Has anyone out there retrofitted a fox body Bird or Cat with a hydroboost setup from a newer Mustang?
If so how was the installation and how was the braking performance affected?
I have an 88 Bird that I'm swapping 13" cobra front brakes onto (unsure at this point of what i'm going to do for rear brakes) and i wondered if there would be much benefit in going to a hydroboost setup. This car will be setup for summer DD and an occational auto cross event.
The engine will be an injected 331 or 347 so having enough vacume for a booster shouldnt be an issue.
Thanks
I have dun a few!!!
do you only want it for abs brakes?
The HYDRO BOOSTER is a replacement for either manual or vacuum assist brake system. What would an ABS system have to do with it?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I can't think of any other reason to do away with a vacuum booster that is already there and works
I have no use for ABS so thats not really a concern. I guess i was just wondering if there was enough added benefit to warrant going the hydroboost route when I start swapping parts. If Ford started using it from the factory i would think that they liked something about the setup. I know its not the same application but i have hydroboost on my 01 F250 and it seems to stop a 7500 Lb truck pretty well.
You are going to Autocross and have no use for ABS? To each is their own I guess on that topic.
You can convert to hydroboost as it has been done on all kinds of cars with the Mustang systems. My question would be why as this is not something the novice shade tree mechanic would want to undertake. Not trying to discourage you from doing it at all as it would be a pretty cool mod. Do some research on the guys with Fox Mustangs that have done the conversion as that will be your best comparison as to the level of work it would be as well as what it would take materials wise.
Darren
It is EASY to do and it is a great MOD. I have also transplanted ELECTRIC BOOSTERS from Oldsmobile to fords. The big advantage is not relying on a set vacuum level to operate the power assist. With the type of engines i build and the HUGE cams i run you can not make enough VACUUM for proper brake operation. Normally i install a GM unit and pump assembly. Much better then the ford system and readily available from cars like Olds Diesels and or GM trucks. But the electric booster is far superior than both HYDRO OR VACUUM. Installation of a Hydro booster is a piece of cake and only mod is the extra line needed to return to the pump. Normally they use 3 lines. But newer units use the standard 2 line setup. Look for a 1/2 tun chevy diesel and that will get you all the necessary parts needed for the swap!
As far as ABS the early generation units are a piece of and not worth keeping and not to loose an ounce of sleep over it. If an ABS system is not 4 channel with traction control and active system it is GARBAGE. I have ripped out hundreds of ABS early systems and never look back. Normally in AUTO CROSS they never use ABS or for that matter the purist do not even use power brakes, This way they can heal and toe it in the curves!!
Simple because when you build performance engines you normally do not have enough Vacuum for good brake performance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
power brakes are a creature comfort to make the car more streetable. a properly setup manual braking system requires marginal effort even a stock car with the vac line capped isn't that bad.
maybe its just me.
I dont follow what you are saying stacks. You can not just disconnect the vacuum line from a booster to make it manual. Manual brakes need a MIN of pedal leverage around 6-1. That makes them travel further and modern cars wont allow long pedal travel. That is why they use boosters. Along with of course light pedal application of disc brake cars. Years back cars with self energizing brakes and manual masters did not need power assist. But today they do. But there is always the exception. I am trying to make my TYPHOON manual brakes but it needs a wedge in the fire wall to increase more pedal mechanical advantage on the master cylinder. I am using GIANT ROTORS and multi pistons calipers. I will work it out but not sure how it will turn out!!
I broke my vacuum dist block on my second 86 cougar. I capped the line to the vacuum booster and forgot about it. I drove it for four years that way without anyone noticing, even when I loaned out the car or took it in for safety and emissions.
one day I was driving too fast in the snow and lost control and spun out into a field. the car wasn't hurt and I was able to drive it out and back home. but, I bent the brake pedal, I guess from pushing to hard. I did swap in a new brake pedal, and while it was apart, I fixed the vacuum lines.
in my opinion a stock bypassed brake booster is fine as far as pedal pressure is concerned.going to a 6:1 ratio pedal would probably make it as easy if not more so the a stock setup would be my opinion. maybe its just cause I'm a bigger guy it doesn't bug me?
I am in the process of putting a hydro boost system in. It is not overly complicated, but there are a few issues. I had to move the mounting bolt locations to help align the rod with the pedal mount. Also on the newer rod the brake switch mounts at a slightly different angle and had to clearance the steering column support just a little bit, I am sure there are other ways around this issue. I also used the factory 03 lines to the booster and had to bend one line differently to clear the wiper motor.
I had to do this for clearance reasons with the motor swap, not sure I would have done it otherwise. Wish I was further along so I could tell you how its working.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?33763-My-85-TBird Post#8
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone that has driven or for that matter moved a car with a bad booster or the engine off or no vacuum to a booster will tell you it is almost impossible to stop it. Frankly i do not believe anyone on this planet could drive a car with no vacuum going to a booster for 4 seconds not to mention you said you drove it for 4 years ?????????? In my view impossible and this is from my 48 years turning wrenches. And if the vacuum T broke i believe that it would have took 5 seconds to FIX!! But whatever!!!!
The car you said you did this on has a pedal ratio of 3.7-1 and with a hybrid brake system it is unthinkable in my view that it could be driven safely with no difference and a state inspector would pass it on an inspection!!! But then again you have some very strange story's!!!
Thanks guys for all of the respones. I'm still in the planning stages of this project that includes engine, trans, suspension, braking and axle upgrades. I shouldnt have a problem making enough vacume to run a booster but if I'm gonna change out parts anyway i might as well setup the car the best way i can.
Hey Tom, please tell me more about the electric boosters that you've used? What vehicle do you use as a doner? How much fab work is envolved in the swap? Why do you prefer the electric over hydro?
Hey Bodyman, I was reading through your build and i must say that you have one hell of a project going on there.
Thanks Guys
Justin
Normally the older Oldsmobile station wagons have them. i used a tun of them years back. But with the newer brake systems you really dont need them but they work great. Just hook up a few wires and install the booster in the car. But there is nothing wrong withn a vacuum unit other than running a big cam. And i have used electric vacuum pumps and not even use the engine vacuum, There are several options. Yes Body man has a great project going on and a very professional build @ THAT. Very nice work
a lot of things seem to go over your head quite often. if you can lock up the tires, I would consider it to be safe enough to drive on the road. but the again, I seem to make impossible things happen every day.
yep, i can think of a few reasons to switch to hydroboost assist, vacuum being only one of them, what happens with the vacuum booster breaks for instance. or if you loose a vacuum line? not to mention that hydroboost is much more consistent regarding pedal pressure.
rubbish, my old 84 F250 with the diesel engine had a vacuum pump take a dump, which meant i lost the power assist brakes, along with the vacuum accessories, and it never bothered me driving that truck across country, or around town for four years that way. the only thing i noticed was an increase in pedal pressure required to use the brakes, but i got used to that, heck the clutch pedal required more effort than the brakes did even without the booster working.
I would say that each system has its advantages but why would you switch to the hydraboost if you were already vacuum and have adequate vacuum to support it? You have to be making some serious HP to kill the motors ability to make good vacuum or be running a monster cam profile. So if vacuum is an issue then hydraboost is definitely an option or as Tom and other have pointed out an electric system of sorts will work well too.
I will throw this out there, how often have you had a vacuum booster fail versus a power steering pump? I think that answer will vary from person to person so neither is really a good reason to base this decision on.
Darren
I have run some very large trucks at work. they rate them for under 26k gvwr to try to keep without a cdl. they also almost always have either powerboost setups or old school vacuum assist brakes. I have thrown a belt on the top of a mountain with a good 50 miles worth of dirt road and no cell service. when the hydroboost system fails, your in for a good hike and sometimes days without pay. I know why I prefer vacuum assisted.brakes.
I'll chime in super late on this. The only reason hydroboost is used from what I can remember is when engine vacuum isn't easily available (turbo, diesel) or the brake booster won't fit (sn95, new edge mustang). Hydroboost actually takes power from the engine by loading the power steering pump. Vacuum power robs no power, so why not use it if you can?