Im in the final stages of the 4 eye swap on my 87 turbo coupe. The last thing I need to do is mate the 86 wiring from the lights to the 87 harness in the car. I have the battery and battery tray out and found the connector for the harness. It looks like they switched the male and female connectors around over the years. I was wondering if someone could find me a diagram for the headlamps for an 86 and an 87 so I can be sure everything is wired correctly? Appreciate it!
Look at the links in my sig. I have EVTMs there.
Thank you that has been very helpful! I now have 2 more questions. The first is there is a green wire with a pink stripe that is coming from the car that was snipped before I started working on it and I have a green/pink wire on the 86 harness. I cant seem to find it on the diagram, should this wire be hooked up? The only issue Im having is the bright lights wont stay on which leads me to my next question. When I pull back on the highbeam switch all 4 headlamps light up and the highbeam indicator light on the dash comes on, but they go off as soon I release the switch and the highbeam indicator light goes out. What do you think could be the culprit there?
Hi beams are turned on only by a multi function switch (under the steering wheel). There are no relays used for headlamps (except "flash to pass" relay). Yellow wire then changes color to LG/BK and is being split in C234 to high beam indicator and high beam filaments. So if your indicator is ON, your high beams should be too.
BTW, did you do some modification to your car's wiring earlier, or not? Especially in the interior.
No modifications inside the car. I went back to work on it again tonight. I had the alternator and the battery tested and both tested just fine. However, the car is still showing around 12.8 volts at idle. When you jump the RPM up it will go to a little over 13. The highbeam indicator on the dash is on all the time and when I turn the highbeams on and off the outside lights get softer/brighter. The wiring from the cars 87 harness matched up perfectly with the colors from the 86 harness so Im thinking everything should be wired correctly. The only issue Im having is the very low voltage and the highbeams not working correctly. Im afraid to drive the car more than around the block as the voltage has dropped so low it has killed the car and not been able to restart without a jump.
Even if I unplug the headlamp harness connector underneath the battery tray the car still shows very low voltage. The two ground wires that go to the core support are grounded correctly, could it be Im having a grounding issue somewhere else on the car. There was a large black wire coming from the 86 harness that changes to a large yellow wire (the splice doesnt look factory) that I connected to the ground that go to the inner fender wall right next to the started solenoid. I didnt see anything from the 87 harness that would compare to it. Im no electrical guru so I hope I have not bitten off more than I can chew. The annoying thing is the headlights (minus the brights) blinkers, and corner lights all work right. That leads me to believe the harnesses have been mated from the 87 and 86 correctly.
Does the engine run?? If so what is the charging rate?? And is it the same as the voltage you are talking about?? Another words is the battery voltage the same as your headlight voltage!
What about engine ground strap? Is it tight enough?
Those are both good questions. Tom, I will report back with numbers next time I am near the car again. Hopefully that will be tomorrow. Did the 5L mustangs ground to the motor mounts? The negative cable seems to run to the center of the engine and then down toward the ground so Ill have to find out where that is going. The only thing that throws me off is that this problem started right after swapping the front clips.... but all I have changed is the headlight wiring. Wouldnt it be a coincidence if it was unrelated to the swap.
Oh and to answer your question yes the engine will run. The problem is that with too many accesories on it draws that battery down and will slowly kill the car. Id like to see over 13 at idle, however Im barely over 12 most of the time unless you increase the engine RPM.
Your flash to pass is working and it sounds like you have the "Automatic Headlight Dimmer" feature. The dimmer relay is not picking (energizing) so it stays on low beam. Make sure the dimmer thumb wheel is all the way off (clicked). This will take the photocell amplifier out of the picture.
87 EVTM pages 84 & 85.
You hit the nail on the head softtouch. I did have a chance to work on the car again today. I checked all my grounds and everything came up good. I started turning off things and saw that with nothing on I had right around 14 volts. Since the car has electric fans Im going to need a higher amp alternator. Right now the car is using a 75 amp and the highest advanced or autozone can get me is an 80 amp. Will that be enough to compensate? I have been searching online for a higher output replacement but they all seem to be single wire alternators? Is there a bolt on and go 100 or better amp alternator? BTW The car has an 88 mustang 5.0 if that makes a difference.
I know everyone is going to say go 3G and I wouldnt mind going that route, but I have not found a good write up on the swap. Is there someone here would wouldnt mind walking me through it, or a thread that explains the process? BTW I appreciate the help guys.
I have posted numerous times on this conversion. It is simple and so dam easy. Do it and i will talk you through it. Look back on electrical and you will see how i do it. By the way your alternator is shot. Because if it can not charge properly with accessories on it clearly has an issue. A 75A alternator is guite big in fact and should run that car with no issues whatsoever. I think the stock TC came with an 85A and that is quite sufficient for the vehicle and it has tuns of electrical loads, Go to what i posted bellow and i have an alternator layed out with proper wiring. Just do it that way if you want to up date to a bigger unit
Wiring issue between alt and battery...88 TC..help
Wire the alt like this. Only one wire from the original harness needed and that is the one from KEY BATTERY. OR DASH LIGHT to I terminal. And of course the heavy charge lead from the battery or starter solenoid. Everything else is wired as bellow
(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/DSCF2401_zps202a28e0.jpg) (http://s740.photobucket.com/user/proguns/media/DSCF2401_zps202a28e0.jpg.html)
its a sticky in Greatest hits section,,, with a drawing
or here> http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?13641-3g-install-**go-directly-to-post-50-for-drawing
or in my diy link below
first task is to verify your I and S terminals are swapped, making your regulator plug / pin out appear like the 5.0 drawing you see in post 50 of the above link *and* as tom has shown in his photo.
if your some reason your factory Ammeter is not working, go to my diy link to convert the gauge to a volt meter,, but tell us If your factory ammeter is non-functional.
until someone else chimes in with a converted 2.3L 3g upgrade complete with no issues, proceed with kid gloves.
Jay the prints you posted are exactly the same as i have posted. Only more complicated. Absolutely no difference if the regulator A punching has constant battery or switched battery for regulator power up; Once again you are over complicating a simple wiring issue. To prove my point how do you think ONE WIRE ALTERNATORS ARE WIRED just saying
The shunt is because the TC has an AMMETER!!!!!!!!!!! The AMMETER is a micro voltmeter and needs a shunt to work as an ammeter. All ammeters are shunted. They never work anyway on the TC. That is anyway other than on my car!!!!! If you want the AMMETER to work you need to wire it in parallel that is the shunt across the meter from a point that monitors all current draws from and to the battery. . This way the ammeter actually a micro volt meter can sense current draw or charging voltage. The reason the factory ammeter is bad is because the shunt is in series with the wrong terminal that does not sense loads properly . A voltmeter is always better because alternators are not current regulated they are VOLTAGE REGULATED. As you point out a voltmeter is always better to monitor a charging system. And your mod on that is a very good one. By the way you can also install a gen light very easily that i recommend. The light always gets your attention immediately Have a great day.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Chrome+Ford+200+Amp+1+Wire+3G+Large+Case+Alternator
the drawings are to assist in the user to compare the Before and After **to include** some of the existing wiring of the fuse links ect... it lets someone see downstream and compare their harness to the alternator. it was a request we all felt at the time was a good idea to include wiring you are not going to cut or handle but "see" how everything is connected , so therefore it does have some top heavy appearances.
as your picture shows,,,, your photo is a 2.3L specific wiring layout and is not to be used for the 5.0L. Your photo swaps the I and S terminals correctly for this unique engine harness.
Ok, my wiring was a bit different than I expected to see. I didnt have a white/black at all. I ended up running a new wire from the post on the alt to the positive battery post, and used the green and yellow wires on the D plug to head back to the car. Then I snipped the S wire, which was solid black and jumped that over to the stator. I checked everything over and started the car. Its still a bit weak at idle but I think that is because the pulley on the new alt is noticeably bigger. Ill prob swap that out to a smaller pulley. Otherwise all was well I could drive the car with the lights and electric fans on without the voltage dropping. The other thing I need to do is wire in a 125 A fuse between the alt and battery. If I missed something let me know.
re-looking at this whole thread,,
your chassis harness is an 87TC from what you mention.
your saying on your 87 harness there is no white black on the D connector for the alternator?
post your D connector colors exactly as they are please, I think this is note worthy.,,,, I can collect all the TC peoples input and edit post 50 of the 3G sticky inside the greatest hits section, add specific TC color wires. Seems to me the TCs had enough differences to document. Most who are 3.8 or 5.0 transition the 3g in without any major hang ups... not saying yours was, its just not a good idea to let these real time discoveries go undocumented.
I am loosing my mind the way you are complicating this swap JAY. Once again look at how i do it then do it no matter what year what car what planet the alternator is on. All it needs is to be hooked up as i posted. and go for a drive. Like i said you do not even need to increase the wiring to the solenoid. have a great weekend guys
Jay seriously how do you think the guy at the auto store checks an alternator on the machine> Does he have a TURBO COUPE SETTING ON IT. Common think this out more seriously and look at how i do it. Clean neat simple and it works. No need for all that foolishness and wiring nightmare.
The white/black wire from the stator output to the S on the regulator is only used with the dash warning light. Your car has an ammeter and no warning light.
If you had followed the black wire you snipped back into the harness you would have found it didn't go anywhere. It just dead ends.
Jumping the stator output to the regulator S makes the instructions work for any car. In your case, it doesn't do anything for you but it doesn't hurt anything either.
I remember reading in a Ford shop manual the recommended way to disconnect the cable is to pull on the wires.
I think they put the black wire in there to spread the stress of doing that across 3 wires instead of just 2.
Hope that helps clear up any confusion.
Once again this is CRAZY. Maybe i am missing something here. But here we go.
S terminal is needed to provide the regulator with charge info. Absolutely mandatory with or without a light or gauge
A terminal gets un-switched Battery from anywhere in the car. Best place is heavy charge lug on the unit
I terminal is used for the indicator lamp or goes to Start and run Key battery. Finished Done case closed. makes no difference what car it is in what engine is turning it or weather it has a light or gauge. Hope this clears it up
I am going to have to disagree with you on this Tom.
Notice that in the 87 2.3 diagram below that the stator output on the alternator is not used. The regulator S terminal has a wire that goes nowhere.
Ever wonder why the engineers that design the thing never run the reg A terminal wire directly to the alternator output?
The regulator controls the field current to keep the voltage it "sees" on the A terminal at the regulated voltage (14.5v). They like to sense this voltage closer to the load.
You can argue whether it makes a nickel's worth of difference or not in this application. It would be more important if the load was 50 feet from the alternator instead 1 foot. But for what it is worth, that's why they do it.
Voltage on the regulator I terminal turns on the regulator through the "indicator switch" in the regulator.
Voltage on the regulator S terminal turns on the regulator (or keeps it on if it is already on) and opens the indicator switch.
With a warning light, keyed voltage is through the light to the I terminal, through the indicator switch to turn on the regulator.
When the alternator is up and running, stator voltage on the S terminal opens the indicator switch and takes over keeping the regulator turned on. The indicator switch opening turns off the warning light.
If you look at the 86 2.3 wiring you will see that they run the keyed voltage to the regulator S terminal and leave the I terminal open.
It is these variations from year to year and differences between turbo and non turbo that that causes confusion.
87 2.3 turbo diagram:
If you do not believe me read this then i will post where it came from. Once again you and JAY are complicating this for absolutely no reason. I have done most likely 100 or more of these conversions in every conceivable Ford vehicle and also trucks. Have a great evening guys
Even though this is an old thread others may need it...
Yes, you need a heavy cable (6GA or better) from alt to solenoid
S (BLK/WHT) Goes to the spade on the alternator (stator)
A (Yellow) Jumps to the Big Bolt on the Alternator (B+ or Batt)
I (Lt.Grn/Red) 12V Switched/Ignition gen indicator lamp in the dash
The fact that a standard 60amp alt melts two 10 guage wires means the stock power wire should be upgraded. I see no reason to reused wiring with a new alt that was subpar with less then half the amprage.
Tom; Did you even read what I posted?
Haystacks it is not the wires that melt it is the plug arrangement and the spade terminals. Because the replacement alternator that replaces that unit comes with a electrical eye and a bolt and stud mount for the heavy battery cable and in fact uses the stock wiring that is more than adequate even gor an update. Once again an alternator does not put out full power 100% of the time. I have explained this numerous times before. The factory wire is adequate . I have converted at least a 100 ford vehicles over the years. have a great evening guys
tom, quick question..............
in your photo you show,,,,, and I mean only you photo............
are you saying this mod works on all fords no matter what?
if yes.. tell us more.
tell us what year cars, engines ect.
if your saying this D connector wire arrangement works on 5.8L, 5.0L 3.8L, 4.6L, 2.3L from 1983 up to (insert year here), then tell us.
I am open to new experiences for sure....
Since my car was swapped im not sure its a good idea to use as an example for others. Like I said the wiring was different than I expected to find for an 87. On a side note I did drive the car about 150 miles sunday and it never gave me any issue. I still have to swap to the smaller pulley when it arrives, then I will see how the car reacts with all the accessories on at idle. It felt really good to be behind the wheel again, hear the motor, and pick my own gears!
Jay the alternator does not care what car it is on what device it is wired to or for that matter it does not even have to be on a car. I have seen them on WOOD CHIPPERS. As the matter of fact i have converted many a Wood chipper Fork lifts and refrigeration units log splitter cement mixer large generators with either Ford or GM alternators. So as i said the 3G needs only One wire to actually work just as GM and even Chrysler units. As long as the regulator is powered up with 12V and that is punching A which serves 2 purposes. It allows a minute amount of current to flow through the regulator to stabilize the regulator when the car is not running and the key is in your pocket. And it powers it up. The regulator is powered up from punching A. It is an electronic circuit and needs power. The S terminal is used to control the alternator output or how much it should charge. The I terminal wakes up the regulator and commands the electronics to start charging. By putting key run battery or a lamp on it in series with the key and a parallel resistance across the lamp. The resister increases the charge rate. Example GM diesels used to have 2 lamps in parallel. One on the dash and one behind the dash in a sealed capsule. The resister is used in case the lamp goes open or blows out. This provides a battery signal so the alt will still charge if the lamp is out. Some chevies do not have them and when it blows the alternator will not charge unless it is reved above 4000 RPM'S. (Regulator needs light off voltage) Big recall in the late seventies because the lead was eliminated on some models. It also doubles as the Indicator lamp on the dash. How that works is simple There is battery on one side of the lamp from the ignition switch the I terminal provides a ground before it starts charging after it sees a stator voltage. Then it puts the light out by applying battery to the lamp lead. battery on both sides of the lamp it wont light. That is why sometimes when a regulator or stator diode goes bad the lamp will glow dimly. I have also rebuilt numerous units in he old days before commercially rebuilt units were available. I actually made a BENCH to test them off the car. Just as any re-builder does when re manufacturing or rebuilding alternators. have a great day guys
NOTE the wiring is not different than any other hook up. What is different is how the unit is wired and the complications done because people do not know how they work. And use the factory harness to pick up all required leads, NOT NECESSARY. Other than indicator lamp lead for dash light. Once again how do you think ONE WIRE ALTERNATORS WORK. Everything is wired INTERNALLY. Also on cars like limousines that have 3G alternators a slave relay is used for isolation. Some are done with relays not diodes. The S terminal controls the relays winding. If the car is not running the relay drops out the cranking battery. When the relay sees battery from the S terminal alt putting out it closes it and charges both.
Note the 3G is an external regulator unit that is why it has the extra 2 leads A&S. GM for example only has 2 leads (heavy battery and I lead for the lamp)because the A&S are internally wired to the regulator. Ford 3G is not an internal regulator and there fore requires external hook up of those leads. For non complicated change overs just use a ONE wire 3 g on a TC and call it a DAY
Tom, Please explain how the regulator S terminal is controlling the alternator output in the 87 turbo diagram below.
Here we go. Right from FORD I think this should be the end of this discussion.
https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0LEV0c8GStUEtkAAVpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0MWoxNW52BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1NNRTM5OV8x?p=show+a+ford+3G+alternator+wiring+diagram&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dshow%2Ba%2Bford%2B3G%2Balternator%2Bwiring%2Bdiagram%26type%3DA111US679%26fr%3Dmcafee&w=453&h=441&imgurl=www.fordtruckclub.net%2Fforum%2Fphotopost%2Ffiles%2F1%2F5%2F2%2F0%2F3ginstall.jpg&size=48KB&name=3ginstall.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fordtruckclub.net%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D6803&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fordtruckclub.net%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D6803&type=&no=1&tt=115&oid=c089695d0db0024688fd35ed466e492c&tit=Headlight+Relays+and+3g+alternator%2C+The+Swap&sigr=11okbji9m&sigi=121nii68i&sign=10dl50qdc&sigt=103ooeh2o&sigb=13crv7p31&fr=mcafee
I'm confused, how does this answer softtouch's question? What is the S wire doing in the EVTM diagram?
I used bullet plug connectors rated for 50amps continous load on my cars alt when I replaced it with a stock replacement. It melted two of the three. There is no way a 130amp alt is fine with a single 10 guage wire. I have model air plane batteries that put out 62 amps peak for 15 seconds. The come with 10 guage wire and are only 3" long. The connectors are rated for 75 amps and I burn them up too.
If you need to upgrade from a stock alt, you need to upgrade wire as well.
Btw, my most powerful model airplane motor peaks at 52 amps... the ones I burn battery connectors up with are only 20-30 amps
A car is not a model plane. MAN this is ridiculous. Once again think about what you are saying 2 10,Amp wires in parallel. = a number 8 AWG
For the final time read this direct from Powerhouse
Four wires connect the alternator to the rest of the charging system.
•
B is the alternator output wire that supplies current to the battery.
•
IG is the ignition input that turns on the alternator/regulator assembly.
•
S is used by the regulator to monitor charging voltage at the battery.
•
L is the wire the regulator uses to ground the charge warning lamp
@ softtuch clearly that print is wrong. So using the print you posted one of the 3 Phase legs goes NOWHERE. That is IMPOSSIBLE!!!! If the print is correct that alternator would put out only 2/3 of its capability. One phase missing . HELLOW!! Have a great night folks. Thanks tom
Leese naville explination
Alternator Wiring Instruction
On most heavy trucks you will find one, two or three wires going to the alternator.
Below we will explain how to identify these wires and connect the alternator to your
vehicle.
One wire:
A jumper wire is supplied to connect the
alternator (S) terminal to the (B+) terminal.
Refer to Fig 1 for proper wiring. If vehicle has an
ignition wire, it does not need to be connected
to the alternator. Insulate and secure to prevent
shorting.
Two wire:
Alternators that have two wires
connected to them are self excite. The two wires
connected to the alternators are the positive and
negative cables. When connecting our alternators
use Fig 2 to properly connect these alternators. A
jumper wire is supplied to connect the alternator
(S) terminal to the (B+) terminal.
For your reading pleasure.
Tom, I understand what you are saying, seriously I do but I simply am more interested in your success using your "one size fits all" wiring application.
your picture of the alternator & pig tails is not suitable for the 2.3, 3.8 and 5.0 as far as we know and from my side of the fence, you are doing it the same on all fords.
Everyone else must have a reason for doing it different for the 2.3L. so I ask again, does your pigtail photograph apply to all 3 mid 80's ford engines?
to softtouch's question, and his comments I agree and the diagram he posted is spot on for accuracy "as-engineered" "as-built" by ford.
ok,, I get it now,, I think I just found the problem with the thread.
tom,
You are basing your installation on the premise that we must know that you "are not" using the oem harness and that you are doing home run wiring outside of the factory supplied wiring when convenient or applicable to your project.
Having said that, I can take your word for it, I have not taken a 3g down that path yet so if it works like your doing it then I can understand why you stick with what you know.
We are discussing the integration of a 3G "using the oem harness and to include upgrade of the charge lead+fuse.
care to comment on this?,, it may clear up what you are explaining because this is a very simple swap I agree, but I still say the 2.3 is a fickle that each person should refer our posted instructions in the Greatest hits section if they want to use their factory wiring.
If they decided to jump around factory wiring then that is outside the scope of this topic.