Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Ramos617 on February 06, 2014, 04:01:19 AM
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 06, 2014, 04:01:19 AM
Ok so I was replacing the Orings on my injectors since one of them was leaking right Got them all on the car and I took off the distributor cap to move the spark plug wires out of the way, I seen that it needed to be replaced since the center contact inside the cap was damaged. I put on a good one I had laying around, got everything buttoned up and started the car It obviously wasn't running right and was misfiring I finally came up with the conclusion that the rotor in the dist must have been shorter than what was needed for the new cap that I put on. I put on a different rotor and it finally started up fine and sounded like all cylinders were firing correctly but now my car has a very loud knock from what I think is the head/valvetrain Could some really have been damaged from the misfiring that happened? I just had to step away so I could calm down, anybody ever had anything like this happen? Really hoping it isn't something serious but I'm kind of doubting that
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: jcassity on February 06, 2014, 10:05:19 PM
well !
that chunk of "the button" went somewhere.
get your rotor button off get the round fin thingy off that passes through the pick up module down in the dizzy,, mark it so you you dont put it on wrong cause i think you can. see if you got garbage down on the magetic pick up.
other than thay.. id say its spark related... its gotta be,, and im just reaching here.
all you did was change out the cap and button.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: vinnietbird on February 06, 2014, 11:37:29 PM
Is it possible you have two wires in the wrong firing order?
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 07, 2014, 12:56:30 AM
I will see if there is anything in dizzy, as of right now it sounds like all cylinders are firing and it runs fine except for that knock I'm still not driving it around because the knock is too loud for me to think my engine is just fine.
Quote from: vinnietbird;428547
Is it possible you have two wires in the wrong firing order?
Thats what i thought was wrong as well at first but i checked and the order was correct. After I swapped the rotor to match the new used cap it ran just fine minus the knock...
heres a vid http://youtu.be/XOgrfc-4-Ss
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: jcassity on February 07, 2014, 01:01:08 AM
well, then id say your spark plug wires need looked at,,, you may have sparated the metal clip from the conductor in the plug wire,, making spark delivery difficult or not at all.
lack of spark on a cylinder will generate a knocking noise
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 07, 2014, 04:47:47 AM
When it's running pull each plug wire off one at a time. The knock may go away or diminish a bit, you may find what cylinder is the issue. Possible could anything fell in the injector hole and ishiznitting on top of the piston against the head?
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 07, 2014, 07:23:44 AM
DO NOT OPEN CIRCUIT A TFI IGNITION SYSTEM BY REMOVING WIRES FROM A RUNNING ENGINE. You will FRY the TFI module and PIP.
OK it is a 2,3 the video you posted clearly sounds like a ROCKER arm issue. NOW if you were turning the engine over without it starting those HLA lifters bleed down. Then when you start them up they need time to pump up. That sound is classic lifter bleed down. NOW????? Look at the injectors did any of the tips fall off. If so and this is just a long shot it is inside the engine. That is the only other issue . BUT in all my years i have never seen this happen. Some say it can but i dought it. Your engine sounds like a collapsed lifter situation. Just a question there is only 2 2.3 DIZZYS for that setup. The GM STYLE and Ford and they are totally different rotors. Cap is a wash. I can not figure what you did with the DIZZY?? Either way remove the cap and make sure nothing fell down in to the dizzy body. Could have> But that engins sounds like a classic lifter bleed down. Run it to see if the lifters PUMP UP. Those 2.3 Fords are very strong!!
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 08, 2014, 01:55:09 PM
I've been doing that for years, never fried a tfi or anything. I'm sure you know. I didn't see the video till now either Does sound like top end.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 08, 2014, 01:58:11 PM
WRONG WAY TO DO IT. Just because something is dun does not mean it is correctly dun!! Not to mention it could be dangerous for the guy performing thisjust saying. There is right ways and wrong ways to do things.
If you like i can take a current graph from my scope open circuiting Secondary side wiring!!
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 08, 2014, 02:06:19 PM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;428639
WRONG WAY TO DO IT. Just because something is dun does not mean it is correctly dun!! Not to mention it could be dangerous for the guy performing thisjust saying. There is right ways and wrong ways to do things.
If you like i can take a current graph from my scope open circuiting Secondary side wiring!!
No need.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 08, 2014, 02:07:49 PM
Open circuiting the secondary side of an ignition system increased the current draw in the primary by 10X the normal running current. And especially the TFI system which every ford guy knows is marginal at best when working correctly. Also the risk of shock is not something to take lightly. As a TFI system will produce 60K of secondary voltage open circuited. Years back with wimpy Point systems we used to do this but not on a modern electronically controlled car. Just passing on info . No, Worry's!!
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 08, 2014, 05:46:10 PM
Wow I am stumped I found out that cylinder #4 is not firing I tested the spark plugs, wires, injectors, everything and it all checks out good All injectors are getting voltage and working properly Compression #'s : 137 , 140, 110 , 133 firing order: 1,3,4,2 But these pressure numbers were very similar to my previous compression test so I don't think this has anything to do with the prob
The only thing that comes to mind is a mechanical problem
I just don't know how this problem came up from me not even driving the car, my car has been in the driveway the whole time
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Clayton on February 08, 2014, 08:27:18 PM
Hows the timing belt? Might it have slipped a tooth? Also check the distributor for play or shaft waller. And also they have a tendency to chew drive gears. Might be somthing totally stupid just ideas
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: TOM Renzo on February 09, 2014, 02:11:32 PM
A follower fell off the cam. That noise is a rocker issue plain and simple. Pull the valve cover. That noise is classic cam or slider problems!!
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 09, 2014, 02:45:57 PM
Yea that's definitely possible I pulled the VC off but didn't see anything out of the ordinary Perhaps a rocker arm is bent or maybe a tweaked valve Idk Last night I pretty much ruled out everything except mechanical, it's getting air, fuel, and spark, even replaced the timing belt since it needed it and timing it on point Still making that awful noise so I will take off the cam and see if anything is out of whack
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 11, 2014, 04:18:32 AM
I took a real good look and didn't find anything wrong Everything looks to be in tip top shape as a matter of fact Hlas seem to be fine but I don't really know to test them Anybody else have an idea of what could be wrong? Compression tests were normal as far as last time I tested around a year ago so I don't think a valves are bent I'm at a loss here and I really need my car back on the road Could it be the bottom end, I really doubt it is.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: jcassity on February 11, 2014, 09:41:57 AM
are you absolutly sure each plug wire is sparking? you can undo each plug wire then stuff any old spark plug that is good then gator clip the threads of the spark plug to chassis. i dont know how to prevent the injectors from firing on the 2.3,, should be a connector you can undo while you crank so you dont dump fuel while cranking / testing for spark.
crank the motor up at the starter relay with your hand held trigger switch or a regular household light switch.
next you would want to verify the injectors... borrow a small light bulb like the ones in your dash and rig up a couple gator clips ,, unplug each injector and form it into your home made *two wire* test light... light should blink as you crank. you need to connect to both the wires in the injector connector. the 12v is typically constant on the top of each injector,, the ground is being switched off and on by the computer. if your certain you have power to the top of each injector,, then you can use your normal test light from + battery up to the ground of each injector with an inline blocking doide. or........... if you have a spare injector,, then just plug it into the injector engine harness,, crank and "feel" for the test injector "clicking"
dial in TDC on each cylinder,, i think they are 90deg out of phase on the 2.3L in direct firing order and rotating the crank in the normal direction as running. follow the up and ready piston with a screwdriver to feel for tdc once you get close or want to verify. stuff a garden hose up in the empty spark plug hole and blow real hard.. compare that test to other cylinders. you should be able to barely if at all get any air to go in. ~typically an air compressor with a leak down tester is used here but this gets you started. if you can get air to pass through, then you found your issue.
at what point did you change the timing belt? much earlier than the post you mention or did you change it as a result of the motor not acting right? i dont know if the 2.3 is a interference motor or not,, if it is... well ,, different topic.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: jcassity on February 11, 2014, 09:51:32 AM
and...... so ,,,,,,,, i assume cyl 4 is *now firing*?
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Chrome on February 11, 2014, 10:10:42 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;428643
Open circuiting the secondary side of an ignition system increased the current draw in the primary by 10X the normal running current. And especially the TFI system which every ford guy knows is marginal at best when working correctly. Also the risk of shock is not something to take lightly. As a TFI system will produce 60K of secondary voltage open circuited. Years back with wimpy Point systems we used to do this but not on a modern electronically controlled car. Just passing on info . No, Worry's!!
I found a real neat spark tester yesterday. It plugs in-line between the spark plug and the spark plug cable.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 12, 2014, 09:13:44 PM
Ok I went through the whole process using your method and each spark plug, wire, and injector check out good Each injector is also getting voltage I haven't done the leak down test yet but I will soon The 2.3t isn't an interference engine luckily and I changed the timing belt when I checked to see if the cam, aux, and crank were all in time so I figure I might as well change it since I've never changed it
Quote from: jcassity;428751
are you absolutly sure each plug wire is sparking? you can undo each plug wire then stuff any old spark plug that is good then gator clip the threads of the spark plug to chassis. i dont know how to prevent the injectors from firing on the 2.3,, should be a connector you can undo while you crank so you dont dump fuel while cranking / testing for spark.
crank the motor up at the starter relay with your hand held trigger switch or a regular household light switch.
next you would want to verify the injectors... borrow a small light bulb like the ones in your dash and rig up a couple gator clips ,, unplug each injector and form it into your home made *two wire* test light... light should blink as you crank. you need to connect to both the wires in the injector connector. the 12v is typically constant on the top of each injector,, the ground is being switched off and on by the computer. if your certain you have power to the top of each injector,, then you can use your normal test light from + battery up to the ground of each injector with an inline blocking doide. or........... if you have a spare injector,, then just plug it into the injector engine harness,, crank and "feel" for the test injector "clicking"
dial in TDC on each cylinder,, i think they are 90deg out of phase on the 2.3L in direct firing order and rotating the crank in the normal direction as running. follow the up and ready piston with a screwdriver to feel for tdc once you get close or want to verify. stuff a garden hose up in the empty spark plug hole and blow real hard.. compare that test to other cylinders. you should be able to barely if at all get any air to go in. ~typically an air compressor with a leak down tester is used here but this gets you started. if you can get air to pass through, then you found your issue.
at what point did you change the timing belt? much earlier than the post you mention or did you change it as a result of the motor not acting right? i dont know if the 2.3 is a interference motor or not,, if it is... well ,, different topic.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Haystack on February 12, 2014, 09:33:34 PM
You can fire the investors manually by turning the dist back and forth and verify they are firing.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Ramos617 on February 12, 2014, 09:34:36 PM
And also last time I checked cyl #4 was not running
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: Haystack on February 12, 2014, 09:58:50 PM
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=588.0
if you have you spark, you should have fuel. if one injection isn't firing, it almost has to be a bad wire, or bad injector.
If it were me, id pull the computer out and check for continuity between the computer and the #4 fuel injector. if it tests bad, id try the main harness plugs.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: jcassity on February 12, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
the eec switches the ground off and on,, so gettng power to each injector you said is verified. easy test here, use a small bulb & socket to plug into the injector plug itself then crank the engine ,, the light should blink as the dizzy rotates.
i suppose you coud also see if the plugs are wet,, each would be damp if you've been cranking
there is a metal ring that spins around in circles in the dizzy that passes through the hull effect or stator assembly down in the dizzy. one of them is narrower which denotes cylinder 1 so the cmputer knows where its at. if one of those fins are bent becaue something on the old cap fell in and jammed ,, it would have dmaged the hull effect,, yet you "shouldnt" have spark .. depends on the speculatory damage im speaking to though.
Haystack,, rotating the dizzy should only trip off the injector next in line to fire,, should trip them all off.. just a thougt but it will tell him if "the one" is or isnt.
Title: Having some real bad luck, help.
Post by: jcassity on February 12, 2014, 11:04:28 PM
whats going on under the valve cover by the way,, had time to get to that yet,, i know its a pita