a stock cam (albeit with more top end pull) without a tune. I doubt you specifically need a tune but it is possible.
If you had 36psi fuel pressure with the vacuum line off yesterday and 40psi today with no other changes then you could have a fuel pump issue. If it's possible I would tape a fuel pressure gauge to the window and drive the car around to see what the fuel pressure is under different conditions. How old is the pump you are running, what lph is it, and what brand? Anything over 155lph is going to be just fine.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 27, 2014, 08:59:22 PM
The fuel pump is a few months old. Doesn't mean it can't be going bad though. I was thinking about that. I also agree with the possible vacuum leak. Not sure how to diagnose that other than from the outside. As far as the cam being too big, I hope not. When Ed made it, he knew my complete information from computer, MAF size, ....everything. I can't get the gauge to the window. I will check the pressure again in the morning and after work. It may be the cause of my slight surging as well. I will YANK that lower intake to swap gaskets if I have to. It has felPro gaskets. They lined up well.
Also, I did go from 12 to 18 degrees. maybe I need to drop it down a wee bit and try that as well. Maybe too much timing. Because it did stay running prior to the timing bump and rocker adjusting.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 27, 2014, 09:03:54 PM
I know I can move the timing on my car from 14* to 18* base with virtually no change in idle speed. What brand is your fuel pump? It's not a cheap eBay no name pump is it?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 27, 2014, 11:12:12 PM
The pump is a Walbro 255 lph unit I bought new. I will say, the hole on the bottom was smaller than my other pump, but, as I stated....it could still be going bad. I may get another pump and see if there's any difference at all. I have my old pump that is a no name brand, but, it may help rule out an issue. And since I have the panel in the trunk, it's a ten minute job.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 28, 2014, 08:39:43 AM
Vin, I remember you posting a thread concerning harness differences....
What ECU do you have? What ECU harness? What O2 Harness?
Please provide the years on the harnesses as well. Also; if you've run codes recently, what were/are they if any? The stock CougarBird 86-88 SD harness is pretty unique in that the oil level sender is not inclusive in it. I'm trying to figure out if the way they ground are different as well. I know there is a difference between the Mustang auto vs 5 speed, but the CougarBird harness might be different in that regard as well. There are differences with regard to the years as well WRT Mustang processors/O2 harnesses.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 28, 2014, 10:44:17 AM
The Harness is from my car, 1988 Sport. Mass Air upgrade, A9P computer. O2 harness and the rest is also from the Sport. None of this started until the heads and cam were swapped.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 28, 2014, 11:17:43 AM
Do you have the VSS wires connected to the VSS on your ECC harness? I believe they are pins 3 & 6.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 28, 2014, 12:22:52 PM
I honestly don't remember. I do know that I've had the Mass Air conversion for a few years now. Zero issues. Now, once the heads,cam and rockers are on, she's acting up. NOW, I did have the idle right, and the timing was at 12 degrees. I went to 18 and it started getting hinky. SO, after work, I'm going to drop it to 16 and see what happens.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 28, 2014, 01:06:08 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;439841
Do you have the VSS wires connected to the VSS on your ECC harness? I believe they are pins 3 & 6.
Darren
Good read on that here: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?38096-Mass-air-conversion-question
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 28, 2014, 06:34:40 PM
I did not add those. I also never had any issues until now either, so, maybe I need them......I will give it a shot when I can get to the boneyard and grab the correct wires and go from there. Thanks.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 28, 2014, 06:39:14 PM
By the way, I dropped the timing down to around 16 (I gotta double check that), and the car still died. I don't have time to do a new base idle reset, so, I simply turned the throttle stop screw a wee bit for a few rpms. It'll do until I have time to get into it this weekend. I am still seeking answers, but, will roll with what I have as well. Making a lit.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 29, 2014, 12:33:43 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439854
I did not add those. I also never had any issues until now either, so, maybe I need them......I will give it a shot when I can get to the boneyard and grab the correct wires and go from there. Thanks.
Vinnie you have an 88 Thunderbird. The 88 cars have the vss wiring from the factory. My 88 Thunderbird had the vss wires in pins 3&6 so your car should as well.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Kitz Kat on October 29, 2014, 02:38:30 AM
I may have missed it, did you run codes?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 29, 2014, 07:16:49 AM
I did, and the only codes I got were the secondary fuel "something'....a Mustang code. Not for my car. I'm going to run codes again this week.
Thunderjet, Thanks. After you said that, it reminded me of why I didn't mess with it back then. Kitz is the one who bullied me into doing the Mass AIr upgrade. LOL. LOL.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 29, 2014, 11:01:50 AM
Vinnie,
Never did get a response from post #51 with regards if you degree the cam when you installed it. I know you have a lot on your plate so I wanted to ask again. Also, did Ed saying anything with regards to the valve springs you have on your heads in relation to the camshaft that you got?
I always go 1/2 turn when adjusting my valves and then set the poly lock. I set the poly lock with a T-handle allen wrench and then use a wrench to turn the nut about a 1/16 of a turn to lock it. Trying to lock the allen screw until you hear a pop is pretty hard with the motor in the car.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 29, 2014, 12:49:05 PM
Check for arcing ignition wires :p
Should solve my rough idle tonight. It got the the point that I simply increased my idle to compensate, so I could drive the thing for a gear swap. My "rough idle" became a few hundred rpm's. At lower rpm levels, when the car would go into "idle mode" after a few seconds, the engine would die off.
If compression is good, car is in neutral to prevent throwing drivetrain issues into the mix, spark is sufficient and not escaping before the plugs, fuel pressure is good, you don't have any plugs that show a lean or rich condition, and timing is correct, the engine should run fine.
I don't get any other codes on my A9P EEC. I had the standard TAB/TAD solenoid errors, which I disabled, but no other errors. What is this "fuel" error exactly?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 29, 2014, 01:32:02 PM
What he is getting is most likely a code for the fuel pump with regards to a secondary circuit failure which is common in MAF converted cars. Below is an article on the conversion in which it talks about running a wire for this very reason in Section 5.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on October 29, 2014, 02:54:26 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;439880
What he is getting is most likely a code for the fuel pump with regards to a secondary circuit failure which is common in MAF converted cars. Below is an article on the conversion in which it talks about running a wire for this very reason in Section 5.
Yeah, no idea. I never got that code. I don't think I did anything special, but my car has been mass air for quite awhile now - who knows what I did back then.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 29, 2014, 07:10:44 PM
I did Mass Air about 5 years ago. It has never given me an issue. Today, I dropped the friggin timing down to 14, and it didn't die, but it started dropping some smoke under acceleration. It didn't smoke at 16 or 18 at all, but wouldn't stay running. Swapping the fuel pump this week, and then whatever else I can friggin' do.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 29, 2014, 07:39:08 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439868
I did, and the only codes I got were the secondary fuel "something'....a Mustang code. Not for my car. I'm going to run codes again this week.
Thunderjet, Thanks. After you said that, it reminded me of why I didn't mess with it back then. Kitz is the one who bullied me into doing the Mass Air upgrade. LOL. LOL.
It's a code 95 for the secondary fuel pump circuit. Run a wire from the fuel pump relay to the corresponding pin on the PCM and it goes away. The pin is pin #19. It's not so much a "Mustang" code as it is a Mass Air code. If your'e seeing the code I'll be pedantic and say it IS for your car -- just like mine. I haven't run it either. Don't feel bad.
I do plan on doing that along with some other stuff on the car this weekend so long as we don't get snow like the weather man predicts......
Do a KOEO/Continuous Memory followed by a KOER and a cylinder balance test. Let us know the results.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on October 29, 2014, 07:47:35 PM
To much timing Vinnie. Drop it back to like 14 max. remember advanced timing hurts top end to an extent.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 29, 2014, 08:51:42 PM
Paul, I will do that Saturday and report in.
Tom, it's weird......If it's at 16 to 18 degrees. The car has no smoke under heavy acceleration. At 14 degrees, which I set it to after work today, it has smoke under heavy acceleration. There's still something very hinky going on. AT 14 degrees, the car doesn't die. AT 16 and up it does. There's GOT to be a happy middle ground. I will have to do another idle reset, as something isn't right with that either. Mild hunting, too. Maybe My fuel pump is playing a part in this. I'm swapping that this weekend as well just to rule it out. I wonder if the smoke is from not enough fuel. I'm guessing. I wish you guys lived near me so you could see how it is in person. Crazy stuff. I've only been trying to figure it out for 7 weeks.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 29, 2014, 08:52:25 PM
I also still have the 180 degree thermostat in. Is that an issue with aluminum heads?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on October 29, 2014, 11:25:53 PM
Nope. No problem. I've.thought about using a 170. I've had a 180 for years.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 30, 2014, 07:42:08 AM
For now, I'm planning on installing the fuel pump tomorrow (a friend has it), and then codes, then, we'll see what happens from there. .
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on October 30, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
What color is the smoke again?
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 30, 2014, 12:43:27 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;439920
What color is the smoke again?
Darren
I'm starting to think all of this is a fueling issue. Fuel pump/regulator/O2 sensor issue. It sounds like the car is running rich as hell. Could be to O2s signaling lean from a vacuum leak or something else. Changing the timing 4* should not cause crazy idle issues. I can go from 10*-18* base on my Thunderbird and the idle doesn't change much at all. With stock programing 18* base is 34* total at WOT. I run 16* on the street and 18* at the track and my car idles fine with no surging. It was 42* outside this morning and the thing fired up fine when I took it for a drive. I can't imagine the cam he's running is so radical that it needs a tune to idle and not run rich.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on October 30, 2014, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439904
I also still have the 180 degree thermostat in. Is that an issue with aluminum heads?
Nope. Been running a 180* thermostat for years. Car runs a max of 185* in 95* weather with the A/C on.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on October 30, 2014, 02:48:19 PM
Like I said, the parts I have now, other than the heads, cam and rockers are the same, no issues before. The spark plugs look really clean. like....crazy clean. I'm swapping my fuel pump tomorrow, checking for a vacuum leak and then hopefully I can find SOMETHING that's just plain wrong. I'll also post the cam specs tonight after work.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 01, 2014, 10:53:41 AM
I have noticed this week, that when I'm driving, there have been three or four times, but only for a minute, that the car seemed "right". Pulling hard, running great, then, back to the same old issues. Today, I'm going to install a replacement fuel pump first, then, go from there with codes, check the spark plugs, check for vacuum leaks etc. I have waited all week to do this, I wake up and it's 30 degrees. It was in the mid 70's yesterday. So I'm waiting for an hour or so.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 01, 2014, 11:40:48 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440043
I have noticed this week, that when I'm driving, there have been three or four times, but only for a minute, that the car seemed "right". Pulling hard, running great, then, back to the same old issues. Today, I'm going to install a replacement fuel pump first, then, go from there with codes, check the spark plugs, check for vacuum leaks etc. I have waited all week to do this, I wake up and it's 30 degrees. It was in the mid 70's yesterday. So I'm waiting for an hour or so.
Yeah, those things can be difficult to diagnose. I will be doing the same soon, but my issue was a bit different. The temperature would be similar, but in the morning I would be 1 point leaner than in the evening - EVERY SINGLE DAY. I don't remember the details, but I will be looking for that issue again soon. It happened with stock MAF and Pro-M MAF, so I tried it with a stock tune and 19lb injectors, but had the same issue.
It was difficult to diagnose WITH datalogging all the engine parameters - it could be even impossible without it. All sensors appeared to be reading things correctly. Since the EEC does some cleanup/filtering of signals though, it could be an erratic signal that the EEC has trouble compensating for sometimes. An oscilloscope or logging-multimeter could help pinpoint the issue IF you can consistently reproduce the issue.
I don't remember - do you have a wideband? Just a simple gauge can tell you if you're going lean at times. If the computer is shooting for 11.6:1, a good amount of power exists when the EEC hits 12.5:1 instead - that can account for the power. If it shoots for 12.5:1 but goes over 13:1, the power losses are huge. It doesn't even know there's a problem since the narrowband sensors simply report that the ratio is rich, but they don't know by how much.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 04, 2014, 07:20:09 AM
No wideband. Yesterday, on the way to the UPS STore after work, the car was a little sluggish, popping a couple of times, and it felt like there was a miss a little bit.....Once I got to the UPS STore and did my business, I got in the car and started it, and it was strong and ready to go. Crazy stuff. It's done that to me before. Almost died the other day at a stop light, so I had to keep giving it a little gas to keep the idle up, so I killed it, restarted it, and it ran better. Weird stuff.
No codes yet as I'm crazy busy at work this week. Hopefully very soon.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 04, 2014, 10:53:13 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440142
No wideband. Yesterday, on the way to the UPS STore after work, the car was a little sluggish, popping a couple of times, and it felt like there was a miss a little bit.....Once I got to the UPS STore and did my business, I got in the car and started it, and it was strong and ready to go. Crazy stuff. It's done that to me before. Almost died the other day at a stop light, so I had to keep giving it a little gas to keep the idle up, so I killed it, restarted it, and it ran better. Weird stuff.
No codes yet as I'm crazy busy at work this week. Hopefully very soon.
How long does it stay running better after a restart? The EEC will be commanding a richer mixture when in open-loop. This mixture will be different than WOT, which is also different than in closed-loop.
Whether EFI or carb, a wideband really is needed to get it dialed in properly. That will reveal a lot.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 04, 2014, 11:26:58 AM
After a restart, it runs better for about a minute or two. Very responsive. It did this about a year and a half ago. Before the heads and cam were all changed. I remember swapping the coil and the ignition module and it was better. Can't remember which one fixed it. Sadly, the car's budget will not allow much right now. So, making the best of it until the budget is higher. I have an NOS ignition module in the garage. I think I'll instll it Friday after work or Saturday mid morning. If it helps, great. If not, one more question answered.
I have no doubt or worries about this, I know it'll eventually get figured out. One day at a time. Thanks guys for your patience. I guess this stuff is why we're here. LOL.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 05, 2014, 07:58:05 PM
The ol' girl is still popping a wee bit through the throttle body, then I turn off the car, restart, good to go.....for two minutes, then same old thing. Codes as soon as I can. I checked hoses, sprays carb cleaner, and can NOT find a vacuum leak. Spark plugs look CLEAN.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 05, 2014, 08:09:37 PM
You needs da codes! ;)
Seriously without codes it's hard to guess exactly what is going on. I would stop swapping on parts till you get a chance to read the codes.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 05, 2014, 08:13:52 PM
I agree. Codes Friday after work.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 08, 2014, 03:32:23 PM
O.K......codes....
81 82 84 95 33 63
My car has no smog or EGR equipment. It showed the TPS to be faulty, I swapped it with a Ford part (I have about 10 of them), and that changed a LOT. So, that's where I stand right now.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 08, 2014, 03:41:28 PM
Code 63 is the TPS all the others are meaningless
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 08, 2014, 03:45:06 PM
Need to redo the base idle now.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 08, 2014, 04:25:20 PM
Aerocoupe, I was thinking that as well. I'll do it in a little bit. This is what I've been using for the Base Idle Reset. Look good to you?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 08, 2014, 05:50:50 PM
The car is still doing a little of the "shuddering" a bit. It does feel a lot stronger though. I am going to get an NOS IAC and TPS and a new fuel pump. Not sure if it's being consistent.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 08, 2014, 05:53:53 PM
Vinnie do a KOER (engine running) code test as well. KOEO (engine off) is good but the KOER test will give you more valuable information about what the engine is doing when it's running.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 08, 2014, 05:58:46 PM
I've got plans for that tomorrow right after the base idle reset.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 08, 2014, 06:06:41 PM
This is the one I use.
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 08, 2014, 06:22:31 PM
I have it marked, I'll give it a try tomorrow before I do the KOER test.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 09, 2014, 02:48:31 AM
Just a thought - I thought I had one minor vacuum leak. Only one could be found with spray. I ended up having leaks at the upper-to-lower intake, IAC, EGR gasket, EGR valve, and valve cover. The others didn't appear to exist, but they do/did. I still have two leaks to finish repairing. One is going to require some fill-weld and grinding.
I went through and started carefully sanding every mating surface flat - even my newer Accufab throttle body to IAC wouldn't seal without RTV. New gasket didn't help. The surface looked flat with a "straightedge" (not a mechanic's straightedge), but it wasn't.
I'm up 2 more inches of vacuum since the start of repairs some days ago! The engine is responding much better to changes in variables, and while still a shaky idle with Chuck's mounts, it idles pretty consistently now. I hope to get my tail pipes re-welded and hooked back up soon and move to tuning driving conditions.
I'm curious vinnie - when you are in neutral and quickly floor the pedal, then let off, how quickly does your motor respond? I think that may be a pretty good test to show either vacuum leaks, or a (lack of) tuning issue.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 08:16:35 AM
I'll check that and report in today. Stay tuned.....
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jcassity on November 09, 2014, 08:42:12 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;439794
Anywhere between .6 and 1.1v is within parameters. The setting it to .999999 stuff is . The TPS triggers WOT mode at the base voltage PLUS 2.71v. Every startup the PCM takes note of the TPS voltage with the throttle closed. Every time. Why? Because it WILL change slightly from one startup to the next.
I shoot for .85v myself.
catching up........ I don't agree 100%, I do somewhat but.... if your mounting holes are slotted and you rotate the TPS cw and ccw while at idle, you notice the idle will go up and down with it. I am pretty sure getting it to the value you said is optimum but for some reason I dial it a tad lower to about what tom said. I noticed that if you put a flat head screwdriver in a tps and image the screw driver is your throttle plate, rotate the TPS, you will see what angle you max out at proportional to the voltage at the green wire.
another thing to look for on a TPS is the max resistance. I had three identical pn's on a bench , the black and org wire on one of them read 30% lower than the other two.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jcassity on November 09, 2014, 08:44:31 AM
Quote from: Seek;439806
TPS is fine. These things aren't "adjustable". The EEC will learn where it's at, as long as it is not severely out of range - I believe it will throw a code it that is the case.
As long as it's in range, and its voltage goes up/down smoothly as you move the throttle, the TPS is good and working.
Not sure what Tom is going on about with 0.60V.
they are and in the early days all of them had oval holes.... the TC's escorts and another one I cant remember all 4 bangers have oval mounts.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jcassity on November 09, 2014, 08:51:19 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;439825
. I can't get the gauge to the window..
figure out how to with an extender or rig up ,,,, that's the only way to see early symptoms of fuel pump failure.
you will see the needle go low at high rpm's but you don't want it to go lower than about 25 at top spin rpm,, it the needle should recover very quickly at low rpm's. my last windshield mount test I did showed my fp at the 17psi range,, put in the supercharge v6 pump for the fix.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 08:58:48 AM
For the TPS, my throttle body has an adjuster on the top for it. s far as the fuel pump, Unsure of that. NEXT week I'm going to strip off the intake and re-install it and triple check for vacuum leaks. I couldn't find any visually or with spray, but there may be a hidden leak, so, swapping the gaskets is ten bucks and a little time......weather permitting.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jcassity on November 09, 2014, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: thunderjet302;440207
You needs da codes! ;)
Seriously without codes it's hard to guess exactly what is going on. I would stop swapping on parts till you get a chance to read the codes.
then its 95% chance of being a mechanical problem.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Going to do a KOER test soon....
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 01:21:20 PM
I'm taking the Bird to Oriellys to do a balance test. There machine is probably way more accurate than mine.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 02:21:41 PM
I ran it at Oriellys....code 60, 80, and 90. Not sure if the test was a good one. I'll do my own on my py little machine later.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 09, 2014, 08:23:03 PM
Vinnie,
I'll look when I get home but I don't think those are even real codes.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 08:29:52 PM
I don't either. Not in my code book. I'm going to have it re tested when Lance, their manager gets back. It was hid day off. The guys at Oreillys had NO clue that the Thunderbird was even a Ford. Really? Douche bags.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 09, 2014, 10:35:10 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440391
I don't either. Not in my code book. I'm going to have it re tested when Lance, their manager gets back. It was hid day off. The guys at Oreillys had NO clue that the Thunderbird was even a Ford. Really? Douche bags.
I don't have any emblems on my car right now, but I've been surprised by how many people recognize the car as a tbird. Even my tails are currently missing their emblems. All is not lost with the human species!
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Haystack on November 09, 2014, 10:38:46 PM
60 means cylinder 6 failed the balance test, 80 means cylinder 8 failed, and 90 means all cylinders passed.
You can run the balance test by flooring the gas pedal at any point after codes have been ran, within two minutes. Once the balance test has finished, you can run it again up to three times. As long as you get a pass the first two times, your balance is within specs.
The tps voltage doesn't matter. My cougar reads 1.25's at idle and does not surge one bit.
*edit*
As long as tps reads between .59 and 1.29volts, and reaches 3.5's over base to reach wot.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Haystack on November 09, 2014, 10:40:52 PM
If you want ill make a video of the balance test on my cougar with a test light and a paperclip, and upload it to YouTube.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 10:56:45 PM
Not yet haystack. I'm going to run a test with my little tester. It did good a couple of years ago when I did that test. It'll work fine, if the guy at Oriellys can't do it. If so, I can just watch.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Haystack on November 09, 2014, 11:05:29 PM
Good luck, and let us know.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 09, 2014, 11:07:07 PM
Will do. I hate to be left hanging when people are looking for answers. Thanks a lot.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 09, 2014, 11:09:40 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440379
I ran it at Oriellys....code 60, 80, and 90. Not sure if the test was a good one. I'll do my own on my py little machine later.
That would be cylinders 6&8 failed the cylinder balance test and they all passed. That's only possible if the test was run three times.
Vinnie if you have a code reader the KOER and cylinder balance test is easy to do. Just warm the car up and shut it off. Then plug the code reader in. Turn the car on and then press the test button on the code reader. After it spits out the last code do a brief wide open throttle. The computer will then run a cylinder balance test. After it has run the test you'll get a code (90 is pass, any other number is the cylinder that failed ie 70 is cylinder 7 failing). You can run the test up to 3 times in a row to narrow down a cylinder that isn't contributing fully.
Don't be afraid to run the KOER test and cylinder balance on your own. It's easy and you really can't screw up the car :).
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 09, 2014, 11:15:02 PM
As long as your tester can pull codes (or you use a paperclip), you can run the cylinder balance test and get the codes. After all, all the tests are performed by the EEC - the code reader only starts the test and counts the flashes slowly sent by the EEC. The same thing that can be done with a paperclip and check-engine light.
No obd1 tester is better or worse than another.
Good luck - hope you don't find weak cylinders! That can be a pain to diagnose. You may want to re-run the set of tests a couple times to make sure you get consistent codes. If not consistent, the issue can be anything from a rotor, to a vacuum leak. http://www.corral.net/tech/maintenance/eecivtest-balance.html
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 10, 2014, 07:13:33 AM
I've run one before. No worries. I just figured since I was out, and they had the device to check it.....let them. I'll do it again myself and see if I come up with something different.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 10, 2014, 12:05:47 PM
Another good read:
http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,2471.0.html
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2014, 05:27:57 PM
Jay setting the TPS to .60 allows the ecm to run WOT parameters earlier. It adds to 2.71. Another words the .60 + 2.71 will be 3.31 and command WOT with less throttle opening. lets say you set at 1.0 add that to 2.71 and you get 3.71. Much higher number to trigger WOT. Another words more throttle opening to accomplish WOT parameters.Always set for the lower numbers to bring in WOT parameters sooner. Thanks
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2014, 05:34:20 PM
Stacks you are pushing on those TPS numbers. It does make a big difference where it is set as i explained. SES light is at or around .5 and 1.31. So beware and always shoot for lower numbers not higher numbers as i explained. >6 is the ticket. Been doing it for many years.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2014, 05:36:40 PM
Vinny never use the MIN IDLE screw to set the TPS. That is totally incorrect
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 10, 2014, 07:02:28 PM
I don't know if I'm just not understanding Tom correctly (verbiage) or if he thinks the EEC works differently than it actually does.
The EEC learns the base throttle voltage when the car starts. The TPS sensor is linear as far as I know. The EEC performs all of its TPS calculations from a voltage delta over base voltage.
You could have a range of 1.0-4.5V from closed to fully open, or 0.6-4.1V from closed to fully open. WOT will NOT be reached sooner, unless the TPS sensor doesn't report values linearly from linear movement of the throttle body's butterfly. From the base value, extra voltage from the throttle body opening will increase at the same rate no matter where the voltage starts, and hit WOT at the same spot since this is all relative to base voltage.
Examples with a 5v reference - I think I remember seeing roughly 3.5V between base and fully-open TB:
1.00V base idle 1.88V throttle body 1/4 open 2.75V throttle body halfway open 3.63V thtottle body 3/4 open 3.71V WOT engaged 4.50V throttle body completely open
0.60V base idle 1.48V throttle body 1/4 open 2.35V throttle body halfway open 3.23V thtottle body 3/4 open 3.31V WOT engaged 4.10V throttle body completely open
WOT happens at the same point of the throttle body opening. The voltage means nothing other than being a signal based on delta from base idle.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on November 10, 2014, 07:11:36 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;440430
Jay setting the TPS to .60 allows the ecm to run WOT parameters earlier. It adds to 2.71. Another words the .60 + 2.71 will be 3.31 and command WOT with less throttle opening. lets say you set at 1.0 add that to 2.71 and you get 3.71. Much higher number to trigger WOT. Another words more throttle opening to accomplish WOT parameters.Always set for the lower numbers to bring in WOT parameters sooner. Thanks
Higher voltage yes, but how would it correlate to more throttle opening needed?
Let's say that the start point; i.e. a closed throttle blade is ZERO POSITION for all intents and purposes. Whether you set the TPS voltage for the zero position to .6, 1.0, or any other value within parameters is moot, no? The voltage required to achieve WOT parameters is the same 2.71+V @ zero position.... Your start/stop point should be the same. The voltage seen at those will be different based upon voltage at the zero position.
The theory of setting it to .6v is akin to the same one stating that the TPS must be set to .9999v so long as the zero position voltage PLUS WOT trigger voltage is less than Vref, which is approximately 5 volts. If you're telling me you want that number as far from Vref as possible I can see your point. Otherwise, I'll disagree.
Shoot for the middle ground IMHO. The ECU takes note of the voltage in the key on engine off position every time because it WILL vary with temperature/humidity/whatever else(radiation from the nearby reactor? LOL!)
BASE IDLE RESET PROCEDURE (http://"http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,1031.0.html")
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 10, 2014, 07:48:19 PM
I set the TPS with the adjuster on top of the throttle body. The only time I use the adjuster screw on the throttle body is when I will set the base idle. Right now, my TPS is set at .95. I have an NOS Ford TPS in route and it will go on when it gets here. Today on the way to work, the car pulled strong when I started it and took off, then, about 90 seconds later or so, it started that thing it does, a little pop through the throttle body (just one), and running a wee bit rough. SO, I turned the car off, and it restarted it, ran strong for about 90 seconds or so, then back to the same old stuff. No time for anything today, just work. I posted the KOEO codes, balance test and other codes soon.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 10, 2014, 08:55:34 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440440
I set the TPS with the adjuster on top of the throttle body. The only time I use the adjuster screw on the throttle body is when I will set the base idle. Right now, my TPS is set at .95. I have an NOS Ford TPS in route and it will go on when it gets here. Today on the way to work, the car pulled strong when I started it and took off, then, about 90 seconds later or so, it started that thing it does, a little pop through the throttle body (just one), and running a wee bit rough. SO, I turned the car off, and it restarted it, ran strong for about 90 seconds or so, then back to the same old stuff. No time for anything today, just work. I posted the KOEO codes, balance test and other codes soon.
Sounds like closed-loop issues - 14.7:1 is too lean for your engine for some reason. The computer should be able to compensate for a small, steady vacuum leak, but if it's already compensating to the max of its abilities (10-11% from base fuel tables), you could be running too lean. Of course, timing and everything else also changes in closed-loop - Some of the timing side can be tested by seeing if the 90-second thing still happens while the SPOUT plug is removed from the wiring at the distributor. You should be able to reproduce the 90-second closed-loop switch simply by idling in neutral. How the engine runs will noticeably change.
I'm dealing with the opposite issues - my car runs better the hotter it gets and the longer it runs. Runs worse when cold. Whatever I find as the culprit on mine, do the opposite on yours! :p
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 10, 2014, 09:06:43 PM
I'll let it run a bit in neutral and see what happens. I gotta get the KOER test done and a balance test done. I'm going to triple check vacuum leak stuff as soon as possible. News as it happens. Codes as I get them.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 10, 2014, 09:20:09 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440445
I'll let it run a bit in neutral and see what happens. I gotta get the KOER test done and a balance test done. I'm going to triple check vacuum leak stuff as soon as possible. News as it happens. Codes as I get them.
I've found that vacuum leaks can be pretty much impossible to detect, if they are small enough and/or numerous enough. After I fixed some extremely minor leaks, my EGR started to show leakage - and it's an almost new Motorcraft unit! It seems I can force a leak at almost any spot by simply pushing 20psi into the intake system. Normally I'd expect leakage at a capped-off throttle body, but with a stronger seal, the air finds other ways to exit the motor. This is an area where carb WOULD be easier - far fewer spots where leaks can occur!
I believe the intake should be able to hold 20psi without a problem. My leaks have gone from 1psi to 5psi holding, by fixing some leaks. Obviously I have more, but they are getting more difficult to find as the holding pressure goes up. I have no idea how much the seals in the block can handle.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 10, 2014, 10:15:19 PM
First off setting to a lower voltage brings the ECM in to WOT at a lower throttle opening. Base Plus 2.71. Simple math will tell yopu that the ECM calculates WOT voltage from closed throttle TPS plus 2.71. So the higher the TPS at closed throttle the higher the WOT nunbers gets. Or the higher the throttle opening angle. That is why newer OBD2 computers give you throttle angle along with voltage. The ECM does not use 100% throttle angle for WOT readings or lets say 5.0Volts. It uses base Plus 2.71 has been this way forever and that is why i set low. According to ford anything from .55- 1.1 is OK. Ses is set parameters are i think .48-1.13. Lower than .48 or higher than 1.13 and you get a code. So the mith that you should be as close to 1.0 is just that a myth. and it hurts performance. Bottom line is set min idle to 700-750 with the IAC disconnected and the tps @ .60 and then hook the IAC up and drive the car to learn the new settings. never use the Min idle adjustment for base idle. So many people mess this up and do not know how to set min idle and TPS. That is why Ford made the TPS non adjustable on the 302. But i slot the sensor to make my WOT come in earlier with a lower TPS base closed throttle setting.So if you engine is started with a TPS setting of lets say around .60 It concludes its WOT setting everytime at approximately the same number 3.31 Volts. OK clear enough!!
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on November 10, 2014, 11:38:06 PM
Quote
Simple math will tell yopu that the ECM calculates WOT voltage from closed throttle TPS plus 2.71. So the higher the TPS at closed throttle the higher the WOT nunbers gets.
Yes. I am pretty certain we're all in agreement on this. It's basic math.
Quote
Ses is set parameters are i think .48-1.13. Lower than .48 or higher than 1.13 and you get a code. So the mith that you should be as close to 1.0 is just that a myth
From what I understand the voltages are .5-1.19, but yes we're in agreement AGAIN.
Quote
First off setting to a lower voltage brings the ECM in to WOT at a lower throttle opening. Base Plus 2.71.
Changing the start point voltage WILL NOT change how far the throttle needs to be open to achieve the WOT strategy. It will simply change the voltage seen. Ford TPS sensors deliver a linear signal. That is to say move it from the start position to say a 45 degree angle of opening, you will see x amount of voltage over the start voltage whether it be .6v, 1.0v, .777777v, whatever.... It will be whatever you started with PLUS X volts at that same 45 degree opening.
If setting the TPS voltage with throttle closed to the lowest value caused WOT to come in at a lower throttle angle every myth concerning the TPS would most likely have stated to shoot for .5v and not the holy grail .99v PLUS this basically contradicts the rest of what you stated.
As per the GUFB:
Quote
OVERVIEW The throttle mode scheduler is used to determine what engine operating region is currently extant. The variable APT (At Part Throttle flag) is used to indicate throttle mode and is assigned the following values: Throttle Mode APT ------------------ --- CLOSED THROTTLE -1 PART THROTTLE 0 WIDE OPEN THROTTLE 1 The value of APT is determined by the logic shown on the following page. Briefly, throttle angle breakpoints, in terms of counts, are used to define the CLOSED/PART_THROTTLE and PART/WIDE_OPEN_THROTTLE transitions. Hysteresis is incorporated in both breakpoints to prevent jitter between modes. The variable RATCH is the output of a ratchet algorithm which continuously seeks the minimum throttle angle corresponding to a CLOSED THROTTLE position. This alleviates the necessity to set the throttle position sensor at an absolute position and compensates for system changes and differences between vehicles. The ratchet algorithm uses filtered throttle position for the determination of RATCH. A more detailed explanation of the throttle position ratchets and throttle position filter is contained in the SYSTEM EQUATIONS section
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 11, 2014, 12:01:18 AM
Yeah, the sweep of the tps will be ~3.5Volts from closed to fully open - the throttle MUST open the SAME amount to reach WOT, no matter what the base Voltage is set to.
Also, 700rpm of idle isn't correct for a stock tune either. The EEC wants to see something closer to 600-624rpms base idle. In DRIVE, the EEC will try to reach 624rpms.
See attachment - stock tune. You can also see the next setting that is used for telling the EEC how much air is entering the motor at idle. A bit redundant with the MAF sensor, but it's there.
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17439
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 11, 2014, 12:04:31 AM
My cam is not stock by any means. I really doubt it could idle that low. Maybe I'm wrong. As of now, it wants between 800 to 900 rpms.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 11, 2014, 12:10:55 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440457
My cam is not stock by any means. I really doubt it could idle that low. Maybe I'm wrong. As of now, it wants between 800 to 900 rpms.
That's fine - just saying that shooting for 700-750 as a base guideline isn't correct. I've idled as low as 500rpms years ago; any lower and the car would start to have problems and surge (EEC trying to keep the motor running with the IAC). You may be able to idle lower (if you cared) after getting all the other variables worked out. Like everyone always says - it's all about the total package, not just various parts thrown together.
The EEC also has settings for max idle in drive. I haven't played with this, but it is set to 824rpms. I'm not sure how/if the EEC compensates idle with the IAC when your base rpm's are already this high. There are a lot of settings that allow the computer to add even more air from the IAC.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 11, 2014, 12:15:37 AM
I agree with you. A lower idle would be nice. I'm also wanting all the variables worked out. I need more time in the week. One day at a time.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Haystack on November 11, 2014, 09:03:34 AM
My car has no tos code and a rock steady idle. In not pushing anything past where it was designed to be. Just maybe a slightly worn out sensor, that still reads correctly. I've never even slotted my tps or adjusted it. Just bolted down and verified it.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 11, 2014, 08:02:24 PM
Ok as usual i am wasting my time. But look at what 302 caption says. It clearly says .6 Volts as TPS closed throttle according to Ford so be it as it may Ford says idle should be adjusted to 700-725 with IAC disconnected Because i know Vinny has a non stock cam he should start a bit on the high side for min idle and auto trannys as well. But Min idle can be anywhere around 650-750 according to Ford. As the matter of fact the 2.3 is set closer to 750-800 and that is also determined by the bleed hole in the throttle plate. Now adjust the TPS to any god dam setting you want AS i have proven several times WOT parameters come in sooner with a lower TPS setting. The ecm calculates this not me. Base plus 2.71. Now i am swamped in the shop and i have a headache discussing this with no reason because that is how it is done and that is how i do it. With that have a great god dam evening
Once the ecm reaches Base TPS voltage plus 2.71 the ecm goes in to WOT. Adding more voltage after that point is meaningless because The ECM is already commanded WOT. So going to lets say 4.0 means nothing once the magic number is reached. That number is Base plus 2.71. Does it make a difference if lower YES as the ECM adds fuel and timing at that point. So sooner is better than later. Now i have a real bad headache and i am going to sy good night!!
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 11, 2014, 08:21:19 PM
1 First bring the engine up to normal operating temperature. 2. Turn the engine off and unplug the Idle Air Control (IAC). 3. Start engine and using a screwdriver adjust the base idle to 700 – 725 RPM using the screw on the throttle body 4 Set the TPS to app .65 volts 5 connect the IAC and test drive the vehicle to relearn the new settings
This is from FORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 11, 2014, 08:50:18 PM
Tom, I'll give it a try.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jandmmustangs on November 11, 2014, 08:52:48 PM
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 11, 2014, 09:12:34 PM
I'm in for that. I like Ford literature. LOL. I think that's how it was mentioned earlier. It'll be when it warms up sin a few days.. Friggin cold out there right now. Of course it's getting cold, I have work I need to do.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 11, 2014, 09:44:11 PM
Either way, this stuff won't help you. A TPS sensor is either good or bad. If it has full range, reads the throttle movement consistently, and is within an expected Voltage range when the key is turned to ignition-on, the TPS sensor will not change how the car behaves. It matters none where the Voltage is at base idle, with the expected range. With mass air, the TPS sensor even plays a lesser role than speed density. With speed density, your car wouldn't have a clue how much air is entering the motor. With mass air sensors still functioning, you can limp home, or to a shop.
I don't know why all the fuss about TPS and base idle Voltage. Anyone that knows anything about electronics/electrical engineering will understand that a good TPS sensor for these engines will work the same no matter which Voltage range it is working within. Everything is based off of distance (delta) from base Voltage. In a linear switch or sensor, this delta will increase/decrease at the same rate, no matter what.
Now if we were talking about a 10V or 12V reference voltage from a 12V system, without something added into the circuit to keep the voltage consistent, using a lower base-idle voltage could help. We're talking about a relatively stable 5V reference voltage though - even if the battery is drained and only providing 10V (or you get into losses from small wiring harnesses), the 0-5V range is still available for a sensor's full sweep.
I'm curious Vinnie - what tools do you have in your home shop/garage? It would be good to know what the limitations are with your equipment, in terms of troubleshooting capability. There are ways to rig up something to get compressed air into the motor to check your valve seats, and push air into your intake to check for leaks, without needing to even purchase various gauges or testing products. Or a product such as this can allow you to thread right in and go: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wmr-w84003 Even a compression gauge could be used for inserting compressor air into a cylinder, if you use the hose similar to the one in that link, and adapt an air compressor hose to attach. Close valves to check for valve leaks, open intake valve to push air into intake (vacuum leaks) or open exhaust valve to push air into exhaust (exhaust leaks). It could take a day (garage preferable at this time of year) to pinpoint every leak, but it would help pinpoint any troublesome seals. Fill and feel around for air escaping (or hear it if the leak is bad enough)! Anyway, just a thought.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 11, 2014, 09:57:43 PM
As of right now, I'm having no concerns about the TPS.
Tools...basic tools, nothing fancy. Air compressor, vacuum gauge, volt meter, torque wrench...the basics.
I'm going to do the balance test and run the codes for KOER. After that I'll address things. I am going to swap out the vacuum lines under the upper intake, and have thought about swapping the lower intake gaskets as a just in case. I didn't find a leak, but there could be, and, as I stated, before the new cam and heads, I didn't have this issue. Lower intake gaskets and vacuum lines are $20. No big deal for a couple of hours work or less. Plus, it could answer a lot of questions I have.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 11, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440502
As of right now, I'm having no concerns about the TPS.
Tools...basic tools, nothing fancy. Air compressor, vacuum gauge, volt meter, torque wrench...the basics.
I'm going to do the balance test and run the codes for KOER. After that I'll address things. I am going to swap out the vacuum lines under the upper intake, and have thought about swapping the lower intake gaskets as a just in case. I didn't find a leak, but there could be, and, as I stated, before the new cam and heads, I didn't have this issue. Lower intake gaskets and vacuum lines are $20. No big deal for a couple of hours work or less. Plus, it could answer a lot of questions I have.
I'm paranoid about coolant and would change the oil twice after pulling the lower intake. Any green bubble that I see in the lifter valley and the oil gets a change, run for a few minutes, and changed again. Lower intake gets expensive!
Of course, use quality gaskets. The cheap basic paper ones (also from Felpro) will just split according to my great past experience. I check the mating surfaces for flatness and use studs to pull the intake on evenly/compress the gaskets evenly.
Unless extremely old, the hoses would be the last place I would look for a vacuum leak. They simply seal well due to the flexible nature of the material.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on November 12, 2014, 01:39:14 AM
And my quote was direct from the GUFB. That would be written by the guys who designed the system. .99999v is within specs. If that or .6v makes you warm and fuzzy inside, great! Go for it! It's not absolutely necessary is the point.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 12, 2014, 07:30:01 AM
Agreed. As I stated, the TPS isn't on my hot list. As far as gaskets, I always use quality gaskets, and I agree about the oil. I always change it after an intake gasket swap.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 06:11:08 AM
Scope readings on TPS and see what is really happening. I would suggest doing that before condeming my findings about base voltages
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 07:25:50 AM
No condemning of anything. I really don't think my issue is the TPS. I can't help but think it's fuel or ignition related. More ignition related. It's hard to explain why. But the car feels like it's missing just a little bit, the occasional pop through the t-body, and a tiny bit of surging. THEN, turn it off....re-start it, good to go....for a minute or so, then back to the same old stuff. NOW, that diagnosis is speculation. My car did this before about 2 years ago. I, for the life of me, can't remember what fixed it....a new coil or a new ignition module, or a new fuel pump. Just not sure. A lot has happened with the Sport since then.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 13, 2014, 09:36:04 AM
Vinnie,
I know you don't have a ton of time but could you summarize what the problem is and what has been done to date to fix it? I am so lost on this thread now that I have no idea which way is up. I'm pretty sure the whole rocker arm adjustment thing has been beat to death and that is now not a concern, maybe a new thread? I was just thinking that off the Subject line alone most people would never find this other info if they were searching.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 11:51:24 AM
Of course I will.....
Here's the bottom line. Rockers are fine now. Continuing issue is as foolows...Upon start up, the car runs pretty strong. After a minute or so, the car starts to run a little rough and there is an accasional pop through the throttle body, and a lack of power. If I turn the car off, then re-start it, the car is strong again, and runs great for about a minute or so, then back to the same old stuff.
I have had codes run, and the onlt one that was valid (I lited them back a few posts) was the TPS was faulty. I replaced with one I had in my parts, and that seemed to help a bit, but the issue above is still happening. I have an NOS Ford TPS in route.
The spark plugs have virtually nothing on them. super clean. maybe running lean.....
Idle is around 900
Timing is at 16 degrees.
Due to my work schedule, I haven't been able to run the KOER test yet. I cannot find a vacuum leak at all, but, there could still be one. I want to change the vacuum hoses out that are under the upper intake, and even swap the lower intake gaskets. Plenum gaskets and throttle body gaskets are new.
Once my first minute of happiness is over, it feels like there is also a stumble in the acceleration along with the lack of power. Re-start it....good to go for a minute or so.
I have not replaced the IAC. It's pretty new, but admittedly a China part. I want to replace it with an NOS Ford part as well....even if it is good.
Fuel problem maybe? I don't know. Sensor issue? Not sure.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 12:37:51 PM
Yeah, this thread has gotten confusing.
You say that you have issues when under 14 degrees of timing, but once you also said that the car was at 12 degrees, but ran fine. 16-18 degrees base timing like you say you have also had is quite a lot. I'd have to look, but you may see over 40 degrees of timing after being advanced by the EEC.
My guess is timing related. Obviously, make sure the distributor is locked down good and not moving around. Then there's cam timing (think this was discussed), and other potential issues such as a faulty distributor cap with the contacts clocked the wrong orientation.
I'm not sure why you would get smoke when using something closer to stock base timing - 10 degrees. Solve that and you may solve the entire problem.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 13, 2014, 12:45:03 PM
Still sounds like a fuel issue or vacuum leak to me. You could have a vacuum leak between the lifer valley and the bottom of the intake manifold but I doubt it. Before you take anything apart please, please do a KOER test followed by a cylinder balance test. If it passes start looking for a mechanical issue (vacuum leak, fuel pressure, etc.).
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 13, 2014, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: Seek;440548
Yeah, this thread has gotten confusing.
You say that you have issues when under 14 degrees of timing, but once you also said that the car was at 12 degrees, but ran fine. 16-18 degrees base timing like you say you have also had is quite a lot. I'd have to look, but you may see over 40 degrees of timing after being advanced by the EEC.
My guess is timing related. Obviously, make sure the distributor is locked down good and not moving around. Then there's cam timing (think this was discussed), and other potential issues such as a faulty distributor cap with the contacts clocked the wrong orientation.
I'm not sure why you would get smoke when using something closer to stock base timing - 10 degrees. Solve that and you may solve the entire problem.
As long as the cam timing is good he should be able to run 10* base timing to 18* base timing with no issue. It is possible that the cam timing is screwed up but I doubt it. For what it's worth I run 18* base timing on my setup at the track. On WOT runs it results in the best E.T./MPH. On the street I run 16* base. It doesn't detonate at 18* WOT but I'm worried it might under certain conditions (95* outside temperatures, A/C on, part throttle).
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 12:50:17 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;440550
Still sounds like a fuel issue or vacuum leak to me. You could have a vacuum leak between the lifer valley and the bottom of the intake manifold but I doubt it. Before you take anything apart please, please do a KOER test followed by a cylinder balance test. If it passes start looking for a mechanical issue (vacuum leak, fuel pressure, etc.).
12 degrees of timing making smoke, but 14 degrees not, is fuel related? That's what I don't get - Vinnie's timing has been all over the place in this thread. Setting to 10 degrees, then troubleshooting the cause of smoke, will get a major issue out of the way. There can be other issues (problems in closed loop would make me initially think vacuum leak), but this timing problem needs to get resolved.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 12:51:31 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;440551
As long as the cam timing is good he should be able to run 10* base timing to 18* base timing with no issue. It is possible that the cam timing is screwed up but I doubt it.
But he can't run 10 degrees base timing. He said he gets smoke at 12 degrees, so he is running it higher. That problem needs to be addressed. A smoke issue would be easier to troubleshoot and fix than numerous other things. It sounds like the timing is a poor bandaid for a different problem.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: thunderjet302 on November 13, 2014, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: Seek;440553
But he can't run 10 degrees base timing. He said he gets smoke at 12 degrees, so he is running it higher. That problem needs to be addressed. A smoke issue would be easier to troubleshoot and fix than numerous other things. It sounds like the timing is a poor bandaid for a different problem.
Maybe, just maybe, the cam is installed wrong? It would have to be WAAAAAAY off to be the cause of that issue though. I'm thinking it's unburnt fuel.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 01:26:50 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;440555
Maybe, just maybe, the cam is installed wrong? It would have to be WAAAAAAY off to be the cause of that issue though. I'm thinking it's unburnt fuel.
Agreed, but why the excess fuel. A cam installed straight up should generally be able to run well at the stock base timing. I doubt the cam is too radical. If his timing is so far off that he has a lot of fuel escaping unburnt, that is a problem. Obviously it could also be a fuel system issue. Either way, the car should be able to run at 10 degrees base without a bunch of smoke. It sounds like it runs better than in open loop, but has an issue when the motor switches to closed loop/14.7:1 AFR. If we could see the KAMRF values, we'd have a good idea immediately as to what is going on with closed loop.
We also don't know how much smoke there actually was. It is difficult to diagnose anything without all of the details that come from seeing it in person.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 13, 2014, 03:13:49 PM
Vinnie,
At the house sick today so I have nothing better to do but some digging around on this. I checked mostly Mustang sites as there is more info there and here were some of the culprits with cars that symptoms similar to yours:
1) bad o-rings on the injectors 2) bad PIP in the distributor 3) bad fuel pump 4) bad alternator/battery 5) bad EEC 6) various vacuum leaks 7) EGR valve sticking
Anyhow, just thought I would throw them out there.
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 03:24:56 PM
I assume these would be:
1) bad o-rings on the injectors - VACUUM LEAK 2) bad PIP in the distributor - TIMING 3) bad fuel pump - TESTED ALREADY BY VINNIE, BUT LEAN MIXTURE 4) bad alternator/battery - BAD GROUNDS MORE LIKELY - INCONSISTENT VOLTAGE 5) bad EEC - UNLIKELY BUT ALWAYS POSSIBLE WITH ANY PROBLEM 6) various vacuum leaks - VACUUM LEAK 7) EGR valve sticking - TEST WITH BLOCKOFF. DOESN'T AFFECT IDLE.
If he can get more information, it can help further pinpoint the issue. I think right now, we still know almost nothing - at least not enough to provide any solid suggestions. Right now it sounds like everyone is wanting to fire all new parts at the problem, and no specific parts. More information is needed, but Vinnie has limited tools available for diagnosis. He also has many parts moving in and out of his possession, so I am sure he has tested swapping out quite a few parts.
Blocking off or unplugging things is a cheap way to test various components, if it comes down to that.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 03:43:35 PM
Hey guys. I'm at work, checking in when I can.
1.I'll check the o-rings when I pull the upper intake to swap the vacuum lines. They should be good, they only have about 2000 miles on them
2. Bad pip....maybe. I have spares. The dist. is locked down tight.
3. Bad Fuel pump.....maybe. I have wondered. I swapped it out, but have since become paranoid nd want t swap it again.
4.Bad alternator....can't say. I had it tested about 3 months ago. It checked good and the battery is new.
5.Bad EEC.....I hope not, but if it is, I'll get a new one stat.
6.vacuum leaks...I'm really wondering that myself. Intake (upper and lower).
7.EGR...I have never had an EGR on this car. It has the EGR delete plug in the harness.
Yes, I want to get the KOER test as well. I'm very curious to see what it has to say....or not to say. Also, if the car had a lot of unburnt fuel, wouldn't that leave a lot of black on the plugs? They are clean, the porcelian under the electrode is white. I can post a pic of one tonight. They all look the same.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440562
Also, if the car had a lot of unburnt fuel, wouldn't that leave a lot of black on the plugs? They are clean, the porcelian under the electrode is white. I can post a pic of one tonight. They all look the same.
Yes. If I force open-loop through the tuner, after 10 minutes of running and pulling the plugs, they have a black coating. The AFRs were around 12:1. That's not to say that it isn't sometimes going lean and cleaning them off.
If easy to get to, you could unplug the o2 sensors. I'm betting that the car would continue to run "good" by keeping it in open loop. Your issue sounds like closed-loop/leaner mixtures are revealing the problem that you are looking into.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 05:11:10 PM
I can unplug the O2 sensors easily. Do you think I should run the car home like that to see if it makes a difference?
It is really strange because this wasn't an issue beforethe heads, cam and rockers were swapped.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 05:24:50 PM
Bottom line here is you have to do several basic tests. Leak down compression and check the AFR fuel; pressure and volume is mandatory. It sounds like open loop is where the car runs the best. So disconnecting the O2 sensors might work but the ECM will institute a base setting of around .5 volts. You might have to install a simulator and vary the voltage to shoot this trouble. I made one from a D cell battery. Also a smoke test i think is mandatory to eliminate possible vacuum leaks. Running the timing all over the place is useless as that engine should run good at 10-14* BTDC. I have never ran higher timing than that. It is unnecessary. And why the engine smokes with different timing settings is a mistery to me as it has nothing to do with that. What color SMOKE!!! So better get back to basics and run some solid old fashioned tests. By the way post the cam specks and compression figures. That will tell me a load of info. Also a wideband is mandatory in my opinion. Just me good luck. By the way forget Codes you have posted numbers that do not relate to this issue.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 05:32:02 PM
Surging and pops . You are Lean or retarded in ignition or cam. post compression numbers and cam specks. You definitely do not have a TPS issue , The ECM is not setting a code and you closed throttle voltage is in limits. You are LEAN in closed loop. Map is another possibility read it with a digital meter
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 05:36:27 PM
I'll post the cam specs when I get home tonight. I am hoping for a vacuum leak somewhere. Everything worked great until those parts were swapped.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 05:37:24 PM
The MAP sensor........how do you check that with a meter?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 06:52:04 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440570
The MAP sensor........how do you check that with a meter?
You'd probably have to google it, but obviously, it is a BAP sensor on your car, not MAP. It shouldn't have too big of an impact on a mass-air system, but a sensor is still a sensor.
You can pull the o2 sensors - just tuck the wires up some place. You will likely turn the plugs temporarily black with your drive home - it doesn't take long. I'm almost certain you will see that it drives the way you expect, without pops (according to your previous information).
This is where diagnostic equipment really CAN save you time and money in the long run. Swapping parts is annoying! Anyway, wideband would help, but it may not help as much as Tom thinks - the EEC will compensate, and if the o2's are still switching, the o2 will show ~14.7:1. You may have one bank that is failing to go into closed loop due to a lean mixture - when this happens, the EEC will use the working sensor's readings to control the fuel trim of both banks. Such a problem would lead me to believe one or more runners for one bank of the motor have a vacuum leak.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on November 13, 2014, 07:28:00 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440569
I'll post the cam specs when I get home tonight. I am hoping for a vacuum leak somewhere. Everything worked great until those parts were swapped.
Did you mess with the O2 sensor harness at all during the swap?
Without the smog pump hooked up, you should see codes 44 and 94 while running a KOER test. This is normal with no smog pump and is confirmation that the O2 sensors are in fact working.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 08:04:17 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;440573
Did you mess with the O2 sensor harness at all during the swap?
Without the smog pump hooked up, you should see codes 44 and 94 while running a KOER test. This is normal with no smog pump and is confirmation that the O2 sensors are in fact working.
If both o2 sensors were bad, he would remain in open-loop. Since the EEC will switch to closed-loop after 100-seconds on a warm start, which coincides with his remarks about it running well for about "90 seconds", the EEC believes at least one of his o2 sensors is good. It starts off rich, begins to slowly lean out the mixture of both banks until the o2 pegs full-lean, then slowly richens the mixture until the sensor shows richer than 14.7:1 again. If one o2 sensor is bad, it will perform the slow richening, then slow leaning-out a second again before marking one o2 sensor as failed, and begins to use the good one for fuel trims on both banks. I know it won't go into closed-loop without any sensor plugged in, but I haven't observed the AFR behaviors when this is happening so I can't comment on those.
The EEC will only compensate for a tune that's off by 12.1% lean or rich. Any more than that, the stock tune will not compensate further. Vinnie may have one, or both, banks outside of this adaptive range. A vacuum leak may make one bank reach its full 12% richening, and still be running lean. Reasons could be many. A KOER test will of course show a bad sensor. Slow/old o2 sensors shouldn't have too much of an effect on hitting the limit of the adaptive system.
Shooting for 14.7:1 in closed-loop but being one point leaner at 15.7:1 would cause the motor to run very poorly. Shooting for 11.6:1 in open-loop, but reaching 12.6:1 actual would make the NA motor feel like it has great power. All of this can typically be seen with a $150 wideband that Tom is suggesting. That's a good $200 in parts and bung installs that Vinnie may not have atm. Diagnosing things can get expensive. I hope we can help him narrow this down without buying hundreds/thousands of dollars in gauges and other parts/labor. They are good tools to have on hand though.
There are many other variables in how the EEC decides AFR, but this illustrates why open loop "could" run well while closed-loop had problems.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 08:19:33 PM
He can read the O2 sensors with a meter if he likes while driving the car. If he is stock he has a MAP. Is he modified in this regard. Once again he needs bacic trouble shooting and basic plug readings. Or at least a wide band to shoot this lean condition.
Is pin 49 grounded properly on the ECM. Normally it goes to the manifold near the DIZZY. Just a stretch but check it
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 08:28:15 PM
The cam specs are as follows....
0.573 in. 0.557 ex. lift at valve
215 in. 223 ex. duration
Didn't get to unplug the O2 sensors. Bloody dark after work. Hospital work can SUCK !!! Never know when you're ACTUALLY getting off work. Anyway, I'll do my best to do what I can. Can't get to a mechanic shop for quite some time due to my hours Monday through Friday. Not off any weekdays anymore. Everybody is closed when I go to work, closed when I get off.
On to the car. When I press the throttle, it hangs a wee bit, Not instant rpms. Like a quick pause then the revs. And it can take a second to come back down
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 08:29:16 PM
What is the LS numbers of the cam?? Cam sounds Ok for your ECM
You have an 88 so you should have a MAP. Unless CALIFORNIA. Is your California emissions???
Depending on it's configuration, it's either a MAP sensor ('86-'87 and '88 49-state) or it's a BP sensor ('88 CA only, '89+ 50-state). You should have a MAP. Once again someone posting wrong info. unless you are modified. Not sure if you are.
You need basic tests as i explained. Start with the basics > Compression fuel pressure leak down idf possible and a smoke test. Without the basics out of the way you are chasing balloons. Best thing is a wide band for AF numbers. Good luck my friend you are most likely Closed loop lean' Hang in buddy
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 08:43:26 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;440577
What is the LS numbers of the cam??
You have an 88 so you should have a MAP. Unless CALIFORNIA. Is your California emissions???
Depending on it's configuration, it's either a MAP sensor ('86-'87 and '88 49-state) or it's a BP sensor ('88 CA only, '89+ 50-state).
Vinnie has the 1988 Tbird in his signature, converted to mass air. That sensor is acting as BAP.
Vinnie, you left the vacuum hose off of the BAP sensor, correct? ;)
The throttle issue initially sounds like a vacuum leak also. It COULD be tps, but vacuum leaks will allow more air into the engine, making it take longer to spin up (get rid of the excessive lean condition), and less vacuum available to drag the motor down. The IAC will smooth out the dropping idles as it approaches idle though. Of course, a larger TB than the EEC expects will also make the TPS values matter less - the TB is already allowing in more air than the TPS would suggest it is. Mass air cares more about the MAF though.
My initial thought is again, vacuum leak. Still doesn't explain black smoke at lower base timing, but one thing at a time...
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 08:52:28 PM
SO! Seek yopu are talking Vacuum leak and said a wideband is not in the MIX. That is news to me. How would you explain that??? I am all ears because when tuning a Wide band is Mandatory. No tuner will tune without one PERIOD. How do you know where you AF is???. I did not know he was mass air. maybe he has a vacuum line connected to the MAP BARO. Got it he is MASS AIR. I never red his build EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is closed loop lean . All his symptoms lean twords a lean condition. Without a wide band he is chasing BALLOONS. He is modified and absolutely needs AF readings to fix this condition. Just me could of course be dead wrong SEEK But i do not think so Thoughts SEEK. By the way a to big Throttle body acts like a to big CARB. To much air and not enough engine. Sometimes people build in Troubles. Do we agree on that. Now i would suggest for whatever it is worth to do basic trouble shooting and checking with smoke for vacuum leaks. Do we agree on this YES NO???
If he has an adjustible fuel pressure regulator he can crank up the pressures and leave the vacuum line disconnected to see if he needs more fuel. simple tests like this cost nothing and can help if he does not have access to a dyne or an AF reader. If he cranks up the Fuel pressures he can determine if he is in fact LEAN. Also he can monitor or trick the O2 sensore rich and see what happens. modifying an engine especially a OBD1 ford is not for the novice. I spend endless hours on the dyne tuning the dinosures. naturally a Stand alone is the ticket ,But expensive, And of course he just might have more air then he needs for that engine and needs to down grade his TB. just a thought
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 09:19:56 PM
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/wideband-air-fuel-meter
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 13, 2014, 09:33:25 PM
A wideband o2 sensor is much more sophisticated than a narrowband sensor, and can be relied upon to be used as a tuning tool. Wideband sensors not only are a lot faster acting in the reading, but can tell you the exact a/f ratio that the motor is currently at. So instead of just telling the ECU that the motor is running rich, it will read a voltage that correlates to an actual value, like 11.2. One thing to remember with a wideband sensor is that it has a heating element that needs to be heated up before the sensor will be accurate in its readings. This usually only takes a few seconds, but just remember that for those first few seconds the gauge is not useful. Wideband sensors give the ECU the ability to tune exact A/F value’s to a tenth of a decimal instead of just richening and leaning the mixture till a stoic value is seen.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 13, 2014, 10:34:50 PM
Tom, lobe separation is 111.
I have mentioned it smokes a bit. Looks like a dark gray maybe. Hard to tell on the road, tinted windows, and traffic. That's only under hard acceleration. Not under normal driving at all. The throttle body is a 70mm.
SEEK, yes, Sir, I left the vacuum off ages ago when i converted it to Mass Air. I got my NOS Motorcraft TPS today. It'll go on (simply because the one I put on for now was over 20 years old), and it certainly can't hurt anything.
I appreciate all the time and effort you guys. More than you know. But no conflict please. I'm seeking ideas to figure this out, as simple as possible due to the lack of Mechanic shop equipment and such.
Tom, I wish I had the means that you do to build cars, mod them, check them out and the rest, but my reality isn't yours. It sucks, but it's true. Not one single penny from my paycheck ever goes into this car. Big limitations, so as you can see, I'm on a much smaller budget.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 13, 2014, 11:16:36 PM
I don't think Tom and I are looking for different things - I know he simply doesn't follow this build, or look into the details or this specific combination. FOr example, we don't even know which gaskets have been used - there are certain ones that seem to simply not seal well. I don't know how flat all the gasket mating surfaces are - as I mentioned in another thread, my new accufab throttle body came not-quite-flat at the IAC. Vinnie has stated what tools he has and the limited budget. Recommending a wideband for someone is pointless if they won't buy one.
Tom, can you provide suggestions to Vinnie that do NOT require buying various tools? Yes, a wideband would show a lot into what is going on (preferably a bung on both sides of the exhaust so you can check both banks). A wideband may show lean, but then you have to go to the next tool purchase to start narrowing it down. It doesn't matter to recommend something if it won't be purchased. What can Vinnie do with the car he as now, AS IT IS, without buying more tools? I'm all for buying the right tools for the job. I have way too many tools in my garage for a hobbyist, but I understand the usefulness of them all. Suggesting them in this thread I think is fine, but the purchases won't happen, so let it go. He has a compressor - he can check for leaks by using a hose barb attached to the line going to the vacuum tree, and the right threads/adapters for attaching to his compressor's hose. Feeling around for air escaping can help pinpoint a leak. Using something like baby powder, "poofed out of the container to create a floating dust" around all gaskets will show turbulence if there is a leak. I don't think you want to try more than 30psi - I don't know how much pressure the gaskets can take. There is no "pressure equivalent for 20inches of vacuum" - they are different measurements.
What else can Vinnie do as a "backyard mechanic" to help him pinpoint causes of various problems? That is the most help that we can get Vinnie in this thread. Until a budget allows or Vinnie finds some local friends with shop tools, talking about widebands, smoke machines, leakdown tests, or even a simple compression gauge is useless if there isn't currently a budget.
My suggestions: - Unplug o2's and see if problem goes away. If it does, we know it isn't something else completely unrelated. It gets us some data.
- To prevent damaging your factory harness, see if you can find a cheap o2 extension harness to install between the o2 and existing harness, and tap into the signal wires any way you can. Run wires, tapped into the o2 harness, into the cabin and use a voltmeter to see what voltage they read. I'm guessing you will see under 0.4V consistently on at least one bank when the issue starts to occur, in closed loop, indicating a lean AFR. If this is only one bank, it will help point to the next item to look for. 0.3V constantly would be a really bad lean AFR.
- Hook up compressor to vacuum hose going to vacuum tree and cap off throttle body. Pressurize intake and blow some type of powder around the outside of the motor. Watch for any weird movement of the powder, around egr blockoff, iac, tb, intake, injectors, upper to lower intake, lower intake on all sides (including front/rear where the rtv seals between the rubber and gasket, valve covers, and even the oil pan, front/rear seals, timing cover, oil level sensor, dipstick. The entire system, with the rocker arms on, should be pretty sealed. Leakage into the cylinders, past the rings, into the combustion chamber should still seal relatively well. You can back off all the rockers and disconnect the fill tube hose to get the crankcase out of the equation, if your pcv is good. You can also check the vacuum lines, although less likely to be a problem. Don't forget any plugs you have in the intake - mine are rtv'd on the threads. Basically, any place the motor could suck up unmetered air - even the oil dipstick, with all of its twists and turns, is still a small vacuum leak since it allows air in, up through the head's oil drain holes, through the fill tube to TB hose. Leaks down in the crankcase are unlikely to change the AFR any detectable amount though.
- Set timing to 10 degrees for further steps. I wouldn't try to fix a problem with the timing adjusted to fix a potentially different issue. You may also want to try this with the o2 sensor step above. See if one bank is going rich, and causing all the smoke at WOT
That's all I can suggest at the moment, for what we know, and what tools are available. Further data gathering is needed. Since this is a daily-driver, that makes testing things a bit more annoying. You can't simply test some things with parts removed, then come back later to test more/where you left off. The above can all be tested without making major changes to the vehicle - the car could be put back to where it was and driven in the matter of minutes (minus exhaust temperatures).
As you get a heavily modified engine, the need for a tune really does increase. Technically, this motor should be tuned. It is possible to ballpark the thing though, easily leaving up to 10% of the potential power still on the table. The computer never learns/adapts WOT fuel trims, since the o2's are always pegged rich. A wideband and tune is needed for that. Accurate mass air (basically, aftermarket accuracy is rarely good) readings also matter a lot (but not for this closed-loop issue). This is also why I am going Lightning 90mm sensor - not a high-flowing meter for its housing size, but it has good accuracy (when plumbed in correctly).
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on November 14, 2014, 03:53:09 AM
Seek, I was wondering if perhaps his O2 sensors were switched and now reading g the wrong banks.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Haystack on November 14, 2014, 04:06:03 AM
Codes. Engine balance test.
Takes you longer to pour your coffee at 7-11 everyday. I once had to buy a test light and paper clips. Cost me just over $2. If your check engine light works, you only need the paper clip.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on November 14, 2014, 05:41:13 AM
I have a question. What have you done in the realm of tuning since you got your new build going? I know you're MAF converted, on 24's and probably have a calibrated meter, but beyond that, anything? I ask because I've been researching some minor driveablility issues with MY new build, and I've determined that running a calibrated MAF is throwing off the load calculation, and making it impossible for the PCM to derive correct timing advance. I have 30lb/hr injectors, A9P, and a calibrated 76mm. I'm getting a Moates Quarterhorse between now and spring so that I can compensate for the injectors in the PCM instead of the MAF, and not have these odd issues. Also, what has your new build got for a compression ratio? Mine is almost 11:1, so timing advance issues don't go unnoticed.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: TOM Renzo on November 14, 2014, 06:57:07 AM
Bottom line here is when mods are done especially on a old fashioned slow OBD1 system thisgs get ugly rather fast. Speed density would be where i would go. Vinny if you were close by i would help you in a heart beat allow you run of the shop and any thing yopu would need in that reguard. I have gotten to like you guys a hell of a lot and you are like a distant family. but you have an issue and we all are trying to help from a laptop. So maybe get some carb clean and be careful spraying it around the intake to look for leaks. Are you sure the upper has it's vacuum holes plugged properly. I had one some years back where the guy used one of those black vacuum caps and it blew off. If you have a sharp ear when shutting down the engine you can sometimes hear a vacuum leak distinctly. Your 111 CL is fine. With that you have to increase fuel pressure and see if you are closed loop lean. We all seem to be leaning to that. OR disconnect both O2 sensors and use a simulator on the ECM side and feed 1.0 volts to the ecm constantly and see if the ecm responds to the richer mixture. I made 2 O2 simulators years ago to do this. All that is needed is a D cell and a circuit to vary the voltage output from O-1Volt Clip it on to the O2 wire going to the ecm dial in a specific voltage lets say .8 drive the car and see the difference. If it does not change the ECM is out of range and most likely needs a tune. Good luck my friend. You can have a good Balance test with low compression stacks . No one uses balance anymore. But it is a good thing to know. I am willing to bet his balance test is OK. That is if he adjusted the valves correctly??? Not a bad idea but i think that engine is LEAN. Popping and flattening out. Why would it run fine cold. Simple that is when the ECM richens up everything
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 14, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
I think the engine is lean as well. After work tonight I'll see what I can do. Sometimes I'm off at 5:30, sometimes much later, depending on patient load. I gotta tell you, after having three days off a year for nearly three years, five 10 to 12 hour days sucks.
I did the carb cleaner vacuum leak check. No dice. BUT, I still think there may be a leak.
As far as rocker adjustment, here's how I did it....multiple times....
When the exhaust valve started to open, I set the intake rocker to zero lash, then, gave it 1/2 turn and locked it.
After the Intake valve opened, and the rocker was going back up, when it's a hair from being back up all the way, I adjusted the exhaust rocker....zero lash, then 1/2 turn and lock it.
It's Friday, so I'm off the weekend. I WILL have a balance test and run codes again (with the KOEO and KOER). Hopefully I can get something done after work today.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 14, 2014, 10:49:29 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;440588
Seek, I was wondering if perhaps his O2 sensors were switched and now reading g the wrong banks.
Unless he is getting lucky in reaching closed loop each time he fires up the motor, I doubt it! I had this issue years back. I had no idea what was going on, and neither did Jeff at All Ford Performance. Datalogging immediately showed the problem - crossed o2 wires. The EEC would see one bank going lean and try to richen it up, and vice versa. Since it would keep dumping fuel into one, and pulling fuel from the other, one bank would get really rich, and one really lean. When the EEC didn't see any switching, it blocked the o2 sensors and simply ran open-loop. No check engine light or code was thrown...
I had ONE time where it managed to go closed-loop, on a drive to Canada. My fuel economy was up, and I had no idea why. Somehow, with miraculous timing of events with a hot engine after fuel fillup, one bank had a good-enough signal at the right time, and it used that o2 to manage both banks. I wasn't datalogging then, but this was exactly how the motor behaved. Of course, on the next engine restart, the o2's failed to provide the expected signals again. Later, not even moving the o2 grounds, using my long-wire o2's and simply crossing the wires over the top of the bellhousing, I swapped the o2 plugs around and gained my fuel economy back. Other than when the car was attempting to get the o2 sensors to work after startup, it ran great since the car ran in the richer open-loop all the time. Hell, I have the datalogs around here somewhere.
The EEC handles issues in interesting ways - it simple doesn't handle them. Try having a MAF curve that isn't perfectly a curve - the EEC freaks out when it reaches that part of the MAF table and dumps fuel into the motor at 100% injector duty cycle. This only appeared as I was adjusting for one spot in the curve, from data obtained while logging. The curve went up, slightly down, and continued slightly up. Instead of interpolating data like any sane software application would, it just went full 100% injector duty cycle when it reached this little drop in the MAF curve. The computer in these cars is pretty dumb - you'd think it would just try to internally switch o2 sensor calculations if it sees a signal problem.
If Vinnie's issue persists for more than 10-minutes after a cold start, I can't see it being crossed o2 sensors. The EEC would drop into open-loop and run well again (with a 10-20% hit to fuel economy).
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 14, 2014, 04:27:26 PM
Upon starting this morning, and yesterday morning, the idle was pretty high, stayed that way for longer than I'd think is right, then back down. Started it, it went straight to about 2100 rpms, hung there for a few seconds, then came back down. Crazy.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: V8Demon on November 14, 2014, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: Seek;440597
Unless he is getting lucky in reaching closed loop each time he fires up the motor, I doubt it! I had this issue years back. I had no idea what was going on, and neither did Jeff at All Ford Performance. Datalogging immediately showed the problem - crossed o2 wires. The EEC would see one bank going lean and try to richen it up, and vice versa. Since it would keep dumping fuel into one, and pulling fuel from the other, one bank would get really rich, and one really lean. When the EEC didn't see any switching, it blocked the o2 sensors and simply ran open-loop. No check engine light or code was thrown...
I had ONE time where it managed to go closed-loop, on a drive to Canada. My fuel economy was up, and I had no idea why. Somehow, with miraculous timing of events with a hot engine after fuel fillup, one bank had a good-enough signal at the right time, and it used that o2 to manage both banks. I wasn't datalogging then, but this was exactly how the motor behaved. Of course, on the next engine restart, the o2's failed to provide the expected signals again. Later, not even moving the o2 grounds, using my long-wire o2's and simply crossing the wires over the top of the bellhousing, I swapped the o2 plugs around and gained my fuel economy back. Other than when the car was attempting to get the o2 sensors to work after startup, it ran great since the car ran in the richer open-loop all the time. Hell, I have the datalogs around here somewhere.
The EEC handles issues in interesting ways - it simple doesn't handle them. Try having a MAF curve that isn't perfectly a curve - the EEC freaks out when it reaches that part of the MAF table and dumps fuel into the motor at 100% injector duty cycle. This only appeared as I was adjusting for one spot in the curve, from data obtained while logging. The curve went up, slightly down, and continued slightly up. Instead of interpolating data like any sane software application would, it just went full 100% injector duty cycle when it reached this little drop in the MAF curve. The computer in these cars is pretty dumb - you'd think it would just try to internally switch o2 sensor calculations if it sees a signal problem.
If Vinnie's issue persists for more than 10-minutes after a cold start, I can't see it being crossed o2 sensors. The EEC would drop into open-loop and run well again (with a 10-20% hit to fuel economy).
I too had my O2 sensors crossed to the wrong banks once. No codes as well. Would star up fine, get choppy for a bit, the smooth right out. I took me quite some time to diagnose as my gas mileage was pretty good. 20 + on the highway. Car was dialed in pretty well.
Bottom line codes are needed in KOER as well as KOEO and continuous memory.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 14, 2014, 05:18:48 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;440599
I too had my O2 sensors crossed to the wrong banks once. No codes as well. Would star up fine, get choppy for a bit, the smooth right out. I took me quite some time to diagnose as my gas mileage was pretty good. 20 + on the highway. Car was dialed in pretty well.
Bottom line codes are needed in KOER as well as KOEO and continuous memory.
My fuel economy was in the 22-24 range on the highway, when it should have been around 30mpg. Closer to 20% impact.
Yeah, that choppiness is the banks going lean/rich as the EEC begins to go into closed loop. After the sensors fail to read as the EEC expects, it goes back into open-loop. My AFR's looked alright, but don't remember the specifics as it was probably 5 years ago. Weird that it doesn't throw codes though! These EECs work well for what they are, but they are pretty basic.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 14, 2014, 05:26:31 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;440598
Upon starting this morning, and yesterday morning, the idle was pretty high, stayed that way for longer than I'd think is right, then back down. Started it, it went straight to about 2100 rpms, hung there for a few seconds, then came back down. Crazy.
Vacuum leak + richer mixture on cold start will allow the motor to rev higher. Colder Fall/Winter air just adds to the amount of oxygen entering the engine. Besides a bad IAC, nothing else can do this - the motor can't rev without sufficient air AND fuel. I'm going to ignore the cruise control and assume the TB is closed on engine-start. You will have to find the sources of leaks in some way. I wouldn't be surprised if you have more than one vacuum leak. Easy with specialized tools, a bit more difficult to find without. I still have 2 vacuum leaks to resolve when time allows (of both mine and an aluminum welder's). I can still idle at under 600rpms with these two vacuum leaks. AFR looks fine, but obviously there is insufficient fuel due to these leaks.
Anyone have any other tips that Vinnie can use to chase vacuum leaks? Spraying around gaskets/hoses only works for some, and it isn't as effective as other tests. I'm just curious what we can recommend to him for this weekend. I'm sure Vinnie would LOVE to get this issue resolved during the next couple days. It's too bad that we can't simply bolt on some short-runner gt40 upper intake to allow full access to both sides of the motor, while the intake is still mounted and engine runs. All the stuff hiding under the plenum is harder to troubleshoot.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 14, 2014, 05:55:54 PM
A few other ideas mixed in:
Unplug a vacuum hose while engine is running on cold-start (rich fuel trims being commanded by EEC). Doing this, if the engine revs up a lot, it has enough extra fuel to compensate for the self-induced vacuum leak. If this is the case, then there is likely no leak, or a very small one. If the rpm's barely go up, remain the same, or drop, then the extra fuel from the cold-start is already being burned with air coming in from another location - there is little or no extra fuel remaining to burn the additional air coming in from the induced vacuum leak.
Unplug and plug-off vacuum lines for non-essential items such as HVAC. See if issue persists. Also disconnect/plug EGR, charcoal canister, and vacuum tree if desired. Do not remove fuel pressure, PCV, or oil fill tube to throttle-body hoses.
Verify that there is no air leaking in between the throttle body and mass air sensor. Clamp the intake tube on tight.
Spray carb cleaner or starting fluid around gaskets and hoses - spray a lot at the EGR, IAC, TB and gaskets, upper to lower intake gasket, PCV. Slowly work around any existing houses, covering all sides of each hose. If a leak is found, the engine should smooth out and rpm's increase a little. This should not be a quick process.
Use a spray water bottle and spray around gaskets/hoses as above. Safer than combustable sprays. You can use a lot more without leaving residue everywhere.
I would recommend the following ONLY if you know there is no MAJOR leak (big hole from missing injector, unplugged hose, etc). Small amounts of water will be fine. Use a water hose to flood top of lower intake - KEEP AWAY FROM THROTTLE BODY/prevent hydrolocking the engine with a lot of water. See if idle changes when water is flowing from front to rear of intake. If a leak is found, the motor may begin to stumble as the small amounts of water mist enters the combustion chambers. The water helps pinpoint leaks from a cracked or improperly installed lower intake gasket. The water stream is really helpful under the plenum where you can't get carb spray to reach. This can also test the injector orings, since the flood of water will not allow additional air to enter. Pananoid me, keep this away from a hot exhaust. Cold water on hot manifolds "could" cause problems, but likely not a problem with headers. This step made me find my lower intake gaskets that were cracked on both sides of the motor between cylinders 1,2 and 5,6, letting in a straight-line of air into 4 cylinders. Low mileage Felpro gaskets, but they were junk. I went with the much more expensive gaskets after that.
Use air compressor to pressurize intake from vacuum tree hose. Regulate pressure to 30psi. Listen for leaks/whistles, especially with a stethoscope. Any type of smoke/powder outside the engine will show where tubulent air is moving around/escaping. This is also a handy thing to use for testing seal leaks around doors, windows, etc. Pressurize an enclosure and use floating particulate (smoke, fog, light-weight powder) to see airflow movement.
That's my updated list of things to check for vacuum leaks, without needing access to various tools.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 14, 2014, 09:11:57 PM
Hi guys. Just got home. Loooooong day today. As far as vacuum leaks, I'm just going to swap the gaskets. Easy to do, and it'll be done. I'm also going to replace the hoses under the upper intake. The rest have been changed. I will try to have codes tomorrow. Stay tuned for that. Time used to be easy to get, now, it's a luxery.They will be done this weekend, hopefully tomorrow, no matter what.
Good ideas on the leak hunting. I will do that.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: jandmmustangs on November 14, 2014, 09:13:35 PM
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 14, 2014, 10:09:59 PM
I read that whole thread. Now I am convinced I have a vacuum leak...........
..........well, that's what I'm telling myself for now to make myself feel better. LOL.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 15, 2014, 08:13:20 AM
Swapping gaskets doesn't mean it'll solve a vacuum leak in a leaking spot. You need to verify that there is a leak, and then verify afterward that it was actually fixed.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 15, 2014, 08:35:04 AM
I agree. I'm going to look deeper into the smoke machine in just a bit.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Aerocoupe on November 15, 2014, 12:29:15 PM
I want to see the one Vinnie builds...something tells me he will polish it. You are going to have to post pictures man!
Darren
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 15, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
LOL. That's funny. I'll start on it all in a bit. Grandson is here with me while his momma and my sweetie go shopping. They gotta come home eventually.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Masejoer on November 17, 2014, 11:10:05 AM
So what did you find, Vinnie?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on November 17, 2014, 11:10:45 AM
Sorry, nothing. it started snowing. Of course.
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: Chrome on December 28, 2014, 10:06:12 PM
Updates?
Title: Rocker adjustment....
Post by: vinnietbird on January 08, 2015, 09:29:55 PM
Sorry guys. I got a different position at work, and have no time. It WAS running pretty fair. I swapped the intake gaskets, and ECM and MAF. Now, a whole new problem. I'm really thinking about going to a carb this year. Had about all I can stand of this. It never stops. Always something.