So my brakes pedal is completely stiff. I wont press down at all. Both of my brakes light are on in the dash. What could be wrong? Boost or master or something else?
my mech said that it isnt a standard vacuum brake system, it has more electronics because of ABS and he doesn't have the machines to check why the 2 brake lights were on in the dash. He said that new ones are pricey... bad day for me...
Ok so your booster assembly is shot or has an electrical issue. Better start checking the circuit. Sounds like you have a wiring problem. Most likely the power relay. Time to get out the test light. The system is electric. You have no power assist. The system is DOWN. If the unit is shot better convert it. Or i have a working unit in a car i am converting. Or i am sure someone has a good used unit. But better start troubleshooting!!
MOST LIKELY THE RELAY. Or possibly the ignition switch!!!
Pump relay or fuse link S. Check this first !!!
:hick::mullet:
I dont know anything about the wiring. Where is the power relay, pump relay and fuse link? I had a bad windshield leak on the driver side, it wouldnt surprise me if that caused this problem.
Not real familiar with the setup, but the Relays should be in the fold down tray in the trunk, behind the rear seat, and next to the ABS Computer. If it ends up being worse case scenario, and you need another ABS unit, I will let my 88 TC's piece go for cheap. It still works perfectly, I just don't need it anymore as I am converting over to Vac-Assist.
http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/TEVES%20II%20ELECTRO-HYDRAULIC%20BRAKING%20SYSTEM%2087-88%20TCs.htm
Get to reading. The last section applies to your situation.
I have the whole vacuum assist setup for the swap if you're interested, just throwing it out there.
Thank you all for the help. Is a vacuum setup just as good?
Chuck W. That helped me out alot. One question. I dont understand this line, " Use a heavy gauge jumper wire to jumper the T/Y and GY/R wires in the socket. The pump motor should run."
I am using jumpers cables to start just the plastic relay box?
A heavy gauge wire for that jumper would be something like a #10 wire... #12 and maybe #14 would likely be OK, but no smaller...
Probably 9 times out of 10 the pump motor relay is at fault...
No... Something like a 12ga or 10ga wire. Jumper wire does not mean jumper cables.
I've done the swap on both of my 88 TC's and had no problems. Ditch the abs its nothing but trouble
How hard is the swap? I have no specialty tools.
Why don't you just see what the issue is with the ABS before you think about swapping systems?
I agree with Chuck, could be as simple as a relay or accumulator ball.
I gotta agree that the ABS setup on these cars is nothing but trouble with the way it's designed, and you'd be better off ditching it, but if a mechanic is doing all your work, it might be a little expensive to pay him to convert over to Vac-Assist as there is some slight modification and parts hunting involved. Will be much cheaper to just get him to throw in another ABS unit, as that is something that he can just bolt-on and plug-in. It all depends on what your end goals and budget are really.
Doesn't Maximum Motor Sports sell something to do the conversion.
http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/MM-MMBAK2/1987-93-Mustang-Adapter-Brake-Lines-For-Svo-Master-Cylinder
That line setup is for converting for the master!!
The ABS setup on the TC is GARBAGE. But the booster is not. The systems are basically separate. But trying to fix the unit at hand might be a simple wiring issue or bad relay. Either you or your mechanic will have to do some troubleshooting. But it sounds like your mechanic does not know the system. So you have to go to plan B or C.
A fix the existing unit
B Convert it
C Get a mechanic that knows how to trouble shoot the system!!
Just for the record the location of the PUMP relay is NOT IN THE TRUNK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hydraulic Pump Brake Motor Relay (Anti-Lock Brakes):
LOCATION Cowl Top
Just some thoughts if i may!!!!!
The ABS system is basically separate from the BOOSTER.
The BOOSTER is self contained and Needs a battery feed to and from the relay. Check the relay properly and try running the pump motor. I have never seen a pump motor go bad. But that means nothing it has to be checked. So check the relay and the pump motor and fuse link S,
NOTE the 1987 shows fuse link C I think this is a miss print. Either way check the fuse links at the starter solenoid!!!
Personally, I like the electric booster set-up. The early ABS systems all suck, but I did enjoy the consistent feel of the electric booster in my Scorpio, which is the same set-up, basically.
If I was bored, I might consider a booster swap into the TBird. However, I have MANY other things to do instead of that.
IMO, the OP should diagnose what's actually wrong first, then decide if he should consider the vac-assist swap.
Another PLUS of converting to VACUUM is the ability to use a SPUN UPPER. That is a BIG BIG BIG PLUS. So at this point you might want to do the conversion and call it a DAY. Just saying!!!
So it turns out where the power source is for the brakes in the trunk is all wet. So the unit is probably fried... Vacuum brake time!
what is a spun upper?
That is the ABS section. The electric booster can still be GOOD.
A spun upper is turned 90* so it faces directly forward.
Will I loose weight doing the swap over to vacuum?
If it takes you a while and you skip lunch and dinner you might.
Being serious though, the Teves unit is pretty heavy so you might lose a little weight. It is also a pain to remove as the nuts under the dash are kind of tough to get to.
Use a 3' extension and a swivel. Remove the drivers seat and you are good to go!!
I had an easy time removing the brake booster, don't know what all the fuss people have put up there was about. With the drivers seat out, and the right tools on hand, I had mine out in 20 minutes. The TEVES ABS unit is not really heavy at all, unless you consider 15lbs heavy. Honestly the hardest part is swapping out the brake pedal for the correct non-ABS pedal, and modifying the brake lines to fit the SVO MC. The stock ABS brake pedal will work with the Vac-Booster, but you won't have quite the braking action that you should have without the correct non-ABS vac boost brake pedal installed. I believe MM sells a kit to connect the stock prop to the SVO MC, as well. Once you have all the parts on hand, it shouldn't take you more than a leisurely evening to get fully done.
I have the same problem with a TC we just got running. Where can I find wiring diagram for the electric boost system?
Start with the link I posted in post #6. That'll help with trouble-shooting.
Thanks Chuck, that will be a great help. Sorry I must have missed the link when I was scanning through the post.
Why did you have to change the brake pedal?
As far as loosing weight with removing the ABS yes the master is only 15lbs but if you gut all the wiring that goes along with it you would probably be loosing closer to 60lbs
Do not use the SVO MC unless you are changing over the brakes to the larger SVO's. If you use the SVO MC with the stock brakes it will feel like trying to do a 500lb leg press when you try and stop the car.
It was not the correct pedal, as also confirmed by many on Turbo Ford.
I've already dissected the entire wiring harness, and removed all the ABS wiring and the computer from the car. All the PRC and ABS wiring/computers combined weighed in at 18lbs, not much of a loss, but I wanted all that wiring out of there.
I am swapping on the larger MKVII calipers.
Like I always do, I did all my research before ever even buying the first part.
Just for laughs what is the correct PEDAL and from what CAR!!! This should be INTERESTING !!! And what ratio are we talking about!!!
60 LBS DIFFERENCE ?
Any non-ABS pedal from an 83-88 Fox.
Higher caliber builds require the correct parts. ;)
Meee thinks same...
Have a good spare just in case mine poops out, I'll only convert to vac as a last resort...
For the record I've never seen a real issue with the ABS, in testing and the few times I've got that hard into the brakes(usually trying not to run out at the drag strip) they did exactly what they were supposed to...
That does seem to be a stretch but if all the ABS and ride control harness is pulled out, maybe... Problem with yanking all the wiring is the ECM test port is in that harness and if not stripped out and reconnected, there is no way to easily read codes...
The ECM test port is in that harness, but is completely separate from the ABS/PRC wiring. It's only a matter of peeling off the factory electrical tape, and separating it out of the bundle, other than that it doesn't have to be touched whatsoever to rid the car of the ABS/PRC wiring.
OP: If you can trace wire colors then you should be all good here.
Big B actually the T BIRD pedal ratio is 3.3 and the mustang is only 2.7. So the T Bird pedal is actually better for conversion. The rule of thumb is for manual brakes should be 6 or better and power should be around 4 plus or minus. So i would stay with the T Bird pedals for the extra ratio. But then again you can modify any one of the pedals for more ratio. But be advised your welding skills must be extremely good. So personally i cant figure out why a pedal change is in order???
Alright so i have been able to find time to work on the brake system and something dawned on me, when I was trying to find the ignition timing after I swapped my cam pulleys and at one point when i was turning it over, I heard this pumping sound (it almost sounded like gulping). Now if that was my brake pump motor, I turned it over a few times and if the pump is also connecting to the ignition switch, this would turn the pump on. So i think I burnt out the pump or did something worse....
If it is just the pump, where can I find a new one at?
Have you even run through the diagnostics on that link I posted yet?
I have a question. "Use a heavy gauge jumper wire to jumper the T/Y and GY/R wires in the socket." I cant figure out what ones are the T/Y and the GY/R. Also is it saying run two different heavy gauge wires from the battery to each of the sockets?
Well...
T/Y = Teal(or Turquoise)/Yellow
GY/R = Grey/Red
One is + and one is -... as shown on the little diagram of the socket. The part about connecting to the battery is AFTER you test something else and it doesn't work.
The rest of the instructions are written in plain English. Not sure what is so hard to follow, honestly.
I used these same instructions (or similar ones) when I was troubleshooting the system in the Merk. It's not that difficult.
Well chuck I appreciate you help.
But in honesty, I am 100% sure there is stuff you don't have a clue about and some extra help may be needed. Idk maybe like gunsmith work, (or to even a fire weapon with good form and precision) or trying to figure out an area of moment on a I-beam that is 39x8 with a thickness of .85". (There are other parts too the measurements, if you'd like to know, ask.)
"The rest of the instructions are written in plain English. Not sure what is so hard to follow, honestly."
This is unneeded... really. I have never done anything with the wiring in the car (besides fixing a tad bit of the injector harness), so it does seem a tad daunting to me.
So lets keep the chat helpful and chipper! Thank you!
When I post up pretty specific instructions for trouble-shooting, and they go largely ignored, I tend to lose my patience. If I don't know something I need to know to fix something, I figure it out, and above all I read the manual/instructions. I didn't know how to weld...I figured it out. I had never done ANY kind of electronics project...I figured it out and built a MegaSquirt for my car.
As to your other statements, I have an ME degree and deal with a lot of applied engineering issues daily, so I'm sure I'd be able to figure out the I-beam question. As far as the "firing a weapon" goes, I've done it numerous times, and if I was all hot and bothered to geek out about it, then good form and precision wouldn't be an issue. Until that time, the 12ga shot gun will do just fine at keeping the halls clear.
My advice is to actually read the instructions. Numerous times if needed, until you understand what's going on. Honestly I see this a lot from you. You post an issue, people give suggestions and tips, and they pretty much go unheeded, while you apparently look for an "easier" route to fix the problem, or for someone to tell you what the exact problem is, so you can just fix it and not do any trouble-shooting.
Well I am sorry to hear they go largely ignored. I am just finding the time to work on my car (alot of school work, work and comp shooting). I am going to be checking everything today from the instructions. Well figuring stuff out is great if you have time! Well I am sure I am not the only one that needs to ask questions after hearing a lingo they aren't to fond with.
And on a good 90% of tips that people give me, I use. Some are outlandish so I don't all. But I have followed a lot of troubling shooting tips.
I don't see your logic with your last statement. "while you apparently look for an "easier" route to fix the problem, or for someone to tell you what the exact problem is, so you can just fix it and not do any trouble-shooting." I don't see the problem in someone telling another the person the exact problem.... Especially if the person needing help is a busy person and doesn't have much time to trouble-shoot, if any.
Busy? Welcome to the adult world. No one has time.
Anyway, without you doing the trouble-shooting, no one can point you in the right direction. That's why those procedures have been written...so people can systematically, and efficiently determine the source of the problem. The alternative is to throw parts (and money) at it, hoping you fix it. Since we're not there in front of your car, and it's not as simple as visually identifying a broken part, you have to do the diagnosis yourself. We can't probe wires, etc from here.
The answer to your problem lies in the info contained on that page. It's up to you to figure out the culprit.
Well the only thing i know about beams is when we expanded the shop.
John Churic supplied us with a 10" Wide 33 Beam app 30 feet long and it weighed 990 lbs. That is about all i know about BEAMS. The MOTHER WAS so heavy i wanted to CRY. It was my job to get it in the shop for the garage door opening. And it took 20 of my friends to move it. Other than that the iron workers lifted it and installed it like it was a feather. Naturally they had machines. other than that it is used all the time to hold up the building. That was 40 Years ago.
BUSY it is my thinking that GOD messed up when he made the universe and man and women.
Why in the world would he give you a new set of TEETH at 7 years old and not 47. That was a big one. And second why would he only make 24 hours in a day??? Doubling that would be a PLUS. And last but not least why did he give me parts that have a shelf life. That was a big one and i wonder if he was feeling silly when he decided that one !!!
:toilet::toilet:
How about making most of us wait until our bodies are just about worn out and we can't hardly remember our own names before we can retire. The Good Book says something about us regressing back to the state of childhood....more diapers (YUK!)
You got it DIAPERS!!!!
So the relay under my vacuum doesnt match the colors that the webpage chuch gave me. It should have GY/Y, T/Y, GY/R, and PK/LB but I have GY/R, RED/YELLOW, a bare wire and a pink wire. So I figure that the T/Y from the page is my R/Y and the GY/Y is the bare wire. So I connected the R/Y and GY/R. I heard a buzzing sound I i figure that to be the pump motor. So now I need to test on the PUMP MOTOR RELAY but I cant find it. I know what is looks like from the drawing on the webpage chuck gave me but I cant find it. But it seems like a have it narrowed down to the Ignition switch or the PWS. But I need help with where the PUMP MOTOR RELAY is.
I guess the T/Y (Tan/Yellow) could look reddish with age.
There should not be a bare wire. Does it look like it overheated and burned the insulation off? If the GY/Y wire overheated and the Pink wire looks ok, the crimp on the GY/Y wire must have failed . Is the bare wire still connected to the relay plug or did it burn off?
If it goes to relay plug position 2, it is the GY/Y wire from the ignition switch. With the ignition in RUN, don't start the engine, it should have 12 volts on it. Check it and see.
That sounds good.
The relay you are looking at above is the pump motor relay.
The section of the ignition switch that powers the pump motor relay also powers the IVR in the instrument cluster. Do the fuel gauge, oil pressure gauge and temperature gauge work?
Fuse link E is unique to the pump motor relay and the HEGO heaters. It should have blown to protect the wires from overheating.
In the diagrams below:
Fuse Link E. At the LH fender apr0n near the starter relay. (but not connected to the starter relay)
Connector C299. LH front of engine compartment, Gray 4 pin connector
Continued.
i hope this diagram as well can help, once upon a time i had to troubleshoot this and took some notes and put them on the drawing.
there are a lot of instructions on this page.
Thanks for all the help this post has given me. Thanks to the write up Chuck W posted I was able to determine my pump motor was running then I was able to find the pump itself was bad. Put the spare from my parts car on bleed the brakes and all is well. WHOOOO HOOOO!!!!!!
it does look like it over heated. Some of the cover got burnt one to another wire it looks like. The wire is bare for about 2-3 inches. I can look onto the black tubing where the wires go and I can see the wire cover an inch down. It seems like it is still plugged in but my test light isnt turning on when I turn the car to RUN.
All of my gauges work fine.
I even placed the test light on the bare wire and it didnt light up.
When using your test light under the hood, always touch it to the battery plus terminal to make sure you have a good ground on the light.
Try to find a gray 4 wire connector at the "left hand dash panel near the windshield wiper motor".
It should have the GY/Y wire we are trying to trace. The other wires in the connector are W/LB, P/W and LG/Y.
Does the GY/Y wire looked burned here? Unplug the connector and check for voltage on the GY/Y (ignition in run).
From here you will have to follow the GY/Y wire to find a blue fuse link. You will have to open-up the cable harness.
The EVTM says the fuse link is near the starter relay. Not sure I believe that. Don't be surprised if the wire goes through the fire wall to the area of the fuse panel.
If the fuse link is blown, and I suspect it is, you will have to replace the fuse link, the damaged wire, the relay socket and the relay.
Okay thank you for your help. I'll go check that out now.
I see a grey connector that shares a mounting unit with the windshield wiper motor but it has 6 wires. I do see a grey one however and it is not burnt. I'll start testing on it and figuring out where it goes.
Make sure it is a gray with yellow stripe wire. Are the other wire colors I gave you in the connector?
Don't want you going off on a tangent.
I have conflicting info on the where the 4 wire connector is. I gave you the one that seemed most logical to me.
The other location is "Left hand front of the engine compartment".
Like i posted above the relay battery feed needs to be checked. The insulation peeling back is classic heat and most likely the cause. Check the system carefully from the fuse link to the relay in and out. If you do not have battery you found the problem.
:hick:
So the grey wire I found near the windshield wiper motor didnt have a yellow strip to it that I could see. Well I dug around more and I can't find a 4 wire connector anywhere that has the GY/Y stripe... I looked near the wiper fluid and the power steering and I found the GY/Y wire by its self. It connects and turns into a blue wire. I'll keep digging around looking for that 4 pin connector.
Okay, i'll look through my manual and see where the relay battery feed is and start checking that out.
Alright so that blue wire goes to fuse E then turn back into GY/Y. I also found the 4 wire plug down below the wiper motor. I am wrestling to get it unplugged now.
The BLUE wire is the fuse link. When it blows, the wire inside it breaks. Try stretching it. If the wire is broke it willl stretch.
So the fuse link ink (It is blue) looks fine. On the 4 pin connector, the GY/Y wire has 12v going to it so its fine.
alright, i'll go give it to stout pull.
so the fuse is pretty thick hard almost plastic like rubber and its not budging.
Voltage at thr 4 wire connector says the fuse link is good.
Does the wire at the 4 wire connector look ok? Not burned.
The only thing between the 4 wire connector and the relay socket is wire.
Plug the 4 wire connector back together again and check for voltage at the relay socket again.(the bare wire)
OKay, I will do that now. Thanks again for your help. I really appreciate it.
So after connecting the 4 pin socket in. the bare wire at the relay has 12v volts... I am very confused. I didn't fix anything, and now that has power.
So I plugged everything back in, I started up my car. The brake pedal is still stiff. However when I turned it off and putt the car to RUN, I could hear the brake motor buzzing.
So my brake pedal softened up and my brakes work great now! I am unsure to be happy because it works are nervous without fixing anything, it could just stop working again....
NOPE You fixes a classic issue DIRTY CONTACTS. I would remove the plug hard wire solder it and shrink tubing. Basically you cleaned the connector when you separated it and reconnected it. That plug is sketchy and needs to be repaired. Bare wires means HEAT and that should have immediately sent you there as the trouble. Good job :hick::hick::hick:
Better check the connections on the plugs. Bet they are corroded and burnt. You will have to address that connection as explained above. That connection is FAULTY!!