Technical => Drivetrain Tech => Topic started by: snidet_bird on June 07, 2013, 11:09:35 AM
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: snidet_bird on June 07, 2013, 11:09:35 AM
I know this subject gets beaten to death with TC axle swaps but I didn't see this question.
Has anyone done a turbo coupe axle swap but left their drums instead of converting to disc brakes? I have factory 10" drums and after my 11" mark 7 caliper front brake swap I'm pretty satisfied with the ability and don't honestly feel like redoing all my brakes just for some small non vented rear discs. And parts are getting hard to come by. It should all be a straight bolt up considering all Fords pretty much share the same style to bolt brakes to but I just wanted to know if anyone has done this.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 07, 2013, 11:45:43 AM
It's not all just "that simple". The main issue is the width of your axle housing. Since you didn't mention the year of your car, we have no info. There were 2 different width 7.5 housings, with the early being the same width as the TC housing and the later being wider.
You can find the dimensions in THIS POST (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?13253-Deciphering-Fox-Axels&p=138359#post138359) in the stickied thread at the top of this very section. If your housing is the same width as the TC one, then yeah, it'll all just swap over.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Beau on June 07, 2013, 01:18:45 PM
I took a TC rear (1988 8.8 disc brake rearend, to be specific) and used '97 Stang axles, Thunderbird Sport 10" brake drum backing plates, and I also used 1988 Grand Marquis 10" drums. Fill the guts up using 10" Thunderbird brake components, and done deal.
Not sure if this what you had in mind, but here's my thread HERE. (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?33996-10-quot-drums-on-a-TC-8.8-with-5-lug-axles.-Update-and-success!&highlight=10%26quot%3B+drum+brakes")
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 07, 2013, 02:42:31 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;416729
I took a TC rear (1988 8.8 disc brake rearend, to be specific) and used '97 Stang axles, Thunderbird Sport 10" brake drum backing plates, and I also used 1988 Grand Marquis 10" drums. Fill the guts up using 10" Thunderbird brake components, and done deal.
Not sure if this what you had in mind, but here's my thread HERE. (http://"http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?33996-10-quot-drums-on-a-TC-8.8-with-5-lug-axles.-Update-and-success!&highlight=10%26quot%3B+drum+brakes")
Looks like he's staying 4-lug.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Beau on June 07, 2013, 09:02:38 PM
In that case, TC axles with ABS rings knocked off, Sport backing plates and drums and brake guts. Of course, the OP'er would need to cut off the disc brake mounts on the rear, but other than that, it's painless.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 08, 2013, 09:32:25 AM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;416750
In that case, TC axles with ABS rings knocked off, Sport backing plates and drums and brake guts. Of course, the OP'er would need to cut off the disc brake mounts on the rear, but other than that, it's painless.
This really only works if the housings are the same length. The late 7.5's had the wider housing, the TC 8.8 was the "std" narrow width. 83-early 85 stuff would work, but not the 85.5-88 stuff with the wider housing.
We're still guessing on the year of his car, though.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: snidet_bird on June 08, 2013, 12:00:47 PM
It's an 88. Base model with 5.0. But 10" drums. And yes I was thinking if staying 4 lug with some mustang turbine wheels but I've toyed with the idea of 5 lug. I read the whole saga on tbirdsports and I think that was a lot of good info. However I thought the TC had the same width axle as the 7.5. Although I don't think the overall width will matter as long as the backing plates bolt up and the drums fit properly over everything. I just wasn't sure if anyone had actually tried this yet.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Beau on June 08, 2013, 03:43:54 PM
Do you have the TC 8.8, or still have the stock 7.5?
It would take some studying of the chart and some measuring of drums and backing plates to figure out what would work on the 7.5 rear, and go to the bigger brakes.
I feel that if you were going to go through that much work, it may be better to swap in a TC rear and gain the better gearing as well as trac loc. Of course then too, everything I did in my thread would apply to you as well.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 08, 2013, 03:50:49 PM
Quote from: snidet_bird;416761
It's an 88. Base model with 5.0. But 10" drums. And yes I was thinking if staying 4 lug with some mustang turbine wheels but I've toyed with the idea of 5 lug. I read the whole saga on tbirdsports and I think that was a lot of good info. However I thought the TC had the same width axle as the 7.5. Although I don't think the overall width will matter as long as the backing plates bolt up and the drums fit properly over everything. I just wasn't sure if anyone had actually tried this yet.
People have tried this numerous times...it doesn't work.
I posted up a link in the second post of this thread that takes you to a chart showing the pertinent dimensions of the rear axles. Looking at that and through the forum will show you the info that you need to learn that your assumptions are incorrect.
The 86-88 7.5 housing is NOT the same width as the 8.8 in the TC. It's wider. The overall width, axle to axle is the same, but the housings are not the same width. That being the case, explain how your backing plates and drums will line up? They'll be 3/4" too shallow, seeing as the axles on the TC poke out of the housing that much more than on your 88 7.5. Not going to work.
Also, my post just prior to your last one details what years of backing plates and drums would work on your TC 8.8.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: snidet_bird on June 08, 2013, 05:40:52 PM
I was just asking a question, why the attitude.....
I get what you're saying, I just wanted to know if someone had done it because I didn't have all that info and while searching didn't see it at first. I do appreciate the extra help you both have given me.
Anyways, I've actually already swapped a Fox Mustang axle, but want the right width for everything since I have staggered wheels. So, if there was 3/4" narrower each side for the housing which the backing plate bolts to, which is what I meant with , then possibly a spacer could be fabbed up to make it work. Less work than all the other conversions needed for rear disc. I hate making brake lines. I know I could always use wheel spacers, but just wanted to have it right.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Beau on June 09, 2013, 12:13:51 AM
If you've got a Mustang 8.8 rear, then you're good to go. That rear is as wide as the TC 8.8 rear.
The Stang's rear housing width (and the TC 8.8, too) measures in at 54.095 inches. The Tbird 7.5 (1986, '87 and '88) measure in at 55.596", so you see why Chuck states the 7.5 won't work for the brake swap I did in my post. The TC axle length is 29.91", and the Fox Stang axle length is 29.18", whereas the SN95 Stang axle length is 29.97"
Therefore, you need the Sport's 10" backing plates, the SN95 axles (from either a 7.5 or 8.8 will work, the axles themselves are identical, save for the ABS ring on the V8 axles, you'll knock the ABS stuff off) to keep everything in it's proper place.
Hope this eliminates any confusion. Since you have the proper width 8.8 housing, you should be good to go, if you can locate a set of the Tbird/Cougar 10" drum backing plates. PM me if you have any more questions :)
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 09, 2013, 10:01:20 AM
The Sport 10" drum brakes will NOT bolt up to his Mustang housing. He either need the early drum stuff (83-85) or fab up some sort of spacer for between the axle and the backing plate, like he mentioned.
Staying 4 lug, you'll need the TC axles. Going 5-lug, get some 94-98 axles (99-04 are longer).
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: snidet_bird on June 09, 2013, 10:24:23 AM
Actually, it will bolt up. As I stated in my last post, that is my current setup. The problem I have is that it's like 1.5 inches narrower each side, so I'm using staggered wheels with an offset to compensate. However I'm wanting to go with the same size for all 4 wheels. If I stay 4 lug I may just use wheel spacers but if 5 lug I may do what tbirdsports did.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 09, 2013, 12:43:27 PM
No. They bolt up, because the Fox Mustang axles are 3/4" shorter than the Tbird ones. The Sport 10" brakes (from an 86-88 7.5) WILL NOT bolt up to a narrow 8.8 with proper TBird-length axles, which is what it sounded like you wanted to do in the first place. Compare apples to apples, not apples to pears.
This particular topic is so ground into the dirt, I'm surprised you didn't trip over the dead horse on your way in.
Might save a lot of confusion on everyone's part if you just state your actual question from the start, instead of coming in later with all the facts about what you have and what you'd like to do.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: snidet_bird on June 09, 2013, 01:55:53 PM
That is what I wanted to do, and now I have my question answered. I had not see anyone try this before or mention it so this is why I asked, but we can put it to rest now, I have my question answered. Thanks.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Beau on June 09, 2013, 05:24:31 PM
Chuck, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to gain clarity;
If the Fox Mustang 8.8 housing is identical in length to the TC (1988 in this instance, for both rears) rear, then why wouldn't Sport backing plates and SN95 axles work? Or Am I missing something else?
I know the axles themselves (Fox Stang vs Tbird) are different lengths, but that chart does say the 8.8 housings are same length...?
I AM aware that the 7.5 is no bueno, however.
I'm not asking to be spoonfed, but I don't seem to see were the issue lies with the Mustang 8.8 as compared to the TC 8.8, but I might be missing something painfully obvious..
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on June 09, 2013, 10:31:50 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;416815
Chuck, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to gain clarity;
If the Fox Mustang 8.8 housing is identical in length to the TC (1988 in this instance, for both rears) rear, then why wouldn't Sport backing plates and SN95 axles work? Or Am I missing something else?
I know the axles themselves (Fox Stang vs Tbird) are different lengths, but that chart does say the 8.8 housings are same length...?
I AM aware that the 7.5 is no bueno, however.
I'm not asking to be spoonfed, but I don't seem to see were the issue lies with the Mustang 8.8 as compared to the TC 8.8, but I might be missing something painfully obvious..
Beau- I know you're not trying to argue. My reiteration was an attempt to clarify info. Unless I'm having a brain fade, the Sport didn't get the 8.8, and thus had the wider housing 7.5. This is why the Sport drum brakes bolted up to the Fox Mustang housing. The housing to axle dimension is pretty much the same on the Fox Mustang stuff vs. the 86-88 TBird/Cougar 7.5. Using the Sport (or Fox Mustang) drum brakes on a 87-88TC 8.8 (with the TC axles, not the Fox Mustang ones) would result in the drums being pushed out 3/4".
His Sport should have started with a 7.5, and when he went to the Fox Mustang 8.8, then yeah, the brakes bolt up. They don't bolt up when going to the 87-88TC 8.8. To try and keep 4-lug drums on an 87-88 TC rear end, and keep the proper TBird width, you need to use the 83-85 drum stuff.
Had things been clarified from the start, then there would've been less confusion.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Beau on June 10, 2013, 11:34:26 AM
I see, thanks for clarifying that Chuck :bowdown:
Rock on folks! ;)
On a side note, this has served to give me an idea for the bigger drums on my '84 coupe. Just need to find the '83-'85 backing plates. On with the hunt :hick:
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: fontana motorsports on August 27, 2013, 09:08:44 PM
i know its been a couple months but i did the swap on a 88 10" 7.5 bird rear since we didnt want disc but wanted the 5 lug...and we actually like the .78 track width on each side that we gained...we did it with 99-04 mustang axles, panther 10' drums (10x2.5) panther shoes (changed pivot pin to a panther one) worked out fine...good info on this site , thank you all for the input you guys have gave this site.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 27, 2013, 10:45:32 PM
I just finished something almost similar. I've got an 88 housing, with an 88 sport 7.5 lsd, 98 V6 Mustang axles, 10" T-bird drums drilled to the 5-lug pattern and since the stem of the Mustang axle expands from 1.4 to 1.59" just outboard of the bearings, I had to find different axle seals which apparently fit a 63 Fiat. For some reason I expected Ranger left axles to fit, and then I expected 94-98 Mustang axles to just fit. Thank goodness I can navigate seal spec catalogs.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: fontana motorsports on August 27, 2013, 11:55:06 PM
Cool, as long as that's a machined surface it should work fine long term, and the axles have a new wear area compared to when they were in the short housing.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 28, 2013, 07:07:16 AM
It's a machined surface, I just had to use some emery cloth to clean the rust off. 2 weeks in, there's still no gear lube in my brakes.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on August 28, 2013, 08:55:13 AM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;420713
I just finished something almost similar. I've got an 88 housing, with an 88 sport 7.5 lsd, 98 V6 Mustang axles, 10" T-bird drums drilled to the 5-lug pattern and since the stem of the Mustang axle expands from 1.4 to 1.59" just outboard of the bearings, I had to find different axle seals which apparently fit a 63 Fiat. For some reason I expected Ranger left axles to fit, and then I expected 94-98 Mustang axles to just fit. Thank goodness I can navigate seal spec catalogs.
Of course the 94-98 Mustang axles (or the Ranger axles) didn't fit properly. The 86-88 7.5 housing is 3/4" wider (per side) than what those axles are spec'ed for. The axles are the same length, but as you found out, the bearing surfaces are not in the same location. The 94-98 Mustang axles are a drop-in on the 83-85 7.5 housing and the 87-88TC 8.8 housing.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on August 28, 2013, 09:47:50 AM
Quote from: Chuck W;420732
Of course the 94-98 Mustang axles (or the Ranger axles) didn't fit properly. The 86-88 7.5 housing is 3/4" wider (per side) than what those axles are spec'ed for. The axles are the same length, but as you found out, the bearing surfaces are not in the same location. The 94-98 Mustang axles are a drop-in on the 83-85 7.5 housing and the 87-88TC 8.8 housing.
Why does it always seem that the same search gets different results AFTER you've already had problems and figured out a solution? I did all the research I could, but I found no mention anywhere of 87-88 having longer tubes until after I was up to my nose in a shiznitty situation. Then, I repeated the search and found out that I was pretty much on my own to find a fix, owing to my axle tubes being .75" wider per side. Even now, I can find that info all over this section of the board, but in the first search; nada. Even coolcats didn't mention it.
Title: Turbo Coupe axle with drums?
Post by: Chuck W on August 28, 2013, 12:15:33 PM
There's a stickied thread at the top of this very section that has the info, and a link to a handy chart, which I mentioned in this thread.
We also cover this problem, which no one ever seems to remember, at least once a month, so it's kind of surprising to me at this point that people still miss it.
Also, taken from Coolcats
Quote
Cougar/T-Bird 7.5" Beginning with the 1983 model year, the Cougar and Thunderbird shared a common-width 7.5" rear axle housing with the Mustang/Capri. Therefore, all 4 cars have the same rear end housing, but the Cougar/T-Bird had longer axle shafts. Most Cougars had the 2.73 open-end gear (non-locking). The 1984-86 XR7's had the locking rear with Quad shocks and a 3.45 gear. [COLOR="#FF0000"]This Mustang/Capri style rear end was used until part way through the 1985 model year (approx. 11/84), when the Cougar/T-Bird got a unique width axle housing. It was approximately 1" wider than the Mustang housing and about 1" narrower than a Mark VII rear axle housing. However, due to a different offset rear drum, the overall width was the same (thus keeping the same rear track dimensions). This configuration was used until 1988 on all Cougars and Thunderbirds.[/COLOR] Again, most were equipped with the non-locking 2.73 unit. However, on some models it was possible to order a 7.5" rear with a 3.08 gear for towing. Almost all 7.5" rear ends had the 9" rear drum brakes, which have a finned side profile. Some had the optional 10" drums, noted by their smooth side profile, which came later cars (primarily 1988) with the optional towing package or heavy duty suspension package.
- See more at: http://www.coolcats.net/general/axleinfo.html#sthash.BPNgVscj.dpuf
The actual dimensions are not quite the same as in the chart I reference, but it does state a difference in the housings.
Glad you found a solution, but the info was there and has been. Not sure about the issue with your first search.