What aluminum/iron heads (better than E7s) work with these flat top pistons? I read that GT40s won't work or that you have to carve reliefs into the pistons or change them out. I've also read that porting E7s is waste of money. Do any of the aftermarket heads work right out of the box? My goal is 300 HPRW. On Ebay, the seller of those pro comp heads says they will work but if he's just trying to make a sale and I'm stuck with $600 door stops, I will not be happy.
thanks.
keep in mind, there is a lot more to factor in when worrying about if your valves will hit. cam and rocker ratio play an important part in this too. and as far as pro comps go, just pass. i bought some years ago and never installed them once i read all the horror stories. there's a lot of problems with them, i believe the valve guides falling out were their biggest problem.
Darn, thought I could get a decent set of aluminum heads for $600. I have read some bad things too but nothing specific. Maybe buy them without valves and springs and have those put in by a pro shop? I have an standard HO cam to replace my SO cam. What is a safe combination? HO cam + 1.7 rockers + ? aluminum heads
or E303 cam + 1.6 rockers + ? aluminum heads?
Trickflow heads.
Yeah, like will the spark plug boss on my GT40P headshiznit the piston crowns if I have domes? (yes, ask me how I know)
This is what Ive heard too.
Any high port head basically relocates the valves/angles.
back in the sleazy board days, everyone ran trickflow high ports with any cam they wanted without kissing a valve.
Valve reliefs are a simple thing to achieve. Dont let that be the determining factor. Basically the very poor flow of a ford head is its issues. So if you have to cut in EYEBROWS and you will have to to achieve your goal. Do it and then you wont have to worry. Relocating ford valves require piston machining or better known as eyebrows cut in to the pistons. CPR recommends it with all there performance relocated valve heads. If you raise the exhaust port and that is necessary to get the flow numbers up you might need custom headers in some applications.You need lots of lift to overcome the poor flow from a small block head. (basically simply put other factors are involved) So adding eyebrows are a definite. Like i said it is easy to do and the difference in HP is beyond the issue of cutting them. You will also need squeeze to get the numbers you are looking for Good luck on your build Have a great evening guys.
youve gotta watchout with the trick flow heads though. I think the valves are actually relocated slightly. so any valve reliefs in the top of the piston may "mis-align" and cause some unintended contact.
Ive also head good things about AFR (Air flow research) heads.
I think most aluminum heads new go for $1200 and up....sorry
Trick flow heads also don't use stock valve releifs and clear fine with a 2.02 intake valve.
they will clear fine, especially if you stay with a stock h.o. cam, which i would personally do.
btw, I'm referancing the twisted wedge 50 state legal 170cc heads.
The guy wants to make 300 WHP he aint doing that with an HO CAM !!!!!!! And he will need all the flow he can get so that is the issue with the build. Making 300 WHP on the small FORD is not cheap or easy to an extent. I just finished a 347 and it dynowed @ 329 WHP on a MUSTANG DYNO and the build was NA. Not great numbers by any means but good for the setup at hand. You need valve reliefs no matter how you look at it if 300 WHP is your goal. You can take that to the BANK!! When cutting reliefs you have to do it with the head you plan to run. A relocated valve is not an issue at all. Have a good day guys.
Never assume a cam will clear a piston no matter how many times someone says they do. They have to be checked.
Heads, cam and custom machining of stock flat tops is a lot of money to spend to put 300 horse on the road. If you want to make power, you're going to have to start with pistons that have reliefs, don't bother trying to machine the ones you have, you'll spend less money and end up with better parts. Somebody here will probably sell you some HO stockers (forged with valve reliefs) if you ask around. I've got a spare set, but I don't know if I'm ready to part with them. For heads, GT40s will probably get you there on the cheap, but a nice set of edelbrocks or afrs will get you a lot further, and you WILL need a cam. HO won't do it, and neither will 19# injectors (absolutely forget 14#s), so plan on .480 lift or better and at least 24# injectors. You'll need a GT40 intake at minimum, and 60+mm openings. Hope that's helpful.
I agree start with pistons with valve reliefs and start from there. Depending on your sweep compression and HP numbers you plan on making. But remember small ford heads do not flow very well and that is why making real HP numbers is so difficult. But cutting reliefs are no big deal. I do it all the time. Have a good day. I would think a cam with more lift is necessary as the small ford head needs it to flow good numbers. looking at my charts would necessitate a cam in the 550 range to get the numbers over 325-360 WHP. Just saying.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1155880-how-flycut-pistons-ls1-free-almost.html
I did this with the red car. Stock flat-tops, wanted to put GT40s on it. (non-p, just for reference) Not incredibly accurate, I did not ensure TDC to a high degree of accuracy with a dial indicator, but I used a valve bigger than what I was applying with the head, so I built in plenty of safety margin. Not sure if I lost excessive compression, but the reliefs didn't look that big to me. In fact I didn't even make complete half-circle eyebrows for any of them. Using your cam lift and rocker ratio, find out what the actual valve lift will be, use a Sharpie and mark this on the valve stem, go from there. You can easily build in whatever extra safety margin you want. I did just this, and I've spun the motor right up to its limiter plenty of times. (Stock HO cam, by the way) Runs great, very smooth, no problems.
But I was duly impressed by this. CAREFUL, that sandpaper marches right through the aluminum quicker than you'd think!!!!!!
Thanks guys. Haystacks says I can get away with the Trickflow TW 170 with the HO cam. Sounds like I'm not going to get 300 HP. What can I expect? 250? 275? If I go the route of changing out the pistons, we're now talking about removing the engine, getting the cylinders bored, new rings etc... right? Big $$$$.
Yup. The TFS TW heads have a canted valve design. I have true flat tops. No dish, no valve relief. They're not stock either..... Currently running a cam with .565" lift and about 230 degrees duration @ .050"....... PTV clearance is fine. And yeah, comfortably over 300 to the tire....
Twisted Wedge 170s, a decent cam, Track Heat intake, and 75mm Tb should make 300rwhp on a 302-306ci engine all day long. I've seen plenty of combos do it.
What heads/cam/intake were on that 347? 329rwhp is weak for a 347.
Two words are overlooked here: MUSTANG DYNO. On a Dynojet I'd wager you'd see the magic 350....maybe a tad more.... I'm gonna wager that the heads aren't too big. My guess is they're smaller than say.... an AFR 185....
Yeah a 347 needs at least a 205cc head.
That's encouraging. with 24# injectors? Can I reuse my push rods? $1250 for the heads, $300 for the 1.6 rockers, gaskets and head bolts. Does that sound right? Oh and something more aggressive than the HO cam or should I stick with it for clearance peace of mind?
HO cam should work but there is no way you can re-use the stock pushrods. The Twisted Wedge heads have a different valve train geometry than inline (i.e. every other 302/351W head) heads and require a longer pushrod. Plus TW heads use stud mount rockers and guide plates which require hardened pushrods. Stock pushrods are not hardened.
A HO cam, Twisted Wedge heads, and a GT40 style intake should make 270-280 at the wheels and good low end torque. It will top out around 5000-5500 rpm. A more aggressive cam and larger intake should get you 300rwhp.
Your stock AOD is going to suck with the Twisted Wedge setup. You need at least a shift kit/valve body and converter, which is more $$$.
I call this the HEART BREAKER. People come in and think they are going to make tuns of HP. They leave Heart Broken. many times people tell me my DYNE is way off. BS the Mustang dyne is the bottom line. A dyno jet will always make much more HP than a mustang WAY MORE. totally apples and oranges. we have seen sheets at 450HP on a D JET and we test the same car at under 380. what you have to do when fly cutting is to have a stone or grinder larger than the head of the valve in question. Another words bigger in diameter. Otherwise the relief is NG. Using the sticky grit method id ok but not as good as the ISKY setup. remember you do not want the edges to roll over. that is where you will have issues. And as i said the relief has to be bigger then the valve you use. And every relief has to be exactly the same. Then you need to balance the pistons of course. Here we go!!
NOTE never run a cam without checking PV clearance. I have seen strange things in my day. Never trust a combination without testing the clearance.
http://iskycams.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/30888/NP-1132
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/IMG_0007.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/IMG_0007.jpg.html)
347 CUIN Renegade 165 balanced and relieved custom cam 550 L 236 @ 50 115 LC advanced 4* CR 10-1 36* total timing 24 LB GT 40 explorer induction. 329 HP and 380 lbs of twist. Mustang Dyno great running DD and relatively cheap build i am very satisfied with the numbers and the cost of this 347. Have a great night guys.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/bb0e12a5-e8fb-4c52-aceb-ee447497694a_zps9f4d7aee.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/tfalconier/media/bb0e12a5-e8fb-4c52-aceb-ee447497694a_zps9f4d7aee.jpg.html)
Well that's why a 347 made 302 power:hick:
AFR165 heads, GT40 intake, 24lb injectors are all 302-306ci parts. A 347 with 302 parts will make 302 power.
If they guy had ponyed (pun intended) up for some good flowing heads/intake for 347ci it would have made more power. Some AFR205/TW205 or bigger heads, Trick Flow R or Edelbrock Victor Jr intake, 90mmTB, and a cam to tie it all together and that 347 would be kicking out 380-400hp at the wheels even on a Mustang Dyno. More cubes need more airflow.
I know that but i can not spend other peoples money. We pieced the engine together for as reasonable as possible. Customer provided the parts. We told him it would be low on power but he wanted high torque at low RPM. So i put it together and the numbers we got were more than i expected as i posted previously. That car would snap your neck with torque from idle to 4800 and pulled like a rapes ape. I was very satisfied with the torque band. And for that setup it made great HP. With that have a great day.
The difference between dynos is APP 8-9% or 1.14 we tell our customers between a Mustang and D jet. Some will argue this. bottom line is track numbers.
My dyno guy has an MD. My S197 made 402 with a hamster wheel for a pulley. I need more converter in that car. On a cold day she'll give about 3200. The car needs about 3800-4000.
Thanks. How do I know what length push rods to order? I saw these on a site that other people were buying with those heads: TRICKFLOW PUSHROD KIT, 5/16" 6.700" LONG. They were $119. Seems like a lot of $ for push rods. Are those the correct dimensions?
so now I'm up to: Heads + rockers + head bolts + gasket kit + push rods (and an upgraded fuel pump). anything else? Does the HO SD computer care whether I have 19# or 24# injectors? or is that only when I go to mass air?
Understand about the AOD. I'll have to get a shift kit (and possibly a new torque converter) installed when I do my floor shifter conversion.
Those ae correct if you run the Trick Flow Stage 1 cam IIRC.....
Pushrods should be measured. Read here: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0401_setting_pushrod_length/
$119 aint terrible for a set of hardened pushrods.... you gotta pay to play.
When you have to work with a budget compromises are made, none of it your fault. If the guy had more money he could have had a real screamer on his hands. Still 329rwhp (about 370-380fwhp) is enough to get someone in trouble on the street :).
Going fast costs $$$. It's not just the heads but the other parts as well.
Switching from 19lb to 24lb injectors is going to require either MAF or a Computer tune. SD will only run with 19lb injectors (stock HO computer) Yes your Thunderbird computer won't work. You're going to need a 5.0 Mustang computer. More $$$.
Ok. That's good to know. I have 19# to start with and a Mustang computer already. Then I'll change to MAF.
I spoke with one of the tech people from a store that sell the TW heads and he said that with the HO cam, the stock HO push rods are the correct length and will work fine. I just happen to have a set of those so I'll swap those in when I slap the heads on.
Grab a pushrod checker they are cheap and work rather well. have a great evening guys.
Thanks everyone for the help. Looking forward to busting through the 0-60 8 second time.
I would check the pushrod length. From what I have heard you'll need longer pushrods no matter what cam you run. Plus you can't re-use the stock pushrods with stud mount rockers. They have guide plates which will wear holes in the stock pushrods. You'll need hardened pushrods for the Twisted Wedge heads. No matter what you're buying pushrods ;).
I just remembered I had this. Owner claims 330 horse at the wheels.
video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjpXbMiCtg&list=PLkeZTGsldc5f85K_SQbu2rB-KYF6ZW9HF
car has: -Trick flow TW170 heads with high lift valve option
-ARP 9/16 rocker studs
-Comp pro magnum roller rockers
-Lunati hardened pushrods
-Ed Curtis custom billet cam
-Edelbrock RPM II manifold
-Cobra injectors, mallory fuel rails and pressure regulator
-PP 70mm Throttle body and EGR spacer
-C&L Intake tube
-Thunderbird S/C MAF sensor
-K&N filter
-X3Z ECU with SCT chip and tune
-BBK 1 5/8 chrome long tubes into -BBK X pipe
-Custom magnaflow lers
-Taylor racing plug wires
-JEGS SFI harmonic balancer
-Ford high-rpm water pump
-Underdrive pulleys
-JEGS aluminum radiator
-Walbro 255 fuel pump
Strange. LateModelRestoration said the old HO rods would work. Summit Racing told me to buy these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7826-16/overview/ 6.248. they said they looked it up in the Comp Cam book and it said 6.250. These are the universal push rods.
Trick Flow said that 6.750 push rods were to be used with the Twisted Wedge 170 heads and that's what they send in the top end kits for the 5.0.
Bottom line is they have to be checked. Never assume a part fits . And if the head is a stud unit you need hardened ones or as posted above they will wear through. But most push rods are hardened but you never assume that. I can not stress the need to check the length you need. Dynamic Stacking always throws a wrench in things like this. That is what blueprinting is all about. Have a great evening guys.
I had that same "high lift valve" option with my heads. It's basically Trick Flow's upgrade spring package. When Ed Curtis spec'd my cam based on what I wanted, I was told to ditch that setup or revise what I wanted.... There is no way that the TFS setup would have handled the cam. My guess is valve float would have snuck in around 5500 RPM. Maybe sooner.
My soon to be brother in law has an unused, not running, 89 RX7 sitting at his house. This. This is an epic idea.....