1988 sport with 5.0 ~fairly fresh 5k mile engine, 20 over with gt/explorer lower / upper parts , SD EEC with 19lb stock injectors
swapped on tc hood, header and bumper cover this past winter.
oil being used is 5w30
coolant is the correct mix
bumper cover has perfect air dam with a perfectly intact black plastic air deflector (whatever its called)
Tstat is U/K temp rating
Radiator is stock type , not new but was flow and works fine
AOD transmission
Fan Clutch is new
We omitted the Efan setup the car had when we puchased from the member "PRIVATEER"
The issue~ temp needle is touching the "N" part of the normal which on this cluster is just below redline.
what are the proper combos of pieces parts to avoid this issue now that summer is here?
would getting the transmission fluids into thier own isolated core solve this temp delta?
would a higher temp tstat solve this?
would adding a metal angled air deflector in the interior base of the bumper cover directing air upward help?
would using the hood scoops help this? we currently have all the 2.3ducting parts still on the interior of the hood.
thoughts?
You say you eliminated the electric fan, and went to a clutch fan. Did you install the fan shroud too?
yes, fan shroud installed\
my son is only in for a few days so i want to solve this issue this week.
Stock 2 row radiator? You can upgrade to a 3 core stock style a la Mark VII. I picked up mine at Pep Boys. Made by Visteon who happens to be the OEM supplier of radiators when these cars were being built.
I honestly have no idea what this correlates to in degrees Fahrenheit. If it's 180 Deg. then leave it or even go colder.
Thermal or non thermal? What about the fan itself? 7 blade or 9 blade from a Mustang?
A dedicated transmission cooler will help. You can run it in conjunction with the stock cooler on the radiator or completely separate. There are a couple of schools of thought on which way is better.
I have a TC hood as well and I've always had the scoops open. Just make sure you have the rubber distributor boot installed. It's never been an issue.
I've never actually taken a close look at the stock electric fan setup in an 87-88 TC. Perhaps the fan shroud is set up in a way that helps move air from underneath. There are other guys who've run that nose with a 5.0. I'm curious as to what they do to cool off their rides....
Before we go nuts though, have you verified the temp by any other means besides the gauge?
Last, but not least.... No air in the coolant system trapped is there? Every time I do a drain and flush I get air.... Usually have to drive it a bit, let it cool down, and then top off after it's worked it's way out to the overflow tank.... This was true with my stock radiator as well.
7 blade fan
stock 2 row radiator
Thermal clutch stock type (considered taking out one bolt, adding a long bolt to crush the clutch and thus making it solid)
the temp reference i made was that i did not know what temp rating the tstat was. I was thinking adding a hotter tstat would keep the coolant in the radiator longer and make the inbound fluid lower temp when the tstat opens... maybe im bassakwards on this.
adding a higher temp tstat would only make it so that the water temp has to get higher before the tstat opens to allow the coolant to flow. Has no effect after that point. It's made so that your engine has a minimum desired operating temperature, but has little to do with the max temp. Max temp has more to do with radiator style, cap pressure ratings, and airflow. Also as for the gauge reading that high, that is where mine reads after I swapped from the base cluster to the full buttstuffog. It may just be your gauge. As long as it doesn't go up to the redline I don't think it would be a problem. On another note, fwiw, after I ditched my engine fan for an e-fan way back when, my readings on the gauge did go down a bit. It may be a better choice therefore, to go back to the e-fan setup. If nothing else, a 9 blade fan may be in your future. As far as locking down the fan clutch, I believe it was designed so that the speed at idle would be the same as if it was bolted solid, therefore it won't increase the speed it runs at idle, only that it will spin faster when cruising/accelerating. Just remember (and I speak this from experience) that thing will get LOUD at high rpms, (your TC will sound like a semi), and DON'T stick your hand anywhere near it when its running ;)
There should be some rubber flaps along the each side of the radiator tanks, attached to the core support, "sealing" the air flow from going around the core instead of passing through it. The ones on my 88 had deteriorated and fallen off.
yeah, we do have the flaps,, down on each side of the radiator.
i think i have a guage i can put in place of the sensor to see what it says, illiminating the cluster telling us a lie or not.
in my diy link i have a resistance value i should be able to read from the intake to the top terminal of the sensor,,,, gotta look that up because i forgot.
One thing I discovered from racing a late model stock car, was that running a higher pressure radiator cap actually made the car run cooler. We didn't run a thermostat, just a flow restrictor in the intake water line. We had an overheating problem in the 351 Windsor we were running, and I believe we switched to a 32-40 lb cap and the overheating disappeared.
The stock gauges are famous for not being accurate, so until you install an aftermarket gauge to get an accurate reading you may be chasing ghosts.
I highly agree with gauges sucking. My oil pressure gauge would read just below the n on normal. Hooked up a manual gauge cause i was nervous. 32 psi hot at an idle. Changed sender with new and still read low. the gauge is just lazy in my case.
Guys, these cars we all love are getting old. In turn there gauges are getting old too. Id put a laser thermometer on it and know for sure what the temp is.
Why ditch the electric fans??
Mine ran hot before the tc nose swap. after the new $89 mustang aluminium single core radiator, no more problems. i also didn't have any air dam or the plastic bits to deflect air or anything.
i have a picture of my guages running high in an irv thread somewhere. i was sure i was overheating until i noticed the gas guage was reading full too.
There you go, in a nut shell they've sucked from day 1, mine was all over the place with the half motor as well as 5.0... I finally installed aftermarket and with 195 T-stat temp generally ran under 200* on the highway(which is fine)... Idling with AC on it would creep upward till I shut off AC at around 230*... This was with stock two core radiator and the clutch fan...
Mach 1 Chin spoiler. Stylish AND functional. I say get more air across that rad, Either by scooping more up from underneath, or by swapping in an electric fan (I'm still running that 2-speed I built and it's awesome). Preferably both. Another thought: if you've got a TC hood, I've always wanted to get one and relocate my trans cooler to the hood port with it's own dedicated fan.
Have you verified the IVR?
well,
was in process of attempting that then i dropped the guage, fubar'd the calibration on it.
I'll go with that, however the guages for Temp i dont know for sure but they are such old tech that tend to trust them. Old tech buttstuffog is typically what you *will* find in most calibration labs to certify and calibrate your tools or measuring devices.
A laser temp reading will not be accurate , i have another temp measuring device that is a k wire which i can snake up into the radiator hose and with a dab of silicone, i can get the tiny little approx 22awg temp probe directly into the water while the engine is running ... going to do that this morning.
I ditched the Efan because #1 its not oem, and we wanted to lighten load on the 3g plus we wanted to go back to the fan we know is spinning regardless of the associated subassembly pieces parts or possible failure.
There was nothing wrong with Privateers design, I wanted to remove this item from my son's probable faults when he is broke down somewhere and needed to troubleshoot.
good info, thanks , serously considering options like this because at the end of the day, what we need to happen is the temp drop while moving about slowly in town, read further for update from yesterday........ pls dont bash me but this is yet another example of the high level of technical people we tend to keep around here.................... you'll see.
good point on the IVR,, reason i say this is mason says he is noticing that his system sentry is triggering a "low fuel" warning but the guage is higher than what he thinks should be low fuel.
this goes back to my earlier comment on the efan,, when we first got the car, similar issues but i ended up finding the little tiny "gray" resistance wire" that is parallel with the large GRAY/yellow conductor on the ignition switch had been chared and discolored. it finished breaking off as i messed with it.
i recut the least amount off and reconnected, iirc i soldered it one but will revisit that.
the resistance wire may be the issue.
update~
my son called me around last fall telling me his temp guage is reading kinda high now that he is constantly driving at slower speeds but at that time he had the standard sport nose and grille,, he said the temp needle was "sometimes" hitting 75%.
We jacked with it a little and i couldnt duplicate the issue.
He went back to charlottsville Va and eventually swapped out the temp sensor which to his opinion resulted in a "stay tuned"
fast forward to this past mid april and he called to tell me his temp guage is going up as the days get hotter.
he took it to a place that does coolant system flushes, and get this.............................................................
He was told by the tech that "you sure got a good water pump, see that water running", the radiator cap was off at this time.
I asked my son was the motor hot and he said not really, the place i took it to is close to my appartment.
I told him that doesnt sound right, sounds more like the Tstat is stuck.
fast forward to yesterday,,,, yes the water is flowing through the radiator with a bone cold motor so i showed him my 20th,, and what the water is suppose to do.
I told him the water should basically sit still and to a point eventually it will start to gurgle out over the top of the fill kneck till at some point the tstat will open and then it will start to flow,, but that takes a while.
Tstat was stuck open.
replaced the *Mother F*&*$& with a 195
I drove the car around like he does,he normally uses "D" for driving around town.
simulated town driving , simulated high speeds in "D" and in "OD"
The needle is "wanting" to maintain a position just on the edge of the letter "N" on norm for the buttstuffog cluster.
I call this approx 80% of scale.... i dont like it.
I am going out now to do a direct in the water reading and will update.
so,, the tech was wrong but i dont want to speak negatively like that to someone, i just feel like it was very misleading or he was missing some basic fundumentals of water circulation.
we have *not* tested the temps with the hvac on,, like tom mentions,,, that would probably have a larger effect on the max reading i was able to badger out of the car.
will have to take a look at the little gray wire on the ign sw which serves as the IVR resistance wire since its commone to the results displayed on both the temp and fuel readings displayed.
today .......
we ran the car hard then quickly connected our temp probe up to our meter.
the needle was just barely touching "N" on norm for the buttstuffog cluster.
thoughts? before we inspect the IVR 12v to 5v resistance wire on the ign switch?
during warm up for about 10min, the needle was just below "N" and the temp value on our meter was in a range of 194 to 198deg.
all this above mentioned testing done with no hvac running.
Seems about right to me. 200-220 is about optimal in my opinion.
Thermostat controls tempeture as long as there is enough flow.
my guess is your irv is screwey. unless you've blown your cap, your probably not overheating.
well, we did add this to the bumper cover.
very nice item, intended for a chevy colorodo but easilywraps around after you trim.
Again the bi metal gauges in these vehicles have been flaky since day one, a couple friends were complaining about operation of gauges in their '88 Sports when new...
Been discussed at length on NATO, some have subbed a LM7805 regulator for the bi-metal inside the IVR but resulted in constant low readings... Possibly a 7806 would give a more accurate reading, dunno if anyone tried the higher voltage regulator...
here are some pics of the chin spoiler with info.
all of which changed *****NOTHING********
inspected the ivr 12v resistance wire and its solder connection , verified it looks ok.
it looks like i need to verify the ivr output is 5v or not.... like tom said above.
Hmmm, you don't like the laser thermometer? I have a fluke 87, and all the attachments, even though the fluke may be more accurate to hook up...... In my business time is money (flat rate tech) and if the laser is off 2*-3* it generally won't mislead me too much. 206 isn't too hot, Id check that resistor with your meter. Good Luck.
no~ i was thinking for this application i wasnt real confident that my laser thermometer would get the correct value... reading surface temps and all.
i do like the laser testing.
Hey Tom,
i know you know this but for the benefit of othere.........
the ign switch gray / yellow wire has the parallel solid gray ~solid conductor 8.5ohm ~ resistance wire home run up to the ivr input.
if this is defective, have you considered or would object to the idea of doing a 22awg sol conductor with a series 8.5ohm 20w or 50w resistor i can get from Ohmite?
technically , i have modifed the ammeter to be a volt meter and have an existing 12v isolated source in our buttstuffog cluster now.
thoughts on this? and your suggested wattage..
or the other option you mentioned?
or should i just go the way of external guages.... which mason would rather make his oem one work again.
Doesn't look to be overheating to me. It's probably a gauge problem. If the hoses are firm after it warms up and the overflow isn't full and puking coolant the car is more than likely not overheating.
This. Put a quality gauge in it and quit chasing ghosts.
Like I said, mine sits in that area frequently. It's only if it starts to get into the actual red zone that I start to worry.
we are troubleshooting, not chasing stuff
we verified with a tool its not over heating.
we added a radiator cap today that has a integrated temp needle/gauge.
We stopped by the ford dealer to obtain a section of 8.5 ohm resistance wire to replace the existing yet ist no longer available.
we will tomorrow verify if i do have 5v arriving at the ivr input and if so, its easy enough from there.
we confirmed today that *IF THE HEADLAMPS* are turned on, this for some reason causes the needle to climb ever so slightly more up into the lower part of the red.
We confirmed turning off the headlamps causes the needle to drop a tad down to the lower part of the letter N.
we would like to fix the problem,, if possible.
its my understanding that the 96 taurus has a sold state voltage regulator, that would duplicate the specs we need and allow us to omitt the resistance wire....
this may end up being the mod we need to do because the dealer mentioned this was the last known most reliable regulated voltage system just prior to digital programed clusters.
we have *not* performed the slave realy mod for IGN & ACCY yet on this car so it may be as simple as a new ignition switch.
I see the Large Gray/yellow wire is still plugged into the ign sw along with the parallel gray resistance wire which we repaired a couple years ago because of this
same type of problem... ultimatly is the reason we omitted the efan to reduce the probable faults for my son to troubleshoot by going back to a fan clutch.
i am thinking that an 8ohm speaker coil would duplicate the resistance wire i need, ... will play around tomorrow, perhaps i can omit the resistance wire completely and sub with a sol 20awg wire with the in series speaker coil,, i just worry about the correct wattage and oem design parameters matching closely enough.
we will see tomorrow.
here is a pic of the rad cap we bought
That is a super practical and very cool add on. Really like that.....who makes it?
Yeah, that's swell. I want one too!
It's fine with the 195* thermostat. Actually running really nice at right around 200*. Now you just have to fix the temperature gauge :).
we just pulled the cap it off the shelf at advance auto parts.
be warned , it feels and looks twice as tall as your regular one,, for a moment i was certain it would not fit but it did.
atleast now i know how to calibrate the guage when my son gets home. we can now attempt to "make" the needle at its highest point indicate 230deg, making the middle about 180.
i have to confirm that only the gas and temp gauges are tied to the IVR though. for some reason i think the 88 may be different, gotta check the 88 evtm
Is that a "Mr. Gasket" logo I see? I would love to get one of these caps for every vehicle I own! Good luck on your repair. It seems like you are on the right track.
yes, Mr Gasket Thermo cap,,
i think it was like 27$
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My 87 last summer at the end of a 45 mile drive. killed the ignition for 30 seconds then took the second picture.
84mph in Park ehh? Pretty slick. I like how both your fuel and temp gauge are pegged, Id see what they both share, maybe that nifty resistor coming off the ignition switch???
84Kph in 1st gear, about 15-20mph.
Car has a stick shift and oss reads 4 times too high. kph wraps the speedo quicker as 6kph = an actual 1mph speed. 35-75 mph read 85 in standard. switching to metric gives me numbers to look at when driving.
Well....................
I worked too hard all day, was kinda hoping to come on here, relax with a beer, and read that it was all fixed.
im not done yet, have a thread on electrical tech discussing an electrical solution... then i will update this thread.
we are not actually overheating.. by the looks of things.
Did you measure the voltage coming out of your resistor? Do you know for sure that is the issue? And if you did measure, what is it reading? If your gauge's are slightly off, id bet your at 6-7 volts instead of 5v. If it was 12v it would probably be skewed all the way to the right like in the photos above. Good luck and keep us posted.
Scott, you need to get this all figured out for me so i don't have to work as hard to fix mine ;).
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thanks tom, yep, thats one of the readings i took.
i just had a thought......... i wonder "IF" the sender resistance is too high in the aftermarket units... depending on what vendor made it.
if the resistance is too hight in the mid resistance scale, then that would answer why everything seems normal , but the needle is just high.
if this is the case then yes i would certainly find it much easier to calibrate with a combo of resistors at the sendor.
all three of my senders read about the same resistance value on the work bench though... and they are from different places.
i am also starting to wonder if what haystack said before could possibly be true,, my regulator on the alternator is going bad, but not bad enough now to fail... thus its putting out too much voltage.
with KOEO, we had 12.1vdc at the ignition switch though so i really didnt have a reason to check the alternator output.. yet the condition i am experiencing could be associated to the regulator,, especially when i add load like lighting, the alt would attempt to compensate.
thanks!
by the way, make a note in your manual there,, the oil gauge is not on the IVR,,, the statement is true for the 2.3L,, i think the oem shop manuals simply forgot to add this difference, then aftermarket support manuals kept the error by default.
son is in charlottsville va now so testing and such as been delayed due to distance.
He is picking up a few small as possible resistors to parrallel them in line with the sendor, also i will ask if he can swap in his back up alt voltage regulator
Here we go jay this is how it is done.
http://1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/ml-instrument-voltage-regulator64.html
thanks! saving this thread
Jay you can use inline resistance to balance gauge readings against engine temp at the sender. And you can separate each gauge to a dedicated voltage reducer (5V) Split to remove the variable impedance of the other gauges. Remember the impedance is constantly changing whether you gas Gauge is full 1/2 or ETC. Or when the temp or oil gauge varies. This is why a pulsing voltage was chosen. Not to mention back then they never thought of doing it electronically. Once those gauges are balanced they work very accurately. Also i am a believer of lights and buzzers for critical info like oil pressure. Nothing gets your attention faster than a light and buzzer system. But i understand having the stock gauges is mandatory for atmosphere. Also Ford seems to be the only car company that uses resistance before the Gauges. For the life of me i do not know why?? Maybe they want reduced voltage to the gauges at various indications and higher load factors from the gauge. No other car line uses it that i can find. And i have been messing with this for years. Best bet is individual feeds and i know that works excellent for all 3 gauges. I thought i sent you some of those push in Aviation type indicator lamps in Green Red and amber. If not let me know if you need some. Or want to incorporate visual indication as well as buttstuffog gauge readings. I also thought i threw in some buzzer units as well. Have a great day everyone
my 20th does all that early warning stuff, not so on the oldes sons bird.
i did use one of your lights on the Ghia, tiny led white that illuminates the new center console i added around the wifes stick shift.
i imagine in your article i could remove and replace the oem resistance wire..... yet i believe i have an update.
for the record,,
and yes i was neglegent in mentioning this.....................
when my son and i were adding the strut tower brace and investigating the temp gauge issue in tandom, the door was open for about an hour or so.
the battery went dead and we had to jump it.
thats telling me that what stacks said earlier might have some real value. in my words, i said to Mason "that aint right", "that light shouldnt have drawn down that battery that quickly"
talked to my son last night and he said he would look into getting a new battery.
I commonly leave my radio and door open when working on the.car. sometimes for 5 or more hours straight.