Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: jimmi6857 on April 03, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
Post by: jimmi6857 on April 03, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
I am working on a 1986 Cougar for a friend. We have installed a 5.0 HO from Jasper, (Windsor firing order, level 1 cam, 9.0 compression ratio) and a complete intake from a 1988 Mustang, (HO upper plenum, 19 lbhr injectors, etc.), and a ECM from the 1988. Have learned ( I guess better late than never) about speed density shortcomings and we're currently searching for ECM, MAF setup we can use. Does anyone know offhand which vehicles might have the setup I need, what are the MAF parameters given the injectors, cam, etc.? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 03, 2013, 11:32:55 AM
Post by: 86cougar on April 03, 2013, 11:32:55 AM
Hey guys, This is my "86" my friend is working on. I believe the compression is actually 9.2, and the engine is a "87" Mustang H/O. He bought the same ECM as the "88" Mustang that he pulled the upper plenum, injectors. and much larger throttle body set up it had. Then found out that ford switched to speed density in 1988 and of course my "86" has MAF. I went ahead and put a duel exhaust with high flow cats., electric fan, and an under drive pulley set. This should be the last hurdle, any help will be appreciated!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2013, 12:05:35 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 03, 2013, 12:05:35 PM
Ford ran speed density on the Mustangs from 86-88 with the exception of the California cars in 88 as they had MAF. Do a search on here and you will turn up many threads covering the conversion and what EEC's will work. I know there is a thread on the Corral that lists all the compatible EEC's.
Darren
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 10:07:16 AM
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 10:07:16 AM
Aerocoupe,
I've been reading up on this forum on engine swaps and conversions. I was still having the same problem as my friend, finding the correct part number for the EEC that would work. Jimmi said that every where he went there was someone trying to sell him something and claiming that it would work (too many opinions). Thanks for suggesting the link to "The Corral", it looks like it has all the information we will need. Hopefully soon, I will get to let you know how my car turns out after all the work that has been done on it this last year. I've put over 10k and a year of work into it so now all I should need is oil, filter and hi octane. Being that I am moving out in the country and I retired about a year ago, my insurance will go down (I don't have to drive to work every day and a lot less traffic) and no more paying for emissions or the hassle. There is a family that I am told I am related to who lives across the street from my new house and they have about four hot rods and many more come to visit them (you can hear them coming). I'm sure it will get there attention once I have a lift installed in my garage and I move my vehicles down there. I can't wait! Again, Thanks, for your help!
I've been reading up on this forum on engine swaps and conversions. I was still having the same problem as my friend, finding the correct part number for the EEC that would work. Jimmi said that every where he went there was someone trying to sell him something and claiming that it would work (too many opinions). Thanks for suggesting the link to "The Corral", it looks like it has all the information we will need. Hopefully soon, I will get to let you know how my car turns out after all the work that has been done on it this last year. I've put over 10k and a year of work into it so now all I should need is oil, filter and hi octane. Being that I am moving out in the country and I retired about a year ago, my insurance will go down (I don't have to drive to work every day and a lot less traffic) and no more paying for emissions or the hassle. There is a family that I am told I am related to who lives across the street from my new house and they have about four hot rods and many more come to visit them (you can hear them coming). I'm sure it will get there attention once I have a lift installed in my garage and I move my vehicles down there. I can't wait! Again, Thanks, for your help!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: bigbada1 on April 04, 2013, 11:27:20 AM
Post by: bigbada1 on April 04, 2013, 11:27:20 AM
A9l a9p
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 88turbo on April 04, 2013, 02:02:09 PM
Post by: 88turbo on April 04, 2013, 02:02:09 PM
There is also a writeup on http://WWW.coolcats.net
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 03:22:22 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 03:22:22 PM
Quote from: bigbada1;412579
A9l a9p
What?
88Turbo,
Yea, I saw that. Eric has a lot of good imfo.!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 04, 2013, 04:55:19 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 04, 2013, 04:55:19 PM
Quote from: bigbada1;412579
A9l a9p
Quote from: 86cougar;412591
What?
88Turbo,
Yea, I saw that. Eric has a lot of good imfo.!
A9L and A9P are the codes for the computer that will work for a MAF swap in your car.
Just wondering but why do you need to do a MAF swap? A basically stock HO engine runs fine on speed density.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 07:40:57 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 07:40:57 PM
Oh, I got it. The reason I need to do a conversion, is because I have an "86" cougar that came with a stock 5.0 engine and MAF. I just put a "87" Mustang HO engine and got the upper plenum, throttle body and EEC from a "88" Mustang HO engine and it used speed density. So, if I understand where we are now, I just need the mass air sensor and MAF cable harness adapter and it will be done.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 04, 2013, 07:43:10 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 04, 2013, 07:43:10 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;412599
A9L and A9P are the codes for the computer that will work for a MAF swap in your car.
Just wondering but why do you need to do a MAF swap? A basically stock HO engine runs fine on speed density.
A stock HO actually runs better on a speed densety setup... In the real world the mass air Stangs were down about 15-20Hp from the SD and is basically why the '93 was down rated...
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2013, 08:40:37 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2013, 08:40:37 PM
TurboCoupe50,
Hang on a minute. If mass air was across the board on these cars starting in 89 why was the 93 the only year to be "down rated" because of mass air? Here is one of many good threads that this is debated on and a few guys post up some good tech that disproves that:
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/90-93-5-0-hp-factory-hp-rating.709173/
While SD cars typically make more power at the track, it is done by tuning the car run by run (basically being the mass air for the car). The mass air cars will out perform a SD car on the street as they can adapt to the atmospheric conditions, learn more aggressive cams, and take advantage of more air in and out of the motor. They also have their limitations but a quick tune and they once again perform very well and continue to adapt.
86cougar,
To my knowledge no Fox 5.0 T-Bird or Cougar came with an MAF factory. What I am gathering from your posts is that the car came with the stock SD 5.0 and had been converted to mass air as it had an mass air meter (MAF)? Then you removed that setup and installed an 87 5.0 out of a SD Mustang (they started mass air in the Mustang's in 88 but only in the California cars) and installed a SD computer and the car is currently in this configuration. Now you want to covert the current combination over to mass air. Is this all correct?
Darren
Hang on a minute. If mass air was across the board on these cars starting in 89 why was the 93 the only year to be "down rated" because of mass air? Here is one of many good threads that this is debated on and a few guys post up some good tech that disproves that:
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/90-93-5-0-hp-factory-hp-rating.709173/
While SD cars typically make more power at the track, it is done by tuning the car run by run (basically being the mass air for the car). The mass air cars will out perform a SD car on the street as they can adapt to the atmospheric conditions, learn more aggressive cams, and take advantage of more air in and out of the motor. They also have their limitations but a quick tune and they once again perform very well and continue to adapt.
86cougar,
To my knowledge no Fox 5.0 T-Bird or Cougar came with an MAF factory. What I am gathering from your posts is that the car came with the stock SD 5.0 and had been converted to mass air as it had an mass air meter (MAF)? Then you removed that setup and installed an 87 5.0 out of a SD Mustang (they started mass air in the Mustang's in 88 but only in the California cars) and installed a SD computer and the car is currently in this configuration. Now you want to covert the current combination over to mass air. Is this all correct?
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 09:29:29 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 09:29:29 PM
Aerocoupe,
The best way for me to answer that is have you read the first post here by jimmi. All I really know is that the car was completely stock when I bought it. The MAF has never been changed. The EEC he took off the "88" Mustang is for SD. He bought the EEC because of the difference in size of the upper plenum, throttle body and injectors (19 lbs.) that he took off that car. Like he said, he was unaware of the change from MAF to SD. That is what he told me. I hope that answers your question.
The best way for me to answer that is have you read the first post here by jimmi. All I really know is that the car was completely stock when I bought it. The MAF has never been changed. The EEC he took off the "88" Mustang is for SD. He bought the EEC because of the difference in size of the upper plenum, throttle body and injectors (19 lbs.) that he took off that car. Like he said, he was unaware of the change from MAF to SD. That is what he told me. I hope that answers your question.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 04, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Okay, only mass air cars have an MAF which look like this:
http://www.cjponyparts.com/product.aspx?p=MAM1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant&utm_campaign=shopping&gclid=CKiaocy1srYCFQvnnAodU1IAxw
This is an article out of MM&FF which talks about converting a SD Mustang over to a mass air car. Look at the two pictures about half way down the page showing the engine compartment. You will see in the second picture the MAF mounted in between the air filter housing and the throttle body:
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0910_mass_airflow_conversion/viewall.html
Found this article on a random search and had to post it:
http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0705_pitstop_ford_thunderbird_mass_air_sensor/
Anyhow, if your 86 had a SD EEC in it and the MAF then I would assume that the MAF was never wired up to the EEC and the air was just passing through it or they attempted to wire it up and the car either ran like or did not run.
Darren
http://www.cjponyparts.com/product.aspx?p=MAM1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant&utm_campaign=shopping&gclid=CKiaocy1srYCFQvnnAodU1IAxw
This is an article out of MM&FF which talks about converting a SD Mustang over to a mass air car. Look at the two pictures about half way down the page showing the engine compartment. You will see in the second picture the MAF mounted in between the air filter housing and the throttle body:
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_0910_mass_airflow_conversion/viewall.html
Found this article on a random search and had to post it:
http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0705_pitstop_ford_thunderbird_mass_air_sensor/
Anyhow, if your 86 had a SD EEC in it and the MAF then I would assume that the MAF was never wired up to the EEC and the air was just passing through it or they attempted to wire it up and the car either ran like or did not run.
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 10:54:33 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 04, 2013, 10:54:33 PM
From what I read on the link you sent me, my car came with a MAP not a MAF. I really need to get jimmi on here to let us all know where he's at with it. Last time I talked to him he was going to buy a sensor for the SD set up. I think it is all he's missing along with a MAF harness adapter.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 04, 2013, 11:13:11 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 04, 2013, 11:13:11 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;412618
TurboCoupe50,
Hang on a minute. If mass air was across the board on these cars starting in 89 why was the 93 the only year to be "down rated" because of mass air? Here is one of many good threads that this is debated on and a few guys post up some good tech that disproves that:
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/90-93-5-0-hp-factory-hp-rating.709173/
Darren
There was really no big difference in any of the '88-'93 Mass air Stangs, all were slower than the '87-'88 SD versions, just took Ford five years to get around to admitting they made less HP...
I converted a '86 to Mass Air that I was planning major mods but never did... Running SD with underdrives, 1.7 rockers & a 2.5" cat back system it'd run a traction less 14.50 all day long... After I converted it to MA it felt slow and the best it ever ran was a 14.72, lost MPH as well... Pissed at the MA, I converted it back to SD at the track that same night and it picked up the missing .22...
Of course if the engine is modified the Mass Air is the way to go... Using the same ECM I had in the Stang, the Bird went 13.11 & 12.23 with the blue Smurf in the trunk.... Of course it had a 76mm MAF meter, 65mm TB, 24lb inj, Trick Flow heads & cam, 1 5/8" headers with full 2.5" exhaust system, etc, etc...
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
Aerocoupe,
I really enjoyed the links you sent me! Now I have a better idea what the difference is between mass air and speed density. So, if I'm guessing right, the car came with MAF, then when he bought the upper plenum and EEC from the "88" Mustang it was speed density and it looks like he is going to convert it back. The reason I say that is he said he needs a MAF harness adapter. I'm sure glad he figured this out before I did. This Cougar is the only car I own with a computer, all my 40's-50's cars, truck, jeep don't have it. So, it's been like stepping off a cliff with this one. I had better learn to fly before I hit the ground. Jimmi and I have been friends for several years, I really like the work he's done on my car and I've learned a lot from him. Thing is he always involves my every step of the way, so I always have to learn more about what he is doing and he always takes the time to explain it to me. The last time I took an automotive class was back in 1980 after I got out of the USAF. Now that I am about to turn "56" I only seem to have a great short term memory..... like for the first three minutes. Thanks!
I really enjoyed the links you sent me! Now I have a better idea what the difference is between mass air and speed density. So, if I'm guessing right, the car came with MAF, then when he bought the upper plenum and EEC from the "88" Mustang it was speed density and it looks like he is going to convert it back. The reason I say that is he said he needs a MAF harness adapter. I'm sure glad he figured this out before I did. This Cougar is the only car I own with a computer, all my 40's-50's cars, truck, jeep don't have it. So, it's been like stepping off a cliff with this one. I had better learn to fly before I hit the ground. Jimmi and I have been friends for several years, I really like the work he's done on my car and I've learned a lot from him. Thing is he always involves my every step of the way, so I always have to learn more about what he is doing and he always takes the time to explain it to me. The last time I took an automotive class was back in 1980 after I got out of the USAF. Now that I am about to turn "56" I only seem to have a great short term memory..... like for the first three minutes. Thanks!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 05, 2013, 12:53:42 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 05, 2013, 12:53:42 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;412652
Aerocoupe,
I really enjoyed the links you sent me! Now I have a better idea what the difference is between mass air and speed density. So, if I'm guessing right, the car came with MAF, then when he bought the upper plenum and EEC from the "88" Mustang it was speed density and it looks like he is going to convert it back.
Not quite. An 86 Cougar came with Speed Density. There is no way an 86 Cougar was MAF from the factory. Not possible. It was Speed Density. If a 5.0 HO is stock it will run the same no matter if it is run with a Speed Density Computer or a MAF computer. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a stock 5.0 HO that came out of a Speed Density car or a MAF car. Just because the engine came from a MAF car doesn't mean that MAF is required to run it. The engine will run fine on Speed Density. The block, heads, intake (both upper and lower plenum), injectors, cam, throttle body, and rockers are the same parts from 1987-1993 on a 5.0 HO. Look at it this way: in 1991 you could buy either a Mustang with a 5.0 HO or a Lincoln Mark VII with a 5.0 HO. Both of these engine use the same parts. The Mustang has a MAF computer and the Mark VII has a Speed Density computer. The same engine, run by two differnt engine computers.
You may be confusing MAF and MAP. MAF stands for MASS AIR FLOW. MAP is MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE, which can be another name for Speed Density:D.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 05, 2013, 01:39:12 PM
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 05, 2013, 01:39:12 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;412658
Not quite. An 86 Cougar came with Speed Density. There is no way an 86 Cougar was MAF from the factory. Not possible. It was Speed Density.
Agreed ... The first of any Ford to get mas air was the Calif '88 Mustang with 49 states models changing in '89... Mass Air never existed before '88 and never on a Fox T-Bird or Cougar......
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 02:29:46 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 02:29:46 PM
When Jimmi first got the car together with the new engine and rebuilt transmission, it was running rich. Then he talked to a friend of his and he said it was because of switching to MAF (EEC) and not having it hooked up correctly, that's why we need the harness adapter. So, from what I understand, Jimmi if getting the parts needed. From what I have read here, the MAF is better for daily driving and the SD is better for the track. There is obviously a lot of information out there on the conversion, the part that seems to bring about some debate is because of how Ford used to rate HP it seems confusing to many as to which system will give you the most HP. From what I have read the SD system will let you get away with more modifications than MAF. What my car came with is EFI and map sensor, which will not allow much as far as modifications. From what I understand happened is that Jimmi bought a EEC for MAF and my car was set up for SD and not wired right. Does that make sense? Thanks!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 02:33:46 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 02:33:46 PM
If it's a stock style H.O engine, leave it Speed Density. Done.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 02:47:05 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 02:47:05 PM
Vinniebird,
So, I guess it would be easier and better to just buy another EEC (bring he got the wrong one) for the stock set up and it will re-learn and adjust to my new engine, dual exhaust, cam, 19lb. injectors, and upper plenum after a couple of hours running it. Sound right?
So, I guess it would be easier and better to just buy another EEC (bring he got the wrong one) for the stock set up and it will re-learn and adjust to my new engine, dual exhaust, cam, 19lb. injectors, and upper plenum after a couple of hours running it. Sound right?
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 05, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 05, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
Quote from: 86cougar;412663
When Jimmi first got the car together with the new engine and rebuilt transmission, it was running rich. Then he talked to a friend of his and he said it was because of switching to MAF (EEC) and not having it hooked up correctly, that's why we need the harness adapter. So, from what I understand, Jimmi if getting the parts needed. From what I have read here, the MAF is better for daily driving and the SD is better for the track. There is obviously a lot of information out there on the conversion, the part that seems to bring about some debate is because of how Ford used to rate HP it seems confusing to many as to which system will give you the most HP. From what I have read the SD system will let you get away with more modifications than MAF. What my car came with is EFI and map sensor, which will not allow much as far as modifications. From what I understand happened is that Jimmi bought a EEC for MAF and my car was set up for SD and not wired right. Does that make sense? Thanks!
So what you're saying is:
You removed your stock EEC and installed one from a MAF (89-93) Mustang? If so purchase an EEC for an 87-88 Mustang with an Automatic transmission or an 88-91 Linconl Mark VII, as they are both Speed Density EEC-IVs. Remove the MAF EEC from you car and install the replcement Speed Density EEC. Your car should run fine after that.
DO NOT re-install the EEC that came with your car. IT WILL NOT work with the HO engine.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 04:23:23 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 04:23:23 PM
I just got off the phone with Jimmi. He now has a A9 EEC, and everything for the MAF set up except for the harness adapter which he is going to get today. He said I should have my car by tomorrow. I am in the back porch lapping the valves on my "71" Ford LTD convertible w/ 351W and should be putting it back together this weekend. The cool thing about this car is I have a lot of new parts left over from the Cougar 302 that will fit this car. Thanks! for all your help!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
Good luck with the Mas Air conversion, and let us know how it works out.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 04:51:46 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 04:51:46 PM
One last thing so you have your terminology correct when it comes to Fox fuel injection. MAF is mass air flow, SD is speed density, MAP is manafold absolute pressure (SD cars use this one), and BAP is barametric air pressure (mass air cars use this one). Now this is something that will mess with your mind...the MAP and BAP are the same sensor but used differently. The MAP configuration is where the sensor is connected to the manifold vacuum and the BAP is left open to atmosphere. So if you have a SD car and want to convert it to mass air just unplug the vacuum line from the MAP sensor to the manifold source. Cap the manifold port and leave the port on your now BAP open to atmosphere. I would suggest putting a fine mesh over the open port on the BAP so that small insects do not use it as a hotel but other than that probably one of the easiest parts of the conversion.
So, to convert over to mass air you need a stock mass air flow meter (MAF) & tubing from the air box to the throttle body, wiring harness for the MAF installation between the MAF and the EEC, 19 lb injectors, convert the MAP to BAP, and an A9L (standard trans only) or A9P (standard or auto trans) EEC. This is all if your existing SD motor came from an 85-88 Mustang or the Mark VII cars (cannot remember the years but it was mentioned earlier). If not then basically the only thing that is good from your SD motor is the short block minus the cam. I mean the heads would work but the E6 heads are horrible and only worthy of boat anchors.
Darren
So, to convert over to mass air you need a stock mass air flow meter (MAF) & tubing from the air box to the throttle body, wiring harness for the MAF installation between the MAF and the EEC, 19 lb injectors, convert the MAP to BAP, and an A9L (standard trans only) or A9P (standard or auto trans) EEC. This is all if your existing SD motor came from an 85-88 Mustang or the Mark VII cars (cannot remember the years but it was mentioned earlier). If not then basically the only thing that is good from your SD motor is the short block minus the cam. I mean the heads would work but the E6 heads are horrible and only worthy of boat anchors.
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Quote from: vinnietbird;412674
Good luck with the Mas Air conversion, and let us know how it works out.
Vinniebird,
It's been almost a year since my car has started the surgery. I can't wait to get it back!
Thunderjet302,
What I have learned about EEC and EEV I've learned on this forum. Believe me my car is in better hands with Jimmi than if I were to try the conversion. Maybe if I just bought a kit with lots of pictures, but they are a bit pricey.
Aerocoupe,
Great links! I got off the phone a second time with Jimmi and that is exactly what he was trying to explain to me. Would those #1 Thumper Heads be a good replacement for my set-up? The compression on my "87" HO engine I believe is 9.2 so I might have to watch and make sure the heads will be ok. That's why I was asking about weight on another post, aluminum will be lighter and I wonder about how much HP will I get from switching the heads? Is that right, about $600.00 for the pair? Should I also go for the guide plates?
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 07:20:24 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 07:20:24 PM
Looks like Jimmi just hooked me up with a posi 3:55 7.5" rear axle and shorty headers. He also ended up with a "93" Mustang computer instead of the A9. I need to know if it will work. I have a AOD trassmission with a shift kit and upgrade converter.
C3W
F3ZF-12A650-FA
EEC-1V
SFI-MA12A
On the Corral forum, it says that this computer has been reprogrammed for 24# (Cobra) injectors and I have 19# injectors. So, it look like a no go. But, if I understood him right the rear axle is off a "93" Mustang and it has horizontal shocks to stop it from bucking? He says we can jack the car up and switch axles in no time. This is all new to me (I don't have a clue what he's talking about). So, off I go to read some more.
C3W
F3ZF-12A650-FA
EEC-1V
SFI-MA12A
On the Corral forum, it says that this computer has been reprogrammed for 24# (Cobra) injectors and I have 19# injectors. So, it look like a no go. But, if I understood him right the rear axle is off a "93" Mustang and it has horizontal shocks to stop it from bucking? He says we can jack the car up and switch axles in no time. This is all new to me (I don't have a clue what he's talking about). So, off I go to read some more.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 07:54:42 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 07:54:42 PM
The Thumper heads are simply E7 castings (iron heads) that have been ported and stock size valves. My guess is that they pay a lot of attention to the area under the valve which is the bowl by pocketing it out and blending it back into the runners. They most likely port the intake runners and leave them a bit rough for better fuel/air mixture and then port and polish the exhaust side which is the more restrictive side anyhow. You will not see a lot of weight savings with these heads as they are still cast iron. Then you have the quandary of whether or not you want to run pedestal type rocker arms (stock stamped junk or real roller rockers) or have the heads machined to accept the stud mount rockers.
So if I was going to get these heads then I would opt for the stud mount and the valve springs which will cost you and additional $200 according to the Thumper website which would bring the cost up to $795 if you have another set of E7 heads to send them for the core charge plus shipping. You will also need to round up the ARP rocker arm studs (did not see that they came with studs) which usually run about $50-$75 for the set, and guide plates which are around $20 for a set. This will get you a ready to bolt on the short block set of heads for about $880 plus any shipping or taxes. A set of Edelbrock's or GT-40X's will run you about $1,000 new and you can find them all day long used for around $700 and they come with all the parts the Thumper heads are missing. Me, I would buy the used aluminum heads and go on about my business. From there you will need hardened push rods which are about $40 a set, a good set of roller rockers for about $160 a set, and a set of good poly lock rocker arm nuts for about $25 a set.
The short of it is good heads are not cheap but if you take your time and work the internet you can find some deals. If you send the lower intake off to Tom Moss (goes by TMoss on the Corral) and have him port it for $100 then the heads will really pay off. I would think that a 30 rwhp gain would not be unrealistic and from there every thing else you do to the motor (cam, exhaust, throttle body, etc) will take better advantage of the heads and make more power.
Darren
So if I was going to get these heads then I would opt for the stud mount and the valve springs which will cost you and additional $200 according to the Thumper website which would bring the cost up to $795 if you have another set of E7 heads to send them for the core charge plus shipping. You will also need to round up the ARP rocker arm studs (did not see that they came with studs) which usually run about $50-$75 for the set, and guide plates which are around $20 for a set. This will get you a ready to bolt on the short block set of heads for about $880 plus any shipping or taxes. A set of Edelbrock's or GT-40X's will run you about $1,000 new and you can find them all day long used for around $700 and they come with all the parts the Thumper heads are missing. Me, I would buy the used aluminum heads and go on about my business. From there you will need hardened push rods which are about $40 a set, a good set of roller rockers for about $160 a set, and a set of good poly lock rocker arm nuts for about $25 a set.
The short of it is good heads are not cheap but if you take your time and work the internet you can find some deals. If you send the lower intake off to Tom Moss (goes by TMoss on the Corral) and have him port it for $100 then the heads will really pay off. I would think that a 30 rwhp gain would not be unrealistic and from there every thing else you do to the motor (cam, exhaust, throttle body, etc) will take better advantage of the heads and make more power.
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 08:03:39 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 08:03:39 PM
Okay, as far as I know the EEC-IV cannot be reprogrammed for the 24 lb/hr injectors without a chip. So if it is an A9L or A9P and it has a chip then buy the processor and remove the chip and it will revert back to its factory tune. If the chip is one of the name brand one's you knocked a home run if someone in your area can dyno tune with it.
The "horizontal" shocks in the rear are quad shocks. They are a must with stock control arms but if you get a set of the CHE control arms (shameless plug) then you do not need them as they will take care of the piss poor band aides Ford installed for wheel hop known as quad shocks.
Darren
The "horizontal" shocks in the rear are quad shocks. They are a must with stock control arms but if you get a set of the CHE control arms (shameless plug) then you do not need them as they will take care of the piss poor band aides Ford installed for wheel hop known as quad shocks.
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 08:16:25 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 08:16:25 PM
No, I don't want to pay good money and end up with more cast iron. I have read good and bad about the GT-40X's and to be honest, I just want to buy a simple bolt on set-up. So, maybe Edelbrock will be the way I will go. Jimmi said that the rear axle is of a "93" 4 cylinder thunderbird. Does that sound right?
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 08:29:01 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 05, 2013, 08:29:01 PM
They did not make a 93 4 cylinder Thunderbird and even if it is a 6 cylinder the bolt pattern is metric on the wheels.
Darren
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 08:41:19 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 08:41:19 PM
If the rear is a 7.5 with "3.55" gears, I'm betting it's an earlier 7.5 Turbo Coupe rear with 3.45 gears.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 09:04:17 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 09:04:17 PM
Your right vinniebird! 3.45 gears, 7.5", Turbo coupe. He said it is four bolt just like mine. Is that right? The guy he bought it from said it might be a bit tall for hwy travel unless I had 16" wheels and that is exactly what I have.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 09:12:19 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on April 05, 2013, 09:12:19 PM
The rear in question came on a car with 15 inch wheels. It'll bolt in and work fine. An 8.8 would be better as they are much stronger than the 7.5. But if you have it, run with it. I used the same rear in my last Bird with no issues at all.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 09:48:43 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 05, 2013, 09:48:43 PM
From what I have read here, the 7.5 seems to hold up well for my needs. Even if I put some Edelbrock heads on it, I still won't be near 300 HP. So, I should be alright. I guess I might save a few lb's going from stock cast iron exhaust manifolds to shorty's (a little more weight off the front). I have also read that they don't give you much HP in return..maybe 3HP? That's ok, it all adds up. After all I have been driving a car with maybe 120HP for several years now. This should be different.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 05, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 05, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
Edelbrock heads are going to make more than 300 HP at the flywheel. I've got Edelbrock Performers on my Thunderbird and based on weight and 1/4 mile e.t. the engine is making around 330hp at the flywheel (about 265 at the wheels, assuming a 20%ish drivetrain loss). This is with a mild Comp roller cam and an unported GT40 intake. Porting the intake or swapping to a better flowing intake would boost power even more. Even with GT40X heads, stock HO cam, and a GT40 intake the engine shouldn't have a problem making over 300+hp at the flywheel.
I'm running the factory 7.5" rear in my Thunderbird with a 3.73 gear and a Traction-Lok. It's been fine so far. I haven't run sticky tires (drag radials or slicks) as I figure I would run the chance of breaking the differential. I do have a kind of rare 8.8" rear from an 88 Cougar XR7 in the garage for when I break the 7.5" rear ;).
I'm running the factory 7.5" rear in my Thunderbird with a 3.73 gear and a Traction-Lok. It's been fine so far. I haven't run sticky tires (drag radials or slicks) as I figure I would run the chance of breaking the differential. I do have a kind of rare 8.8" rear from an 88 Cougar XR7 in the garage for when I break the 7.5" rear ;).
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 06, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
Post by: 86cougar on April 06, 2013, 11:17:21 AM
Some one up stairs is sure watching over me! It seems like every thing I need has just dropped into my hands! I might have to wait a while before I get the heads on, I still need to go through emissions here before I take the car to my new house. Also, I'm sure the heads will void the 3 year warranty. I probably won't wait that long, but I do want to run the car as is for a while just to get a feel for it. I'm really excited about getting that rear axle put in! It's like a full package now. Going from 2.75 to 3.45 w/ (is mine traction lock?), that should really sharpen the nails on my Cat. I worked at one place 26+ years buying old cars to fix up when I retired, not realizing I would have forgotten half of what I thought I knew about cars and be half brain dead (my memory sucks). I'm about to turn "56" this month, this first year of retirement I've spent mostly working on this car. This is the first hot rod I have ever built. I never even imagined that I would be getting upwards of 300HP! Everyone tells me I'm building a "sleeper", the car looks plain Jane on the outside. The one think I will be watching is the ride, I might back off of the Poly. a little. I still have work to do when I move to the country, remove the emission stuff (not my new hi-flow cats), put the shorty's on, new heads, roller rockers, push rods, valve guide plates, studs, and I think that's about it. Then I start with the interior, I already have new gauges to put in.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 06, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 06, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
86cougar,
Sounds like you are knocking the dust of the memory and it is slowly coming back. One thing you have to remember about EEC-IV fuel injection is that it is not brain surgery like the newer cars. I like the simplicity and how easy it is to work on once you have messed with it especially if you car converting a car which forces you to understand the system. By the way, which wheels does the car have on it?
All,
These books are considered by many the bible of Ford EEC fuel injection. I have the one for the mass air cars and I would suggest that anyone here with fuel injection owns a copy for reference:
Speed Density
http://www.bentleypublishers.com//ford/repair-information/ford-fuel-injection-elec-eng-80-87.html
Mass Air
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/ford/repair-information/ford-fuel-injection-elec-eng-88-93.html
Darren
Sounds like you are knocking the dust of the memory and it is slowly coming back. One thing you have to remember about EEC-IV fuel injection is that it is not brain surgery like the newer cars. I like the simplicity and how easy it is to work on once you have messed with it especially if you car converting a car which forces you to understand the system. By the way, which wheels does the car have on it?
All,
These books are considered by many the bible of Ford EEC fuel injection. I have the one for the mass air cars and I would suggest that anyone here with fuel injection owns a copy for reference:
Speed Density
http://www.bentleypublishers.com//ford/repair-information/ford-fuel-injection-elec-eng-80-87.html
Mass Air
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/ford/repair-information/ford-fuel-injection-elec-eng-88-93.html
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 06, 2013, 02:24:07 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 06, 2013, 02:24:07 PM
Aerocoupe,
This is the wheels I have on my car. Working on this car from the ground up has made me learn a lot about this car. I started back in May and here in Arizona you pretty much have to crazy to do that, especially during monsoon season. Me, my creeper (no lift), work... get up, wipe off the sweat, work... get up, wipe off the sweat, all day long. I know most of the guys on here are probably thinking "so what's new?" 105-110 degrees is a little rough. Thanks! for the information!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: vinnietbird on April 06, 2013, 03:37:47 PM
Post by: vinnietbird on April 06, 2013, 03:37:47 PM
It's hot like that here. We're lucky though.....we only have 85-90% humidity to go along with it. LOL. Keep working. One step at a time.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 06, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 06, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
So I know the car is four lug but what diameter are those wheels? If they are 15's you can keep the sleeper look with some 15x7 ten holes. Use two for the front as is and then get the other two widened to 15x9 or 15x10 for the rear and stuff some 295/50/15's under it...its stock from the side but when you go by they scratch their head a little. There are a few places that do it but these guys in Dallas are used a lot and good:
http://www.weldcraftwheels.com/
http://www.wheelsamerica.com/?gclid=CPfN4pbxtrYCFQ3qnAod9CoA4w
You can buy blingin' wheels for about the same but a lot of guys like the old school sleeper look so this is how they get wider wheels.
Darren
http://www.weldcraftwheels.com/
http://www.wheelsamerica.com/?gclid=CPfN4pbxtrYCFQ3qnAod9CoA4w
You can buy blingin' wheels for about the same but a lot of guys like the old school sleeper look so this is how they get wider wheels.
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 06, 2013, 06:01:03 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 06, 2013, 06:01:03 PM
These are 16" X 8" (I think) wheels that I was told were for racing. Notice the way they are designed to keep the brakes cool. I really do like the stance for "83-88t-Bird Guy's" "83" T-bird. I never even thought about wider tires on the rear of my car. I just went outside to see if these would fit on my "71" LTD convertible, but it has five lug wheels on it. Then I could just by a new set for my Cougar. If my car's stance looks like "83-88t-Bird Guy's" T-bird that would be nice, but it wouldn't look like a sleeper. It would look mean. Darn! now you got me thinking again....
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 17, 2013, 02:32:57 PM
Post by: 86cougar on April 17, 2013, 02:32:57 PM
Well, I got my car back yesterday. Right now the car has the 3CW EEC-1V on it. I will probably go with the A9P. I took it over to emissions and
HC loaded was 39 (standard is 220),HC idle was 48 (standard is 220),
CO loaded was 00.00 (standard is 1.20), and CO idle was 00.00 (standard is 1.20)
It passed. The car runs like it has a vacuum leak at idle, so we figure it might be either the computer still learning, or I need to bump up the idle due to the under drive pulley set. The engine might have about 50 miles on it by now and I am about to go change the oil and filter being it was running very rich early in it's short life. I think I thru the kid at emissions off when he saw my duel exhaust, but what could he say with my new duel cats. aboard. The car sounds great, not too loud but present when you hit the gas. The transmission is smooth, but I don't really think it is ready to judge just yet. The engine is being pampered and is too new to judge it as well. I can tell I have more power than before. I can see the speedometer climbing, but not a hard pull feel (at most half throttle). It's deceptive.... I really don't know how to describe it, it's like it's more mature. I can't even describe the handling... I taken a few corners to get a feel of this new suspension, and there is no surprises. It still needs a front end alignment and if there is room for improvement, it's the tires. I took my girl for a ride last night. She loved the sound and her eyes got big when I pulled out in traffic a couple of times, then a smile would come to her face (kinda like me). I will post pictures after I wash the car. Thanks!
HC loaded was 39 (standard is 220),HC idle was 48 (standard is 220),
CO loaded was 00.00 (standard is 1.20), and CO idle was 00.00 (standard is 1.20)
It passed. The car runs like it has a vacuum leak at idle, so we figure it might be either the computer still learning, or I need to bump up the idle due to the under drive pulley set. The engine might have about 50 miles on it by now and I am about to go change the oil and filter being it was running very rich early in it's short life. I think I thru the kid at emissions off when he saw my duel exhaust, but what could he say with my new duel cats. aboard. The car sounds great, not too loud but present when you hit the gas. The transmission is smooth, but I don't really think it is ready to judge just yet. The engine is being pampered and is too new to judge it as well. I can tell I have more power than before. I can see the speedometer climbing, but not a hard pull feel (at most half throttle). It's deceptive.... I really don't know how to describe it, it's like it's more mature. I can't even describe the handling... I taken a few corners to get a feel of this new suspension, and there is no surprises. It still needs a front end alignment and if there is room for improvement, it's the tires. I took my girl for a ride last night. She loved the sound and her eyes got big when I pulled out in traffic a couple of times, then a smile would come to her face (kinda like me). I will post pictures after I wash the car. Thanks!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on April 22, 2013, 10:07:17 AM
Post by: 86cougar on April 22, 2013, 10:07:17 AM
The guy I bought the 3CW EEC-1V couldn't find an A9 for me so I have been using the 3CW and it seems to be running fine. At idle I will sometimes feel the cam and other times it smooths out. I figured out that on my first tank of gas I got 18.07 MPG. That's with a "87" Mustang HO engine, duel exhaust, under drive pulleys, stage #1 cam, and 19lb. injectors. I even let the car sit at idle and let it warm up for 5-10 minutes before I take it out. that's about .05 MPG better than my stock engine did.
Title: Pictures
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 01:15:36 PM
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 01:15:36 PM
I still need to take it in and have it detailed. Definitely not a show car, just my daily driver.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
One more.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: thunderjet302 on May 01, 2013, 02:58:36 PM
Post by: thunderjet302 on May 01, 2013, 02:58:36 PM
Looks good :).
I would try to find a stock air box if you could. The open cone filter is subject to fan wash (air blown into the filter from the fan) which can cause a idle surge or rough idle. The MAF has no idea what to do with the air pulses from the fan, causing the funny idle.
I would try to find a stock air box if you could. The open cone filter is subject to fan wash (air blown into the filter from the fan) which can cause a idle surge or rough idle. The MAF has no idea what to do with the air pulses from the fan, causing the funny idle.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 03:23:42 PM
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 03:23:42 PM
Quote from: thunderjet302;414294
Looks good :).
I would try to find a stock air box if you could. The open cone filter is subject to fan wash (air blown into the filter from the fan) which can cause a idle surge or rough idle. The MAF has no idea what to do with the air pulses from the fan, causing the funny idle.
Really? I would never have thought that. I still have the stock set up with a K&N filter. My first thought when I saw this set up was that it would not be a cold air set up because it would be getting heat from the engine. Living here in Arizona, I don't get much of a cold air set up even with the stock air box unless it's cool out side. I will work on implementing the stock air box and let you know if I notice any difference. I'm still a long way from finished with this car (interior, heating core, gauges, electric windows, and locks. So, any suggestions are appreciated! Thanks!
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 01, 2013, 03:47:46 PM
Post by: Aerocoupe on May 01, 2013, 03:47:46 PM
Or you could extend the air filter into the inner fender area and it will be a cold air kit. This one from BBK will give you and idea:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bbk-1557/overview/
All you need is the piece after the MAF and you are good to go. Underhood temps will get higher than the ambient air no matter where you live so putting the filter in the inner fender will help across the board.
Engine came out great!!
Darren
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bbk-1557/overview/
All you need is the piece after the MAF and you are good to go. Underhood temps will get higher than the ambient air no matter where you live so putting the filter in the inner fender will help across the board.
Engine came out great!!
Darren
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 06:37:02 PM
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 06:37:02 PM
Well, this is what I managed to come up with. I will need a flexible 4"x4" spacer to connect the two together. As you can see, I have metal tape on there for now. I also relocated my fan control box. Thanks for the idea! I will let you know how it works out.
Title: MAF conversion 5.0 HO
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 10:39:53 PM
Post by: 86cougar on May 01, 2013, 10:39:53 PM
I just took my car out for a ride and this set up made a big difference, it idles a lot smoother. I just turned the idle down about half a turn. I can still feel the cam, but not it doesn't stumble like it used to. The car seems to be more peppy all around also. I can't wait to see how it acts out on the freeway. I want to check my plugs out tomorrow and see what they can tell me. Thanks, again!