Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: Pacerized on May 14, 2013, 06:57:03 PM
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 14, 2013, 06:57:03 PM
I'm still working on piecing together my exhaust system and found a guy that has some dirt cheap mustang parts. I'm buying the headers from him but he also has 2 sets of heads and an intake. One set of heads has 152k on them and came off his 91 and the other set come off his fathers 89 but they were rebuilt 5,000 miles ago with new seats ect., the intake also came off the 89. These are the E7TE heads. The price is right, and I have to decide to get these by Thursday. Would this be the way to go? I'd just be addressing the exhaust now and wouldn't get into the top of the engine until this winter when I park the car in the garage. What else would I need to make these exhaust changes? Sensors?, computer?
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: turbotrav on May 14, 2013, 11:11:37 PM
Well...the lower intakes are the same...so no gain there. The E7 heads would be an improvement. If you change to E7 on your SO 5.0..also change the cam...the stock HO would work great. If u change the heads then upgrade the ecu, 19lb injectors, mustang computer, mass air... Enjoy the 250hp....this swap is documented on Coolcats.net website.
Lots of work but a nice driving 14 second car....
Travis
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 14, 2013, 11:31:48 PM
I read on cool cats not to attempt a mass air on a stock cougar 5.0, but I'm honestly not up to speed on that yet. If I don't want to do a complete mass air conversion is this an option? What would happen with just changing the heads and intake which would come with stock mustang injectors and then finding a mustang computer? Or I guess what would be the simplest least time comsuming approach?
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 14, 2013, 11:45:00 PM
Here's the link I checked out on Cool Cats. Even if this is wrong, I was really hoping to be able to just change the heads and intake, if I'm wasting my time on that I may just pass on the heads and do only the exhaust. http://www.coolcats.net/modifying/massair.html NOTE: This section is for converted or transplanted 1987-88 HO 5.0 motors ONLY. It is not intended for the stock Cougar/Thunderbird 5.0 motor. Any attempt to convert a stock non-HO motor to mass air can result in serious damage to the engine.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: mcb82gt on May 15, 2013, 07:56:57 AM
As far as I know, you could put the E7 heads on with the intake and leave the cam alone. You wont see as big of gains, but it would help. The stock 14lb injectors may be nearing their limit though, but I think should still be OK.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 15, 2013, 09:09:16 AM
Quote from: mcb82gt;415185
As far as I know, you could put the E7 heads on with the intake and leave the cam alone. You wont see as big of gains, but it would help. The stock 14lb injectors may be nearing their limit though, but I think should still be OK.
Thanks, if this is the case I'll go ahead and buy the heads and intake. The price is too good to pass up. SO are the stock mustang injectors from 89-91 14lb. or is that what my Cougar injectors are?
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: turbotrav on May 15, 2013, 09:27:51 AM
stock 87-93 mustang/lincoln 5.0 HO mark 7 are 19lbs...I believe they are brown..
Your stock injectors are tiny...14lbs
Also if you do the head and cam swap you should be able to just install the 87-88 Mustang 5.0 auto computer and then have the 225 hp the mustang enjoys. Your factory cam...is a pencil compared to the stock HO cam...which is pretty mild compared to what is out there..
Travis
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 15, 2013, 01:10:39 PM
With all HO components other than the E7 heads you'll make approx 200-205Hp... Basically you'll have the '86 HO engine rated at 200Hp that originally used SO intake and a 58mm throttle body vs the '87 up 60mm... Or in other words, the HO cam will net you far more HP than the E7 heads...
Other than maybe a club, I can't think of anything that would be a good use tor the SO cam...
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 15, 2013, 03:07:02 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;415217
With all HO components other than the E7 heads you'll make approx 200-205Hp... Basically you'll have the '86 HO engine rated at 200Hp that originally used SO intake and a 58mm throttle body vs the '87 up 60mm... Or in other words, the HO cam will net you far more HP than the E7 heads...
Other than maybe a club, I can't think of anything that would be a good use tor the SO cam...
I think the Mustang engine the heads come from was rated at 225. Are you saying I should get to around 200hp by doing just the exhaust, heads, intake and injectors? I'd find that very acceptable if that's the case.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 15, 2013, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: Pacerized;415224
I think the Mustang engine the heads come from was rated at 225. Are you saying I should get to around 200hp by doing just the exhaust, heads, intake and injectors? I'd find that very acceptable if that's the case.
No that's not what I said... You'll need the HO cam if you want more than probably 175/180Hp, no matter what other mods you make...
With the HO cam you need at least the computer, 19Lb inj(Ford list them as gold but all I've seen are orange or a golden caramel color), 60mm TB along with EGR spacer and headers/exhaust... The HO intake will net maybe another 4/5 Hp and the E7 approx 20Hp... Without all the mentioned parts, the E7 swapped onto a SO may give you a 10-12Hp increase...
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 15, 2013, 04:22:27 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50;415228
No that's not what I said... You'll need the HO cam if you want more than probably 175/180Hp, no matter what other mods you make...
With the HO cam you need at least the computer, 19Lb inj(Ford list them as gold but all I've seen are orange or a golden caramel color), 60mm TB along with EGR spacer and headers/exhaust... The HO intake will net maybe another 4/5 Hp and the E7 approx 20Hp... Without all the mentioned parts, the E7 swapped onto a SO may give you a 10-12Hp increase...
I have the 165 hp 5.0 now but with the fake dual exhaust going to a single 1 7/8" point with a restrictive cat. I've had it suggested that I'd gain 12-14 hp just by going to a true dual 2 1/4" exhaust and headers while doing nothing else. I'd hope to get a little more with the head and intake change.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Masejoer on May 15, 2013, 07:04:06 PM
I have to question, what makes the price "too good to pass up"? The cam and heads are the most complicated and "expensive" (new support items like gaskets, coolant, etc.) to swap out so if the head upgrade could go further for just a few more dollars, I'd start there instead. Just my opinion. If the heads are ~$50 or less, then for the price, you can't lose. The head gaskets will cost as much as the heads, or more. The cam and head upgrades would work fine while you decide what/when to replace other parts, and still provide a bit more power with the stock intake and exhaust. I'm kinda curious how something of such nature would drive. It should have a bunch more lowend torque, that's for sure. i assume huge plateau of torque.
As suggested, the cam swap would really help, and it can grow well enough with future mods. The exhaust I'm not sure will do much. It will help, but the E6 heads don't really flow.
There is something to be said about the reworked heads, if they did indeed have some good stuff done to them. If the springs are tired, there still isn't much value in the heads. You'd need to dump another $100 on new springs.
I've become all about making sure it's done "right" the first time. I've had enough do-overs on things from projects not performing as expected and eventually costing much more than necessary - basically tossing money away. Hell, years ago if I had just purchased a new shortblock, the amount of money I have in rebuilding a stock-blocked motor could have gotten me a DART-blocked based engine. That's likely just a horrible fluke due to me going with a bad shop for the machine work. At least I learned a lot - more than most people care to ever learn.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 15, 2013, 07:13:16 PM
Quote from: Seek;415238
I have to question, what makes the price "too good to pass up"? The cam and heads are the most complicated and "expensive" (new support items like gaskets, coolant, etc. to swap out so if the head upgrade could go further for just a few more dollars, I'd start there instead. Just my opinion. If the heads are ~$50 or less, then for the price, you can't lose. The head gaskets will cost as much as the heads, or more. The cam and head upgrades would work fine while you decide what/when to replace other parts, and still provide a bit more power with the stock intake and exhaust. I'm kinda curious how something of such nature would drive. It should have a bunch more lowend torque, that's for sure. i assume huge plateau of torque.
As suggested, the cam swap would really help, and it can grow well enough with future mods. The exhaust I'm not sure will do much. It will help, but the E6 heads don't really flow.
There is something to be said about the reworked heads, if they did indeed have some good stuff done to them. If the springs are tired, there still isn't much value in the heads. You'd need to dump another $100 on new springs.
From what I'm he just replaced needed valves and all seats 5K ago on the heads then upgraded and no longer needs them, he only wants $35 for the heads and $10 for the headers. He checked and he does have both the injectors and the intake, but I haven't gotten with him on price for that yet. My biggest obstacle to doing anything isn't ability it's time. I have a family and a very demanding job, finding an hour here and there during the winter is tough, in the summer it's impossible. Finding a day to work on a car anytime will never happen and I don't want to get into a project where my engine is torn apart for weeks. Thus I don't want to do the mass air conversion or really even get into the changing the cam even though it would make sense while I had it torn down to that point.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Masejoer on May 15, 2013, 07:31:57 PM
Quote from: Pacerized;415239
From what I'm he just replaced needed valves and all seats 5K ago on the heads then upgraded and no longer needs them, he only wants $35 for the heads and $10 for the headers. He checked and he does have both the injectors and the intake, but I haven't gotten with him on price for that yet. My biggest obstacle to doing anything isn't ability it's time. I have a family and a very demanding job, finding an hour here and there during the winter is tough, in the summer it's impossible. Finding a day to work on a car anytime will never happen and I don't want to get into a project where my engine is torn apart for weeks. Thus I don't want to do the mass air conversion or really even get into the changing the cam even though it would make sense while I had it torn down to that point.
So do you think the springs have 100k miles on them? 200k miles? Stock springs are always pretty poor for high revving motors, and after that age, they've just gotten weaker. With the stock transmission, it would likely still run fine for some time, but I'd want to know more about the springs, check the actual seating/seal, and what was done exactly with the valves and guides. The last thing you need is a head failing in 10-20k miles.
If time is an issue, I wouldn't exactly say heads are quick either (ESPECIALLY if you wanted to do it right with measurements, quench height, etc). The heads and cam change really go hand-in-hand and both take a bit of work/time. Everything else you could replace, but without the valve events from the cam to help pump the air in and out, there is only so much to be gained.
Doing a minor upgrade to the intake and exhaust will help lean out the rich mixture being commanded at wide open throttle. I think if you are looking for much beyond 180hp, you really need to upgrade the heart and lungs of the system - the cam and heads.
The stock motor isn't 165hp either. It would be 155hp new with the Y-to-Y exhaust from the factory. The car's likely making a bit less now days with other parts just simply worn out or clogged.
I'd say if you don't have the day to do a head swap, you can do the tb/upper intake, headers, and exhaust. Any deeper, I'd go full upgrade, including new timing chain, waterpump, etc.
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Pacerized on May 15, 2013, 11:48:24 PM
Quote from: Seek;415241
So do you think the springs have 100k miles on them? 200k miles? Stock springs are always pretty poor for high revving motors, and after that age, they've just gotten weaker. With the stock transmission, it would likely still run fine for some time, but I'd want to know more about the springs, check the actual seating/seal, and what was done exactly with the valves and guides. The last thing you need is a head failing in 10-20k miles. If time is an issue, I wouldn't exactly say heads are quick either (ESPECIALLY if you wanted to do it right with measurements, quench height, etc). The heads and cam change really go hand-in-hand and both take a bit of work/time. Everything else you could replace, but without the valve events from the cam to help pump the air in and out, there is only so much to be gained. Doing a minor upgrade to the intake and exhaust will help lean out the rich mixture being commanded at wide open throttle. I think if you are looking for much beyond 180hp, you really need to upgrade the heart and lungs of the system - the cam and heads. The stock motor isn't 165hp either. It would be 155hp new with the Y-to-Y exhaust from the factory. The car's likely making a bit less now days with other parts just simply worn out or clogged.
I'd say if you don't have the day to do a head swap, you can do the tb/upper intake, headers, and exhaust. Any deeper, I'd go full upgrade, including new timing chain, waterpump, etc.
That's good advice, I'll check the heads out and try to get all the details before deciding to move forward. I looked it up you're right about the hp on the Cougar, for some reason I thought it was 165. The car has 78k on it. I had the intake off during the winter when I changed the valve cover gaskets and it did have a lot of carbon buildup with I cleaned out as well as I could. I would think the stock heads also have this issue. I've rebuilt complete engines in my youth but it's been a long time. I never found heads to be a big deal. Honestly I have my limits for now with how much time I can put into the Cougar but I'd think I could do the heads and intake in a few hours and would still be very happy to get 180 hp. Thanks: Charlie
Title: Question on heads and intake
Post by: Masejoer on May 16, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
Quote from: Pacerized;415256
. Honestly I have my limits for now with how much time I can put into the Cougar but I'd think I could do the heads and intake in a few hours and would still be very happy to get 180 hp. Thanks: Charlie
I'd say just the lower intake itself would take you a few hours. You have to drain the coolant and everything, reinstall the gasket correctly afterward, my preference is drain the oil a couple times after assembly, etc. Hoses are a pain to get off.
A few years ago I could pull and reinstall heads in half of the available daylight, after battling/troubleshooting a motor issue. This was expensive with new gaskets each time, and I didn't have the 1 5/8" headers which now simply take hours to remove and install. This last go, I swapped up to some TW 170cc heads and a ported lower intake. I gave myself a week to do it but it still took a few weekends to make sure everything was right as I built it up. What if you need different length pushrods and need to order them? I did the full clay piston to valve clearance, re-checked my deck, cc'd the chambers, etc...that does indeed take much more time. You can also only really know which gasket is ideal after you have the heads off and can measure where your piston sits in the bore. If it sticks out for any reason (shouldn't stock), you'll want a thicker headgasket. Good luck finding the right ones in stock some place on a Sunday. Mine were ordered from a warehouse, but for next-day pickup (Monday).
Just as a quick swap with throwing good-enough parts on without measurements, I'd give myself 2 days if you haven't done it often or recently. It can take half a day if everything goes right and you know what you're doing, but all the little things add up. Just remember that you're pulling all the accessory brackets off, front exhaust, etc when doing the heads. By this time, you're only a few more bolts away from cam.