Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: marianadeeps on December 09, 2013, 03:00:00 PM
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: marianadeeps on December 09, 2013, 03:00:00 PM
Hi,
This must've been covered somewhere before but I can't find it. I have a non-roller 5.0 88 LX. It's an engine with 120K miles but still runs great. Still stock with E6 heads, SO. I've acquired some used E7 heads, hydraulic lifters, HO cam, push rods, (19# injectors, A9P and HO upper intake, TB, HO MAF). Can I just replace all that and have a roller engine with 225 HP? I probably need to buy some roller rockers since the heads didn't come with them. Would it even be worth it with the amount of miles on the engine? What else would I need? Double timing chain?
Thanks
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: 5.0thunderbird on December 09, 2013, 05:22:04 PM
If you're going to do all that you might as well rebuild the whole engine but 120,000 isnt too terrible. If its an 88 block it should be a roller block. In the lifter valley there should be 2 holes where you could mount the roller spider to hold down all the lifter dog bones.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: White85GS on December 09, 2013, 06:05:09 PM
wait.. not all multiport 5.0's (SO or HO) had rollers? I thought they did, throttle body had flat tappets, and multiport had rollers.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: Beau on December 09, 2013, 06:55:23 PM
My advice: keep the cam, and injectors, sell the rest, and find a complete and running Explorer engine. Swap in the HO cam (it has more upper RPM power) and right out of the box you'll already have better heads and intake. As an aside, you can also put on a mass air conversion, and use the A9P EEC. Grab some good headers (BBK 1515's work great, especially with GT40-P heads) a good X or H pipe, and and a cat back kit from a stang, modify the mid pipes and tails to fit the longer wheelbase of the tbird/cougar, and enjoy it immensely. It will have more power and torque than a 5.0 with E7 and an HO intake, simply because the heads and intake flow better. If you add a bigger TB (65mm would work well) you'd have it pretty nice and drivable.
Some folks reported that they were getting 300 horsepower with that setup with a tune on it...who knows for sure, but for the same amount of work, it's very worth it. Going from an HO to an explorer engine in mine made it feel like it was 50 cubes bigger...
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on December 09, 2013, 07:18:46 PM
ALL SEFI engines are roller, if yours isn't then it isn't the original engine...
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: marianadeeps on December 09, 2013, 08:44:21 PM
TC50, how do I tell if my engine is a roller without taking it apart? It is the original engine, but I was told that only the HO's are roller.
Thunderbird Sport 302, good advice, know anyone selling a running explorer engine like you describe? I have an catless x-pipe (need the tail pipes though) and BBK headers all ready to go (not sure if they fit 'P' headers though). I was planning on porting the E7 heads and the HO intake but I guess that doesn't get me to GT40 territory. There is a cost issue with buying the engine (of uncertain origin) $500 - $1000 and then having someone install/swap it -- another $1000.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 09, 2013, 08:50:16 PM
Quote from: marianadeeps;425425
TC50, how do I tell if my engine is a roller without taking it apart? It is the original engine, but I was told that only the HO's are roller.
If it's the factory engine it's a roller motor. All 86 and up passenger car 5.0s, either HO or standard, are roller motors. They all have roller cams. My 88 Thunderbird had a factory roller motor.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on December 09, 2013, 08:58:25 PM
Quote from: marianadeeps;425425
TC50, how do I tell if my engine is a roller without taking it apart? It is the original engine, but I was told that only the HO's are roller.
Then you were talking with someone who doesn't know Ford 5.0... ALL '86-'88 T-Bird/Coug & '86-'91full size models used roller cams in the Lo-Po engines... Generally in the same time period, trucks used a std cam but blocks were cast for roller lifters... Assuming you have a E6SE block(yes same as head), you can bet the bank it's roller...
If you want a sure fire method pull a pushrod & measure it, a non roller engine uses a 6.8" while the roller pushrods are a shorter 6.25", they will not interchange...
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: White85GS on December 09, 2013, 09:18:58 PM
So my tbi is definetly flat tappet? Am I correct in saying that they're not bad, it's just that rollers are better?
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: 88turbo on December 10, 2013, 05:00:25 AM
Quote from: White85GS;425430
So my tbi is definetly flat tappet? Am I correct in saying that they're not bad, it's just that rollers are better?
you "might" have a roller block with flat tappet lifters, sometime mid 85 is when they started to change them over to the new "XXX" block
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: BornInAFord on December 10, 2013, 09:35:25 AM
Learned something new... thanks, guys! :D
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on December 10, 2013, 10:41:06 AM
Quote from: BornInAFord;425439
Your 88 is *probably* roller-ready, but still flat tappet. HO and non-HO used the same block. There *may* be an oiling boss you have to drill/tap. The easiest way is to pull the intake to see if XXX and the spider hold-down bosses are there. Ford can be wierd in their use of old blocks laying around (see the 1968 289/302 changeover), so never say never with them...
You're WRONG, ALL SEFI 5.0 are roller, NO EXCEPTIONS...
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 10, 2013, 02:33:52 PM
Quote from: BornInAFord;425439
Your 88 is *probably* roller-ready, but still flat tappet. HO and non-HO used the same block. There *may* be an oiling boss you have to drill/tap. The easiest way is to pull the intake to see if XXX and the spider hold-down bosses are there. Ford can be wierd in their use of old blocks laying around (see the 1968 289/302 changeover), so never say never with them...
Stop confusing the guy. If your engine looks like the one below it is a roller motor. No ifs, ands, or buts. ALL SEFI 5.0 V8s ARE ROLLER MOTORS WHETHER THEY ARE HO OR STANDARD 5.0s.
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;425440
You're WRONG, ALL SEFI 5.0 are roller, NO EXCEPTIONS...
+1
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: Beau on December 10, 2013, 03:22:44 PM
Tom and Lou know their :ford: :bowdown::D
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: White85GS on December 10, 2013, 03:31:16 PM
That pic just reminded me of something. I don't think I've ever seen a carbed or CFI 5.0 with the distributor boot.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on December 10, 2013, 07:36:34 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;425422
My advice: keep the cam, and injectors, sell the rest, and find a complete and running Explorer engine. Swap in the HO cam (it has more upper RPM power) and right out of the box you'll already have better heads and intake. As an aside, you can also put on a mass air conversion, and use the A9P EEC. Grab some good headers (BBK 1515's work great, especially with GT40-P heads) a good X or H pipe, and and a cat back kit from a stang, modify the mid pipes and tails to fit the longer wheelbase of the tbird/cougar, and enjoy it immensely. It will have more power and torque than a 5.0 with E7 and an HO intake, simply because the heads and intake flow better. If you add a bigger TB (65mm would work well) you'd have it pretty nice and drivable.
Some folks reported that they were getting 300 horsepower with that setup with a tune on it...who knows for sure, but for the same amount of work, it's very worth it. Going from an HO to an explorer engine in mine made it feel like it was 50 cubes bigger...
:iagree: This. It's a magical combo if you're on a budget. All the best stock parts in one place. I'd be sure to run a 96 or early 97 engine, as they had original GT40 heads (bigger intake valve), internal EGR and a friendlier 65mm TB. Not to mention you can run regular Mustang headers instead of special P head ones. It's just easier to adapt the internal EGR motor. Also, be sure to drill and tap #5 intake runner for the air temp sensor.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: marianadeeps on December 10, 2013, 07:42:26 PM
Thanks guys. Mine looks just like it (including the distributor boot) except that one is much cleaner. And where did they get that M/C? That thing is huge.
So.... if I already have roller motor, I should just replace the cam with my HO cam, put some good heads on, GT40 intakes, headers and x-pipe and I'm 225 + Hp? This 155 Hp sucks, I got shut down by a minivan at a stop light.
I'll give you some numbers. Straight stock with just a cheap cold air intake, my 0-60 time was 11.9 secs. After that, I did the 11" front brake mod, TC springs all around, TC 15-1 rack, all new shocks and the 8.8 3.73 rear end swap. My 0-60 time is now 10.5 secs. My wife's '96 Avalon does 0-60 in 9.3 secs. Come on, you guys gotta help me do better, this is embarrassing.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: White85GS on December 10, 2013, 07:48:30 PM
Quote from: marianadeeps;425452
And where did they get that M/C? That thing is huge.
That's the (1987-88 T-Bird Turbo and 1985-92 Mark 7) ABS setup, it IS huge, and ridiculously complex. Most, if not all, 80's ABS systems were overly complicated, I HATE integral units, I'm lucky that all my vehicles that had ABS, had non-integral systems.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: Beau on December 10, 2013, 10:28:30 PM
With the HO cam, you'll need an HO-related EEC, such as a DA1, or VM1, or one from a 5.0 Mark VII. You'll also need orange topped 19 pound/hour injectors, and to change the plug wiring to 5.0HO/351w firing order. That's simple...a quick google image search on ford 5.0 firing order will net you that easy step. The HO eec, 19# injectors, and HO firing order must all be done together, just doing one of them will cause you fits. Gather all your parts, and if you're mechanically inclined and have a decent toolbox, you can do it in a weekend, or even less if you have all your parts and tools laid out before hand. Good luck!
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: thunderjet302 on December 11, 2013, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: marianadeeps;425452
Thanks guys. Mine looks just like it (including the distributor boot) except that one is much cleaner. And where did they get that M/C? That thing is huge.
So.... if I already have roller motor, I should just replace the cam with my HO cam, put some good heads on, GT40 intakes, headers and x-pipe and I'm 225 + Hp? This 155 Hp sucks, I got shut down by a minivan at a stop light.
I'll give you some numbers. Straight stock with just a cheap cold air intake, my 0-60 time was 11.9 secs. After that, I did the 11" front brake mod, TC springs all around, TC 15-1 rack, all new shocks and the 8.8 3.73 rear end swap. My 0-60 time is now 10.5 secs. My wife's '96 Avalon does 0-60 in 9.3 secs. Come on, you guys gotta help me do better, this is embarrassing.
Your car stock should hit 60 mph in about 9-9.5 seconds. The stock 5.0 cars would run high 16s in the quarter.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: marianadeeps on December 11, 2013, 06:46:55 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;425490
Your car stock should hit 60 mph in about 9-9.5 seconds. The stock 5.0 cars would run high 16s in the quarter.
Well that's disturbing. The car runs well, idles well, smooth acceleration. You're talking about with an AOD not T5 correct?
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: Haystack on December 12, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
my cars all pulled in the 10-11 second mark. most were well used and near or over 200k though. my 88 crown vic wagon would destroy my last tbird through 60, but it had 3.55 gears.
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: Beau on December 12, 2013, 07:01:17 PM
Take it as gospel...an Prius is likely faster than a stock 5.0 Bird.
Just the way it is. Go get some P's, exhaust, big cam, and slap that sheeit together!
Title: upgrade non-roller to roller engine?
Post by: White85GS on December 13, 2013, 11:12:44 PM
Idk, I went form a 96 Ranger 2.3/M50D 2wd, reg cab, and with all 112 horses (which was the most a n/a Lima 2.3 ever was) my Cat could still blow that Ranger away! I also had a '03 Ranger 3.0/5R44E, also reg cab 2wd, (rated @ 154hp I believe) which also couldn't get out of it's own way, and drank as much gas as a cfi 5.0.