Technical => Electrical Tech => Topic started by: V8Demon on June 13, 2014, 10:37:03 AM
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2014, 10:37:03 AM
The curse continues.....
OK here's what you need to know: '87 Cougar 5.0 full digi dash. Battery is 4 months old. Alternator is about 4 or 5 years old and has about 12,000 miles on it. It's a stock output, stock style replacement. No alarm or extra stereo equipment.
Historically since I've owned the vehicle, the voltage gauge has always read a steady 4 bars. Upon leaving for Carlisle last week on Thursday, I pulled the Cougar into the garage where it remained while I was gone with the Mustang. Upon pulling it out Sunday night to put the Mustang away, the voltage gauge shows 3 bars and the chime goes off every 70 seconds (yes, I timed it). The battery icon next to it constantly flashes as well.
I thought perhaps the ignition might not have been fully seated in the off position as I can remove the ignition key in pretty much any position to include when the car is running. I figured I'd drive it around a bit to see what happens and hopefully what happened WAS in fact what I thought and that the battery would just recharge.
I've driven the car a few times since to include 2 highway trips of 15 miles. I've taken note that a combination of braking while having the turn signal on will in fact make the gauge read 2 bars. It will pop right back up to 3 when I remove either one of those two variables.....The car starts up and runs trouble free and I can turn EVERYTHING on and leave it at idle. I did this for about an hour with zero effect. Yesterday I pulled the battery out and put a 40 amp charge on it for an hour. I put it back in the car afterward. No difference.
My voltmeter is BURIED right now and between all the other shiznit that's happened since I've returned, I have had ZERO time to dig it out (shag you 1 year old Samsung washing machine, you suck).
If this were a draw I would expect that the battery would have died or I see some diminished effect by this point. Nothing. Obviously I have to dig out my meter and check the voltage on the battery and while running to see if in fact the alternator is giving me full output. My gut tells me it is though from when the gauge goes from 3 bars down to 2 and then promptly back up. If in fact I am correct, what other glaring thing(s) should I look at first?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: EricCoolCats on June 13, 2014, 11:05:32 AM
IIRC there's something to do with a shunt…maybe that's the low oil pressure thing but it may also be for the voltmeter.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2014, 11:20:35 AM
Yeah, that's for the oil pressure. Mine's reading good. That one seems to be for when the gauge is lighting up the top and the bottom. Mine just reads lower than normal and chimes.....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 13, 2014, 12:07:32 PM
It's got to be something in the dash itself. I have a full digital dash and the voltage gauge always has read 5 bars. It will go down to 4 bars at idle with the A/C, headlamps, and stereo on (all stock) only. Turn any one of the previous items off and it goes back to 5 bars at idle. For what it's worth the car idles at 700rpm hot in park, 625 in drive.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 13, 2014, 12:31:23 PM
My 87 bird was giving me weird low battery things on long trips, around town it was fine. stock alt and 200watt no name cd player. everything else is stock.
when i was working on pulling the engine, the two 10 guage wires broke off at the splice i put in that eas included with the new alt connector. i crimped, soldered and heat shrunk over the wires. alt is only maybe a year old.
the stock wiring is way underdone even for the stock alt. throw a 3g in if you find any problems with the alt or your wiring. a partial or bad connection will cause bad readings.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Chuck W on June 13, 2014, 12:41:03 PM
Bad ground?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2014, 02:52:27 PM
Dug out my multimeter......
Battery voltage with vehicle off: 12.20
Voltage with engine running: 11.95
I repeated the tests 3 times. Same results down to the hundredth of a volt.
Idle RPM is a steady 750. Any lower and the camshaft I run gets grumpy.
My grounds in the car appear well. Guess I'll bring it for a load test on the alternator.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: grutinator on June 13, 2014, 03:06:41 PM
i've seen alternators go bad and have a break in the wiring for one of the phases. it can produce kinda funny tests like that. two of the three is enough to kinda keep it running, but not really charge the battery or run many electronics.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 13, 2014, 03:08:29 PM
Alt is either junk, or wiring is starting to melt.
as long as a resistance check for negetive battery cable to block isn't too high, id swap in a 3g and call it a day. i wonder if your voltagrle would come up any if you reved it higher.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 13, 2014, 08:32:11 PM
Convert to a 3G Your alternator went south.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: ZondaC12 on June 14, 2014, 12:25:15 AM
Running, the car should be charging somewhere between 13 and 14.4 volts. I'll have to meter my battery tender tomorrow, see what that "holds" a stored battery at. I think it's similar, just a very low current. Based on battery's internal resistance if I am not mistaken. Charging "systems" on lawn tractors effectively keep their batteries charged. Very crude and simple system there. Not that with integrated circuits and software you couldn't do *better*.
For this reason the digital dash is awesome, if for nothing else. I was rounding an on-ramp in the red car last month and suddenly heard a beeeeep and noticed it switched to oil pressure. I immediately went into a panic mode, but at the same time noticed that the normal number of bars (3 or 4 I think?) were present. Toggled through elec/temp/oil again, no change. Pulled over anyway, shut 'er down. Not full but not real low either. Must have momentarily sloshed from the pickup. You always tell yourself you'll keep an eye on the gauges, but you almost never hear that unique beep, so when you do its an "attention-getter"! (say that in a Jackie Gleason southern voice ;) )
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on June 14, 2014, 09:18:48 AM
3g, all the way. No better time than now. Before I did mine, I couldn't stay above 13.5v with the headlights, rear defrost and eatc on. After, I stay between 14.3 and 14.6 no matter what's on. I even installed a overrunning one way clutched pulley on it (eliminates belt slap on hard upshifts).
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 14, 2014, 09:53:53 AM
You may want to make a couple of quick checks with your volt meter to confirm the alternator is probably bad. The voltage checks will be on the alternator connectors. You can unplug them if that is easier for the probe type you have. 1. With the key off, check for battery voltage on the BK/O wires to the Alt B+ . Look for overheating damage to this connector. 2. With the key off, check for battery voltage on the Y/W wire to the regulator A terminal. 3. With the key in run (don't start) check for battery voltage on the LG/R (may be LG/Y) wire to the regulator I terminal.
You need all of the above voltages for the Alt work.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 14, 2014, 11:33:35 AM
Since your car has an external voltage regulator so you might want to grab that and take it to get checked along with your alt. Just because the alt is somewhat new does not mean its good to go. We have all been down that road a couple of times.
If its the alt then hopefully its still under warranty and if it is the regulator then that is cheap enough. I too would suggest going to the 3G alt but if you are 100% stock then I don't know if it is worth it. I have waaay too much aftermarket electrical components on both of my cars so I made the swap to a 3G years ago.
Darren
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 14, 2014, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;434824
Since your car has an external voltage regulator so you might want to grab that and take it to get checked along with your alt. Just because the alt is somewhat new does not mean its good to go. We have all been down that road a couple of times.
If its the alt then hopefully its still under warranty and if it is the regulator then that is cheap enough. I too would suggest going to the 3G alt but if you are 100% stock then I don't know if it is worth it. I have waaay too much aftermarket electrical components on both of my cars so I made the swap to a 3G years ago.
Darren
He says it's an 87. That should be a 2G with internal regulator. The voltage I gave for the LG/R wire to the I terminal is with the connector unplugged. Also if the Alternator warning light is on with the KOEO , this circuit is good.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on June 14, 2014, 06:32:15 PM
The 90 amp unit from the MarkVII is external, but in 87, he'll have a 60 amp internal regulator. Junk in my opinion. Even with everything stock, 60 amps in comically inadequate.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: mcb82gt on June 14, 2014, 07:39:02 PM
Just "chimeing" in, My 88 with the 3G has 5 bars, drops to 4 every time I turn the AC/fans on. Never lower.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 14, 2014, 08:35:33 PM
Quote from: mcb82gt;434830
Just "chimeing" in, My 88 with the 3G has 5 bars, drops to 4 every time I turn the AC/fans on. Never lower.
My Thunderbird with the 2G does the exact same thing.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 16, 2014, 11:29:42 AM
Quote from: ZondaC12;434813
Running, the car should be charging somewhere between 13 and 14.4 volts. For this reason the digital dash is awesome, if for nothing else. I was rounding an on-ramp in the red car last month and suddenly heard a beeeeep and noticed it switched to oil pressure. I immediately went into a panic mode, but at the same time noticed that the normal number of bars (3 or 4 I think?) were present. Toggled through elec/temp/oil again, no change. Pulled over anyway, shut 'er down. Not full but not real low either. Must have momentarily sloshed from the pickup. You always tell yourself you'll keep an eye on the gauges, but you almost never hear that unique beep, so when you do its an "attention-getter"! (say that in a Jackie Gleason southern voice ;) )
I've tested the car while running before with this very alternator right after I put it in. It was either a very high 13 or low 14. And yes, I'm a huge fan of my Studio 54 dash!
Quote from: softtouch;434820
You may want to make a couple of quick checks with your volt meter to confirm the alternator is probably bad. The voltage checks will be on the alternator connectors. You can unplug them if that is easier for the probe type you have. 1. With the key off, check for battery voltage on the BK/O wires to the Alt B+ . Look for overheating damage to this connector. 2. With the key off, check for battery voltage on the Y/W wire to the regulator A terminal. 3. With the key in run (don't start) check for battery voltage on the LG/R (may be LG/Y) wire to the regulator I terminal.
You need all of the above voltages for the Alt work.
I will check those this afternoon. Thank you softtouch, you always come through ;)
Quote from: Aerocoupe;434824
Since your car has an external voltage regulator so you might want to grab that and take it to get checked along with your alt. Just because the alt is somewhat new does not mean its good to go. We have all been down that road a couple of times.
If its the alt then hopefully its still under warranty and if it is the regulator then that is cheap enough. I too would suggest going to the 3G alt but if you are 100% stock then I don't know if it is worth it. I have waaay too much aftermarket electrical components on both of my cars so I made the swap to a 3G years ago.
Darren
Darren; this is exactly why I never swapped/upgraded earlier.
I'm contemplating 2 options: 1. Full out 130 3g alternator conversion kit replete with secondary power wire: http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/SVE-17046K2/Mustang-SVE-130-Amp-Alternator-Upgrade-87-93-50L
I like the fact that the 130 has the secondary power wire in the kit I linked to. It's supposedly not necessary, but RECOMMENDED. It never hurts to be safer and for the extra $40 oer the 130 amp kit without it, I'll take the peace of mind. For me 130 amps is a bit overkill though. Would it be a feasible to run the 95 amp unit in combination with the secondary power wire? It's sold separately. See here: http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/PA-9902/Mustang-3g-alternator-Premium-4-Gauge-Power-Wire-Kit-W-Noise-Suppression
The wire WITHOUT noise suppression is 15 bucks less.
Looks as if the 130 kit would be a better value than purchasing the 95 amp alternator and the power wire separate, ESPECIALLY if the wire included with the 130 amp kit is in fact the noise suppression variety..... I'll test further and see what happens. Had to work the 3PM-11PM shift all weekend. I can dig into this after 1PM.
Stay tuned ;)
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Chuck W on June 16, 2014, 12:43:59 PM
Yeah, 3G is the way to go. Especially if you have a 2G with that py connector that overheats and causes problems.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 16, 2014, 02:48:15 PM
Quote from: softtouch;434820
You may want to make a couple of quick checks with your volt meter to confirm the alternator is probably bad. The voltage checks will be on the alternator connectors. You can unplug them if that is easier for the probe type you have. 1. With the key off, check for battery voltage on the BK/O wires to the Alt B+ . Look for overheating damage to this connector. 2. With the key off, check for battery voltage on the Y/W wire to the regulator A terminal. 3. With the key in run (don't start) check for battery voltage on the LG/R (may be LG/Y) wire to the regulator I terminal.
You need all of the above voltages for the Alt work.
*SIGH*
...... Here's what I got:
Battery Voltage: 12.10 Test #1: 0 Test #2: 0 Test #3: 1.169
Tests #1 & #2 were performed with the connectors plugged and unplugged just for confirmation. Time to dig deeper it looks like. It looks like a good thing I picked up that wiring harness.
*EDIT*
Started car: 11.74 across the battery at idle. Kick it up to 1500: 11.74 Back to idle and turn on headlamps, radio, heat, defroster, and left hand turn signal. Let run for a minute in this configuration: 11.40 Turn everything off and let engine run @ idle: 11.74......
What?!
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 16, 2014, 03:17:35 PM
Found my problem. Blown fusible link near the starter solenoid. Now I have to look up what size it is.... IIRC it's 16 guage....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 16, 2014, 04:08:15 PM
Yes it is a black 16 gauge. This usually happens if you hook-up jumper cables backwards.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 16, 2014, 07:11:30 PM
Check thr condition of your two yellow charge cables right after your plug.
i used a new connector and crimped and heatshrunk mine installed maybe a year ago. one of the charge cables was completely off and the other one broke just touching it.
go get a tarus alt, buy some cheap 6-8 guage jumper cables for wire and a $20 fuse kit for a 150amp stereo, or breaker if you prefer. done for less then $100 and have 80 amps idle and 130-160
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 16, 2014, 11:47:14 PM
Replaced the fusible link: 13.8 volts at 1500 RPM
.. The link still gets hot. I started digging... Found this.
The yellow and black wires go back into the single 16 gauge fusible link that I replaced. The green wire with red strip goes to the voltage regulator. The connection sits right underneath the battery. The red wire dead heads into it with nothing going forward to the charging and light harness.....What the hell is that one for?
And yes, I know I gotta clean under there. The repaint caused most of the grime. I haven't head a chance to pull out the wiring to start this until now.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 17, 2014, 12:37:13 AM
That connector is under the battery? I have no idea where that goes but I can take a look on my car tomorrow if you want.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 17, 2014, 12:39:24 AM
No idea. if i get bored i might pull up an 87 evmt and dig into it. ill probably check my bird tomorrow when i pull the engine as well to see if it goes anywhere.
glad you got the fuseable link all figured out at least.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 17, 2014, 12:43:00 AM
http://www.coolcats.net/library/fusepanel.html
shows 3 16 guage fuseable links.
lamp feed, ignition feed or rear window defroster.
my moneys on rear window defroster assuming you don't have one, but just a guess.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 17, 2014, 08:57:53 AM
The link is for the ignition circuit. I have a rear defroster and it works without issue. The black wire with orange strip in that connect makes a straight run to the alternator, it's the power feed. That is the wire that needs to be upgraded/supplemented when upgrading to a 3g alternator. The yellow goes I don't know where yet.
Also; I have another bundle of wires that has been in the car since I purchased it in 1998. It's 5 wires. 4 of them are clipped. The last goes to a 2 inch by 1 inch box mounted by the battery. This box has another wire coming out of it that grounds to the frame. All small stuff; 16-18 gauge. I never paid it much mind and chalked it up to a factory alarm system that was removed. The wires go to their own dedicated hole in the firewall with what APPEARS to be a factory style rubber grommet. I'll get pictures of that later. I'd like to remove it completely.
Ahhh, the '80's - where wiring amounts grew and they stuck the new ones wherever with zero care......
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 17, 2014, 01:22:25 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;434894
Replaced the fusible link: 13.8 volts at 1500 RPM
.. The link still gets hot. I started digging... Found this.
The yellow and black wires go back into the single 16 gauge fusible link that I replaced. The green wire with red strip goes to the voltage regulator. The connection sits right underneath the battery. The red wire dead heads into it with nothing going forward to the charging and light harness.....What the hell is that one for?
And yes, I know I gotta clean under there. The repaint caused most of the grime. I haven't head a chance to pull out the wiring to start this until now.
This is connector C403 in the following diagram. The red wire is not used on 5.0, only used on 3.8.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 17, 2014, 01:34:47 PM
Your alt output is a little low at 13.8v and the link getting hot could mean you have a heavy electrical load on the alt. Maybe because the battery is discharged.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 17, 2014, 03:57:49 PM
I'm thinking that connector has had issues for a while now from the looks of it. I cut it out and am going to hard wire those 3.... After that, I'm changing the connector on the alternator. I'm not gonna upgrade until this is fixed.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 17, 2014, 04:13:45 PM
I don't know if you really need the 3G. I've got a stock electrical system and the 2G does fine. That's why I keep putting off the 3G upgrade. I'm waiting till the alternator s out first.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 17, 2014, 06:56:41 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;434921
I'm thinking that connector has had issues for a while now from the looks of it. I cut it out and am going to hard wire those 3.... After that, I'm changing the connector on the alternator. I'm not gonna upgrade until this is fixed.
The unused red wire may be hot with the key on. If so, you don't want it grounding out.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 17, 2014, 07:37:56 PM
The problem with the stock setup is the wiring. even though its a 60 amp alt, it only puts out about 35 amps at idle. my smallest model airplane pulls over 30 amps @12.6 v's.
just figuring the headlights and a 200watt radio uses over 20 of those 40 amps.
the wiring is way underdone.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 17, 2014, 07:40:14 PM
It's wrapped and waterproof now. Just finished. A plague upon the last person who did that pigtail on the alternator. It was a mess. Redone.
Bad news. The link still gets hot... I can find nothing else that stands out.....
Just redid those tests... 0 0 0.761
So by fixing obvious issues this has somehow gotten worse? From what I understand isn't the 3rd test supposed to show around 2.4 or so?
Also: Battery with key on and door open 11.74 Start car 13.68 Car ran for 15 seconds and the oink got noticeably uncomfortable to touch. Shut car off ignition on door open a total of 30 seconds from first reading 12.24
Isn't that quite a bit of increase in 30 seconds?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 17, 2014, 09:14:46 PM
Ok if you have the alternator with the plug arrangement instead of the post and nut you are going to have issues. Does your car in fact have an external regulator?? If so in my opinion you are wasting your time trying to repair it. Just me. Those connectors burn up and cause fires. There is a couple of service bulletins on this. If i was doing the job i would rip out all those green connectors remove the external regulator and wire in a 3G and be done with it. Any wiring that gets hot has to much resistance. That is why it gets hot. If it is your alt feed wires to the solenoid that is the main charging wire and it has to much voltage drop. .Better fix it and get rid of that outdated alternator. Plain and simple those alternators are GARBAGE and under rated drastically for the car and it's electrical load. Have a good evening guys. just my thoughts on the issue!!
Note if the alternator has an external regulator it is a 1G If it has a plug battery feed it is a 2g with internal regulator. And a 3g is internal regulator with a battery post feed with a nut. Hope this helps. Show a photo of your setup for clarity on the issue. If you are not getting 13.8 -14.7 at 1500 RPM'S you are not charging.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 17, 2014, 10:06:56 PM
The 3g 130 amp kit I linked comes with a power wire that would be used instead of the black/orange wire. Trust me, I know it's time to upgrade.
I'm assuming if I upgrade the power feed line I SHOULD upgrade the ground wire too.... Any suggestions for that?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 17, 2014, 10:12:13 PM
What's your ground now?
When i replace mine i just buy a cheap 6 guage post to eyeles from the parts store. no idea what stock should be.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 17, 2014, 10:14:22 PM
All the grounds are stock right now.
Also I just realized; I have a high torque mini starter. It's a Powermaster XS model #9503. AFAIK, this is like the later PMGR starters. Been in the car for a while now....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 17, 2014, 10:23:10 PM
No need to mess with the grounds as long as they are tight and clean. Once again post a photo of your setup. Wiring issues are always tricky when i try to help people out. They seem to be uncomfortable with it.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: softtouch on June 18, 2014, 01:38:12 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;434932
It's wrapped and waterproof now. Just finished. A plague upon the last person who did that pigtail on the alternator. It was a mess. Redone.
Bad news. The link still gets hot... I can find nothing else that stands out.....
Was the original fuse link green or black? I think there is a error in the 87 EVTM. The 88 EVTM shows a green 14 gauge link instead of the black 16 gauge. If it should be 14 gauge, that would explain why it is overheating.
Quote
Just redid those tests... 0 I think you miss probed the first two. they have a direct circuit to the battery, unless the link blew again. 0 0.761 I confused the issue with this test. With the cable unplugged and key on it is close to battery voltage. Cable plugged and key on it signals the Reg to turn on the Alt field current and the reg provides the ground to turn on the Alt warning light on the dash. With the engine running and the Alt has an output, the voltage from the Alt to the S terminal on the Reg causes the Reg to remove the ground from the Reg I terminal and the warning light goes out. So with the engine running, the voltage should be near battery voltage.
To sum all that up, if the Alt warning light comes on with the key on and goes off when you start the engine, all is good.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 18, 2014, 03:57:38 AM
The fuse was originally black when I bought the car. It was actually labeled 16 gauge. I replaced it with 16 gauge after it went the fist time. This time I had an original one that's built into that wire jumble. I replaced all of that, removed the wiring connector that was coated with corrosion and spliced everything together. Also I replaced the connector on the alternator itself which is remaining cool when this is all running. The last line k I replaced lasted 5+ years without a hitch.
I often wonder why the one side has both the yellow AND black/orange on one link in the wiring to the block and on the other side they are separate. All 3 run to a crimp and go to the ring terminal on the starter solenoid. The other 2 stay cold.
The wiring back towards the link steps down at some point to 12 gauge as opposed to the 10 coming from the alternator. As far as I know and can tell it's stock other than what I've just done, but I have not changed any sizes... I'm guessing it changes where the yellow wire runs into it labelled s492 in the evtm diagram posted earlier.
Pics tomorrow. Frustration abounds......
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 18, 2014, 04:10:40 PM
OK. I've decided to just replace that ENTIRE wire section instead of just the pieces I could see that were bad. I picked up 8 foot of 10 gauge wire and 4 foot of 12 gauge. Should be plenty. I've also found another ground strap on the 5.0 motor I have in the backyard as well. It's going on. Not today though. I spent entirely too much time on this already this set of days off and I'm actually gonna enjoy today 'cause I gotta work tomorrow. I'll pick at it at my convenience as this; after all is not a commuter that NEEDS to be fixed this very moment.
In the meantime here's pics. Keep in mind I left everything in the area of the starter solenoid apart from one another so I could check to see if that one link got hot....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 18, 2014, 09:47:49 PM
The part you are holding is not the link. The link is the actual wire link connected to that splice in your hand. If the splice gets hot it is NG!! That is what i thought you have a 2G with spade connectors. That unit is junk and should not be used as they are a fire hazard. Ford has a TSB on the issues and repair procedure. Ford bridged the battery feed at the alternator and made it a single wire to the solenoid at the alternator because the spade pr0ngs were not rated for a constant 60 Amps. So they doubled them up at the connector and bridged them together in the wiring harness. This created a heat situation at the connector on the alternator and melted it and in some cases caused a fire. Ford has a replacement alternator with a lug to fix the issue. But if you are going to up date might as well get a 3G and do it correctly. I know you do not want to do it now but the risk of melting that connector is real and dangerous. Either way you need a new feed wire to the solenoid and the alternator. I would suggest a Number 8 gauge fused with a 100A maxi fuse and holder which is much better than a link and bridged together with your new plug. Or better yet 2 separate wires from your new plug run all the way to the solenoid separately and bridged at the solenoid in stead of bridging them at the new alternator plug you installed. This will eliminate a splice and there will be no splices from the alternator to the starter solenoid other than at the new connector. Then s all the factory wiring with it's connectors and resistive connections. Another words a dedicated number 8 Gauge wire directly from the solenoid to the battery lugs of the alternator. Or 2 separate number 12 gauge wires fun to the solenoid separately. One from each of those battery lugs on the alternator. This will fix all those sketchy connectors that are getting hot and building voltage drops in the system. And make sure all connections are not crimped. But crimped and soldered. have a good evening guys
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on June 18, 2014, 10:37:06 PM
I pulled the whole cable out of the harness and ran a new one with a 175A molded in fuse that I pulled off a 3rd gen Escape. It has ring terminals on both ends and the length was just right.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 19, 2014, 06:42:58 AM
How much was that cable, what gauge wire is it, and what do I do with the other 2 links that run off the same mini harness that runs back towards the dash? Just leave them? They stay cool throughout.....
My major concern is not sizing a new fuse or link correctly. I fear I may go too large and render it useless in it's job to protect.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 21, 2014, 12:26:57 AM
SO........ I pulled all my wiring apart and gave it a once over. AGAIN. Bad connection at the spade terminal on the alternator. Fixed. Link still hot.... I figure it's high time I pull my engine to chassis ground off to see it up close. I didn't like it..... Went and bought new ground straps. They are GIGANTIC. 1 inch wide as opposed to the factory 3/8 in. or so. I sand down the firewall and intake connection points, put the new ground on, and replace the positive battery cable. The car started up and the wire got warm. Warmer than I'd like, but not nearly what it was.... Oh, I snapped the bolt off the starter solenoid too. Had to replace that. Now my wife understands why I keep boxes of parts. I have to install the other monster strap. I was thinking back of the passenger side head to the frame rail. I also am thinking of running 6 or 4 gauge eyelet type from the negative battery terminal to somewhere on the frame in addition to the existing one that comes out the backside of the terminal... Anyone see any issue with that?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 21, 2014, 10:33:40 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;434983
The part you are holding is not the link. The link is the actual wire link connected to that splice in your hand.
eactly.... everywhere those black blocks appear are "splices".. the wire in between the splices are the "fuse links"
what i have noticed......... answer to earlier questions.. -voltages on the small D connector should be "about" source battery on the outter two pins and "about 7.5v on the middle.
-with your torx bit, remove the regulator, observe the length of the brushes and replace the regulator if required. -to re-install, push the brushes back up into the regulator, the push the paper clip into the hole made in the regulator housing / brushes... bolt it back on then pull the paper clip out.
-I think you need to take all the coverings off all the wiring departing and down stream of the starter relay. -by feel, follow each and every fuse link by hand and "feel" for an area where the wire seems to bend easy.
*typically all these fuse links are a "solid" two or three conductor" design,, not "flex" wiring like tiny hairs.
the bad thing about these fuse links are that they are in parallel with each other and with all the ring termnals connected to a source battery , a fuse link will have power at each splice point because the voltage will loop around and back feed into another fuse link.
-example, you could have a fuse link blown but it will have power at either end.... so..........
to check each fuse link do this.......... just read it carefully and you will get it and you wont spend more than 30min i promise!!!
-unhook all ring lugs at the battery side of starter relay. (one side of starter relay has batt cable and *ALL* ring lugs., other side just has starter cable) -leave the battery cable on the stud. -place one ring terminal of your choosing on the stud and add the nut and snug it down. -follow ****THIS wire path **** to and after the last fuse link in this path with a stick pin for power "following the flow of water". -wash rense and repeat on each *INDIVIDUAL* ring terminal.
you are isolating individual circuits by doing the above.
once you notice you had "power here" and "no power there", will be able to determine where the issue is. I hope you find one blown. remember,, rape that harness wayyyyy down the line, your going to find more fuse links deeper in that same harness and like you mentioned down under the battery tray.... the covers have to come off.
jot down my number .. 304 772 3411 , can talk you through it.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 21, 2014, 10:41:09 AM
one day i want to omitt the fuse links with a terminal block consisting of individual physical fuses, possibly the fuses with the built in LED light indicating the fuse is blown.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 21, 2014, 10:47:47 AM
actually if you destroy that fuse link splice your holding, you will find that ford "lays" the wires atop each other, then the machine came in and did a "Cad Weld".
these are very high quality splice points contained inside,, i was impressed actually. Nothing we could ever do would surpass thier engineering on this aspect.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 21, 2014, 08:38:40 PM
I've ripped a few of these apart over the years. They ARE pretty neat. Work interfered with life today. No work on the car. I'll tackle the last bit tomorrow.
I did exactly what you said already with regards to the wiring Scott. The ONLY place that gets hot is the Iink. With the ground change the temp. decreased quite a bit. I'm gonna add the second strap, replace the one in the transmission tunnel and run a 6 gauge wire from the battery terminal for group as well.
When this happened years back the one in the transmission tunnel was left undone by the guy who tabbed my exhaust. The SAME guy who flipped my hego sensors to read the wrong banks. Remember that thread?
As far as an alternator upgrade, I've been reading about the 6g just like in my S197. Apparently it's been done according to some forums found via Google. One had a pretty detailed list of instructions to include the wiring differences between the 3g and 6g which is not much.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 22, 2014, 08:37:09 AM
If you want the CATS ASS alternator install a 140A Chevy Diesel Alternator and be done with it. 2 wires and a few bracket mods and presto your charging problems are over. Have a good Sunday guys.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 22, 2014, 09:16:33 AM
I'm still open to ideas. Tom, what years did this alternator encompass?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 22, 2014, 08:48:47 PM
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 22, 2014, 09:44:03 PM
i agree, options options options......... these cars are not getting any younger...
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 24, 2014, 05:17:41 PM
Well, picked up a new 1 wire alternator today from my local speed shop. Power master part #8-57140. The power wire it comes with is -- get this 8 gauge. That will not do. Nothing in the instructions concerning running any type of fusing. That won't do either. The instructions say to run the 8 gauge wire from the alt. batt terminal to either the battery or solenoid. 8 gauge, 140 amp alternator, and no safety net.......
NO. JUST NO.
I'll be ordering the PA performance 4 gauge with the maxi fuse and using that wire. The fuse this wire co.es with is a 200 amp. I was wondering if I should swap it to a 175 instead. The alternator I got load tested 158 amps @ 7500 rpm.
I also added my second ground strap today. Alternator bracket to frame.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 24, 2014, 06:15:51 PM
My buddies cavilier when we both knew nothing about cars came with a brand new 12 guage wire with no fuse. it always ate alternators. now i think i know why...
lots of the pre 95 chevy trucks came with beffy alts and a single 10 guage with an HD package. i never understood why they kept running and charged with dual alts.
overall, ford had their shiznit together as a whole on wiring.
id run a 200amp alt. as an alt gets loaded down, say charging a.dead battery or jumping another car, the voltage drops down and the amperage goes up.
lets pretend it pulls that 158 amps at 13.5v's. that'sa bit over 2000 watts. when its loaded down to say 12v's, now your still looking at 2000 watts, but at 177.5 amps.
stick with the 200amp fuse.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 24, 2014, 06:26:45 PM
Got it. I haven't really STUDIED wiring since college. 18 years and counting on a degree I've never used in a professional sense.
Now obviously I'll remove the stock charging wire. The plan is to run this new wire and also the wiring for the other 2 fusible links that redirect toward the dash from the solenoid.
That solenoid is gonna be FULL. I've noticed the Mustang one has a little arm with 2,extra posts. Might be worth getting to clean up the clutter.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 24, 2014, 09:25:55 PM
You can make that post quite easily by going to home depot and buy some bar stock in the welding department. Or tractor supply also has an assortment of bar stock. Just make a strap with 2 holes and put a stud in one hole for the extra wires. By the way a number 8 gauge wire is plenty for that alternator. But installing a heavy wire is not a waste of time. I agree it must be fused either with a link or a maxi fuse. I have actually seen a guy wire his 120 Amp alternator with a 3-o wire. I had to laugh at it and the guy really got pissed at me. Some people go overboard on wiring. Good luck. Have a good Wednesday guys.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: EricCoolCats on June 24, 2014, 10:06:45 PM
I have 00 on the 3G install in the convertible. It is definitely not overkill. Clean transfer of power is never a bad thing.
Also, I have a 175-amp car stereo circuit breaker installed inline. What's cool is that, if it trips, it's just an arm that pops out. No changing fuses--just push the bar back in. Nice, simple, efficient. 10+ years on this install and no problems whatsoever.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 24, 2014, 10:53:40 PM
X2 on the breaker, but its expensive.
you can get post extensions off of the box crownvics at the junkyard for the solinoids.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 25, 2014, 12:17:47 AM
I started the car after adding the second ground..... No real change in temp. Still warmer than it should be, but not ridiculous like before.... Took the car to the local car meet I go to on Tuesdays as a friend wanted to see what was going on and it's hard to explain it over the phone, you know. It's only a 5 minute drive so I figured why not? This was the first time ever I actually went and took a fire extinguisher in ANY car for a road trip that wasn't to the track. Made it there and back with no issue.
I did take note of TWO things......
1. My voltage reads FIVE bars at idle with a few items on. I can't ever remember it EVER reading 5 bars before. EVER. 2. A while back I posted about on odd issue the car has had since I purchased it in 1998. When I would turn on the rear window defrost, the oil pressure gauge would read one bar higher and upon shutting it off it would return to it's previous position. After reading 5 bars on the volt gauge in the car, I decided to give that a whirl. On went the rear window defrost. NO CHANGE. I tried it about 5 or 6 times. Nothing. Before tonight it would do this without fail regardless of engine temperature or weather condition. It was an absolute. The speed of light is 186282 miles per second, standard acceleration due to free fall is defined as 9.80665 m/s2, when I turn on the rear defrost my oil pressure will read one bar higher.
I'm going back to the parts store I bought those ground straps from. I'm buying more and installing them in the rest of my cars...
A pic for reference. The red wire is 2 gauge for size comparison. (https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10479085_672185319540662_6729202040497612941_n.jpg)
Tom and Haystack. Thanks for the advice/ideas on the extra post for the solenoid terminal. Another thing I noticed concerning the solenoids in Mustangs. They all seem to use the terminal toward the rear of the vehicle for positive. Every Catbird I've seen in person has had the forward as positive..... I've also notice that some solenoids have TWO of the smaller posts as opposed to the ONE I've had on my cars....
Pics.....
This is opposite of my setup. I wonder why the difference? (http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa392/ryan8591/20120918_161249_zpsd0597f28.jpg)
Is the double small post for the factory PMGR starter setup?
Quote from: EricCoolCats;435136
I have 00 on the 3G install in the convertible. It is definitely not overkill. Clean transfer of power is never a bad thing.
Also, I have a 175-amp car stereo circuit breaker installed inline. What's cool is that, if it trips, it's just an arm that pops out. No changing fuses--just push the bar back in. Nice, simple, efficient. 10+ years on this install and no problems whatsoever.
I see they range from 15-25 dollars. Pretty nifty.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 25, 2014, 01:28:10 AM
The double posts all do the same thing.
one side of the post is always powered by the battery, the otherside is only hot with igniton if i remebr right. been a couple years though.
I'm pretty sure the double post is just a generic part. my autohole solinoid that only lasted a year had both and i think both triggered the starter.
the solinoid is just a the two posts with a ball bearing in the center. when you trigger it a magnet pulls the ball bearing into the posts.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 25, 2014, 07:25:24 AM
NO the single post crank lead is used when the ignition system does not need a resistor bypass circuit. Any ignition system that is void of a resistor does not need bypass so ford eliminated the lug. Also there are some 4 post solenoids that isolate the primary coil to faciliate a NSS switch. As far as which wire goes where on the heavy lug it makes no difference on some. But some relays have a buffer diode and proper phasing is critical. It depends on the year and application. As far as having these numerous grounds i am going out on a limb here and saying grounds are good but i have seen people adding so many it it ridiculous. Grounds should be short and sweet and tight and cross-ion free. Other than that i only use one or two max depending on the setup. Another thing people think having a huge battery feed to the alt lug is better. Not true. Once you pass a certain point i am going to say like 6 Gauge on a 250 Amp alternator the battery lug on the alternator can not handle the extra copper or gauge size. Another words the lug is to small to handle the current a o/o wire can handle and is basically a waste. Also A wire capacity rating depends on how many strands it has and how it is designed. Another words like a welding cable of lets say #2 can handle more current than lets say an automotive cable. The welding cable is the same size but has many many more strands to make it more efficient. Remember the alternator never puts out max current and normally runs at 1/4-1/3 of its ratings if that. have a good Wednesday
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: EricCoolCats on June 25, 2014, 08:13:13 AM
I see they range from 15-25 dollars. Pretty nifty.
Yes, exactly like that. I paid something like $20 back in the day. This way you never have to worry about carrying spare fuses or being stranded somewhere. I thought it was a terrific idea.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 25, 2014, 09:02:41 AM
Thanks everyone. I'm in a holding pattern waiting for my power wire now. After I put the car back together yesterday I washed it. Today it is drizzling just enough to make dust stick and cause water spots........yay...
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 25, 2014, 09:00:03 PM
With all these companies that make these huge alternators and claim hundreds of idle amps. Why then does Ford and chevy trucks come with dual alternators?? I wonder if there claims are a little sketchy. Have a good evening guys.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Aerocoupe on June 26, 2014, 02:30:39 PM
I have the 3G's on both of my cars and they have been on there for 10+ years. When installing the fuse the amperage rating should be the limitation of the wire between the alt and battery or the alternator's output, whichever is less. I run 4ga wire on both the cars and it is the high strand cable. Since both cars have the starter solenoid on the driver side inner fender the length of the wire is almost identical. I found a chart which shows the load carrying capability for 4ga wire over given distances which was less than what the alt could put out. I ended up installing 125A wafer fuses and have never replaced one.
I posted up how both of my cars are wired so I'll see if I can dig that up and post the link.
Darren
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 26, 2014, 08:16:14 PM
A number 4 AWG is a very good choice for an alternator battery feed. And protecting it with a 125 is smart. Not to big not to small just right for your application. Perfect setup in my opinion. Running a bigger wire with a 175 Amp fuse is a little overkill. And if that blows you have some serious issues at hand. I KNOW some fords come from the factory with a 175 fuse. I think for an alternator feed it is to big if something goes wrong. Just me. Have a good evening guys.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 27, 2014, 12:15:32 PM
Fuses are cheap enough. The car should never need to draw 125 amps..... I'll order one and give it a whirl.
On a side note, I am now $217 poorer in assorted hardware and miscellaneous stuff I've been meaning to replace on the car. All new, most of it Ford OEM. Battery trays for these cars are expensive.....
The wife & kids are officially all on summer vacation which means I'll actually have free time.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 27, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
Quote from: EricCoolCats;435155
Yes, exactly like that. I paid something like $20 back in the day. This way you never have to worry about carrying spare fuses or being stranded somewhere. I thought it was a terrific idea.
yeah, except for the allen set screw which distroys the copper when you tighten.
should be made with an elevator plate to "mechanically" bond the connection,, not "cut into".
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 27, 2014, 01:50:06 PM
Quote from: jcassity;435234
yeah, except for the allen set screw which distroys the copper when you tighten.
should be made with an elevator plate to "mechanically" bond the connection,, not "cut into".
If they made one with connections for ring terminal ends I'd order it and enough 2 or 4 gauge wire. I feel that would be the optimal setup. Would cost me around $80 to do the way I want by piecing it this way though.
Scott, check this out. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/200-AMP-12V-DC-CIRCUIT-BREAKER-REPLACE-FUSE-200A-12VDC/744155233.html
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 27, 2014, 08:08:30 PM
They do make them with terminals i think i sent Jay a couple of them. By the way you can install a fuse link that is in my view better and neater. Once again if you blow a 125 or 175 or 200 amp or any size fuse circuit breaker or whatever you are not going to be able to reset it. So resetting it and driving in to the sunset is in my view not happening.
You can fuse link a 4 AWG with a number 12 AWG and that is what i would do. Using a 200 Amp breaker is something i would not do. Doing that would allow the alternator to heat up like crazy before it blows. The idea behind fusing is to make sure you do not have a FIRE. Example would you wire your outlets in your house with a 50 amp fuse and number 4 wire. I think not. Sometimes more is not better and with alternator feed wires it definitely holds true. Use a wire size and fuse to satisfy you alternators output and leave the giant wire and fuses for electricians. I think Aerocoupe has a good balance with a 4 AWG and 125 amp fusing. Just me that sounds reasonable in my view for safety and reliability.
The owner of this gorgeous car we restored found out the hard way with big wiring and big fuses. It burned the wiring all the way back to the dash. Notice the bare wires fried to a crisp. He was lucky he did not loose the car and his house also.
I rewired it and saved the car by providing proper wiring. Notice there is very little visible wiring in the engine compartment. I hid most of it . Have a great weekend guys
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 27, 2014, 10:04:53 PM
It really is simple math and they have a standard chart to look up.
his alt puts out 158 amps at 13.8's if i remeber right. on a dead battery it is likely the alt when stressed will only put ut a bit over 12v's. that's what i suggested what i did. voltage x amps = watts. 2180 watts. divide that by 12.5 and you get 174 amps. that is the minimum id put in there if it was me.
the 4 guage wire is rated for 150-200 amps assuming the wiring length is 47ft.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 28, 2014, 08:11:49 AM
Quote from: Haystack;435250
It really is simple math and they have a standard chart to look up.
his alt puts out 158 amps at 13.8's if i remeber right. on a dead battery it is likely the alt when stressed will only put ut a bit over 12v's. that's what i suggested what i did. voltage x amps = watts. 2180 watts. divide that by 12.5 and you get 174 amps. that is the minimum id put in there if it was me.
the 4 guage wire is rated for 150-200 amps assuming the wiring length is 47ft.
Quote from: Haystack;435250
It really is simple math and they have a standard chart to look up.
his alt puts out 158 amps at 13.8's if i remeber right. on a dead battery it is likely the alt when stressed will only put ut a bit over 12v's. that's what i suggested what i did. voltage x amps = watts. 2180 watts. divide that by 12.5 and you get 174 amps. that is the minimum id put in there if it was me.
the 4 guage wire is rated for 150-200 amps assuming the wiring length is 47ft.
looks like someone gets it!
to calculate a wire size based on an engineered VOLTAGE DROP................. 11.1 x LL x A / VD 11.1 k factor constant for copper (can use 10.8) x loop lenght x full or 80% breaker rating / voltage drop (your desired allowable voltage drop. *loop footage includes the hot wire distance plus the individual piece of equipments associated ground wire lenght. this is important to consider voltage drop so add up the "full circuit loop length"
google this phrase "NEC conductor properties table" and use the "CIR MILLS" column.
i wont use 47 ft as the distance,, since i know the application and its the alt wiring to solenoid, Ill use 8ft for the hot wire plus i will use 4ft for the existing battery ground return cable to the engine block ,, which equals 12ft loop
I will only use .2vd for my "allowable voltage drop" I believe .2v is very high though for a low voltage application of nominal 14.4vdc source but in cars thats what ive been told is acceptable.
11.1 x 12Loop feet x 150Amps / .2 ( i am allowing for 2 tenths of a volt drop (vd) )
this comes to 99900 circulair mills of copper required to cover the design. refer to the conductor properties table and you will find 99900 is larger than #1awg but less than 1/o. use 1/o wire rhh/rhw flex
to calculate a wire size based on wire you have available to determine what the voltage drop will be.................
lets assume you have 4awg lying around...... the conductor properties table tell us 4awg is 41740 cir mills of copper using the same formula as above except substituting the wire you have available in place of the desired voltage drop........... 11.1 x 12loop feet x 150A / 41740 = .4787 volts drop.
in both cases above you can derate to 80% of your amperage be it your device being powered or your over current protection.
you wont find this formula in the NEC, cars are exempt from compliance to it. the nec still doesnt have a friggin clue on low voltage dc wire size calculations. I have schooled Mike Holts forums a couple times on this.. they are slowly coming around though.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 28, 2014, 01:12:21 PM
I have no idea what anything after you quoting my post means...
all i know is running model airplane stuff I've ran over 50 amps at 12v's through a single 12 guage wire. the wires are 3" long on battery and esc. i added a 1' length of 10 guage for a 30 amp setup and it would get hot. in sure a 6 guage would be plenty and i'd wire it straight to the battery using.less then 4ft of wire, which should allow tou to run a full 200amps through the wire.
id also upgrade the ground.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 28, 2014, 01:52:54 PM
Quote
id also upgrade the ground.
The negative battery ground? I already have the parts in hand for that. The one for the starter as well. Engine block straps are done. Gotta get to that one in the trans tunnel. Of course it's routed on the driver side where I can't get in there without jacking the car what with all the linkage stuff for the AOD in the way. I wither need a 3rd arm or another elbow on each of the arms I already have.
Scott was paying you a compliment. ;)
Tom, the links have done their job and I understand the reasoning behind them as opposed to a simple fuse. Once it goes it's not so easy to set and forget. Still, if a fuse DOES let go, I'm not the average guy to just reset it. Hence all the questions here. Once this is wired in I want peace of mind as well as ease of future maintenance.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 28, 2014, 07:44:27 PM
First off cars are DC not AC and have a reduced current factor as it recovers from start up..So a 100% wire factor is never used in alternator wiring as far as charging leads go. Secondly an automotive alternator can only put out it's max current for one minute by design, Third is the fact that the alternator sees a reduced load as the vehicles battery begins to recover its initial discharge . It normally takes 10-15 minutes from a start mode. So basically an alternator never sees anywhere near half it's load capacity. And normally 1/4 of its max load rating. And lets for example say it does. Using a 140 amp alternator you would be using half lets say at 70 amps and that is where the alternator would sit for 10-20 minutes and fall off after the battery recovers. So i am going on record as saying a number 8-10 AWG is where it should be at or around 10 feet on a 140 Amp alternator. And over the years using my SUN VAT i have seen hundreds of cars running with close to 100% load and not topping off a current draw anywhere near 40 Amps total after battery recovery. Just me and that is from experience. years back cars had generators that in a good day could put out 35 amps and cars ran perfectly and battery's were not undercharged. But today those loads are higher of course but the need to gauge a wire on 100% capacity is not how it is done on cars. Reason being the load is always tapering off after a cold start lets say. Also the wire lengths are very short distances as well. For example an alternator wire is never more than app 6 feet to the load the battery and the ground wire is not more than lets say 2 feet at best. But people are wiring alternators with 2 gauge wire. Totally overkill in my view and not necessary. Nothing wrong with big wire but fusing has to be appropriate. Once again would you wire you outlets with 6 gauge wire and fuse them for 40 AMPS. I don't think so. So looking at the wire size of many a cars and trucks over the years i have never seen a main feed alternator bigger than 8 AWG. Now in over the road trucks it is different. You are dealing with multiple batterys in parallel and sometimes 4-5 in certain vehicles. That takes big wire but normally those alternators are quite big. reason being recovering a cold start from a large diesel truck is high current draws. But then again it tapers off as the battery's recovers. have a good weekend guys.
His alternator will never put out 158 amps. Powermaster recommends a number 6 AWG for wiring for applications of 10 Feet for a 150 Amp output alternator.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 28, 2014, 11:57:40 PM
Guess there is no reason to upgrade then.
ac wiring is litterly 10 times the voltage. minimum of 120v's. a ten amp fuse on ac is ove 1200watts. your microwave or a hair drier are about the only thing in your house that could blow that, but ac is completely different as far as power goes. you will NEVER see 00 guage wire in a house unless it has its own transformer sub station.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 29, 2014, 06:29:30 AM
Stacks what you and others do not understand is an automotive Alternator is not putting out it's full power constantly. jay is figuring wire ampacity at constant load and full load. Where an automobile never runs like that. I am not saying bigger wire is NG what i am saying is in my career i have never seen a car factory stock with a number 2 Gauge wire run from the alternator to the battery. I have seen giant fuses like some Fords with 175 Amp fuses. Why Ford did this i have no clue and it amazes me as the biggest alternator option is 140A. Can you please find a factory stock car with a number 2 feed cable from the factory and post a photo of it. Thanks have a good Sunday Guys.
Example years back cars had generators and they barely were able to put out 35 amps . They ran and started perfectly. And those old gigantic engines were hard to crank. So how much more power does a new car use compared to an older car? 15 More amps maybe. have you ever installed a new alternator in a car? It clearly says do not install it until you charge the battery. It clearly says do not use the new alternator as a battery charger. Reason being in some cases the alternator will burn out if allowed to put out high current to recover a dead battery. Normally this is not an issue as i have jumped started hundreds of stone dead batterys in my career but alternator rebuilder's still claim they can not recover a dead battery and will fail. It is always better to have the reserve capacity of a big alternator no question on that. But another factor is how fast an alternator turns as to it's ability to produce output. Normally 15000 RPM is where an alternator will produce max output. The GM DURAMAX has a 105 AMP alternator from the factory and has absolutely no problem charging 2 batterys and supply enough power to power up a trailer with lights and electric brakes run a snow plow with no issues whatsoever. Now Fords come with a 140 AMP alternator and can barely supply enough power to run the truck let aside run accessory's like a plow ETC. Thats why they have 2 alternators from the factory. It depends on several factors stacks. And like i said i have never seen any stock car or light truck with a battery feed wire bigger than number 6 AWG from the factory. Some new er cars do and fuse fpr 175 amps. My daughters Honda does not even have a number 2 gauge from the battery. most Foreign puppiesanese cars have 4 gauge battery cables . Check it out . Good conversation Stacks have a good Sunday Guys. The Mark Lincoln uses a 175 A fuse but not a number 1 or 2 gauge feed wire. WHY??
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 29, 2014, 09:14:47 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435277
Stacks what you and others do not understand is an automotive Alternator is not putting out it's full power constantly. jay is figuring wire ampacity at constant load and full load.
yup, thats correct. .. i agree with your opinion.......... cant say i will tell someone to build a design like that without accepting the risk. if i were to actually size the wire personally, i would clearly understand that at max output there is an undesireable amount of ac ripple. where the ripple disappears is probably at that the derated amperage that rarely is ever told to you when you buy electrical parts. All things as you know have a "max" this and that......... but you have to dig in to find the useable value. its assumed the battery will clean up any AC ripple but then that brings in another topic of battery lifespan and damages due to it doing so.
in my stock alternator case of 65A,, im gonna call it a 65A alternator derated to 70% effeciency which is about 45A in my stock alternator regulator , i have no clue its max vs derated engineered design but i am very sure its going to add come impedence to the alternator performance but staying at 45A should be a good baseline to design around. its really really easy to see 45A load on your car with all things on including brake lights, turn signals, high beams , radio, hvac, heated seats, hitting power windows both at once. yes i just described a real load situation that can occure.
could you ever decide that during a power ottage that you want to get AC power to your home using your new 2000w inverter? sure. ~an inverter is interesting because of those available to the general public have such huge derated values, thier lack of efficency adds more impendence on the alternator above what i am describing here.
what i do say is that i totally agree with the loads you described, yet if you dont wire to the application, then your asking for trouble. i have trouble staying in the sand box because im over here thinking about all the crazy stuff people are capable of doing , or using thier car to do.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435277
The Mark Lincoln uses a 175 A fuse but not a number 1 or 2 gauge feed wire. WHY??
yeah,, thats not right. the wire shall be sized to be able to take the device load and tripping the over current protection device "before" the wire catches on fire. I suppose nec table 310.17 allows it to happen because #2 is good for about 190A at 90degC if i recall correctly. auto co's is not req'd to comply with the NEC so they must have thier own ref tables. insulation coating also lets wierd high amperages be allowed on smaller wire as well...
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 29, 2014, 10:29:48 AM
Which brings up the point that my shop has 400 Amp service fed with a number 6 AWG from the telephone pole to the building. Then connects to 3/0 cable feeding the panel in the shop. This was told to me by the licensed electrition that up dated our building to 400 AMPS
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on June 29, 2014, 05:39:16 PM
Considering that other than the charging system the car remains relatively unchanged WRT electrical components I wonder if even a 125 amp fuse would be overkill. Perhaps a 100 might be a better fit.....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 30, 2014, 08:11:48 AM
yes, your car as tom said will never ever see any current demands near that value. if you ever ever ever saw 70A i would be amazed. yet if amplifiers or perhaps a 120v or 120/240 inverter were used like i have in the past (750w), then thats where you add in bullet proof wiring / fusing.
since i have no auto engineering experience, I have to assume and recommend nec table 310.16 "in cable tray or raceway wire ampacity ratings. all our wires are in a loom so its not allowed to be considered "free air" if a nec table were used.
in your case, the only net gain is reducing voltage drop across the resistivity of the wire. its very beneficial because you know from now on what you read at the battery better be the same voltage you read everywhere else down in the hunderths (sp?) of volts.
i think the reasons people enjoy the 3g upgrade is that going from stock, to 3g, they experience an instant visual / audible change in thier car because they have crossed over beyond the "inefficiency" of thier previous alternator...... just my opinion though.
to go beyond a 3g means two things happened, -1- you added RV/ camping applications to your vehicles use -2- technologies have evolved so much that the load demands have made it so. soon to come to your new car will be such technologies either PC / Windows based or higher load demands on various car components. I actually look for the industry standard to evolve soon to 24v in cars.... seeing hints of its need already.
if the industry standard would to to a negative voltage platform (some call it a positive ground system..) then that would cure most all corrosion issues as well because your ground reference would be more positive than your voltage source. corrosion occurs during the exchange of negative electrons,, making the ground positive cures most all of this. Example, open up your telepone NID,, ask yoursefl why those tiny 22awg wires are not all jacked up with corrosion. its because of the -48v dc plant back at the phone office. positive ground use to be the standard in cars not too long ago.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 30, 2014, 08:21:23 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435281
Which brings up the point that my shop has 400 Amp service fed with a number 6 AWG from the telephone pole to the building. Then connects to 3/0 cable feeding the panel in the shop. This was told to me by the licensed electrition that up dated our building to 400 AMPS
there is logic... if you climb a ladder and go up to the weather head where the power comes in, using a clamp on meter read your amps on each leg... the power co has years of trend data that shows your peak demands and that value may actually be that low.
as for your AC guy, at the very least he was/is in the rest of the nation required to at a minimum use 2) 2/0 per pole or per phase from the weatherhead all throughout the downstream path up to the terminal lugs on the 400A rated MDP (is your main dist panel board name plate rated for 400A?)
3/0 is rated for 200A in raceway or conduit per table 310.16 at 75degC, rated for 225A at 105degC.
But, if he had a drug deal with the inspector, perhaps he got a way with it.
a 6awg aerial feeder from your pole to the weather head is exempt from the nec cause the power co provided it.
i recently found out why there are exemptions to certain national infrustructure disiplines, its so that in an emergency there are no regulations to slow down the repairs and especially during a matter of national security.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on June 30, 2014, 06:31:18 PM
Not 100% but the inspector said it was OK with the 3/0 to the meter and to the panel and i guess to the top of the building. But the skinny wires from the electric co kind of shocked me as the guy from the electric CO did not replace them with fatter wire. He claims that a 400A service is not a problem for the wires from the pole. He also told me if i maxed out the capacity of the wire i would not be able to pay the electric bill it would be astronomically expensive as he claims. But i needed more power and had to UP DATE. have a great evening guys. By the way the aerial as it is called i think is ALUMINUM WIRE TO BOOT. The installer said copper would be to heavy and rip out of the building in bad weather. WOW!!!
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on June 30, 2014, 07:06:04 PM
All power cable is a type of alluminum for overhead use. underground they use copper.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on June 30, 2014, 09:17:37 PM
yup, cheaper is the reason. for the same amp rating in copper, you step up one size in Aluminum to be equal to copper.
tom, if its your task to get the utility upgraded, call me.. I know how to "say" the right things to get them to do it. at the end of the day you can get what you want,, but you will pay. so if your demands to say you need it,, "if" you want it then you must pay for it.....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 03, 2014, 02:23:33 PM
The car is back together.
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;434991
I pulled the whole cable out of the harness and ran a new one with a 175A molded in fuse that I pulled off a 3rd gen Escape. It has ring terminals on both ends and the length was just right.
This is stock Ford factory components. Those wires are 6 gauge upon investigation. 6 gauge, 175 amp, alternator rated @ 130 that'll max at about 145..... I wish I knew the reasoning behind this. I'm seeing 2 schools of thought on this throughout every web search I've done so far. Run the 200 or rock a 100/125 or so.....
Right now it has the 200 in it. The only warmth was that of the sun on my back. All is well.
I still have the old alternator. I'm going to bench test it just to see what happened. My guess? When the link blew a diode went then or shortly thereafter as well.
FWIW -- I kept the stock charging wires, pigtail and voltage regulator pigtail in the car, taped, waterproofed and out of the way. I only cut it back where the initial fusible link that gave me issues was at.
Next trick: New TB and EGR spacer, elbow, MAF....
Running a 70 mm TB and spacer with a 73 mm MAF. Will be going 75 and 76 respectively.....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 03, 2014, 04:17:15 PM
I run it that way because it's adequate and I had it just laying around.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 03, 2014, 04:53:38 PM
Right, but in many vehicles it was designed to run this way. WHY???
BTW -- Voltage across the battery terminals on this 90° + day with humidity high enough for one to cut with a knife? 14.24
Considering that today's conditions traditionally will make it read lower that say 50° I'm happy.
I'll get some gas later and put her through the paces.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 03, 2014, 05:32:24 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see a 70 amp peak load if you have electronic goodies.
each bulb pulls a constant 1 amp load.how do i know this? I use extra tail light bulbs to discharge my model airplane batteries. 12v's. = 12 watts. guess what happens at 14.8? Its well over 20 watts. your car should run at 13.5-14.2 ish.
so, 8 tail lights bulbs. there is 8-14 amps. Two 55 watt head lights, another 4 bulbs in front. interior lights, gotta be 10 of those, plus your map lights, sun visor bulbs, dash cluster, lets say you have a 200 watt radio, might only pull 25 watts, but could spike quite a bit highet.
fuel pump, mine said it required 10 amps minimum, power seats, power recline, lets say you use your cigarette lighter to actually light a cigarette as i do frequently, that's well over 20 amps.
and we haven't even started te car yet, just adjusted seats, turned on the key and headlamps.
now why did these cars have a alt with a single 10 guage feed and an alt that puts out about 35 amps at idle? My guess is the same reason why they melted wires.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 03, 2014, 07:11:56 PM
Thanks, stacks, you've made my case for the factory charging system's inadequacy.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 03, 2014, 07:56:13 PM
Foe can you tell me as a dealer tech what the running load on an alternator is at 1/2 Load. The stock TC alternator is 65 AMPS and bruiser is 100% stock with no charging issues whatsoever. bruiser is a 1987 TC electric brakes power seats electronic ride control electronic fuel injection premium sound system electric fans and AC and i am sure you know the rest with a 65 AMP from the factory and a big battery to boot. It runs and drives perfectly and the 65 amp alternator handles the electrical load just fine. So much for the 70 AMP loads. Like i said the DURAMAX early ones came with 105 AMP alternators from the factory with a snow plow option. No charging issues there and the truck has 2 battery's. I think in reality most mechanics do not know how a charging system works. Or how it accomplishes it's job. Why is it that every ammeter i have installed or a factory one always reads ZERO after the initial recovery of the battery from a start. Hook up a VAT and plot a charging system current load. 70 AMPS is a hell of a lot of load. Have a good holiday guys
Stacks what you are doing is adding up loads that are not on all the time. Do you not understand this. It is like who cares if the seats draw a million watts. It is INTERMITTENT. If you add up every load in the car the alternator would have to be 200 AMPS CONTINUOUSLY. And no alternator in a car configuration can do that. Example how could an alternator supply that much current with a single V belt for example. Serpentine belts are different. But could you imagine the load it would put on the belt and engine if it ran at 200A continuously. Foe the reason fords have charging issues is quite clear. There alternators are not the best and they are under driven quite often. reason being the big diesel pickups have 2 alternators. CORRECT??? Stacks when was the last time you seen an alternator wire MELTED from a load condition??? Also charging voltage is not constant. If the battery picks up it goes up. If it is hot under the hood it goes down Basically an alternator does not put out as i said 1/3 of its capacity rating in amps. If it puts out 100% of it's rated output it will burn out IT CAN"T continually produce its max rated output it will burn out. By the way their are millions of cars on the road with under-drive pulleys. What does that tell you ??? So if you have a 100Amp alternator and under-drive it by whatever the ratio is and it still charges OK whats with that. Bottom line alternators do not work very hard at all. PEAK LOADS DO NOT COUNT!!! That is not how the engineers design alternators for cars. Peak load is never used. They do not count the cigarette lighter in the equation. Thanks and have a great FOURTH!!
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 03, 2014, 08:59:24 PM
I don't know what you've got, Tom, But when I'm running on a cool night, I'm pulling a constant load of 58-66 amps. I've made a few electrical upgrades along the way, sure, but my night-time load is greater than the max of the stock system. Winter before last when I drove the car, my loads were higher still, averaging in the upper 70's and low 80's (in fairness, after 25 minutes or so defrost shuts off and the EATC spins the blower down). This is why the factory system is inadequate. In winter, I would get a dead battery once every roughly 12 days before 3G. Some loads are constant, even a 130A max 3G will only push 85 or 90 at idle with stock pulleys, but my stock 60A unit mustered 38 whopping amps at idle. In summer I pull a minimum of 42A once I'm warmed up at idle (w/AC on and foot on brake). After 3G, I don't max my alternator out so that I'm drawing my battery down. Problem, solution, happiness. Nobody in their right mind should run under-drives.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 03, 2014, 09:53:43 PM
Well many run under-drive pulleys just look at this site. Bottom line here is that most cars do not have an alternator bigger than 100A if it is older and newer cars do not have alternators bigger than 140 and the norm is around 120. And none of them come with wire bigger than 8AWG on average, so one of us is wrong. I am not saying a bigger alternator is BAD. What i am saying is different units perform differently. GM alternators are the best bottom line. Ford alternators are not very good by design. That is why an F250 diesel needs 2 alternators at 130A each and one GM 105 AMP alternator is ok for Chevy trucks. I am willing to bet the total load of a modern car today is around 40- 50 Amps. And i am totally aware of increasing the wire size. But people go nuts. On another site a guy is using a 3/0 wire to his alternator. Itis getting rediculous at best. By the way my 68 Camaro came from the factory with a big pulley alternator and it's output is a whopping 32 AMPS. The optional alternator is 42 AMPS. Have a great weekend.
The Midnighter has a 130 3G and bruiser has a stock 65 Amp 2G. With that i am not saying an upgrade is bad what i am saying is those so called 200AMP aftermarket units are BULLshiznit and a LIE. Some companies boast there stock case ford alternators are 250AMPS. That is BS and i think we can both agree with that. Have a good Holiday FOE!!
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 03, 2014, 10:09:36 PM
Quote
Nobody in their right mind should run under-drives.
I've always agreed with this sentiment. Speaking of this, I've always wondered something. AFAIK, the stock size crankshaft pulley on the Cougars and Thunderbirds is the same as the truck pulley, which is LARGER in diameter than the 87-93 Mustang 5.0 HO crank pulley. Was a reason possibly to keep the alternator RPM's up a bit thus helping to charge a more electrically laden system at low engine RPM's?
In stock form, the redline on the HO is higher than the others, so an alternator behind a larger pulley on the non-HO would still able to be driven and not over-revved.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 03, 2014, 10:19:05 PM
I see under- drives all the time and surprisingly enough with no charging issues. Normally an alternator runs 3 times engine speed not to exceed 16000 RPM'S. Example i shift my Camaro at 7400 Rpm's so my alternator is spinning quite fast. But i UP graded it to 140 Amps compared to the stock 105 from the factory and installed a bigger pulley. So my idle charging is reduced but i have no choice as the alternator will rip it self apart if i spin it to fast. But!!!! Gm alternators charge at a lower voltage after recovery. normally 13.2 compared to 14.7 on most older cars. ECM controlled alternators run lower voltages for hot charging to increase MPG. In the future charging systems will be designed for max fuel economy. So i had to slow down my alternator because of the high rpm capability of my motor. Some foreign cars have a clutch on the AC and some on the ALT so they drop out at high RPM. Ford also uses a free wheeling pulley on COP CARS. It only turns in one direction and has a one way pulley. there is a lot of stuff coming out to save fuel and cut down on Para-static loads. The future will be interesting at best in the car business. Have a great weekend Guys,
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 03, 2014, 10:34:34 PM
Quote
In the future charging systems will be designed for max fuel economy.
Hmmmm...Voltage sensor across the battery terminals built into the car and letting the PCM know when and when not to power up the alternator..... Would a type of clutch or an electrical switch be more efficient/durable? Better yet, will alternators even need to be belt driven in the future? Electric water pumps, EPAS....... I would think an electrically driven alternator would be a logical progression. I'm not alone apparently: http://www.vanner.com/vanner%E2%80%99s-hybrid-beltless-alternator-released-by-vanner-for-allisonhybrids/
Packaging/size will need to be addressed for passenger car applications.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 03, 2014, 10:37:21 PM
Check this out. You can install one on your car and they work great.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 03, 2014, 10:37:44 PM
Yes controlling the ALT through the ECM will be the norm for fuel economy. I went to a denso seminar and the engineers showed us how the alt is shut down on highway speeds to save fuels. Some had clutches some were ECM controlled. The future is going to be either neat to some or outrageous to others, In my view a nightmare will explain it better. Take stop light engine off features that actually stop an engine while waiting for a light change and the engine starts instantly with no hesitation at all. The future will be NUTS to say the least.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 03, 2014, 11:13:27 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435443
Well many run under-drive pulleys just look at this site. Bottom line here is that most cars do not have an alternator bigger than 100A if it is older and newer cars do not have alternators bigger than 140 and the norm is around 120. And none of them come with wire bigger than 8AWG on average, so one of us is wrong. I am not saying a bigger alternator is BAD. What i am saying is different units perform differently. GM alternators are the best bottom line. Ford alternators are not very good by design. That is why an F250 diesel needs 2 alternators at 130A each and one GM 105 AMP alternator is ok for Chevy trucks. I am willing to bet the total load of a modern car today is around 40- 50 Amps. And i am totally aware of increasing the wire size. But people go nuts. On another site a guy is using a 3/0 wire to his alternator. Itis getting rediculous at best. By the way my 68 Camaro came from the factory with a big pulley alternator and it's output is a whopping 32 AMPS. The optional alternator is 42 AMPS. Have a great weekend.
The Midnighter has a 130 3G and bruiser has a stock 65 Amp 2G. With that i am not saying an upgrade is bad what i am saying is those so called 200AMP aftermarket units are BULLshiznit and a LIE. Some companies boast there stock case ford alternators are 250AMPS. That is BS and i think we can both agree with that. Have a good Holiday FOE!!
Not all Ford diesels have 2 alternators, Tom. In my career I've seen like 5.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 03, 2014, 11:16:55 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435449
Check this out. You can install one on your car and they work great.
I've got something like this on mine. I snagged it off a police alternator. When I shut down and the engine stops, I can still hear the alternator spinning down. Takes 45 seconds or so. 3G is a ball bearing alternator, so makes sense. It's kind of a cool sound.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 03, 2014, 11:22:21 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435450
Yes controlling the ALT through the ECM will be the norm for fuel economy. I went to a denso seminar and the engineers showed us how the alt is shut down on highway speeds to save fuels. Some had clutches some were ECM controlled. The future is going to be either neat to some or outrageous to others, In my view a nightmare will explain it better. Take stop light engine off features that actually stop an engine while waiting for a light change and the engine starts instantly with no hesitation at all. The future will be NUTS to say the least.
Auto start/stop is why we keep recalling 1.6L Escapes for localized overheating. It's got 3 independent, yet linkable cooling loops, to keep heat coming with the engine off and so on. It's been a big pain in the ass.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 04, 2014, 12:24:23 AM
We've really beat this thread to death.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on July 04, 2014, 07:31:21 AM
Quote from: Haystack;435434
I wouldn't be surprised to see a 70 amp peak load if you have electronic goodies.
each bulb pulls a constant 1 amp load.how do i know this? I use extra tail light bulbs to discharge my model airplane batteries. 12v's. = 12 watts. guess what happens at 14.8? Its well over 20 watts. your car should run at 13.5-14.2 ish.
so, 8 tail lights bulbs. there is 8-14 amps. Two 55 watt head lights, another 4 bulbs in front. interior lights, gotta be 10 of those, plus your map lights, sun visor bulbs, dash cluster, lets say you have a 200 watt radio, might only pull 25 watts, but could spike quite a bit highet.
fuel pump, mine said it required 10 amps minimum, power seats, power recline, lets say you use your cigarette lighter to actually light a cigarette as i do frequently, that's well over 20 amps.
and we haven't even started te car yet, just adjusted seats, turned on the key and headlamps.
now why did these cars have a alt with a single 10 guage feed and an alt that puts out about 35 amps at idle? My guess is the same reason why they melted wires.
for some reason i feel compelled to etch this^ in stone .... well said.
have you noticed the single yellow that enters the fire wall yet at the steering column it is split out into two wires feeding one common ignition switch terminal?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on July 04, 2014, 07:39:04 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;435441
I don't know what you've got, Tom, But when I'm running on a cool night, I'm pulling a constant load of 58-66 amps. I've made a few electrical upgrades along the way, sure, but my night-time load is greater than the max of the stock system. Winter before last when I drove the car, my loads were higher still, averaging in the upper 70's and low 80's (in fairness, after 25 minutes or so defrost shuts off and the EATC spins the blower down). .
WOW~!!! 66amps x 1.2 = a pretty decent over current protection size in your case.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on July 04, 2014, 07:55:10 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;435448
Hmmmm...Voltage sensor across the battery terminals built into the car and letting the PCM know when and when not to power up the alternator..... Would a type of clutch or an electrical switch be more efficient/durable? Better yet, will alternators even need to be belt driven in the future? Electric water pumps, EPAS....... I would think an electrically driven alternator would be a logical progression. I'm not alone apparently: http://www.vanner.com/vanner%E2%80%99s-hybrid-beltless-alternator-released-by-vanner-for-allisonhybrids/
Packaging/size will need to be addressed for passenger car applications.
this has been going on in telecom for a long time now......... http://www.phoenixbroadband.com/bms-system-description
drivers for the alternator would be firmware / software controlled.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 04, 2014, 04:52:29 PM
Foe trhings like auto shutdown a stop lights and charging systems that will be controlled by the ecm. By the way some already are. Will weed out all the novice and Saturday morning wrenches. Our new scan equipment put me back a pretty penny. And we still have issues with re-flashes. The dealers will be busy that is for sure. But in time people will learn the ropes but the future will be interesting for sure. Well have a good holiday guys. It is raining a bit here so our cook out will be tomorrow. Be safe
By the way the duel alternator fords are plentiful. We service a fleet of 19 350 Super Duties all with 2 130A Alternators. So one has to think why does ford install 2 130 units when these so called MAGIC alternators claim to be 250 Amp units. Ford would just buy them from those vendors you would think. But Ford knows those units are BULL shiznit and any mechanic worth his weight also knows as well !! Good article guys
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 04, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
Amps is only part of the question, not the answer.
watts is actual work performed. think of it this way, a water pipe or fuel pump. amps and volts are the size and pressure of the pipe. watts is the actual end product, lets call it gallons per hour. you could have a ton of pressure in a small pipe without moving a lot of water, or you could have a fire hose with very little pressure and we will get a ton of water.
Without know what your amps and volts are, you have no idea what your actually getting. having an oversized alt vs a underside one will not hurt anything. the actual load placed on the alt is based on load. low load equals a very long lasting and way understressed charging system.
another thing to consider is that a large alt at idle will likely far out perform a small one at max output. for instance, my 55 amp alt may only put out 35 amps at idle, but it will be really stressed compared to a standard 3g that will put out more then 70 amps at idle. the 3g will also take less power to spin and be a lot more efficient.
your battery size doesn't matter one bit as long as it can start.the car. once its started it becomes a load just like the rest of your electrical. at idle while stressed, our cars essentially run off the battery while at idle. this destroys the battery and puts a large load on the alt for no reason. I'm really tempted to see what comes out of the battery while the car is running at idle. ill bet its more then 20 amps.
a well designed electrical system will not draw any power from the battery. instead it should charge it back up. once its charged, it will no longer be a load and your amp draw will raise/drop as needed. an oversized alt will not take more power, it will not wear things out, and it will not melt wires if done properly.
has anyone ever played with the resistance of wires or voltage drop? Its not uncommon for me to see more then a full volt of power loss at the ignition switch. The tail lights themselves get down to 10v's or lower because of how long the feed wires are and the amount of voltage that is lost. this in turn increases amp loads to get the same amount of wattage to power the lights, and in turn eats up the wires as amp loads increase.
for the most part, as long as you have over 12v's your charging system is fine. the higher the voltage, the lower your amp load, the happier and less stressed everything will be (within reason).
The larger fuse and wire you run, the less voltage loss you will have, and the less stressed all parts of your electrical system will be. if your calculating voltage on the tail lights by grounding to the chassi, your only getting part of the voltage loss. even though its low as the entire chassi is energized, you still have to factor in the voltage drop between your power.feed and the negitive ground. you really sould mesure voltage.by connecting to the ground cable of the battery to get an accurate reading. this is basically pointless though, because if you used a jumper wire from to your tail light, then you have to factor in the losses of the jumper wire.
the only point of a fuse to an alt is to prevent a direct short between the charging cable and battery. as long as the fuse trips before your battery maxes out, you will not damage anything and it will cut power like its supposed to.
this is why i would recommend a 6 guage or larger wire and a 175-200 amp fuse.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 04, 2014, 11:30:30 PM
Ford's first PCM controlled alternator was on 2000 Focus. That's 14 years, and I can confirm that by 2012, every Ford had one. The depth of computer controlled function now is amazing, and Auto Start/Stop and PCM controlled charging systems, and multiplexed high-speed networks, gateways and so on makes sure that as a dealer tech, I stay needed. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Anyone wanna talk about Hybrids?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 05, 2014, 06:43:46 AM
Yep try some of the BMW or MB circuits. We deal with HYBRIDS all the time and our state says you have to be a CERTIFIED DEALER ONLY. So if we need to mess with some of the batterys we have to tow then to the dealer to power them down or properly disconnect the propulsion battery. Of course there is a state tax associated with it and licensing fees. The insurance companies are forking out millions on these cars. This in turn costs us more to buy insurance. So much for the TREE HUGGERS. I hate TREE HUGGERS WITH A PASSION!!!!! There ECM REFLASH takes 18 hours compared to a chevy 1/2 hour. Or how about auto Headlight circuits that set a service code if they fail. Or if they blow a lamp. Like i said the novice saturday wrench is going to be a stretch at best. But working in the collision business we have to deal with it all. Now how about 1234yf on some new cars. All new equipment gauges and procedures. Have a great weekend. The future is not for the NOVICE.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: jcassity on July 05, 2014, 08:06:46 AM
and to my 9 year old post ,,,, the technologies will generate more garbage in the planet because at a certain point, a piece of equipment becomes cheaper to dispose of rather than repair. Factor in todays range of upward/downward compatibility , i see this also causing vechicles to become garbage sooner. Technologies change so fast just lookat how long someone kept thier cell phone 20 years ago vs today.
and im not a tree hugger but i do love my planet and understand how she feeds and houses us.\ litterally everyone back then (maybe it was 2004) posted and disagreed. we are generating more garbage now per capita than just a short 20years ago, and the trash we are generating is becoming more and more in the hazmat catagory.
tom & Foe, let me know what you see if a hybrid has a low voltage situation in the charge system. meaning~ if you measure a voltage at point A,,, what is the current on that conductor with the low voltage. then~ tell us what is the current reading after the voltage problem was repaired. --i am suspecting there are going to be a boat load of switch mode power supplies inside those cars within the various sub assemblies and if so, then this is where tom will see the impossible happen,, ohms law will get broken right before his very eyes :)
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 05, 2014, 09:32:53 AM
Scott, it's not just cars. Look at the packaging some of your kids stuff comes in now so as to be tamper resistant. Some of it is so ridiculous that the kitchen scissors won't cut through and I have to resort to a pair of tin snips. For PLASTIC.
My Dodge Nitro has started exhibiting an issue where the sat/nav screen stays on after the ignition if off and key removed. These vehicles have almost every electronic component controlled by a single power unit that isn't cheap...... Looks like I might have to spring for one... This isn't rare for them to go bad either.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: thunderjet302 on July 05, 2014, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: V8Demon;435517
Scott, it's not just cars. Look at the packaging some of your kids stuff comes in now so as to be tamper resistant. Some of it is so ridiculous that the kitchen scissors won't cut through and I have to resort to a pair of tin snips. For PLASTIC.
So I'm not the only one who wants to stab the person who came up with those packages?
Prior to my current phone (Galaxy S3) I had my previous phone for 5 years. I've had the S3 for a year now. I'm going to try and keep it another 4 years, just to prove that a smart phone can last past it's contract.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 05, 2014, 06:35:28 PM
I don't understand the point in a hybrid. 52 mpg at an averagre speed of 48mph. i get 60 mpg at 55 and 50mpg at 65mph in my fiesta. They can build more fuel efficent cars. they just don't want to.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 05, 2014, 07:29:13 PM
Every time they increase the mileage they increase the emission standards and cars loose mileage. But there is only so much energy in a gallon of gas and you can not make that any more. Making the cars lighter is the only way now. Car companies are always trying to increase Mileage. That sells cars. Do you think if GM could pick up another 5 MPG they would not do it?? Of course they would mileage sells cars. By most standards engines are clean and fuel efficient today. And i do not think a prius is fuel efficient at all. As the matter of fact cradle to grave fuel numbers are better in a H3 hummer than a PRIUS. My LS3 Gets 20 MPG at 70 MPH all day long and it dynoes at well over 850 HP have a good evening guys.
52 MPG from a Fiesta. I am not buying that one bit. The AVEO is one of the best mileage cars right now and they do not get anywhere near 52 MPG at any speed
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on July 05, 2014, 11:02:38 PM
My point in making the hybrid comment was to illustrate how stupidly simple even a PCM controlled charging system is when held against some of the highest tech currently widely available in the industry. I've got advanced Hybrid training at Chicago Training Center next month, I'll tell you how it goes.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 06, 2014, 05:52:34 AM
Tom, on an almost all highway trip in my Focus I got 44 MPG. The highway rati g for the car is 38. To be fair it gets around 28 around town.....
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 06, 2014, 09:22:53 AM
44 is something i can believe. here is why. All cars are tested by the EPA on certain standards and on highway mileage simulated by varying road conditions. like hills ETC. So everyone in the industry is on the same page. But lets say you live in NEVADA where it is hot and the roads are mostly flat i think. Not 100% sure they are flat but just assuming they are in the desert. And drive at night when it is cool and you have your AC shut down. Sure i can believe you get 44 without no question. But 52 is a far cry from 44. Big difference my friend. So a TDI diesel gets 55 MPG in Europe but in the US they only get 44 APP. Reason is simple in Europe they tune for max mileage and not emissions. So that is why Europe is dominated with high mileage diesel cars. Hybrids like the PRIUS are not as common there because in slow and city traffic they get horrible mileage. My thoughts on the PRIUS is my own so do not take offense at this but the car is a piece of shiznit. Gets horrible mileage if you look at all the factors and is another rip off bestowed on the Americans as usual. States give them tax weavers and such and in my view a small American car does much better with fuel efficiency if all the factors are accounted for. Like recycling the battery's and mining the materials for the battery's, This takes energy and the bottom line is simple. The TREE HUGGERS are in control in this country and they are destroying it. Not all the rules are bad but most are. Have a great Sunday Guys
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 06, 2014, 04:02:15 PM
I got 498 miles to my last tank and put a whole 10 gallons back in. this was mixed driving, not straight freeway. about 300 miles was freeway. mixed in was also short trips to buy smokes at thr gas station, little 2-5 mile trips here and there. my average speed over that tank was 42mph. ac on, cruise control set, no fancy tricks.
and i did a rub along the salt flats from my house to wendover nevada. speed limit was 80mph. i only got 34mpg due to the 3k+ rpm at that speed. slowing down gained me nearly 1mpg per mile an hour, but i kept to 75-80mph. this is the standard 1.6, nothing fancy. my current tank is 100% city, haven't even touched 60mph yet, and I'm sitting at about 38mpg for this tank.
if you look at a geo metro, they were getting 50mpg years ago with no hybrid . they also didn't have the air bags, but id think technology has gotten us a bit further by now. hybrids are to keep gas efficient cars expensive and out of reach of most of us and make them hard to maintain to keep us away from electric cars.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 08, 2014, 07:12:43 AM
I hate to tell you STACKS electric cars are the future by the way the industry is going. Also Diesels and turbocharges will be on every new car in the future. As far as mileage goes all the technology in the world can not make more BTU'S out of a gallon of gas. So unless someone comes up with a chemical that makes more BTU'S than gas at present and does not pollute the air making the car lighter and raising the compression much higher is the only way to increase mileage. That is basically how it works to an extent. Of course the average engine is only 25% efficient so a new engine just might be the answer. Or building engines GAS with 12-1 CR and above. This is from memory of my college years when we were discussing engines and magic carbs that got 40 MPG. The carbs basically have nothing to do with it In general terms. But the old timers always said there was a MAGIC CARB in gas companies vault. have a good tuesday
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: JeremyB on July 08, 2014, 10:23:49 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435555
Sure i can believe you get 44 without no question. But 52 is a far cry from 44. Big difference my friend. So a TDI diesel gets 55 MPG in Europe but in the US they only get 44 APP. Reason is simple in Europe they tune for max mileage and not emissions. So that is why Europe is dominated with high mileage diesel cars.
How much of the difference is from the Imperial gallon (1.2 US gallons) and the easier European fuel economy test?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 08, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
Good question, especially considering an imperal gallon is .8 compared to the us gallon. 55 x .8 = 44...
A hybrid can never be as efficient as a singular gas engine. Everytime you convert.mechanical energy into battery power, there is a huge loss. gas engine we will say 25% efficient. they coupled directly to a generator, you lose at least 10% to a belt, then the generator will be less then 90% efficient. the charging process depending on battery type will only be maybe 80% efficient, then converting it from a battery.back to power the motor uses will only be maybe 90% efficient, then the motor itself will only be 75-85% efficient.
how is that better then a single gas motor?
As for an all electric car, the losses will definitely be greater between the power plant and your outlet, plus what every charging system your going to use, as well as how efficient the batteries themselves are.
the only way for an electric car to be more efficient is for it to run off of wasted fuel, or to be 100% free renewable energy. for the cost of solar panels to power an electric car you could easily drive for several years without breaking even compared to a gas car. its after those couple years that a electric car starts to make sense, assuming the batterys.stay up.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 08, 2014, 10:08:13 PM
The para-static losses are minimal on Hybrids. They solved that years ago. Jeremy when they do the comparison they use use US gallons not imperial. Many people assume that but people know there is a difference so they use US gallons as i said. In Europe they tune for MPG not emissions. have a good evening guys
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 08, 2014, 10:58:49 PM
It has nothing to do with parasitic losses. that's just converting energy back and forth, and only if you beleive the manufacture claims.
I've test over 20 electric motors and messured for peak power losses and found them to be highly fluctuating reguardless of setup. for instance, most electric motors are less then 50% efficient and part throttle, and most are less then 25%. That is only between the controller and the motor.
electric motors are very efficent at a specific load and rpm. everywhere else they're not even close to rated claims. factor in the couple thousands of lbs of batteries and remind your self this is all powered bty a regular automotive battery to begin with.
there is no way for a hybrid to be anywheres near as efficent as a gas motor would be alone. they don't make sense, they don't last, and they are expensive.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: V8Demon on July 08, 2014, 11:03:35 PM
Quote
there is no way for a hybrid to be anywheres near as efficent as a gas motor would be alone. they don't make sense, they don't last, and they are expensive.
For right now, yes. 20 years from now may be a whole different story.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: JeremyB on July 09, 2014, 12:39:32 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435654
Jeremy when they do the comparison they use use US gallons not imperial. Many people assume that but people know there is a difference so they use US gallons as i said. In Europe they tune for MPG not emissions. have a good evening guys
The V-dub UK website (http://"http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-gti-vii/which-model/engines/overview") shows 55mpg for the GTI. But that's 55mpg imperial, not US. The GTD gets an impressive 63.4 US mpg highway. However, that's using the European test. Add in a 30% knockdown factor and you're at 44mpg highway. Do the same thing to the GTI and you end up with 32 mpg, the same rating (http://"http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform&path=1&year1=2014&year2=2014&make=Volkswagen&model=GTI&srchtyp=ymm") as the US GTI.
Quote from: Haystack;435637
A hybrid can never be as efficient as a singular gas engine. Everytime you convert.mechanical energy into battery power, there is a huge loss. gas engine we will say 25% efficient. they coupled directly to a generator, you lose at least 10% to a belt, then the generator will be less then 90% efficient. the charging process depending on battery type will only be maybe 80% efficient, then converting it from a battery.back to power the motor uses will only be maybe 90% efficient, then the motor itself will only be 75-85% efficient.
how is that better then a single gas motor?
As for an all electric car, the losses will definitely be greater between the power plant and your outlet, plus what every charging system your going to use, as well as how efficient the batteries themselves are.
This thread be hi-jacked!
Not necessarily true. One big thing most (all?) gas hybrids do is swap the engine from the Otto (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_engine#The_Otto_Cycle") to Atkinson (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle") cycle. It decreases your power, but increases your efficiency (BSFC (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption")). The 1.8L Prius engine puts out 98 hp (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZR_engine#2ZR-FXE"). The Otto cycle version of the engine puts out ~135hp (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZR_engine#2ZR-FE"). In the Prius' case, the transmission (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive") allows the engine to operate near peak efficiency at all times. Reducing pumping losses goes a long way towards increasing mpg. You can look at the Gen III Prius's BSFC chart (http://"http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Brake_Specific_Fuel_Consumption_(BSFC)_Maps#Toyota_Prius_1.8L_2ZR-FXE_2010-") to see that the engine is kept at a high load at all times to reduce pumping loss and maximize BSFC. You can't do that with any automatic/manual transmission.
You can get close with a conventional CVT, but the Prius "e-CVT" is more efficient than a conventional belt driven CVT. Th e-CVT is really just a planetary gearset with the engine hooked up to the planetary carrier, a motor/generator (MG2) on the ring gear, and another (smaller) motor/generator (MG1) on the sun gear. The transmission is amazingly simply and efficient, but takes a while to wrap your head around how it works (http://"http://eahart.com/prius/psd/").
I can't remember what the actual numbers are offhand, but motor/generator efficiency is >90%. The system doesn't have any belts, only a few gear meshes, which are typically 98% efficient per mesh. While it's not very efficient to charge/discharge a battery - it's more efficient than throwing out 100% of your braking energy. This thread (http://"http://priuschat.com/threads/why-prius-can-get-50-mpg-even-at-constant-highway-speed.111186/") does a pretty good job of explaining the efficiencies.
If a car company could use a simple gas engine to equal the mpg of a hybrid, they would. However, they can't - so we get hybrids.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 09, 2014, 01:46:44 AM
That's what I'm getting at.
only the gears are ">90%" efficient. then you have the losses of the generators. which will be at most 90% efficent, if that much. then you have an actual current voltage conversion to get them down to battery pack voltage, again MAYBE 90% efficent, and then the losses of charging the packs and then the entire reverse order again to recall the energy.
a simple fact, everytime you convert energy from on form to another, you WILL LOSE 10% minimum. we aren't changing the gas to voltage. your changing gas to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, then you are regulating the voltage to a different voltage, then you are converting it to stored energy. then you have to do the revese, plus the losses in speed controls for the motor (another at minimum 10% loss).
There is no way for it to be that efficient. that thread you linked to is only talking about the "drivetrain" losses. none other. They would be better off with a gas engine, particularly for freeway. city the regenerative breakibg.helps where a gas only car suffers, but the added complexity of having 3+ extra motors/generators, two transmissions, and the hardware to make it work and 1000lbs of battery make it impossible to do the same job more efficent then that gas motor it gets its power from in the first place.
i can get 50mpg freeway out of my little 1.6 liter fiesta. i set the.cruise control to 65mph, set the ac on, click my seat back one or two clicks and im ready for a solid drive at 50+mpg. No tricks, no special tuning. a conventional 2500lb econo box.
the prius is pretending to be smart and eco freindly when nothing could be further from the truth. chevy and toyota already got together and did the same thing 20 years ago. they called it the geo metro.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 09, 2014, 01:53:40 AM
Btw, my cars epa freeway speed was at an average speed of 48mph. which is funny to me, every freeway more then 10 miles outside my city has an 80mph speed limit. my car does a whole 34mpg at 80mph. bet the prius is right near there or lower. the few people I've talked to with a prius bragg about getting 40+mpg.
the epa does not rate all cars the same. you can see that.by.the average speeds the cars were.tested at.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: TOM Renzo on July 09, 2014, 06:59:30 AM
Jeramie when the European models are tested here as a comparison they use US GALLONS!! Not EURO. And of course cars are tested differently i explained that because of gear ratios weight ETC, Also the REGEN BRAKING OF THE PRIUS offsets any losses. That as you say is why they build that piece of shiznit. Mileage numbers by smoke and mirrors. Also remember the PRIUS gets app 15-20 % of its mileage from LRRT. Either way mileage is a poker game. Once you know the rules of poker you understand it. YOU CAN'T WIN YOU CANT LOOSE BUT THE MAIN THING IS YOU CAN NOT GET OUT OF THE GAME. Have a nice day.
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: JeremyB on July 09, 2014, 11:43:08 AM
Quote from: Haystack;435663
They would be better off with a gas engine, particularly for freeway. city the regenerative breakibg.helps where a gas only car suffers, but the added complexity of having 3+ extra motors/generators, two transmissions, and the hardware to make it work and 1000lbs of battery make it impossible to do the same job more efficent then that gas motor it gets its power from in the first place.
i can get 50mpg freeway out of my little 1.6 liter fiesta. i set the.cruise control to 65mph, set the ac on, click my seat back one or two clicks and im ready for a solid drive at 50+mpg. No tricks, no special tuning. a conventional 2500lb econo box.
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying a Prius with the hybrid junk removed and a conventional gas engine put in it's place would get better mpg?
You can debunk that just by looking at current hybrids. Toyota has several cars that have conventional and hybrid drivetrains on the same chassis. A few examples:
2014 Toyota Camry Conventional - 25 city / 35 highway Hybrid -------- 41 city / 39 highway
2014 Toyota Highlander Conventional - 18 city / 24 highway Hybrid -------- 27 city / 28 highway
2013 Chevrolet Tahoe Conventional - 15 city / 21 highway Hybrid -------- 20 city / 23 highway
Also, the Prius battery pack weighs 110 lbs (http://"http://www.toyota.com/esq/vehicles/plug-in-hybrid/toyotas-first-production-lithium-ion-drive-battery.html").
Quote from: Haystack;435664
Btw, my cars epa freeway speed was at an average speed of 48mph. which is funny to me, every freeway more then 10 miles outside my city has an 80mph speed limit. my car does a whole 34mpg at 80mph. bet the prius is right near there or lower. the few people I've talked to with a prius bragg about getting 40+mpg.
the epa does not rate all cars the same. you can see that.by.the average speeds the cars were.tested at.
The current EPA test runs all cars through the same test. Some cars 'game' the system by their nature - aka ecoboost. But that is due to the ecoboost doing better in the EPA test than the real world, not cheating. The Gen III Prius is rated at 51/48. The fuelly.com average is 47-51 mpg. This guy (http://"http://priuschat.com/threads/updated-mpg-vs-mph-chart.64296/") gets 40 mpg @ 80mph and 55mpg @ 65mpg in a Prius that is 20% heavier, and much roomier inside than your Fiesta.
Quote from: TOM Renzo;435667
Jeramie when the European models are tested here as a comparison they use US GALLONS!! Not EURO. And of course cars are tested differently i explained that because of gear ratios weight ETC
Tom, it's okay to admit you're wrong once in a while. I have to do it all the time! :D
They don't use US gallons in the UK any more than we use Imperial gallons here. You can look at the UK VW website to confirm this. http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-gti-vii/which-model/engines/overview
Urban- 55.4 mpg/ 5.1 ltr per 100km http://www.calculateme.com/cGasMileage/LitersPer100kmtoMPG-imperial.htm shows that 5.1 L/100km = 55.38 mpg (Imperial).
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: Haystack on July 09, 2014, 02:29:58 PM
110Lb of battery and nickle metal at that. i have model airplanes that have less then a pound worth of battery, and the same sized pack would be about 60% smaller and put out nearly twice the power as the same sized nimh pack. we were using nicads 30-40 Years ago, nimh 20-25 years ago, lithium ion 10-15 years ago and lipo for the last 10 or so in model airplanes, although they have been around quite a bit longer then that.
The prius use a 6.5 ah battery at 200v. my model airplanes run 2.2ah batteries at 12v's. i buy them for about $7 a peice and they weigh less then 6ounces (5.81 with connector). so if i could come up with 48 of these $7 batteries, i woild have the same power as the prius battery. actually quite a bit more, due to the soc, and they would only weigh about 24lbs. Oh, and also, my batteries would be good for over 50amps continuous discharge, nimh will never get.close.to that.
and what I'm getting at with my fiesta, it isn't the high efficency model. its the biggest motor and lowest efficency availiable. Imagine what you could do with a 1.0 liter epa rated 44mpg freeway if that's what i can do with an epa rated 38mpg. there is no fancy.hybrid system. there are not any.extra batteries or anything else to get in the way. so why isn't the prius that much better?
Looking at ghe hybrids you posted, most are 2-4mpg better then the gas motor equivilent. how many years will it take to make money over that compares to buying the regular gas model?
Title: What in the ....?????? Low voltage reading, yet full battery and alternator working.
Post by: JeremyB on July 09, 2014, 05:25:07 PM
Quote from: Haystack;435684
110Lb of battery and nickle metal at that. i have model airplanes that have less then a pound worth of battery, and the same sized pack would be about 60% smaller and put out nearly twice the power as the same sized nimh pack. we were using nicads 30-40 Years ago, nimh 20-25 years ago, lithium ion 10-15 years ago and lipo for the last 10 or so in model airplanes, although they have been around quite a bit longer then that.
The prius use a 6.5 ah battery at 200v. my model airplanes run 2.2ah batteries at 12v's. i buy them for about $7 a peice and they weigh less then 6ounces (5.81 with connector). so if i could come up with 48 of these $7 batteries, i woild have the same power as the prius battery. actually quite a bit more, due to the soc, and they would only weigh about 24lbs. Oh, and also, my batteries would be good for over 50amps continuous discharge, nimh will never get.close.to that.
Using Li-Ion in your drill or quadcopter is a few orders of magnitude easier than incorporating it into a car. You need it to last for more than the 100,000 miles / 8 year warranty (150,000 miles/10yr in several states), survive extreme temperatures (which requires 24/7 conditioning), survive crashes, meet all kinds of Federal safety standards, etc. Toyota started off with NiMh because Li-Ion technology wasn't ready for the automotive world. The technology matured and auto makers begun using it. Toyota began selling the Prius v (outside of the US) with a Li-Ion battery in 2012. The 2015 Prius (major model change) will incorporate Li-ion. I think Ford started using Li-Ion in 2013 or so. Boeing introduced Li-Ion onto commercial airplanes in 2011, and that didn't work out so well!
Quote
and what I'm getting at with my fiesta, it isn't the high efficency model. its the biggest motor and lowest efficency availiable. Imagine what you could do with a 1.0 liter epa rated 44mpg freeway if that's what i can do with an epa rated 38mpg. there is no fancy.hybrid system. there are not any.extra batteries or anything else to get in the way. so why isn't the prius that much better?
Looking at ghe hybrids you posted, most are 2-4mpg better then the gas motor equivilent. how many years will it take to make money over that compares to buying the regular gas model?
The 2014 Fiesta 1.0L turbo is rated at 31/43. The 2014 Prius 51/48. The Prius is 65% more efficient in the city and 12% more on the highway. The Fiesta averages 36 mpg on fuelly.com. The Prius ~48 mpg. 33% better.
2-4 mpg is on the highway. City mpgs are 30-60% greater. Not many people drive solely on the intersate. If they do, a hybrid probably isn't the best choice unless it's a Prius (since they're ouright designed to maximum mpg).
I'm driving a rental Prius v this week. Need something that will fit 4 adults and (not at the same time!) my dog in the hatch area. Most similar competitor is a RAV4 or CR-V. A 2012 Prius v is a bit smaller, the same price, but gets 30% better EPA mpg for the type of driving I do. Real world difference will probably be closer to 50% given that I'm averaging ~48mpg in the Prius v with day to day driving.
The v certainly isn't a real riot to drive, but I do like nerding out on the 300+ PIDs I can watch/log on my phone.