Ok so I got my hands on a pretty much complete 96 gt stang for dirt cheap mainly to convert to 5 lug
For the rear I plan to use the rear axles from the stang, 1/8" MM spacers, and the mpv van rotors so I can stay with vented discs in the rear.
And for the front I plan to use everything from the stang, it's a 96 so according to the cool cats write up 96 spindles are directed towards lowered cars which mine will be
But the write up also says I will probably need a bump steer kit, caster/camber plates, and modified alignment settings, so would all this be worth it or should I just find some 94-95 spindles which are more directed towards stock height cars if it even works?
I've even read in some threads around the web that 96+ spindles are not even recommended on fox mustangs so I dont know if that applies to TCs
I also want to know if the sn95 master cylinder vac assist setup will work with a tc with the sn95 setup?
My current teves setup leaks slowly at the lines by the proportional valve under the teves MC so it needs to be replaced regardless
If not which MC would be the one to get that doesn't cost a fortune?
I have the complete 96 sn95 at my disposal so I can use any parts I need from it if they will work
If anybody could give me some insight on what I should do that would be great, thanks
Anybody have any input
Since it's a TC you can just pick up a pair of fox Mustang 5 lug rotors from a place like CJ Pony parts and not have to worry about a spindle change. They don't have the ABS ring like TC rotors did but it sounds like you're getting rid of the ABS anyway. That's what I plan to do on my '88. Just my opinion.
The 96+ spindles will push the front wheels out a few more MM than 94-95's. The 96+ also has a straight arm that meets the tie rod end, 94-95's are slightly bent. I think the rear axles are the same length through 94-98. I haven't heard of the MVP rotors, I need to research that myself. The booster and MC from a 94-98 should work fine but make sure you swap the prop valve also.
But then you still have 11" brakes. by swapping to sn95 spindles you can easily install 13" Cobra brakes for not much more than the cost of replacing the normal sn95 parts.
I used Mach1 rotors and calipers. Still 13" and little less than "Cobra" labeled pieces.
Cobra caliper brackets, 99+ GT calipers (dual piston aluminum instead of the iron Cobras,) and 13" Cobra rotors would be the best combo for off the shelf LAPS selection.
So Im contemplating this to!! Mainly because my car needs new brakes all the way around and I just discovered we have a set of mustang rims at work that I like!!! If what Ive gathered from coolcats is correct, swap the front with the sn95 stuff in my case I would be going for the 94-95 spindle setup. Front being the easiest!! On the rear SN95 axle shafts and a little trick that will allow vented discs to be retained is 90 mazda MPV rotors with an 1/8 spacer between it and the hub.
http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/4to5lug.html
Yea eventually I want to swap on some cobra brakes but for now this stock stuff will work
Cobra parts are expensive though, cheapest set of rotors and calipers I've found is around 3-400
Not going to spend that much when I got the whole sn95 for 320 which will convert my car to 5 lug all around
If you are pulling all of the brakes off the 96 car then you can utilize the brake booster and MC. The rear end is the same 8.8 housing as the Fox Mustangs just the axles are 0.75" wider per side to accommodate the ABS exciter rings. This just happens to make the width pretty close to perfect to replace a T-Bird /Cougar rear end. You can use all the rotors, calipers, and caliper brackets for the swap and can get away with running the 96+ spindles with a bump steer kit. There are two types of bump steer kits and their use is usually tied to the car being stock height or lowered. The tapered kits are typically used with stock height cars and mildly lowered cars and the drill through kits are typically used with lowered cars (2"+) which can been seen on Maximum Motorsports website.
Spindle Tech Data:
94-95 spindles will increase the front track width by 0.120" (3.1mm) per side - typically used with factory K-Members
96-04 spindles will increase the front track width by 0.320" (8.1mm) per side - typically used with aftermarket tubular K-Members as they are designed around the 96-04 spindle geometry
94-04 spindles will accept either the V-8 Fox Mustang or SN95 struts (Fox struts from 10" front brake cars will work but will require spacers)
94-04 spindles used with Fox ball joints will require 0.330" of spacers (can usually make this up with hardened washers and some company's sell machined units)
Some of the things you will need to come up with:
3-2 conversion kit to install the 94+ MC
Manual proportioning valve for rear brake bias
Front soft lines from the calipers to the stock hard lines on the car
Brake line and soft line to connect the rear brakes to the hard line on the car
Do realize that the use of the 94+ MC requires the metric threaded fittings off the 94+ car as the Fox cars are SAE threaded 83-86 and I believe the 87-88 cars are as well but not 100% sure. If the threads on your car are SAE just get an 85 Lincoln Town car MC and that will solve the problem. This has been discussed on another thread here so do a search.
The 94+ booster will require you to slot the mounting holes on the firewall which is not hard and if the booster is free this is the route I would go. If I was purchasing a booster I would get a 93 Cobra unit as they pretty much just bolt up and are dimensionally identical as far as I know.
If you use stock SN95 rubber soft lines on the front of the car you will need a Weatherhead adapter to get them to connect to the stock Fox hard lines on the car. I believe the part number for the fittings is 7828 and are available at most AutoZone, OReilly's, etc or can be ordered online. If I remember correctly one side needs it and the other does not on the Mustangs but I am not sure about our cars (I used SS conversion specific lines on my cars). You can order SS braided lines that are direct use and do not require the fittings if you want to go that route.
If you have to replace your ball joints simply install the shorter, low-friction 1994-04 ball joints as they will press into the lower control arms just fine. This relieves a person of having to come up with the 0.330" spacers for use with the Fox ball joints.
The use of the SN95 spindles will change the geometry on the 83-86 cars as they use the same lower control arm as the Fox Mustangs so CC plates are recommended. The 87-88 cars use the same lower control arms as the SN95 cars so the geometry change may not be enough to warrant CC plates.
I think that about sums it up but this is a very high level run through. Use the search function on here and that will turn up several threads where this has been discussed.
Darren
That's is the kind of info I was looking for
Thank you very much for the detailed and specific description
So far I'm still pulling the major parts like the rear end and front end assemblies
If I need anything else Il post it up
So some searches on here and all of what I wrote has been gone over a few times. Good luck with the swap as it is well worth it!
Darren
Can you confirm that this combo works?
I try and not call people out but that combo will get you in trouble. The '99+ front calipers are not designed to work with the Cobra rotors. One guy mocked it up and built some adapters to get them centered over the rotor only to discover it would lock up under hard cornering. This was due to the parts up front not having enough clearance to take into account for the deflection of all the parts.
I ran the '99+ front calipers on the modified front SN95 spindles with the stock SN95 rotors with some Hawk street pads and the brakes were awesome compared to the stock Fox garbage.
If you want to run the Cobra brakes and the $$$ is too much then just install the SN95 V6/GT brakes all the way around. From there upgrading to the Cobra brakes is easy. The cheapest way is to just do it the first time but not everyone can plunk down the $$$ to do it up front.
And to clarify, the Cobra calipers are aluminum and manufactured by PBR. The '98 and down front calipers on the V6/GT cars are single piston cast iron calipers. Please gets the facts correct.
Darren
I personally installed two sets of the 99+ on 13" rotors using the Cobra caliper brackets. As far as I know, the owners had no problems with them. I didn't think it was possible but that was the combo that was selected by the local Napa. I have seen many of the 99+ calipers and brackets on SN95 GT/V6 rotors work with no problems as well. I've installed 4 sets of those and again, never heard anything bad about them.
Ok when the time comes around I will probably look into it more, depends on what I can find at the time.
For now i will use the stock mustang stuff up front and pretty much the stock TC stuff out back but 5 lug
It turns out the 96 mustang I have has a hydroboost setup which I do not plan on using, so I got my hands on a 93 cobra MC that came with a line kit from MM (this one http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Manual-Brake-Installation-Kit-1993-Cobra1994-GT-master-cylinder-in-1987-93-Mustang-P1099.aspx ), which I'm not sure if it will help me. Is this a 3-2 line kit?
From what I have read it works to convert the 93 cobra booster to fit a 87-93 5.0 brake system but will it work to fit my 87 TC which will use the stock 96 brake setup
I will be buying a 93 cobra brake booster, is that over kill or is there a different one i should get??
I will also be using a proportioning valve for the rear bias, the one from MM will work for my app right?
This is it
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg74/nukkah617/T-Bird/IMAG0367_zps4f0c3ca2.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/nukkah617/media/T-Bird/IMAG0367_zps4f0c3ca2.jpg.html)
Drewstang,
I just cannot see how you used the 99+ calipers on the 13" Cobra front rotors without some kind of fabricated bracket between the caliper and the spindle. Maybe I am missing something here but a bracket has to be built due to the 99+ V6/GT calipers being installed on 10.8" diameter rotors where the Cobra units are 13" in diameter. That is an increase in radius of 1.1" which dictates that need for a bracket to be made to move the 99+ V6/GT calipers out far enough to go over the Cobra rotors. The other issue is that the 99+V6/GT rotors are 1" thick where the Cobra rotors are 1.1" thick which causes interference issues with the rotor face and the body of the 99+ V6/GT caliper. They will physically fit over the Cobra rotor but they need additional clearance for any hard corning as this whole system flexes and the only thing that moves is the body of the caliper but if it cannot move far enough it will bind into the rotor. Again, maybe I am missing something but this is the only way I have seen this install and the guy ended up just installing the Cobra calipers on his car.
One other thing that you have to be aware of is the brake bias of the vehicle. The 99+ cars have a twin 45mm piston design on the front calipers. The Cobras have a twin 41mm piston design on the front rotors. It may not seem like much but with the 45mm units coupled with the 13" rotors it could cause some headaches. This is all track talk so it would not likely rear its head on the street but I race occasionally so I look at it from both sides. For something like this I would simply call Jack Hidley at Maximum Motorsports and have him run the calcs to clear this up but again it may not make an ounce of difference on a pure street car.
Darren
Ok I finally have some cash to upgrade to 13" brakes up front, do I still need the 93 cobra brake booster?
I mean with all that leverage from the 13" brake up front, 5-lug converted turbo coupe discs in rear I really don't want a setup that is overboosted, I want a nice linear pedal. I don't want a pedal where the brakes come on too strong when the boost comes on.
Is anybody else here running 13" brakes up front with discs in the back?
If so, what master cly/brake booster combo are you running?
It's going to be okay, not optimal but fine. I ran the 13" Cobra fronts with the SN95 GT rears for about a year until I had the time to install the rear Cobra brakes on my Coupe. The rear SN95 calipers have a 38mm piston where the stock Turbo Coupe calipers have a 45mm piston so there may be some brake bias issues which again may not show its ugly head on the street. The Cobra and SN95 calipers are identical with the exception of the caliper bracket which relocates the caliper outwards on the Cobra setup due to the larger diameter disc.
You will definitely still need the 1993 Cobra booster as a stock T-Bird or Fox Mustang booster will create a lot of pedal effort even with the 1" bore of the Cobra MC. Further, the 1993 Cobra booster and the 94-95 GT/V6/Cobra Mustang Booster as well as the 96-2004 V6 Boosters are basically the same with the difference being the bolt pattern at the firewall so its just easier to install the Cobra unit versus the SN95 unit. 1996 through 2004 GT's and Cobra's went to hydraboost just in case you were wondering.
Gut your stock proportioning valve and install the manual proportioning valve. Screw the manual unit all the way in and then back it off a couple of turns for a starting point. You want the rear brakes to lock up just before the front ones do. With the larger rear caliper pistons this may happen with the proportioning valve screwed all the way in as it does not completely block flow off when it is screwed all the way in. This is where the braking bias I was talking about comes into play.
Hope this helps.
Darren
Yea the mustang I had was a 96 gt so I got no mc or bb from it.
And thanks, looks like I'm going with a 93 brake booster. Is one from a regular auto parts store fine or should I order one online somewhere ?
Also, I got my hands on some 94/95 front spindles and now looking to get the tie rod parts. Do I get sn95 inner and outer tie rods, fox inners w/sn95 outers, or do I get a bump steer kit? If so, do I go for the stud style or bolt through syle?
On the coolcats write up it recommends steeda sn95 ball joints but man are they pricy, can I just get normal sn95 ball joints and be done with it? My car is lowered a bit, sn95 vert springs in the back, 5/8 of a coil cut off the stock 87 tc springs on front, fox stang shocks n struts all around w/chuck adaptors out back.
As far as the booster goes it's just where you can get a good deal. If it's local or online it makes no difference quality wise. I try to do local just for potential warranty issues but it's not like boosters wear out every couple of years.
Tie rod ends...the holy grail question that never seems to go away. The outer tie rod locations on the SN95 spindles are further outboard than the Fox units. I have Fox inners with Maximum Motorsports bump steer kits on both my cars. When the Coupe had a stock style front suspension (stock K-member, coil springs, stock lower control arms) with 94-95 spindles I ran the tapered style bump steer kit and had zero issues. If you want to run the SN95 inner and outer tie rods you will most likely have to shorten the outers as the assembly as a whole will be too long to get the proper toe-in. This is by far the cheapest way to go and works just fine.
The Steeda ball joints are good units but the stock SN95 ball joints from an auto parts store are just fine. The design is better than that stock Fox units to begin with so I have just used auto parts store brands and not worried about it.
Darren
And don't forget that SN95 tie rod parts are metric threaded, Fox are SAE threaded..meaning you can't use SN95 outer ends on Fox inner ends.
I did a 5.0 rack (15.1 ratio) swap into my 4 banger notch, used the original Fox inners, used new fox outer ends, SN95 ball joints (went with moog here-it's going to be a long term daily driver) on the fox c/a with '94 spindles, new rotors, and '99 calipers, brackets, and flex hoses. Plenty of "meat" threaded into the outer ends...I know some folks have said there isn't a lot of thread engagement...I didn't have that issue, for some reason.
I'm running 245/40 Nitto 555's on Bullitt wheels on the front...my issue is there's still negative camber. I don't want to put it in the shop and have them charge me and not be able to get it dialed in, or worse, screw something up.
I have some of those "offset" bolts when I took some parts off of a SN95 donor car a coupla summers ago...should I put them in and tweak on it more? The car is sitting on the stock 4 banger springs, with new shocks and struts...no lowering.
Other than that, everything about this went great. :)
Sounds good, thanks, I couldn't do it without you guys
For the tie rods, the passenger inner tie rod on my TC is shot so I'm just going to replace both sides with new sn95 inners and outers and just modify them if I need to. They were dirt cheap on rockauto anyways.
My cousin is actually an alignment tech at a reputable body shop in town so I think this will be a perfect car for him to do when I'm done with it.
Finally getting some work done on my car and the parts are rollin in
Almost nothing is a bolt on so progress is slow, got my 93 cobra brake booster installed. Just like the early 87-93 mustangs it didn't just slide in so I had to "make it fit'' haha. The master cylinder is almost on, I removed the stock proportioning valve completely and am only going to run a wilwood manual proportioning valve. I needed 3 brake adaptor fittings and found 2 at AutoZone, I could not for find the last one anywhere but finally found a local company to order me one, should be here Friday.
For my rear setup, apparently the sn95 axle s and the 1/8" spacers are too large of a diameter to fit inside the mpv van rotors so I machined them to fit inside, just need to install them on my car now and see how well this combo really fits.
From what I have read on other forums some people had this issue and others didn't, I'm just hoping I don't run into any other issues.
Finally got an engine into my car and it runs great
I installed the Master cylinder, wilwood prop valve, and brake booster, got it all bled and working as it should. So far it still has the stock tc brakes, wheels, and tires and the brakes work extremely well so for anybody with a stock 87-88 tc wanting to go vacuum assist, the 93 cobra MC and BB with an adjustable prop valve is a great combo.
I'm sure it will work even better once I get my cobra brakes and fr500s installed.
Glad you got it up and going and the brakes work well. You will notice more difference with the Cobra brakes installed believe me. If you do not get the Cobra calipers loaded with pads I would suggest that you get some that do not dust as the FR500's are not the most fun to clean. I run the Hawk HP's and they dust a little but stop so good that I am unwilling to change them to anything else. I used to run the Hawk HP+ but good grief the rims would get dirty just sitting in the garage, I think the pads just shed dust like a short hair dog.
Darren
Thanks man
Yea the set I got came with pads already but I don't know brand they are, quality looks good though so I'll run them for a little while
And really, hard to clean, I'm sure they can't be as bad as the stock snowflakes haha.
Just an update, I did get the front wheels fitted on
Everything bolted in pretty well: installed new sn95 ball joints, inner, and outer tie rods, 95 mustang spindles with hubs, 04 cobra rotors calipers n brackets
The sn95 tie rods were perfect in length and the cobra brake lines connected right up to my turbo coupe, no adapters or nothing.
I havent had a chance to see how well the brakes work with the new setup up front since I need to get an alignment but I'm sure it's going to stop on a dime
Now I just need to finish up the rear, I did get some used che control arms, some wheel bearings, and a Trac loc rebuild kit so those are definitely going on.
Good to hear it's working out. That news motivates me to go with the SN-95 brakes out back (but in 4 lug) and the larger Stang breaks (4 lug) up front. Keep up the work and keep us posted.
Thanks Vinnie
I got the rest of my car done a while ago, just haven't posted on it, overall the rear end went together pretty well
Rebuilt the Trac loc using new steel and friction plates, reused 2 of the old friction plates per side since they still had plenty of meat on em, and used the 96 stang axles
One side needed one of the 1/8" spacers along with 2 shims behind the brake caliper to make it line up perfect, the other side went together just fine no spacers at all
The driver rear tire was rubbing so I had the rear fenders rolled a bit
It's running awesome nonetheless, brakes work insanely good, and I'm loving the look
I'll post some pics as soon as I get the chance
I'd like some advice on what would be the easiest and cheapest route to bring the rear wheels in a bit like 1/2" per side if possible.
I was thinkin Fox axles and north race car brackets but is this the only solution, I would like to keep the vented disc/ tc calipers
It rides fine for the most part but it rubs a tiny bit in certain situations for example getting out of my drive way when the rear end is fully extended in one side and compressed on the other
I am running the North Race Car brackets and Fox axles on my Bird with a Fox Mustang 8.8. This is approximately 0.75" narrower per side than the SN95 setup. If you have long studs installed in the axles and run some 1/4" spacers you should be where you want to be.
These are what I am running on my 93 Coupe with an SN95 width rear end and 3" long wheel studs:
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/14-thick-wheel-spacers-5-Lug-pair-1979-2014-Mustang-P574.aspx
I needed to kick the wheels out 1/4" to help with the tires rubbing on the inner fender under hard cornering around off camber turns. I massaged the inner fenders with a dead blow but the spacers gave me some added clearance which is more confidence to hit the curves at Hallett harder.
Darren
Awesome thank you